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After killing Christians, the Jews would... - 8/17/2008 11:38:53 PM
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MichaelTheeArchAngel
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After killing Christians, the Jews would take the New testament scripture written in Hebrew, and carefully cut the name of God out. Then they would place the divine name in a safe place to keep. Following that, they then would burn the remainder of the scrolls in a fire. Rabbi Yose who lived during the second century AD states that, "One cuts out the reference to the Divine Name which are in them [the Christian writings] and stores them away, and the rest burns." One of his characteristic sayings is, "He who proclaimed the coming of the Messiah, and he who hated scholars and their disciples; and that false prophet and those slanderers, will have no part in the future world." According to Bacher this was directed against the Hebrew Christians. And so it is an established fact then, that the disciples of Christ did in fact write the Holy Name of God into the New Testament.
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RE: After killing Christians, the Jews would... - 8/18/2008 12:19:31 PM
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Lapidoth
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references?
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BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: After killing Christians, the Jews would... - 8/18/2008 12:25:21 PM
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Ps103
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This relates to Christian Doctrine how?
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RE: After killing Christians, the Jews would... - 8/18/2008 12:27:09 PM
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DaveW
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That is one ancient rabbi's opinion. The anti missionaries and Haredi in Israel now just collect up NTs in Hebrew and burn them, divine name and all.
To the OP: Your point?
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RE: After killing Christians, the Jews would... - 8/18/2008 2:13:39 PM
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MichaelTheeArchAngel
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This was written in relationship to different Church doctrines of not useing God's Holy name. It shows that Yahshua and the disciples did use God's divine name in speaking and the New Testament scriptures.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
This relates to Christian Doctrine how?
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RE: After killing Christians, the Jews would... - 8/18/2008 2:16:31 PM
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MichaelTheeArchAngel
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There is a difference between someones opinion and an historical fact.
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
That is one ancient rabbi's opinion. The anti missionaries and Haredi in Israel now just collect up NTs in Hebrew and burn them, divine name and all.
To the OP: Your point?
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RE: After killing Christians, the Jews would... - 8/18/2008 2:21:28 PM
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MichaelTheeArchAngel
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Do an internet search for "Rabbi Yose" and "Bacher."
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
references?
quote:
Rabbi Yose
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RE: After killing Christians, the Jews would... - 8/18/2008 3:24:29 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MichaelTheeArchAngel
There is a difference between someones opinion and a historical fact.
quote:
That is one ancient rabbi's opinion. The anti missionaries and Haredi in Israel now just collect up NTs in Hebrew and burn them, divine name and all. You misunderstood me. I am not disbelieving that R. Yose said that, and perhaps did that. I cited similar things going on today.
That does not make him (or the haredi in Israel) representative of all Jews. Indeed, have you not heard the old joke about 2 Jews and 3 opinions?
I am still wondering what your point is.
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RE: After killing Christians, the Jews would... - 8/18/2008 3:26:06 PM
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GroupW
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I think I get his point now, but I was more than a little afraid of where he was going to go with that initially.
BT
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RE: After killing Christians, the Jews would... - 8/18/2008 5:59:43 PM
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MichaelTheeArchAngel
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The point of this post is to establish this fact, that Yahshua and his disciples did speak and write God's Most Holy Name. Where as it is against most church doctrines, to speak or write His Most Holy Name.quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: MichaelTheeArchAngel
There is a difference between someones opinion and a historical fact.
quote:
That is one ancient rabbi's opinion. The anti missionaries and Haredi in Israel now just collect up NTs in Hebrew and burn them, divine name and all. You misunderstood me. I am not disbelieving that R. Yose said that, and perhaps did that. I cited similar things going on today.
That does not make him (or the haredi in Israel) representative of all Jews. Indeed, have you not heard the old joke about 2 Jews and 3 opinions?
I am still wondering what your point is.
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RE: After killing Christians, the Jews would... - 8/19/2008 1:04:22 AM
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Ezra
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quote:
The point of this post is to establish this fact, that Yahshua and his disciples did speak and write God's Most Holy Name. Where as it is against most church doctrines, to speak or write His Most Holy Name.
And you really think that by coming to a Christian forum and blatantly accusing Christ and His apostles of law-breaking, you are going to achieve something?
We are all quite familiar with the hatred of unbelieving Jews against Jesus and His apostles. Those people were blind and in darkness. Christ called them "children of the devil". And because they would not believe that He is the Holy One of Israel, they went into eternal damnation.
But we can be thankful that today there are many Jews who are turning to the Lord Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. Perhaps you might want to communicate with these Jews, since you proved nothing with your accusation other than the fact that you need to repent and believe.
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RE: After killing Christians, the Jews would... - 8/19/2008 2:06:27 AM
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MichaelTheeArchAngel
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Yahwah reveals His name to Moses
Exodus 3:13-15.
13 And Moses said to Elohiym, “Suppose I go to the siblings of the Israelites and say to them, 'The Elohiym of your forefathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is His name?' What shall I say to them?” (Elohiym means, “God of The Living.”) It can also be translated as “god-s of the living” or “god-s of life,” for those who have life immortal.
14 And Elohiym said to Moses, “The Living that Lives. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'The Living has sent me to you.” (HaYah) in the ancient Semitic language means: The Living, or The Life.)
15 And Elohiym also said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, 'Yahwah, the Elohiym of your forefathers; the Elohiym of Abraham, the Elohiym of Isaac and the Elohiym of Jacob has sent me to you.' That’s my name forever, the name by which I’m to be remembered, from generation to generation.”
Psalms 22:22.
I will declare your name to my brothers; in the congregation I will praise you.
Psalm 66:4.
All the earth bows down to you; they sing praise to you, they sing praise to your name." Selah. (Selah means to pause and consider.)
Psalms 83.
16 Cover their faces with shame so that men will seek your name, O Yahwah.
17 May they ever be ashamed and dismayed; may they perish in disgrace.
18 Let them know that you, whose name is Yahwah, that you alone are the Most High over all the earth.
Isaiah 63:16.
For you are our Father, though Abraham does not know us or Israel acknowledge us; you, Yahwah, are our Father; our Redeemer from old is your name.
Isaiah 52:5-6.
5 And now what do I have here declares Yahwah? For my people have been taken away for nothing, and those who rule them mock, declares Yahwah. And all day long my name is constantly blasphemed.
6 Therefore my people will know my name; therefore in that day they will know that it is I who foretold it. Yes, it is I.
Isaiah 42:8.
I’m Yahwah; that’s my name!
I will not give my glory to another…
Jeremiah 15:16.
When your words came, I ate them; they were my joy and my heart's delight, for I bear your name, Yahwah, Elohiym of Host.
Joel 2
26 You will have plenty to eat, until you are full, and you will praise the name of Yahwah your Elohiym, who has worked wonders for you; never again will my people be shamed.
27 Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Yahwah your Elohiym, and that there is no other; never again will my people be shamed.
28 "And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions.
29 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days.
30 I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke.
31 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of Yahwah.
32 And everyone who calls on the name of Yahwah will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as Yahwah has said, among the survivors whom Yahwah calls.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
The point of this post is to establish this fact, that Yahshua and his disciples did speak and write God's Most Holy Name. Where as it is against most church doctrines, to speak or write His Most Holy Name.
And you really think that by coming to a Christian forum and blatantly accusing Christ and His apostles of law-breaking, you are going to achieve something?
We are all quite familiar with the hatred of unbelieving Jews against Jesus and His apostles. Those people were blind and in darkness. Christ called them "children of the devil". And because they would not believe that He is the Holy One of Israel, they went into eternal damnation.
But we can be thankful that today there are many Jews who are turning to the Lord Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. Perhaps you might want to communicate with these Jews, since you proved nothing with your accusation other than the fact that you need to repent and believe.
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RE: After killing Christians, the Jews would... - 8/19/2008 6:31:13 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
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This thread really does seem to be devoid of an actual point................. if I had to make a call on what the point was, I would say something like "hearing myself talk"...
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RE: After killing Christians, the Jews would... - 8/19/2008 6:52:51 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MichaelTheeArchAngel
The point of this post is to establish this fact, that Yahshua and his disciples did speak and write God's Most Holy Name. Where as it is against most church doctrines, to speak or write His Most Holy Name. That is kind of a no-brainer.
However, Yeshua/Jesus said in John 17 that HE revealed a new name: Father, to the disciples. So that name is not good enough?
And before you start in about "father" not being a name, you need to look at how a "name" usage varies from Judaic culture to modern western culture. What they meant by "name" and what we mean are different things.
------------------
You called this thread "After killing Christians, the Jews would..." I see nowhere in the title anything about the apostles writing the NAME. If your point is as you say, why bring up Jews killing Christians?
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RE: After killing Christians, the Jews would... - 8/19/2008 12:32:11 PM
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Lapidoth
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Exodus 3:13-15.
13 And Moses said to Elohiym, “Suppose I go to the siblings of the Israelites and say to them, 'The Elohiym of your forefathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is His name?' What shall I say to them?” (Elohiym means, “God of The Living.”) It can also be translated as “god-s of the living” or “god-s of life,” for those who have life immortal.
what shall I say to them?
ehyeh, asher, ehyeh = I AM THAT I AM
Revelation says Jesus will return with a name that is
only known to Him.
I used to sing a song in the night clubs that went a little like this:
"We meet on the street and we play WORD GAMES,"
Many times context reveals that "in the name" is actually
in the "authority of."
I baptize you "in the name" of the Father, the Son, and The Holy Ghost.
I baptize you "in the name" of Jesus only.
I baptize you "in the name" of Yeshua ben yahweh.
Well, I guess I'll just mikveh myself.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: After killing Christians, the Jews would... - 8/19/2008 1:03:38 PM
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MichaelTheeArchAngel
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The words "I am" are not used in that place. ehYah and haYah are two different words.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
Exodus 3:13-15.
13 And Moses said to Elohiym, “Suppose I go to the siblings of the Israelites and say to them, 'The Elohiym of your forefathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is His name?' What shall I say to them?” (Elohiym means, “God of The Living.”) It can also be translated as “god-s of the living” or “god-s of life,” for those who have life immortal.
what shall I say to them?
ehyeh, asher, ehyeh = I AM THAT I AM
Revelation says Jesus will return with a name that is
only known to Him.
I used to sing a song in the night clubs that went a little like this:
"We meet on the street and we play WORD GAMES,"
Many times context reveals that "in the name" is actually
in the "authority of."
I baptize you "in the name" of the Father, the Son, and The Holy Ghost.
I baptize you "in the name" of Jesus only.
I baptize you "in the name" of Yeshua ben yahweh.
Well, I guess I'll just mikveh myself.
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RE: After killing Christians, the Jews would... - 8/19/2008 4:53:47 PM
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MichaelTheeArchAngel
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I'm sorry that I'm on a slow boat to China, but I am studying many different things and talking to other people around the world. If you have an NIV Exhaustive Concordance then look it up. It says HaYah which can be translated as "The Living."
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
The words "I am" are not used in that place. ehYah and haYah are two different words.
Why don't you just spit it out? Telling someone they are wrong and then giving nothing to refute is pointless. How are you helping? Are you simply attempting to be derisive?
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RE: After killing Christians, the Jews would... - 8/19/2008 4:59:13 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MichaelTheeArchAngel
I'm sorry that I'm on a slow boat to China, but I am studying many different things and talking to other people around the world....
Mike, it sounds more like you're on the spiritual journey taken by the author of Ecclesiastes with the same vain results awaiting. Uniqueness at the expense of truth is a poor trade-off.
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RE: After killing Christians, the Jews would... - 8/19/2008 6:26:35 PM
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turretinfan
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Whether this particular Jewish fable is actually a true history is questionable. That the Apostles actually wrote the name of God in the New Testament (in Greek, the language of the New Testament) is indisputable. It's not particularly shocking to us (and it shouldn't be), because the Scriptures don't prohibit the proper use of God's holy name. Assuming that written translations of the NT were provided to Aramaic speakers in their own languages by the Apostles (and we don't have any records of that, afaik) they would be expected to have the same content (the name of God would not be omitted).
-TurretinFan
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RE: After killing Christians, the Jews would... - 8/19/2008 8:50:50 PM
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fallenstar
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All this will do is remind people of all the violence of our primitave past. Thinking about all the violence and intolerance that we can't go back and fix does us no good.
And where is the disscussion?
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RE: After killing Christians, the Jews would... - 8/20/2008 7:59:27 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MichaelTheeArchAngel
If you have an NIV Exhaustive Concordance then look it up. It says HaYah which can be translated as "The Living." While it CAN be translated as such and such, that does not mean it should be rendered that way in any specific case. Indeed, consider the following:
Asher HaYah,
V'hoveh V'Yavoh
Who was, who is
and who is to come.
This is the normal sense of it: the verb to be.
NEVER NEVER NEVER try to take just a word or even a phrase and try to get a sense of what is being said. You can't do that even in english.
Take for example the following sentance:
The bat flew out of his hand.
Is this talking about a small winged mammal or a wooden stick? It CAN mean either.
Edited to add:
The Italians have a saying. It translates something like this: the translator is a traitor. It means you can never get the true sense of anything except in its original language.
< Message edited by DaveW -- 8/20/2008 8:21:40 AM >
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We are now grandparents TWICE!!
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RE: After killing Christians, the Jews would... - 8/20/2008 8:28:47 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: turretinfan
Whether this particular Jewish fable is actually a true history is questionable. If you understand the relationship of the church and synagoge following the Bar Kochba revolution, it becomes much less questionable. Fact is, it still happens to a lesser degree today in modern Israel and in the Jewish community in Ethiopia. quote:
That the Apostles actually wrote the name of God in the New Testament (in Greek, the language of the New Testament) is indisputable. It's not particularly shocking to us (and it shouldn't be), because the Scriptures don't prohibit the proper use of God's holy name. Assuming that written translations of the NT were provided to Aramaic speakers in their own languages by the Apostles (and we don't have any records of that, afaik) they would be expected to have the same content (the name of God would not be omitted). Actually there are ancient Hebrew or Aramaic copies of all NT books except Revelation. The SANJ project is attempting to make a complete NT (minus Rev) translated ONLY from semitic language sources.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
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RE: After killing Christians, the Jews would... - 8/21/2008 7:08:04 PM
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turretinfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: turretinfan
Whether this particular Jewish fable is actually a true history is questionable. If you understand the relationship of the church and synagoge following the Bar Kochba revolution, it becomes much less questionable. Fact is, it still happens to a lesser degree today in modern Israel and in the Jewish community in Ethiopia. quote:
That the Apostles actually wrote the name of God in the New Testament (in Greek, the language of the New Testament) is indisputable. It's not particularly shocking to us (and it shouldn't be), because the Scriptures don't prohibit the proper use of God's holy name. Assuming that written translations of the NT were provided to Aramaic speakers in their own languages by the Apostles (and we don't have any records of that, afaik) they would be expected to have the same content (the name of God would not be omitted). Actually there are ancient Hebrew or Aramaic copies of all NT books except Revelation. The SANJ project is attempting to make a complete NT (minus Rev) translated ONLY from semitic language sources.
It would be interesting if there was some documentation provided for this. I find a similar account (i.e. of cutting out the name of God before burning a document) recounted by Rabbi Yose without any mention of killing Christians or specifically of New Testaments being involved.
-TurretinFan
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RE: After killing Christians, the Jews would... - 8/22/2008 7:33:18 PM
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MichaelTheeArchAngel
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Here is a source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbi_Yose
quote:
ORIGINAL: turretinfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: turretinfan
Whether this particular Jewish fable is actually a true history is questionable. If you understand the relationship of the church and synagoge following the Bar Kochba revolution, it becomes much less questionable. Fact is, it still happens to a lesser degree today in modern Israel and in the Jewish community in Ethiopia. quote:
That the Apostles actually wrote the name of God in the New Testament (in Greek, the language of the New Testament) is indisputable. It's not particularly shocking to us (and it shouldn't be), because the Scriptures don't prohibit the proper use of God's holy name. Assuming that written translations of the NT were provided to Aramaic speakers in their own languages by the Apostles (and we don't have any records of that, afaik) they would be expected to have the same content (the name of God would not be omitted). Actually there are ancient Hebrew or Aramaic copies of all NT books except Revelation. The SANJ project is attempting to make a complete NT (minus Rev) translated ONLY from semitic language sources.
It would be interesting if there was some documentation provided for this. I find a similar account (i.e. of cutting out the name of God before burning a document) recounted by Rabbi Yose without any mention of killing Christians or specifically of New Testaments being involved.
-TurretinFan
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