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RE: 1 Cornthians 3:17 and Suicide - 9/14/2008 3:47:40 PM
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PastorPatricia
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I haven't done an indepth study on this verse but my view of suicide is that if you're desperate enough to take you're own life you're really not responsible for your actions. Have you ever suffered from depression - it totally destroys rational thinking and if your so depressed that you kill yourself then you really cannot be held responsible for your actions and God being compassionate and loving does not hold you responsible for this action. Maybe I'm dead wrong but this is how I see it.
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RE: 1 Cornthians 3:17 and Suicide - 9/14/2008 5:17:38 PM
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dyluck
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Hi real58
Thanks for your input! This is a touchy subject, generally people that know someone who called themselves a Christian, generally become hostile if you say that those people have a good chance of not entering heaven.
Ok here is more of my argument. Our world is the way it is because of sin. All the depression, iniquity, heartache and pain is a direct result of sin. Would you not agree?
Without sin, there is no pain.
Someone who is depressed for instance may not be depressed necissairly because of their own sin, but the sin around them or possibly from their family..
Now one of my points here it says in Matthew 7:19-23 "19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'"
Well this passage gives us two things: Thing 1 = It says EVERY tree, not some trees, or specific trees. Then it says you MUST bear fruit - (Joy, peace, love etc.) otherwise Jesus himself said "IS" not "maybe" will cut the tree down and thrown in the fire! This shows us that a Christian MUST be active. Now, i have been depressed before, i wouldn't say I have been bi-polar or anything like that, and really only God will Judge. But we do know this
God is perfect no? Therefore all his characteristics like love, mercy, grace, wrath and justice is perfect.
Well with perfect Justice, we see God's separation from mankind that did not follow him since the beginning when they knew the truth in Romans 1:18-32. Basicly there was not "mercy" per-say to those who in their generations separated from God and worshiped idols.. Even to this day, unchurched people in the reaches of the world still suffer eternal concequences of their ancetors (as stated in Romans 1). I could go on forever about that.
Thing 2 = Well when Jesus says "evildoers" other translations is "practicing iniquity or sin" or "lawlessness"
Unfortunatly murder is a big no no and how can you repent of murder if you go out murdering yourself? Even in a state of dillusion and depression, God has the power over that, if that person is under the will of God!
Lastly Revelation 3:5 "He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my father." Well, looks like a name can be removed from the book of life. A powerful statement "He who overcomes" Those who are heavy laiden and weary. Long suffering. I would not say those that overcome longsuffering by ending their lives early is not in the will of God.
Matthew 11:28 "Come to me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest."
Verse 29"Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS."
30"For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."
Someone who ends their lives early have not submitted their lives unto Him! Let God judge those who may have not been in a state of mind.. But i submit this... Human by core nature are self preservers. Even those who do not have much mentally, will by default preserve self. Therefore one who kills himself, knows exactly what he is doing, otherwise he would not know its concequence, which primarily would be to escape.
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RE: 1 Cornthians 3:17 and Suicide - 9/14/2008 8:56:45 PM
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Liveloved
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In the first place, I Cor 3:17 needs to be understood in context. It is speaking to those who are building. . . and that is primarily pastors and teachers (such as Apollos and Paul).
This verse is speaking to the destroying work pastors and teachers can do to young believers. Just as a millstone tied around that neck is the consequence of those who destroy the young in faith, this verse speaks to the destruction of the temple of God, a young one just beginning to grow in the faith.
Woe! We need to listen and hear what God is truly saying. We need to make sure we are not destroying, undermining, and turning away those who are making baby steps in the faith. God will destroy THOSE who do this.
It is not talking about suicide. This is talking about destructive, prideful leadership that thinks of self first and perhaps only.
I am sorry to sound so harsh but I think God's word is much stronger and harsher. He says He will destroy those who do this. We must listen and take this to heart.
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RE: 1 Cornthians 3:17 and Suicide - 9/15/2008 12:10:02 AM
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dyluck
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Liveloved i respect your hardness... we need it; however, you clearly didn't take the time to read my initial question... I am asking for brothers and sisters to help CLARIFY that view and help me to understand it. please read linked blog too. The versus in my second statement had nothing to do with 1 Cornthians 3:17 and I posted that because the real58 simply gave an opinion about suicide.
humbly, please read before making judgments, thanks.
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RE: 1 Cornthians 3:17 and Suicide - 9/15/2008 2:40:02 AM
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Liveloved
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quote:
This is a blog that my old pastor posted regarding this topic when I brought up my view on Suicide.
http://jamesmaclellan.blogspot.com/2008/03/does-1-corinthians-317-teach-that.html
I wanted to know if there is someone else who has done an in depth study on this.
I believe this verse is saying that if you kill yourself you will go to Hell. His view is significantly different.
God Bless!
This is the OP I responded to. The subject is ICor 3:17 and Suicide. And you stated that you think this verse is saying "that if you kill yourself you will go to Hell."
That's what I was responding to. . . the verse and its context. Sorry.
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RE: 1 Cornthians 3:17 and Suicide - 9/15/2008 10:12:01 AM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dyluck
...Someone who ends their lives early have not submitted their lives unto Him! Let God judge those who may have not been in a state of mind.. But i submit this... Human by core nature are self preservers. Even those who do not have much mentally, will by default preserve self. Therefore one who kills himself, knows exactly what he is doing, otherwise he would not know its concequence, which primarily would be to escape.
Do you consider the sin of suicide to be unforgivable? Do you believe that believers who die with unconfessed sin (any sin) go to hell?
And I agree with your pastor that the 1 Cor. 3:17 verse is addressing the plurality of believers as the Temple of God, not the individual believer. God is busy building us all up into that Temple. It's evident throughout the Corinthian letters that false teachers had infiltrated the Corinthian Church and were leading them astray and in effect tearing down the Temple of God, not building them up into the house of God that would survive the fires of judgement.
False teachings build people up into a spiritual house that can not survive the fires of judgement because it is not made of the imperishable material of faith like gold and precious jewels, but rather the works of hay and stubble and wood. My personal opinion is that Paul is warning against the work of the Judaizers among them (whom he calls 'super apostles', eloquent and persuasive in their deceitful message, masqurading as angels of light). It seems they were his greatest enemy everywhere he went in his missionary work in the world.
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: 1 Cornthians 3:17 and Suicide - 9/15/2008 3:40:44 PM
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LastofAll
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It is the wise and prudent(ie: scholars) who first subscribe the word defile as being the word destroy, however, there are several words which mean defile, all of which end in the word destroy, or destruction. How I have received this verse through the Spirit of Truth, is as a continual course of serving sin; that is, defile means(for me), corrupts or contaminates with sin. This is what grieves the Spirit of God, and what leads it to destruction. As for self-murder, we have the examples of king Saul and Judas, which were both condemned. Nevertheless, their reason´s were different from one filled with grief and misery for a long period of time, which I myself have been in the midst of now for several years. When overwhelmed, I always look at the book of Job, which gives us a great example of grief and misery, yet also of an unmovable trust and hope. Likewise, in chapter three of Lamentations, Jeremiah was exceedingly overwhelmed with grief, yet he said: “And thou hast removed my soul far off from peace: I forgat prosperity. And I said, My strength and my hope is perished from the Lord: Remembering mine affliction and my misery…. My soul hath them still in remembrance, and is humbled in me. This I recall to my mind, therefore have I hope. It is of the Lord´s mercies that we are not consumed, because His compassions fail not. They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness, The Lord is my portion, saith my soul; therefore will I hope in Him. The Lord is good unto them that wait for Him. It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the Lord.” “I called upon thy Name, O Lord, out of the low dungeon. Thou hast heard my voice: hide not thine ear at my breathing, at my cry. Thou drewest near in the day that I called upon thee: Thou saidst, Fear not.”
(Lamentations.3:17-26 & 55-57)
We must keep the hope which Christ promised us, that He will give us rest.
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RE: 1 Cornthians 3:17 and Suicide - 9/15/2008 4:20:49 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
Hi liveloved
I said "I believe"
I apologize, the statement isn't clear. I guess I assumed that one would pick out that I want clarification.
So, you sound like you know quite about about this particular passage, what are your reasoning... I mean In 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 it states clearly that your body is the temple of the holy spirit.
In the blog it refers to the following: "The ƒËƒ¿ƒÍϚ (naos) is the Most Holy Place in which God uniquely dwelt in the O.T. tabernacle and temple." As being in context that naos, God's temple, over the church as a whole.
When the curtian ripped on the death of Christ on the Cross, wasn't that not a symbol of the separation of God from Man Broken and our bodies are now the Temple of the Holy spirit?
It was used here in this verse and the Temple in regards to naos. Not a building. I don't see group connection here.
Can you help clarify.
God bless!
I was just speaking of I Cor 3:17. . . and the context is the planting and watering, the building of God's church. Certainly verse 17 clearly states that we are the temple of God. . . which is why we need to see others that way as well. If I regard you as a temple of the living God I am going to treat you with the kind of love and respect that God is deserving of. And I am going to do all to prosper your love of Jesus.
John 13:20 is another verse that has a similar meaning. Jesus said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who receives whomever I send receives Me; and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me."
If only we were this aware to know that the person we are dealing with was sent by God and we have a tremendous responsibility. We can treat them as Christ. Or we can destroy them.
Yes, we are God's temple if we are His. And we need to care for our temple as well. You ask about suicide.
My spiritual mentor took his life. This man was the father of my best friend growing up. He was a godly man who prayed for me whenever I was in their home. But he struggled with depression. And for one moment he believed that God's hand was too short, that God's power was not enough. Will this man be separated from God? No way. God knows his heart and his heart belonged to God.
When I attended his funeral I was curious as to how his church and family would regard his death. His family is my family (his mother and my grandmother were sisters) and many are pastors and missionaries. I thought the roof lifted off the church as all of those gathered praised and sang to the Lord.
God says He will never leave or forsake those who are His. I believe Him.
Bless you back. 
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RE: 1 Cornthians 3:17 and Suicide - 9/15/2008 7:59:14 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dyluck
Without sin, there is no pain.
This may have been the case before the fall, but I don't see any biblical justification for this view. Pain is a blessing and a warning against injury. Therefore, it is possible that Adam had pain as a wrning against injury. The idea that all pain is related to sin is a teaching of Mary Baker Eddy(christian science).
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: 1 Cornthians 3:17 and Suicide - 9/15/2008 11:45:24 PM
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dyluck
Posts: 155
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: dyluck
Without sin, there is no pain.
This may have been the case before the fall, but I don't see any biblical justification for this view. Pain is a blessing and a warning against injury. Therefore, it is possible that Adam had pain as a wrning against injury. The idea that all pain is related to sin is a teaching of Mary Baker Eddy(christian science).
I am rather fired up about this one. But hey.. gets my nose in the word and I like that.
Umm, wow pain is a really blessing under the wrath of God in hell hey...??
I understand that a Christian must go through pain that God has to bring us to brokenness over our sin. We must go through trials. Why?? because he wants to us OVERCOME SIN!
God commends those who overcome are welcomed into life.
Revelation 2:7
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.
1 John 5:4
for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.
Someone who commits suicide, did they overcome?
Now back to your comment:
I understand the doctrine of the fall of Satan.
However.... THE FALL OF SATAN BROUGHT SIN INTO THE WORLD!
Adam was not in death until he sinned, we know that.
Now you say you don't see biblical justification for my view on sin/pain yet, you give me no biblical justification it isn't a result of sin. You say "pain is a blessing and a warning against injury" when as far as I got from the bible pain and death is a CURSE.
Romans 5:12 says, "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned."
Now im not saying pain is a result of some original sin... I am saying with sin, pain will follow... "Without sin there is no pain".
See Adam in Gen 3:17 and then Gen 5:29 and then Revelation 16:11.
"those who practice lawlessness will be thrown in the fire" Action - reaction. Reap what you sow. Action - concequence. Sin results in PAIN
Look around you every time you lie, cheat, steal. Every time you have ought or curse... you hurt and pain follows. NO MATTER WHAT SIN YOU DO PAIN WILL ALWAYS FOLLOW.
I stand firm to my belief that without Sin, there is no pain (with sin, pain will follow) and I'm am no Christian Scientist.
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RE: 1 Cornthians 3:17 and Suicide - 9/16/2008 12:51:40 PM
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ta_mosquito
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