A Reasonable Argument for Christianity in a Postmodern World
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A Reasonable Argument for Christianity in a Postmodern ... - 10/7/2008 8:53:14 PM
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psumrp
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I’m on a quest. I’d like to make an effective, reasonable argument for the absolute truth of Christianity that does not pre-suppose the authority of the Bible and is not dependant on cultural upbringing.
Some background…I am a Christian and have made a choice (a leap of faith if you will) to believe the truth of Christianity. What I’m struggling with is describing my choice to post-modern intellectuals in a way that doesn’t make Christianity appear to simply be “believing in unbelievable things” or “a crutch for those in need or those that are weak.”
I often hear other Christians describe faith as believing when there is no evidence. This may work Christian to Christian. But, it sounds ridiculous to a post-modernist. They believe that dogmatic beliefs are actually harmful to society (e.g, opposing stem cell research or promoting abstinence-only education), favoring a more pragmatic approach. They ask why faith-based beliefs are held to a different (lower) standard than any other belief that we claim to have. Don’t we need to be able to make a reasonable argument based on evidence? Don’t we need an effective argument that the Bible is truly the word of God as opposed to all of the other ancient books that also claim to be?
If this answer is out there, I’d appreciate if you could point me in the right direction. I’ve tried reading a number of Christian intellectuals. However, they seem to all start from the pre-supposition that the Bible is true. I do believe that the Bible is true. But, how can I prove (even to myself) that this belief isn’t largely because of the culture that I was brought up in? I’m an obedient person. If I had a different upbringing in a different place, wouldn’t I be a “good” Muslim, a "good" Jew, or even a "good" Communist?
The only other explanation I’ve heard other than starting with Biblical truth is that one had a “personal experience.” I don’t doubt these personal experiences and have had some of my own. However, can any of us say we had a personal experience where God explicitly told us, “It’s Jesus, not all those other prophets” or “It’s the Bible, not the Koran???”
I often hear that asserting that Christianity is right is implicitly saying that other worldviews, some that include gods and some that don't, are wrong. This doesn’t fly well in our culture where pluralism and tolerance are valued. We appear to be arrogant and judgmental. As Kimball has said, we are becoming identified by what we are against rather than what we are for. I think that this has been some of the appeal of Emergent Church, which I personally think has moved too far from orthodoxy.
This is why I am on this quest. I do think we have to make a case for why the Bible is THE place to go for truth. I am looking for something more than, “if you read it, you’ll know it’s true.” Many have read it and don’t think it’s true. Others have asked God to reveal Himself to them and they still don’t believe. What should they do in that case?
As I’m sure you all know, the majority of folks think that all “good” worldviews point to the same truth. They are troubled by the dogmatic beliefs that divide us. I believe that Christianity is the best worldview for me. I want to be so certain that I know that it is the best worldview for everyone. Of course, this can’t be based on my wanting to impose my view on others. It must be based on absolute truth.
Any suggestions?
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RE: A Reasonable Argument for Christianity in a Postmod... - 10/7/2008 9:31:17 PM
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PureLight
Posts: 206
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Beyond Opinion: Living the Faith We Defend by Ravi Zacharias puts forth a good argument that I can't recall but remember thinking was logical so.
there's a push for that book, haha.
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RE: A Reasonable Argument for Christianity in a Postmod... - 10/7/2008 11:33:33 PM
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deermousie
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Let me take your question back a step, Psumrp, and make a statement about the post-modern world: it's just another manifestation of an unbelieving world going to hell. Literally. People who refuse to believe in God will believe in anything else, and it's all pretty indefensible once you take a good look at what people believe in. So they are either deluded and sort of happy in their thougthless delusion, or they know it won't stand up to examination and try to keep people from looking too close (usually by attacking the Christian POV to keep us distracted so we don't look at them). Aldous Huxley said he invented his philosophy to excuse his selfish behavior; lots of people do this.
The tangible proofs for Christianity haven't changed for millennia:
1) intrabiblical proofs,
2) extrabiblical proofs, and
3) testimonies of the people who knew Jesus and never recanted their testimony in the face of death.
1) intrabiblical proofs: the Bible supports itself. Jesus quotes the OT; Bible writers quote each other; the Bible *says* it's divinely inspired, and so on.
2) extrabiblical proofs: the number of manuscripts (MS is the abbreviation) and their accuracy is an embarrassment to nay-sayers. Scripture MS are 98.3% identical, indicating they were written close to the original MS (which we don't have).There are more manuscripts for the Bible then there are for Shakespeare's work or Julius Caesar's words (and he was a king of the Roman world), and they agree with each other more even though Shakespeare's were written only 400 years ago and the Bible was written up to 4000 years ago (starting with Job, who was probably a contemporary of Abraham).
3) Personal testimonies: the Disciples were uneducated men who stood the world on its ear. They had teachings they couldn't possibly have made up, and besides, the people listening to them likely heard Jesus, too, and their claims could have been easily refuted by the general population. These guys went to their deaths without changing their story (which in a court of American law stands as evidence, since a dying person has nothing to gain by lying). The NT writers, except for Paul, all personally knew Jesus. The four Gospels hang together in a way that shows different views of the same happenings. And even though the Bible was penned through about 40 different people over a 4000 year period and being different kinds of livelihoods (sheepherders to kings) they all have the same thread of redemption running through them (just try to get 40 people now of all the same livelihood to agree on lunch).
You wanted something that didn't stand on the authority of the Bible - all of Christianity stands on the Bible and the death and resurrection of Christ. If the enemies of God can get you away from that anchor, they can eat you alive because it is your anchor and frankly most people aren't that well trained to use the other things God has given us. That's why God gave us the Bible and let lots of people see Jesus (they'll all see Him when He comes back, too, but I digress). Yeah, you can make good arguments about people's changed lives, and it's a solid one, but don't get fooled into leaving what God has given you. He gave it to you on purpose.
A crutch? More like a skeleton for a jelly fish, as we are sinners and we're weak and we blow it.
I highly recommend Josh McDowell's "Evidence That Demands A Verdict" which is an excellent book on Hermeneutics (the science and art of biblical interpretation). It's written in outline form and is really easy to use. It will change your whole outlook and give you a confidence you never had before.
God bless you, Psumrp!
_____________________________
Want to know where a certain word or phrase in the Bible is found? www.biblegateway.com Yay!
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RE: A Reasonable Argument for Christianity in a Postmod... - 10/7/2008 11:36:20 PM
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peacebearer
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Josh McDowell, Paul Little, C.S. Lewis (who was once an avowed atheist)
if you're up for a little reading, these authors' works are great resource/educational/philosophical/apologetics material.
you oughtta try doing a mission stint in some parts of the world where there is outright spiritual confrontation between supernatural entities and the Gospel. it sure helps to reinforce, in the minds and hearts of the Christians, the truth that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is a threat and a challenge to other beliefs. enough so that the unclean spirits themselves manifest directly to distract those who are hearing the Gospel.
_____________________________
"For to me to live is Christ, to die is gain" Philippians 1: 21
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RE: A Reasonable Argument for Christianity in a Postmod... - 10/8/2008 3:47:30 AM
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galadriel2
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You are on quite a quest!!! 
I would think that the Ravi Zacharias book would be your best bet, but since you ask, I will put in my two cents worth. Besides the traditional arguments of the consistency of Scripture throughout thousands of years of it being in production, the fulfillment of prophecies, historical accuracy, the willingness of all of the apostles to die for the testimony of Christ's resurrection (you wouldn't suffer and die for a lie), I would suggest a philosophical argument because I think that is what you are after. Basically, if what the post-modernist believes is true - that we all have our own reality and experiencing/believing Jesus is just one of millions - I would ask a post-modernist then - how do you know that what you see and feel is real then? Or...how is it that men can so successfully communicate with each other if we share no common objective reality? I would avoid going down the 'I know that Jesus lives because He lives within my soul' route even though we sing these words and concepts in Church. This sort of argument plays right into the post-modernist's delusions. Its ok among believers, but we run into problems when using it with the lost. The best (really totally brilliant) book that I have ever read about the nature of experiencing Christ and discerning if you are in Christ and Christ is in you (besides 1 John and Romans chapter 8) is Jonathan Edwards' 'Religious Affections'. Maybe you can find some arguments from there that connect acceptable religious experience with the objective truths taught in the Bible and verified by reality. Speaking of 'acceptable religious experience' here are some verses about that: 'If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man's religion is worthless. Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.' (Js. 1:26, 27) Matthew 6 is a chapter in the Bible that also teaches how one is to live in the presence of 'our God and Father'.
God bless,
Galadriel
< Message edited by galadriel2 -- 10/8/2008 4:01:26 AM >
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RE: A Reasonable Argument for Christianity in a Postmod... - 10/8/2008 10:28:29 AM
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lightbeamrider
Posts: 131
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One effective method is to ask them what they believe and make them defend their unbelief to u. The best defense is a good offense and many unbelievers will not debate unless they can dictate the terms. Oftentimes unbelievers are just as dogmatic, if not more, than Christians. Have u tried the book What's So Great About Christianity by Dinesh D'Souza? D'Souza debated a well known Atheist and was really impressive to say the least and , I think, this debate is available on D'Souza's web site in its entirety. Most unbelievers are Darwinists. Yesterday on MSN i read some expert claim Evolution has stopped with Humans and then gave his reasons. U could nail them with that.
Read a bio on Paul written by A.N. Wilson who rejects Christianity but concluded since the Fall of Jerusalem is never directly mentioned in the New Testament, most of the New must have been written before AD 70. All except Revelation? If i remember right. The Fall of Jerusalem is mentioned in the early Christian Writings. This is by a non Christian!
Study Ezekiel 37 and compare it with Israel today. Israel ceased to exist in AD 70 and came back into existence in 1948. Two conditions exist today in Israel which has not happened since the time of Soloman. 1) They are self rule. 2) They are undivided. Can u or anybody name me any other country which has ceased to exist as a nation and came back into existence 1878 years later? As i read my Matthew Henry Bible Commentary (unabridged) on Ezekiel 37 there are many quotes predicting the future comming together of Israel as a nation. Matthew Henry did his thing in 1706 and u know what? Israel did not exist in 1706 and this is only one source. Her are some quotes.
''It is here promised that they shall dwell comfortably, v 25, 26. They shall dwell in the land of Israel; for where else will the Israelites dwell?''
''The meaning was that Judah and Israel shall become one in the hand of God, v. 19. 1. They shall be one, one nation.''
''The Jews, after their return, were under one government, and not divided as formerly.''
Lets say Matthew Henry wrote all this in 1705. How did Matthew Henry know Israel would come back together and exist as a nation undivided and self rule? And, bam, it happens 243 years later! Matthew Henry is only one source. I have had Christians show me books written in the 1800s predicting the rebirth of Israel.
Now when i have showed this to unbelievers, they have no response, they have no clue and it is factual information they do not want to know. It is historical fact not subject to opinion and they can't argue with it so u know what they do? They change the subject.
Actually it is all an exercise in futility anyway. When it comes to God the so called open mind of the unbeliever slams shut! It's like anything else. The more you do it the better u get at it and the more u realize just beneath the surface they are deathly afraid.
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RE: A Reasonable Argument for Christianity in a Postmod... - 10/8/2008 1:21:41 PM
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PolarBear
Posts: 560
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Moving to San Antonio!
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Welcome, and great quest. I love it when Christians think like this!
quote:
ORIGINAL: psumrp
I’m on a quest. I’d like to make an effective, reasonable argument for the absolute truth of Christianity that does not pre-suppose the authority of the Bible and is not dependant on cultural upbringing.
There isn't a single argument that will blow everything else away. If there were, only the most stubborn of people would be non-Christian. You have to build a case based on the weight of the evidence, considering many factors. And you have to make an inference to the best explanation of everything.
quote:
I often hear other Christians describe faith as believing when there is no evidence. This may work Christian to Christian. But, it sounds ridiculous to a post-modernist.
This cannot be overstated. To believe in the Christian worldview if there were no evidence for it would be ridiculous. Otherwise, why wouldn't some other random idea be truth? Paul admonishes us to "test all things, hold fast to the good" (1 Thess. 5:21).
quote:
If this answer is out there, I’d appreciate if you could point me in the right direction. I’ve tried reading a number of Christian intellectuals. However, they seem to all start from the pre-supposition that the Bible is true.
There are a lot of good ones. I am a big fan of the apologetics ministry Reasons to Believe. Their main work is science apologetics (which may be very useful to you) but they also have a philosophical apologist on staff, Dr. Kenneth Samples. His own works are very good, but by studying his sources you may gain even more insight. He studies the likes of Alvin Plantinga and Francis Schaeffer, who are said to be brilliant thinkers (I haven't read them directly myself).
Samples' latest book is A World of Difference, which looks at worldviews logically. It points out several tests for a consistent worldview, then devotes several chapters to defining exactly what the Christian worldview claims. The last section of the book puts the worldviews to the test. There is a chapter on naturalism, postmodernism, pantheistic monism (the basis of Far East religions), Islam, and historic Christianity.
The four "other religion" chapters show positive traits of the worldviews, then point out several logical reasons why they cannot be true--they fail reasonable tests. It then shows how historic Christianity passes all the worldview tests.
The chapters that define the Christian worldview should be very useful to those who may have not looked at what they believe in-depth. And that is most Christians -- according to a Barna study, only 9% have a true Christian worldview!
quote:
The only other explanation I’ve heard other than starting with Biblical truth is that one had a “personal experience.” I don’t doubt these personal experiences and have had some of my own. However, can any of us say we had a personal experience where God explicitly told us, “It’s Jesus, not all those other prophets” or “It’s the Bible, not the Koran???”
You're right that personal experiences cannot be tests, even divine healings. Just as a Christian could say that a Muslim who experienced healing could be a deception of Satan, any other religion could say Christian healings are actually blessings from their god or deceptions from their evil one. As wonderful as they are when they come from the true God, they cannot be used to define spiritual truth.
quote:
I often hear that asserting that Christianity is right is implicitly saying that other worldviews, some that include gods and some that don't, are wrong.
That's correct, and it must be the case. But it is true for every other religion too. If Buddhism defines spiritual truth, then Islam is hogwash. They are all just as exclusive, but somehow Christianity offends more than the others.
quote:
Others have asked God to reveal Himself to them and they still don’t believe. What should they do in that case?
Trust in God's sovereignty, and that He has called some, but not others (yet). Jesus Himself says "no one can come to Me unless the Spirit beckons."
_____________________________
My current ministry dream:
http://victorymuseum.org
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RE: A Reasonable Argument for Christianity in a Postmod... - 10/14/2008 9:15:05 PM
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psumrp
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Thank you for all of the responses. I'm putting together my reading list now.
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RE: A Reasonable Argument for Christianity in a Postmod... - 10/14/2008 9:27:00 PM
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jbow
Posts: 631
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From: Dixie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: peacebearer
Josh McDowell, Paul Little, C.S. Lewis (who was once an avowed atheist)
if you're up for a little reading, these authors' works are great resource/educational/philosophical/apologetics material.
you oughtta try doing a mission stint in some parts of the world where there is outright spiritual confrontation between supernatural entities and the Gospel. it sure helps to reinforce, in the minds and hearts of the Christians, the truth that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is a threat and a challenge to other beliefs. enough so that the unclean spirits themselves manifest directly to distract those who are hearing the Gospel.
Peacebearer... You need to get a copy of R.C.s book. It is a story of this very thing. http://www.deliveranceofsara.com/
Julien
_____________________________
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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RE: A Reasonable Argument for Christianity in a Postmod... - 10/14/2008 11:16:56 PM
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peacebearer
Posts: 20
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbow
quote:
ORIGINAL: peacebearer
Josh McDowell, Paul Little, C.S. Lewis (who was once an avowed atheist)
if you're up for a little reading, these authors' works are great resource/educational/philosophical/apologetics material.
you oughtta try doing a mission stint in some parts of the world where there is outright spiritual confrontation between supernatural entities and the Gospel. it sure helps to reinforce, in the minds and hearts of the Christians, the truth that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is a threat and a challenge to other beliefs. enough so that the unclean spirits themselves manifest directly to distract those who are hearing the Gospel.
Peacebearer... You need to get a copy of R.C.s book. It is a story of this very thing. http://www.deliveranceofsara.com/
Julien
thanks for the referral :) but who's RC?
_____________________________
"For to me to live is Christ, to die is gain" Philippians 1: 21
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RE: A Reasonable Argument for Christianity in a Postmod... - 10/15/2008 8:12:31 AM
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nettiel
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have you ever had a fire that took your home?i,ve had 3 that took mine, have you ever been somewhere at the wrong time and wondered why you werent harmed? there is a great and awsome god, everyone just needs to look around, stop and look around.nettiel
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RE: A Reasonable Argument for Christianity in a Postmod... - 10/15/2008 10:39:33 AM
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terryjohn
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For me it is the righteousness of God in Christ that does it for me. It actually stumps me how a post modern world can say there are no independant varafiable truths when only the criminally insane would suggest it is okay to rape, murder and steal.
Without faith in God, all morality and ethics are just pointless opinions which you are free to agree with or reject. However, nothing scares evil men more than someone more evil than they are. Men are not covinced by arguments but real evil scares them and real goodness shames them.
I have for some time believed then that the gospel is about preaching the righteousness or the goodness of God. I remember some time ago reading on the internet about one guy who said that his religions founder was wise, good and beautiful and so I simply and honestly asked him to explain why? He never responded. Surely goodness can be defined?
Goodness like evil exists. Many who will not want to admit that there is a God are all too willing to admit there is evil. We may not be able to point to much goodness in this world but surely the evil we see speaks volumes about God's righteousness?
Is not selfishness, greed, murder, lust etc. still sins?
The gospel of Christ is the power of God to everyone interested in goodness, for in it the righteousness of God and the very nature of God is revealed.
Somehow, we have to show others that there is truth in seeing sin as sin and value in the righteous demands of God. Are there laws against love, forgiveness, and goodness?
The truth of the gospel is in what it says about me and the evil in this world. If it did not address these issues, I would be lost and consider it a lie. In the end, many will not believe, not becasue they can't, but because they do not want to. Belief demands change and action and many are unwilling simply because they believe their sins will let them down or they cannot live up to such high standards but that is not to say they do not accept the standards and that is a starting point.
They say an evil man cannot find God for the same reasons a criminal will not go looking for a police officer.
You could say that if we cannot even begin to hope for Christ we are lost.
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RE: A Reasonable Argument for Christianity in a Postmod... - 10/15/2008 11:25:14 AM
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mvic
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All the books that have been written in the world, all the arguments that have been argued over the years, all the books and arguments which will take place into infinity, will not satisfy anyone who does not want to believe.
To believe in God is to believe without proof. That's what is called Faith.
"Do you believe because you see me? How happy are those who believe without seeing me!" John 20:29.
_____________________________
Visit http://www.holyvisions.co.uk
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