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:: Slain in the Spirit - 8/8/2007 8:34:14 AM
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earthless
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When it comes to the topic of "Slain in the Spirit", there is only one side to this issue. Nowhere do you find the phenomenon of slain in the spirit in the ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ.
The phenomenon itself is explained by natural processes, it's found in the world of the occult. If you look at Scripture - Scripture teaches you to be alert and sober minded because the adversary, Satan, prowls around like a lion seeking whom he might devour.
Christians are not supposed to be in an altered state of consciousness, you're supposed to be alert and sober minded. So 'slain in the spirit' is a phenomenon that you will find in the world of the occult. But not in a Christian world view.
You can go to any stage hypnotist in Vegas, any day of the week, and have the exact same thing happen to you (slain in the spirit). In fact, this is explained in social-psychological manipulation. Benny Hinn for example, he's maybe a C+/B- grade hypnotist. He's not a great hypnotist, but he is good enough for the audience that he is working with.
What is applied is auto-suggestion, he's working people into an altered-state of consciousness, he uses peer pressure, he is using people's expectations and he is using the subtle power of suggestion which can make black appear white. He is using repetitive music and words. It can obscure reality and enshrine absurdity.
When you are hyper-suggestible, you can be made to believe anything that enters your mind. No matter how mundane or outlandish. It is really not something that ought to be applied within the context of a Christian world view.
A lot of people who have never thought critically about this phenomenon in light of Scripture. I have taken the passages that people have used to support this, as a pretext for slain in the spirit. None of the passages make the point.
There is the passage where the Pharisee's are after Jesus and they then fall backwards - that is a classic case in point. What you find in Scripture is the enemies of Christ falling backwards. You don't find the friends of Christ falling backwards. The friends of Christ fall forward in adoration, they don't fall backwards as the phenomenon as slain in the spirit would have you believe you do.
And the reason you fall backwards, is because that is an easure function to manipulate, particularly if you have catchers. As opposed to falling forward. There is an absolute absence of catchers in Scripture as well. Why would you need catchers at all?! If this was a sovereign work of God.
Looking at the listing of gifts in Corinthians, being slain in the spirit is not even listed. You don't find it anywhere in Scripture.
The only place I might point you to is Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5), they were slain in the Spirit, but I don't think people will be lining up for that anytime soon.
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/8/2007 9:03:28 AM
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facedown
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earthless, while i may not disagree with you at some level here, your primal points upholding your view are in major need of re:work.
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/8/2007 9:28:05 AM
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earthless
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So then we agree more than you probably know.
As I pointed out in my thread opener - God's movement in that area is one thing and yes we saw that with John on the island of Patmos. Though we can't say if he was knocked down in the fashion seen in Word of Faith churches today. But we also know that was an extraordinary event and one needed for the completion of His Word.
If a move of that sort was done today (of course not to that same extent as with John) - it would not be anything near the "slain in the Spirit" moves we see occurring in many circles today. Which is why I mentioned catchers and how that is completely asinine if these incidents were genuine moves of the Holy Spirit.
Returning back to the first point you made - in Scripture we see people falling forwards and those that were int he style and custom of circles today were the enemies of Christ and or those that God did away with for lying to the Holy Spirit.
< Message edited by earthless -- 8/8/2007 9:53:05 AM >
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/8/2007 10:04:16 AM
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GraceyGirl
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What the heck does falling foward or backward or spinnning in circles have to do with whether John was in this right mind or not? LOL
Earthless. . .quit trying so hard.
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/8/2007 10:17:40 AM
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facedown
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earthless. i will attempt. and remember - this response is not to the conclusion, but the 'facts' that have been presented as the reason for your conclusion.
quote:
Nowhere do you find the phenomenon of slain in the spirit in the ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ. there are many things not found in the ministry of the lord jesus christ. that isn't evidence that something is contrary to the same.
quote:
it's found in the world of the occult christmas trees, easter eggs, and the like are found in the world of the occult.
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Christians are not supposed to be in an altered state of consciousness many folks throughout scripture have been in an "altered state of consiousness".
quote:
He's not a great hypnotist, but he is good enough for the audience that he is working with. same thing could be said of any speaker - including preachers who use fear and manipulation to get "converts" (as clearly seen in the classic "turn or burn" sermons).
quote:
A lot of people who have never thought critically about this phenomenon in light of Scripture if something takes "critical thinking" - then it's not overtly clear. same thing could be said in light of gender equality, history of the earth, and numerous other topics as well, btw.
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What you find in Scripture is the enemies of Christ falling backwards and this happens how many times....? can one use a single narrative to prove or disproove anything?
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The friends of Christ fall forward in adoration does direction equate "friend" or "foe"? i don't think that could reasonably be used as a line of defense or attack here.
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There is an absolute absence of catchers in Scripture as well. again, how much is in scripture? t.v.'s are not there. this is what they might call a "straw man" me thinks.
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Why would you need catchers at all?! If this was a sovereign work of God. this is very unreasonable. why should we pray, if there is a sovereign god? why work? why eat? why build storehouses? why is there sin? why wasn't creation "good" enough? why wear a seatbelt? why wear safety goggles when grinding metals? in my observation "why" used in all of these instances, is very futile.
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/8/2007 11:00:45 AM
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SirWintery
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When I have seen a nice church lady reach down and grasp her skirt so she will maintain a decent appearance as she leans back to the catchers, I would say her state of mind was such that being "slain" was optional.
Same thing about looking back to make sure the catchers are ready.
At one meeting that involved the former pastor of the famous Brownsville church while it was in its heyday, the wife of one of the ministers I knew snagged me to catch an elderly lady he was praying for. I'm glad she didn't fall.
I think a lot of people don't have the strength of neck to keep standing if their forehead is pushed back and down. I went to a prayer line once (different meeting and church) to be slain, and try though he would by pressing my head I did not fall. Before me they were all dropping right away. After me at least one other guy didn't go down. (you may have guessed, I'm somewhat thick-necked!) :) If you think you are supposed to go the carpet, you will.
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/8/2007 11:01:40 AM
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OntheMtn
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Earthless,
Could you give a definition of "Slain in the Spirit?'
I don't completely disagree with you. And I do believe some speakers use this negatively, push people over, etc.
But, I also believe God, the Holy Spirit, will come upon people, a "filling of the Holy Spirit" if you will. You read about that in scripture. Have you ever had a conversation with an unbeliever or believer and you found yourself speaking things you were not thinking, or did not know? That was the Holy Spirit using you for the Kingdom.
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/8/2007 11:53:05 AM
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Kat_D
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quote:
You can go to any stage hypnotist in Vegas, any day of the week, and have the exact same thing happen to you (slain in the spirit). In fact, this is explained in social-psychological manipulation. Benny Hinn for example, he's maybe a C+/B- grade hypnotist. He's not a great hypnotist, but he is good enough for the audience that he is working with.
My pastor's daughter went to a Benny Hinn "show" to see for herself what happens there. She was highly skeptical and felt there was no way in the world she would ever become a "victim" of his manipulation. She said Benny walked by her row in the audience, turned and blew towards them and the entire row fell down including her. She said she had the distinct impression his "power" was not from God...scared her to death!
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"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/8/2007 1:32:17 PM
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earthless
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To sum up all of the questions that have been asked I will give a bit more detail into this topic. When I talk about the idea of being “slain in the Spirit” it is when a minister lays hands on someone, and that person collapses to the floor, supposedly being overcome in the power of the Spirit.
Someone brought up John as seen in Revelation 1:17 and others that I have spoken to in person have brought up passages that talk about people falling upon their faces such as in Daniel 8:17-18 or Ezekiel 1:28. But there are many contrasts the biblical "falling on one's face" and the practice of being "slain in the Spirit."
Firstly, the biblical falling down was a result of a person's reaction to what he saw in a vision or that was beyond ordinary happenings, such as at the transfiguration of Christ (Matthew 17:6). In the unbiblical practice of "being slain," the person responds to another’s "touch" or to the motion of the speaker's arm.
Secondly, the biblical instances were few and far between, such that they occurred only rarely in the lives of but a few. In the "being slain" phenomenon, falling down is a weekly event in their churches and an experience that happens to many.
Thirdly, in the biblical instances, the people fall upon their faces in awe at either what they see or Whom they see. In the "slain in the Spirit" counterfeit, they fall backwards, either in response to the wave of the speaker's arm or as a result of a church leader's touch (or push in some cases).
Here's the kicker, I am not saying that all examples of being "slain in the Spirit" are fakes or responses to a touch or push. Many sincere people experience an energy or a force that causes them to fall back. However, we find no Biblical basis for this concept. Yes, there may be some energy or force involved, but if so, it is very likely not of God, and not the result of the working of the Holy Spirit.
It is unfortunate that people look to such bizarre counterfeits that produce no spiritual fruit, rather than pursuing the practical fruit which the Spirit gives us for the purpose of glorifying Christ with our lives (Galatians 5:22-23). Being filled with the Spirit is not evidenced by such counterfeits, but by a life that overflows with the Word of God such that the Word spills over in spiritual songs and thanksgiving to God.
My prayer is that as believers Ephesians 5:18-20 and Galatians 5:22-23 picture our lives. May we get into the Word and get the Word into us.
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/8/2007 1:46:05 PM
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colliefan
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Isn't self-control an element of the fruit of the spirit? Also, what are the results of such an ecounter? People have had a similar experience at a rock concert. Look up the origin of the word mesmerized and you will see what is at the root of such happenings.
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/8/2007 1:57:32 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
Isn't self-control an element of the fruit of the spirit? Also, what are the results of such an ecounter? People have had a similar experience at a rock concert. Look up the origin of the word mesmerized and you will see what is at the root of such happenings.
Let's take it a bit more solid than a rock concert. The practice of "slain in the spirit", barking and clucking like animals, uncontrollable laughter, jerking uncontrollably for hours on end, slithering on the floor like snakes, and a multitude of other things I could list...
These are all practices that have been around/seen in New Age/Hindu/Occult circles since the beginning of time.
Let us not forget that Satan roams the earth seeking whom to devour and the greatest place for his activities to muddle the water is inside the church walls and not necessarily on a street corner.
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/8/2007 2:36:21 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GraceyGirl
What the heck does falling foward or backward or spinnning in circles have to do with whether John was in this right mind or not? LOL
Some folks that have experienced this have used this Scripture to describe thier experienve;
(Rev 1:17) And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
They say the presence of the Holy Spirit was so strong that they could not stand.
Thanks
RC
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/8/2007 3:01:56 PM
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GraceyGirl
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Yeah, but that doesn't mean that if someone lays on their back they're somehow "less." Earthless was suggesting that face down in the prone position is the ONLY position of true experience.
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All I want is You ~All I crave is You
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/8/2007 3:28:28 PM
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earthless
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Graceygirl - I hope my last long post in here as clarified that and other things of what I am saying.
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/8/2007 3:44:37 PM
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OntheMtn
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For those taking part in this thread...
Have you ever been "slain in the spirit?"
Earthless,
Correct me if I am wrong...You are saying these type of falling over "slain in the spirit" episode are not found in the Bible and therefore are not real experiences of the Holy Spirit.
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/8/2007 4:19:34 PM
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Kat_D
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In attempting to ascertain whether this stuff is real or counterfit, I always ask myself, "Who's getting the attention?" We all know when Benny, and others like him, do their theatrics and the bodies hit the floor, all the attention is on...guess who?
If it is real, it seems to me that it would result from a private, personal and profound state of reverence, awe and worship with no focus on self or another. You would be caught up by an overwhelming realization of His glory and grace and, repeat after me, the focus would be totally and completely on the Lord, Jesus Chist.
DISCLAIMER: I have never been slain in the spirit nor have I ever seen anyone slain in the spirit in the way I described as "real."
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"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/8/2007 4:39:25 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: OntheMtn
For those taking part in this thread...
Have you ever been "slain in the spirit?"
Earthless,
Correct me if I am wrong...You are saying these type of falling over "slain in the spirit" episode are not found in the Bible and therefore are not real experiences of the Holy Spirit.
I am not tying to come off as rude, please do know that. But it would be fair to say that I have more than explained what I am saying. Please read my two long posts in this thread.
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/8/2007 4:44:43 PM
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OntheMtn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
I am not tying to come off as rude, please do know that. But it would be fair to say that I have more than explained what I am saying. Please read my two long posts in this thread.
I don't know that, since you have to explain you are not being rude.
A simply yes or no would have not been rude.
You like playing the martyr, don't you?
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/8/2007 4:49:36 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: OntheMtn
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
I am not tying to come off as rude, please do know that. But it would be fair to say that I have more than explained what I am saying. Please read my two long posts in this thread.
I don't know that, since you have to explain you are not being rude.
A simply yes or no would have not been rude.
You like playing the martyr, don't you?
Friend, I know you wouldn't know that so I immediately came and told you that I was not trying to be rude with my proceeding statement of "But it would be fair to say that I have more than explained what I am saying. Please read my two long posts in this thread."
Instead of trying to attack me with "you like playing the martyr..." why not take that time to read what I posted if you're interested in asking questions of me. Thank you. My posts (and the answers to your questions) are there above for everyone and anyone to read.
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/8/2007 5:00:18 PM
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Kat_D
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quote:
ORIGINAL: OntheMtn
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
I am not tying to come off as rude, please do know that. But it would be fair to say that I have more than explained what I am saying. Please read my two long posts in this thread.
I don't know that, since you have to explain you are not being rude.
A simply yes or no would have not been rude.
You like playing the martyr, don't you?
Simmer down, Skippy! That's not nice. I didn't notice any rudeness and I won't even comment on your other observation. Let's try to get back to the subject...I believe it was being slain in the spirit.
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/8/2007 5:21:35 PM
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CherishedbyGod
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I need to arise in the power of the Holy Spirit; not be slain.
I remember hearing a pastor teach once (C.C., Kat_D) that he never saw Jesus pushing anyone down. Jesus was always lifting people up when He was here on earth 
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/8/2007 7:06:50 PM
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FurGodWurLivin
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Okay, allow me to say that talking about this is one of the most poinltess discussions ever. First off, Jesus had several times when people fell at his feet as if dead. St. John did, St Paul did, the guards at the tomb did, several people that Jesus healed of Demons did... basically, this is a pointless discussion because the actual "phenomena" if you will, doesn't mean much of anything. Are there preachers that push people over? Yes. However, unless you have actually felt an overshadowing power of the spirit, nothing that anyone says about it makes much sense. As the saying goes, if there is a counterfit, there must be a genuine. If the counterfit is a pastor pushing over people in the prayer line, then there must be a real of God resting on people as well. I think the real question is, why do people do it? If it was hypnosis, the it would happen every time the preacher prayed for anyone. If it is a spiritual thing, then it would be real hit-and-miss about when it happened for real. If it is something we just think we should do, then it would probably be 50-50 if it happened or not. Since none of the above are completely true, then a combination of the three must be. There are some preachers who, I'm sure, get into spooky hypnosis kind of stuff. I'm sure there are some people who get laid out at church because they think they are supposed to. And I know beyond doubt that there is a real spiritual occurance that is commonly referred to as being "slain in the spirit". Jonathan Edwards wrote about it happening during the Great Awakening in a book, he said that people who would riding into a town in carriages, start shaking, and fall out on the side of the road. Whitefield, Finney, and Wesley all had similar accounts. I may not be all THAT up on my history, but I believe the Great Awakening happened a great deal before the "charismania" movement in the 80's. General rule of thumb, if you have three options and none are all that, look for a fouth in the middle of the three.
Adam
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/9/2007 5:51:21 AM
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Ezra
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quote:
First off, Jesus had several times when people fell at his feet as if dead. St. John did, St Paul did, the guards at the tomb did, several people that Jesus healed of Demons did
There is no comparison between what is described in Scripture in the presence of Christ, and what we seen today as the phenomenon called "Being Slain in the Spirit".
1. The real issue is that even when the apostles ministered to others and exercised sign gifts, there is not a single recorded incidence of any such happening in the presence of the apostles.
2. Falling backwards while others stand around to catch you is the opposite of falling forwards at the feet of Christ.
3. Christ and the apostles raised up people, today's charlatans cast them down.
Given the doctrine and practice of the men who engage in this, one would be wise to totally avoid these shenanigans.
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