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Are they just miracles? - 6/1/2008 1:57:05 AM
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fallenstar
Posts: 127
Joined: 11/29/2007
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I always seem to get in a debate with either Wiccans or Athiests. With Athiests, it's usually about how things in the Bible weren't "physically possible". All I can say was that it was the power of God, but that doesn't seem to cover it. The questions are always "Jonah couldn't have possibly survived in the belly of a giant mammal," or "How could the apple in the Garden of Eden posses the ability to transmit knowledge into one's mind?" or the big "If things like that could have happened back then, whay have the miracles stop?" Does anybody have any good defenses I could use, rather than just "It's a miracle"?
With Wiccans, it's always "MY religon is older and more ancient than YOUR religon". I'm sorry Wiccans, but Christianity has been around since the beggining of time. Hasn't it? Or was it Judaism that branched off from the main syangoges into Christianity during the time of Christ? I have heard from a few people that Christ was Jewish, not just the race but the religon, which would make it older than Wicca. If not, then since Wicca is supposedly "almost three thousand years old" Wicca is older. Any good defenses?
I know I really shouldn't be getting involved in this sort of stuff, but it just makes my blood boil when people start false rumors about the Bible. For instance, an Athiest came into a disscussion at my sister's house and was saying how God threated all his people that if they left Christianity, he would hate them and no matter how much they prayed for Christ to re-enter their life, he would never come back. I asked them which scripture they got in from, and they said "I dunno, I saw it on YouTube."
If you have any good, clean, and educating defenses for me to bring up during a debate, please tell me because all I have is "Uhhhhh, ummm, I guess it was , ummm, yeah, umm your wrong. Yeah." It's pathetic.
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RE: Are they just miracles? - 6/1/2008 2:31:24 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1240
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First of all, my biggest piece of advice is to worry less about presenting a good argument, and be concerned most with presenting Christ's love towards them. Not to say don't debate, but make sure that you're doing so in love. It is God's love that will win them, not having all the right answers.
Now, for the atheists... I don't know how much further you can go beyond "It's a miracle." If they reject the supernatural, then you can't convince them it's real. Even if they saw a miracle for themselves, I'm sure they'd find a "rational" way to explain it away. Heh, they've done a pretty good job of "disproving" the miracle of creation with atheistic evolution despite what is, in my mind, clear evidence of a creator. I might also point out that, even though they might not acknowledge modern miracles, there are many, many people who do. Also admit that some of the so-called miracles are pretty hokey (folks like Mr. Benny Hinn, for example).
For the Wiccans... Well, Wicca itself hasn't been around for very long at all. As I understand it (which, I admit, is not very thoroughly, so please take all this with the caution of me possibly being wrong), Wicca is an off-shoot of paganism that only started in the 1950s, or possibly as early as the 1920s. So, if we're comparing two off-shoot religions from the time of the origins, Christianity has about 1900 years on Wicca. But you're right, Christianity is, technically speaking, an offshoot from Judaism, in that Christ was Jewish, and we accept the Old Testament as inspired and part of God's true revelation. So, also, if we're comparing original, "root" religions, Christianity still has it. Now, if they're talking about the age of the deities in both religions... Well, I'm not sure what Wicca believes about the origin of their gods and goddesses, but since the Christian teaching is that God is eternal, and has never not been, they certainly can't claim that their divinity is any older than ours.
Not sure if that helped at all, but, hey, it is 2:30 in the morning here. ; )
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Are they just miracles? - 6/1/2008 4:11:33 PM
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SinnerSaved
Posts: 306
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: Belfast, N. Ireland
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Matthew 7:6
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
_____________________________
"No man is an island, entire of itself...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."
John Donne
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RE: Are they just miracles? - 6/7/2008 2:05:42 AM
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bval
Posts: 3
Joined: 6/7/2008
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How would Christ respond to these folks?
Did he argue with the people who lived a life separate from him?
Did he try to convince people that he was the Way?
No.
He simply was, and they followed.
How did he treat, the lepers, the centurion?
Presenting a lifestyle and words submitted to Christ says much more than a snug argument.
God doesn't simply want them to agree with points YOU make, he wants their love. Its not a matter of convincing them of necessarily anything.
Present a life and mouth that reflect Christ.
And a hear that allows Him to work in both your life and theirs.
--And yes Christ was Jewish, as member of both "religion" and tribe. He is the Messiah, that they had been waiting thousands of years for, a man of Hebrew blood and God's seed.
Totally amazing.
live peacefully-bval
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RE: Are they just miracles? - 6/15/2008 12:59:50 AM
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fallenstar
Posts: 127
Joined: 11/29/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
First of all, my biggest piece of advice is to worry less about presenting a good argument, and be concerned most with presenting Christ's love towards them. Not to say don't debate, but make sure that you're doing so in love. It is God's love that will win them, not having all the right answers.
Now, for the atheists... I don't know how much further you can go beyond "It's a miracle." If they reject the supernatural, then you can't convince them it's real. Even if they saw a miracle for themselves, I'm sure they'd find a "rational" way to explain it away. Heh, they've done a pretty good job of "disproving" the miracle of creation with atheistic evolution despite what is, in my mind, clear evidence of a creator. I might also point out that, even though they might not acknowledge modern miracles, there are many, many people who do. Also admit that some of the so-called miracles are pretty hokey (folks like Mr. Benny Hinn, for example).
For the Wiccans... Well, Wicca itself hasn't been around for very long at all. As I understand it (which, I admit, is not very thoroughly, so please take all this with the caution of me possibly being wrong), Wicca is an off-shoot of paganism that only started in the 1950s, or possibly as early as the 1920s. So, if we're comparing two off-shoot religions from the time of the origins, Christianity has about 1900 years on Wicca. But you're right, Christianity is, technically speaking, an offshoot from Judaism, in that Christ was Jewish, and we accept the Old Testament as inspired and part of God's true revelation. So, also, if we're comparing original, "root" religions, Christianity still has it. Now, if you're talking about the age of the deities in both religions... Well, I'm not sure what Wicca believes about the origin of their gods and goddesses, but since the Christian teaching is that God is eternal, and has never not been, they certainly can't claim that their divinity is any older than ours.
Not sure if that helped at all, but, hey, it is 2:30 in the morning here. ; )
quote:
i
The Athiest thing worked! I'm not sure what you really wanted, but I told them "God created all that you call science. He created atoms and storm clouds and natural chemicals....." I went on about how God created everything and this athiest girl came to my church a week later. It was amazing. :)
As for the Wiccan thing, I really am greatful for your response, but Paganism is'nt an actual religon, it's a style of certain types of religon. Pagan type religons are all the stuff where people worship the god of the sea, or do nature rituals and such. For example, Wicca, Asatru, Native American beliefs, and many from thousands of cultures around the world.
The thing about the goddess, they too, believe that their goddess is eternal, but in a different way. Each year, to them, the moon goddess gives birth to the sun god, they are young loves in the spring, parents in the summer, wise old crones in the fall, and they die in the winter. They believe that their goddess and god are eternal, but they die and are reborn. They think theirs is as old as ours.  Wicca doesn't have a root religon, but it's just a style, from what I know. Christianity is a branch off of Judaisum (sp).
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RE: Are they just miracles? - 6/16/2008 7:18:36 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1161
Joined: 11/8/2007
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The problem with this question from an atheist is that it isa catch 22. If you can explain it, then there is no need for Adonai because we can explain everything. The falacy here is the belief that understanding something makes it work. If you can't explain it, then it didn't happen. The falacy here is the belief that we understand everything that has happened. If you say you don't know, then you are being fooled in your ignorance. The falacies if this are the belief that someone other than Adonai is onmiscient and ignorance of how something works precludes its use.
Therefore, the ahteist's argument against miricles is a trap to force someone into being cornered by falacious conclusions.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Are they just miracles? - 6/16/2008 7:20:26 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1161
Joined: 11/8/2007
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The problem with this question from an atheist is that it isa catch 22. If you can explain it, then there is no need for Adonai because we can explain everything. The falacy here is the belief that understanding something makes it work. If you can't explain it, then it didn't happen. The falacy here is the belief that we understand everything that has happened. If you say you don't know, then you are being fooled in your ignorance. The falacies if this are the belief that someone other than Adonai is onmiscient and ignorance of how something works precludes its use.
Therefore, the ahteist's argument against miricles is a trap to force someone into being cornered by falacious conclusions.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Are they just miracles? - 6/18/2008 8:31:38 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 3989
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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There are many issues at work including strongly held mindsets. You or I are woefully unable to break them and unable to prove them wrong. It is not our job to convince the world of God or veracity of the gospel, it is the Holy Spirit's task. We present it and let Him take it from there.
1 Cor 1.22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom,
23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,
24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1 Cor 2.1 And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom.
2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling,
4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
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