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"Proving" God - 4/9/2008 4:28:46 PM
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MLuttrell1027
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I was in a discussion in another forum where titled “God, does it exist?” I made a post using biblical references and got numerous posts back saying I can’t use the Bible to prove my point? I replied back If you are asking a believer to not use the Bible to prove God then you have to ask the unbeliever to use the Bible to not prove God. This was un-welcomed. Ha! Any advice on how to witness or defend your faith without the use of the Bible? Can it be done?
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RE: "Proving" God - 4/9/2008 4:48:49 PM
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CherishedbyGod
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I think that sounds like a no-won situation on that forum....
Sounds like they are pretty close-minded 
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~Whom have I in heaven but thee? And there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee. My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ~
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RE: "Proving" God - 4/9/2008 5:05:01 PM
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bob97
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Seems to me it’s impossible to prove the bible to someone unless they have faith, regardless if you use it or not.
Apparently Satan doesn't believe it.
Bob
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The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: "Proving" God - 4/9/2008 7:35:05 PM
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Ephesians4_32
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Without faith it is impossible to please Him. But God has made His existence evident. As a teen, my husband looked up at the starry sky on a winter night and simply knew that God exists. When God gives some people an inkling of His existence, they turn their backs on Him and run the other way.
Psalm 14
1The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Romans 1
17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
John 3
19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
God doesn't expect us to prove that He exists! But if someone tells you how to prove it to an unbeliever, I'll know what to say to my many unbelieving relatives.
Hebrews 11
6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
James 1
5If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
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RE: "Proving" God - 4/9/2008 9:59:00 PM
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Prairiehiker
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Atheist: Do you believe there is a God.
Christian: THe bible said He exist
Atheist: WHy do you believe in the bible?
Christian: Because I believe that God inspired the writings of the bible.
Do you see how this just doesn't make sense unless you already have a commitment to believe in God. It's a circular argument.
Have you tried the Intelligent Design arguments when discussing how you came to believe there is a God? I mean, these arguments don't use the bible to infer that there is a Creator who is personally involved with His creation. Of course, we as Christians believe that this Creator is God.
I agree that when you're debating non Christians, if you give a privileged position to any of the biblical writings, you already lost the debate. You have to approach them at their level and argue base on reason, instead of faith, for you to come across as a credible.
< Message edited by Prairiehiker -- 4/9/2008 10:13:38 PM >
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RE: "Proving" God - 4/9/2008 10:56:51 PM
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bob97
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I've decided that it is not up to me to convince non-believers that there is a God. It is my responsibly to tell them and show them about God and His Son Jesus Christ...I'll leave it up to God to persuade them.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: "Proving" God - 4/11/2008 11:33:27 AM
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Gray_Wanderer
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quote:
MLuttrell1027
I was in a discussion in another forum where titled “God, does it exist?” I made a post using biblical references and got numerous posts back saying I can’t use the Bible to prove my point? I replied back If you are asking a believer to not use the Bible to prove God then you have to ask the unbeliever to use the Bible to not prove God. This was un-welcomed. Ha! Any advice on how to witness or defend your faith without the use of the Bible? Can it be done?
Your response sounds valid to me, although looking in almost any area of science (from astrophysics to microbiology) there is evidence of design and therefore, of God. There is extra-Biblical evidence of God, the problem is that (like the Bible) a person who is dead set against believing something will ignore all evidence to the contrary.
quote:
bob97
I've decided that it is not up to me to convince non-believers that there is a God. It is my responsibly to tell them and show them about God and His Son Jesus Christ...I'll leave it up to God to persuade them.
Isn't this contrary to the Great Commission, which to my understanding is to at least to try to bring them to an understanding, to give them the option of "coming to faith"?
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"An optimist thinks this is as good as the world gets. A pessimist knows it." - Ambrose Bierce
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RE: "Proving" God - 4/13/2008 10:17:21 AM
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Szaftoo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Gray_Wanderer
quote:
bob97
I've decided that it is not up to me to convince non-believers that there is a God. It is my responsibly to tell them and show them about God and His Son Jesus Christ...I'll leave it up to God to persuade them.
Isn't this contrary to the Great Commission, which to my understanding is to at least to try to bring them to an understanding, to give them the option of "coming to faith"?
We are to share the good news and live a life that attracts unbelievers and then allow the Holy Spirit to convict.
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RE: "Proving" God - 4/13/2008 7:15:36 PM
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SD456
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Yes, there are ways to speak about the proof of God without using the bible.
I'm told that Lee Strobel does a great job in his book "a case for Christ." He proves to himself that christ was real and the bible is real without using the bible for the most part.
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RE: "Proving" God - 4/13/2008 10:46:26 PM
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Prairiehiker
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Lee Strobel makes compelling arguments for th existense of God. They're not proofs, but they will lead you to reasons why we believe that there is a God who's involved with us.
I like his books. Very easy reading. The Case for the Real Jesus is what I'm reading right now. This one really deepened by faith because of the Resurrection arguments.
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RE: "Proving" God - 4/14/2008 7:23:43 AM
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Doghouse
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If you take something on FAITH, you are accepting it without proof. That's why its called FAITH, and we don't refer to ourselves as practicing Christian FACT, but Christian FAITH.
Having said that, atheism is a statement of faith as well, as you can no more disprove God than prove Him.
So, arriving at the concession that what is being discussed is two different versions of faith and two faith statements, discussions with an atheist can be had on a level playing field. To me, this conversation usually evolves to a discussion of "faith in what?".
Do you believe with hope, desire, and passion? Or do you believe in despair, regret, and hopelessness?
You can also make the argument that people alone seem to be hard-wired for "faith". Why is this? If you are a Darwinist, explain the survival mechanisms involved in the evolution of this human trait (the ability to hope for and accept something without proof...) and its selection over an inferior trait (presumably the inability to hope and desire...) over the course of our development.
I believe that you arrive at a conclusion that looks something like having faith in something positive and meaningful can give one the perseverence to survive calamity. I think this can be argued to be by design, and not by coincidence.
All powerful discussions to have with atheists - without resorting to Scriptures.
What is the code of conduct for an atheist - lacking acknowledgement to some faith system? (Judaism, Taoism, Hinduism...)
If you know anything about John Nash and "game theory", you can cite this as a designed mechanism to give rise to a system that exists that is either by coincidence, or by design - and is too ordered to be by coincidence. Game theory states that the individual behaviors most beneficial to those in a group by each of the individuals in a group, is the coordinated behaviors which best serve the entire group, and not the individual behaviors that primarily serve the needs of the individuals, even in isolation or with a lack of communication within the group. Sort of a mathmatical "love thy neighbor" approach to complex negotiations or design of market regulation mechanisms.
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 4/14/2008 7:31:03 AM >
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John 14 - "Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves...whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father."
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RE: "Proving" God - 4/29/2008 3:38:33 PM
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BibleBased
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Present the good news/ gospel and those who accept it by the power of the Holy Spirit will move towards the light - represented by your words, the bible, the local church/ christian community. Those who mock, make trouble, speak against you, move away from you presenting God's truth to them will be lost and live in darkness.
Actually i've found it is a good test on line and in real life, whether someone is 'actually' a believer or not. Starting talking about the bible to them, add in quotes and if they don't want the conversation or say i don't believe that ........ well at least doubts must occur. Popular churches without scripture are not churches of our Lord. I went to one that had services nearly 2 hours long - only 2 verses of scripture. They had so many people they didn't fit in the church, needed to use a local school. But without the bible and God's teaching it might as well have been a snooker or football club! Love BibleBased.
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RE: "Proving" God - 5/6/2008 9:35:36 AM
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MusicianDad
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
If you take something on FAITH, you are accepting it without proof. That's why its called FAITH, and we don't refer to ourselves as practicing Christian FACT, but Christian FAITH.
I disagree. Christianity is not blind faith. All of nature shows the intellect of the Creator. It gives evidence of intelligent design. The prophecy of the Bible (ex. Daniel) is evidence of Gods revelation. The witness of the Apostles in the face of death is evidence of the truth claims of Christianity. The list goes on. It takes faith to be a Christian, but the evidence is also on our side.
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RE: "Proving" God - 5/6/2008 4:48:31 PM
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frankman
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In the real world our lifestyle is the only Bible the world will ever read. So how we live our lives as a real living testimony of Jesus before them will make a difference. Also praying for unbelievers is very important.
On the net unbelievers prefer that we not use Scripture verses because they know there is a power in the Word that they can`t defend against. They can`t see our lives on the net, therefore it is only the Bible that could convict them of their sins and the need for a Savior. That is why Paul teaches us in Eph. 6:17 to arm ourselves with "the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God." Also without the WORD and the SPIRIT we can not convince anybody that God exists, that they are sinners and that they need Christ. This convincing is not our job but the work of the Holy Spirit. using our posts and the Bible as a tool. So whether the unbeliever likes it our not, if your online and your not willing to pray for the person your sharing with, or your not willing to share with them Scripture when the door opens up, your in a debate with the other person that may be as futile as building a relationship based on weather talk. However buiding a relationship is important, but if your goal is to win them for Christ, something as powerful as Scripture will have to come into play.
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"The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God stands forever." Isa. 40:8 Greetings- Frankman
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RE: "Proving" God - 5/8/2008 6:40:26 AM
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hammurabi
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quote:
I was in a discussion in another forum where titled “God, does it exist?” I made a post using biblical references and got numerous posts back saying I can’t use the Bible to prove my point? I replied back If you are asking a believer to not use the Bible to prove God then you have to ask the unbeliever to use the Bible to not prove God. This was un-welcomed. Ha! Any advice on how to witness or defend your faith without the use of the Bible? Can it be done?
Even if the Bible were inerrant, free of all contradiction, perfectly contiguous with our reconstructions of history (excepting the supernatural or mythical discourse it contains), it doesn't follow that God exists; it follows that the Bible is an accurate recording.
Using the Bible to prove the existence of God is a circular argument; as it using the argument that belief in God constitutes proof of God's existence for any subject other than that who has the experience.
However, if you claim that Biblical inerrancy is a precondition of any belief in God, or if your claim is structured: "God's existence is contingent upon the Bible's inerrancy," then the non-believer can use your claim to provisionally disprove the existence of God. Of course, your argument is built upon false claims to begin with, so you're endlessly circling and kicking around a massive linguistic mess.
quote:
"If you are asking a believer to not use the Bible to prove God then you have to ask the unbeliever to use the Bible to not prove God."
Why does this follow? You're saying that "If a believer cannot use the Bible to prove God's existence, then the nonbeliever must use the Bible to disprove God's existence." You can exclude the Bible from the debate by any number of means. Could you explain this?
If you were able to argue something such as "If condition X is true (Biblical claim), then it necessitates the existence of Y (God)," you might be able to construe God's existence from Biblical claims, but I highly doubt any such argument exists or could exist.
There's a few ways to witness your faith. Obviously, praxis. Less obviously, you have to carefully construct arguments which (1) allow you to discuss supernatural entities; (2) predicate properties of these entities; (3) form adequate connections between the logic of language and the existentiality of the entities and their respective ontologies; (4) use rules of inference and demonstration to show how the supernatural entity would, could, exist. You could always start with Aquinas, who essentially does this; Boethius does too. Kant restricts our abilities to discuss metaphysical abilities; Wittgenstein tells us to shut up, the Neo-Thomists...You get the point
< Message edited by hammurabi -- 5/8/2008 6:48:19 AM >
_____________________________
"A man is morally free when, in full possession of his living humanity, he judges the world, and judges other men, with uncompromising sincerity." - George Santayana
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