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Be perfect... - 5/12/2008 9:53:05 PM
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Concerto
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"Therefore, you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matthew 5:48.
Question: How does one strive toward holy perfection (through the Holy Spirit), while at the same time avoiding perfectionism?
C
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RE: Be perfect... - 5/12/2008 11:05:31 PM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Concerto
Question: How does one strive toward holy perfection (through the Holy Spirit), while at the same time avoiding perfectionism?
C
Don't strive. Rest in the Holy Spirit instead.
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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RE: Be perfect... - 5/12/2008 11:20:28 PM
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ClintonPI
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Jesus was setting an unattainable standard, His own standard of perfection. But He who is perfect could not set an imperfect standard. Like the Law, the Sermon on the Mount acts like a school master to direct us to Christ (Gal 3:24). It shows us that we are unable to obtain this standard, and show us our need for grace.
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RE: Be perfect... - 5/12/2008 11:34:25 PM
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GraceBro
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You don't strive for something you already have received through faith.
"For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified." Hebrews 10:14
It is not an expression of faith to strive for something God has already given you in His Son.
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ..." Ephesians 1:3
If you have been blessed with every spiritual blessing, what else is there to strive for that you don't already possess? Did God forget something?
Grace and Peace
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http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GraceRest/
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RE: Be perfect... - 5/13/2008 1:07:56 PM
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Bluethread
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The way to avoid perfectionism is to daily acknowledge our shortcomings, make restitution to those we have wronged, leave the daily sacrifice of Ha Meshiach Yeshua(The Messiah Jesus) at the alter in the assurance that it will be accepted on Shovaot(the day of judgement) and then, with a clear conscience, recommit ourselves to living as Adonai requires.
Phil 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Be perfect... - 5/13/2008 9:59:41 PM
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doer
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Concerto
"Therefore, you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matthew 5:48.
Question: How does one strive toward holy perfection (through the Holy Spirit), while at the same time avoiding perfectionism?
C
I have always read that verse like this:...... "if you want to get to heaven by being under the law, you had better be perfect just like your father in heaven is perfect"
(through the Holy Spirit) isn't mentioned in that verse.
if you want to be under that law, you will NEVER make it... unless you are perfect - which you aint!!!
hello.... you need a saviour!!
and even tho Jesus doesn't come right out and say that... it screams from the page at me.
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RE: Be perfect... - 5/14/2008 1:28:12 PM
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Bluethread
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The problem with that interpretation is that it ignores context.
Mt 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Yeshua(Jesus) is talking about halacha(lifestyle) here not salvation. If, we use your interpretation, then we would not be subject to the "second great commandment". Yeshua(Jesus) seems to be saying here that loving ones' neighbor(friend) is not enough, but ones' neighbor refers to ones' enemies also. Therefore, we should not interpret the "two great commandments" narrowly, but we should interpret them as perfectly(broadly) as possible. That is we are not to make excuses for our behavior.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Be perfect... - 5/15/2008 11:01:24 PM
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McFatty
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Is anyone here perfect? Has anyone here met anyone who is perfect?
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“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Be perfect... - 5/16/2008 10:10:01 AM
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timf
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"Therefore, you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matthew 5:48.
Perfect = τελειοι adjective - nominative plural masculine
teleios tel'-i-os: complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter completeness -- of full age, man, perfect.
"Complete" might be a better translation. It is then more consistent with Ephesians;
Ephesians 4:11-14
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
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RE: Be perfect... - 5/19/2008 8:35:50 PM
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Tomb
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Hello timf, you done a great job helping us to understand what "perfect" means.
I would like to point out that today we are under a law (Gal.6:2) (James 1:25) (Heb.8:10) (1Cor.9:21). I realize many teach otherwise,but please read the verses I just posted. Who can deny it when the word of God tells us we are under law when we do certain things?
The Lord knew each of us was going to fail at obeying His N.T Law. I find it very interesting that God provided for us when we did fail. Notice what happen to Simon just after he became a Christian in (Acts 8:12-24).
He failed as a babe in Christ. He tried to buy the gift of the Holy Spirit. Peter tells Simon his spiritual condition because of what he had done. The remedy was for Simon to repent and pray to God for forgiveness. This is part of how Christian continues to be complete (or perfect).
What we find Simon doing in (Acts 8:12-24) is called the second law of pardon. It can also be found in (1John 1:9).
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
(1John 1:9) is not how a person becomes a Christian. It is something the Christian does to once again be reconciled to God.
(Heb.10:26-31) teaches us when a Christian needs to follow the second law of pardon. It is the continual wilful sin that puts a Christians soul in jeopardy. Repentance and prayer to God for forgiveness is the answer to such actions (Luke 13:3) (Acts 17:30) (2Chron.7:14).
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RE: Be perfect... - 5/19/2008 10:06:37 PM
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Heavendweller
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Thanks Tomb. Excellent post. I know what you have said is not popular in many Christian circles but nonetheless, Scripture makes it clear that we are called upon to LIVE like Christians and IMITATE our Lord Jesus Christ.
Heavendweller
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RE: Be perfect... - 5/20/2008 12:08:54 AM
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gmc4Jesus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Concerto
"Therefore, you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matthew 5:48.
Question: How does one strive toward holy perfection (through the Holy Spirit), while at the same time avoiding perfectionism?
C
The New Testament advises us that perfection is a gift from God when we come to Christ in obedience and submission. At the same time, the New Ttestament also places an obligation on us to live like the saints that we are.
There is part which only God can do, but we must also do our part in accepting Jesus, repenting of our sins and trying to mature in our spiritual walk. To not refrain from sin would be to reject God's salvation.
This is similar to the discussion on Holy Spirit? in another thread.
How do we balance our responsibility towards God while relying on His Grace?
God bless you as we do our part in living the perfect life that God has called us to live.
_____________________________
Let's talk about Jesus, His life and teachings at the www.gettingtoknowjesus.org Gospel Study Forum.
Home of "Getting To Know Jesus", a complete Bible study on the life and teachings of Jesus.
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RE: Be perfect... - 5/20/2008 8:51:12 PM
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rcjones
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The book of Matthew can be broken into four blocks:
1. Jesus as King or Here comes The King! Matt 1-4
2. Sermon on The mount or Who is in His Kingdom? Matt 5 - 11:27
3. Nature of The Kingdom of God or His Kingdom is not of this world. Matt 12-22
4. Matthew's Eschatology or His Kingdom Established. Matt 23-28
The last three blocks are written in parallel outlines (similar to what Dr Gage at John Knox is finding between John and Revelations) which are identified by words or concepts shared between sequences of verses.
For example:
In The second block, Matt 5:1 parallels Matt 8:1 by The imagery of Jesus going up and down The mountain.
This alone would not be a significant fact were it to stand alone. But if The sequence of linking passages that continues through The rest of The book is real, then what is The message that Matthew is attempting to show us?
The parallel passage to The "be perfect" passage in question is:
Matt 9:20 and lo, a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, having come to him behind, did touch The fringe of his garments,
Matt 9:21 for she said within herself, `If only I may touch his garment, I shall be saved.'
Matt 9:22 And Jesus having turned about, and having seen her, said, `Be of good courage, daughter, thy faith hath saved thee,' and The woman was saved from that hour.
This supports The concept that "being perfect" is being 'saved' as The woman was. The linking words are concerning 'asking' which is The way we get saved.
_____________________________
Riddle me this:
Job 8.9 (For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow)
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RE: Be perfect... - 5/20/2008 9:58:29 PM
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bsjones84
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quote:
Therefore, you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matthew 5:48.
Question: How does one strive toward holy perfection (through the Holy Spirit), while at the same time avoiding perfectionism?
As someone else mentioned, we don't strive. It isn't something we can bring to frution through works. We must yield ourselves to the Holy Spirit. In doing so, the Holy Spirit works perfection in us. Also, when we are saved, we are hid in Christ (in God's eyes); therefore, we are perfect because Christ is perfect. The law has a two fold purpose. The law is God's perfect standard. We as imperfect, sinful man cannot attain God's perfect standard. The law exposes sin as well. It makes clear to us how horribly short of God's standard we fall. The law sets the standard, and therby reveals how we fail to meet that standard. That's where the law leaves us. No amount of effort can bring us into a standing of righteousness in God's eyes. No matter how "perfect" we try to live, it's still filthy rags to God. To atone for our wretchedness, the law required a sacrifice. Jesus was that sacrifice. When He said He didn't come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it, He meant it literally. He was the sacrifice that fulfilled the sacrifice for which the law was looking. In providing Himself as the sacrifice the law needed, He fulfilled the law. Because of this, we are delivered from the law of sin and death (law of Moses) and live under the law of Life in Christ (saved by grace through faith).
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
So we see that perfection is not a perfection attained through works, but through repetance and faith in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.
quote:
I would like to point out that today we are under a law (Gal.6:2) (James 1:25) (Heb.8:10) (1Cor.9:21). I realize many teach otherwise,but please read the verses I just posted. Who can deny it when the word of God tells us we are under law when we do certain things?
I have a problem with this statement. Galatians 6:2 says we are fulfilling the law of Christ. This, as Roman 8:1-9 tells us, is different from the law of sin and death. James 1:25 isn't referring to the law of Moses either, rather the works that are the result of faith. Hebrews 8:10 is quoting verses from the old testament. If you go back to verse seven you will see the writer saying the first covenant was faulty, and therefore there was established a second. 1 Corinthians 9:21 also speaks of the Law of Christ being different from the Law of Moses. If I misunderstood your meaning of providing these verses, I apologize. The bible clearly establishes that we do not need to keep the law of Moses. Paul referred to it as frustrating the grace of God. We are, however, required to fulfill the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ, which is being saved by faith in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection according to God's grace.
quote:
How do we balance our responsibility towards God while relying on His Grace?
Our responsibility to God is to rely on His grace. Jesus told Paul that His grace is sufficient. We need nothing else, we only need to trust in God's grace. God's grace is that Jesus atoned for our sins and reconciled us to God when we deserved to go to Hell and suffer the consequences of our sins.
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RE: Be perfect... - 5/22/2008 2:19:11 AM
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Rev_22_4
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Very good answers here! Please allow me to take this from another angle and add to the already very good answers.
God tells Abram to be perfect way back in Genesis.
quote:
Genesis 17
1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
How does one be perfect? I would like to suggest to you that God isn't going to command us to do things that we can't do. I believe that if God does command us to do something we can't do then, with the command comes the power to do it.
God gave us a hint when He told Abram to be perfect. Before He told Abram to be perfect, He told him to “walk before me”. If we can keep it in our minds at all times that we are right in front of God, it would probably make it a little easier to resist temptation. God sees everything. Keep that in mind. When things go your way, know that He is right there and allowed them to go your way. Thank Him for it. When you are walking to the door at work, know that He is right there walking with you. Ask Him to help you stay focused so you can do a good job. If you know that you are not supposed to be smoking the herb, how do you think He would feel if you were toking up right in front of Him? If you love God, you are not going to want to do things that would disappoint Him; especially right in front of Him. Before God told Abram to walk before Him, He told him that He was the Almighty God. There is nothing that God can't do. When you are tempted to do something that would disappoint Him, know that He is right there with you. Ask Him to take that temptation from you. When He does, thank Him for it. Then ask Him to change your heart so that you don't desire to do those ugly things anymore. Ask Him to give you new desires: desires for good rather than evil. God can do more than forgive you of your sins. He can change your heart.
quote:
Psalms 37
4 Delight thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.
Psalms 51
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
2 Chronicles 29
19 And give unto Solomon my son a perfect heart, to keep thy commandments, thy testimonies, and thy statutes, and to do all these things, and to build the palace, for the which I have made provision.
Now there are still going to be times when we sin. When we do, we should ask God for forgiveness.
quote:
1 John 1
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If you are cleansed from all unrighteousness, this means you have no unrighteousness in you. This means that when you get up off your knees, you don't stand before God as a forgiven sinner. You stand before God as though you have never sinned! That is the beauty of what is called "Righteousness by Faith". If you have never sinned, you are perfect. This is how we should be walking before God. Perfect.
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RE: Be perfect... - 5/22/2008 4:52:47 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
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living perfectly without falling to perfectionism........... good question, easy answer. Perfectionism is actually a form of pride. If we are to actually live perfect, we must not be prideful about it because pride is sin. So, be humble about your pursuit of perfection. It really is that simple. If you are truly humble, you are not thrown for a loop by failing because you know that you are still fallible.quote:
Jesus was setting an unattainable standard, His own standard of perfection. But He who is perfect could not set an imperfect standard. Like the Law, the Sermon on the Mount acts like a school master to direct us to Christ (Gal 3:24). It shows us that we are unable to obtain this standard, and show us our need for grace. While I agree with the principle being displayed here, I disagree with the actual nuts and bolts of the argument. It is thoroughly possible to be meek, to forgive, and to bless your enemies. It is not unattainable, but it is difficult. This is where your average Christian generically falls short in their walk- either they think that to be a Christian is to observe a couple of pietous occasions or experiences and you are good to go... or they think that because the Sermon on the Mount is such a difficult standard that we might as well not even try to reach it because "there is grace". There is grace for when we fail, but that does not exonerate us from attempting. John himself said that "he who is born of God does not sin..." (1st John). So our goal must be to rid ourselves totally of sin which means we are living by the ideals of the Sermon on the Mount. I don't think there is a single human who has achieved that goal on this side of eternity (with the possible exception of Paul, but that is another discussion entirely), but once again that does not remove the responsibility to reach for it. What a testimony to reach heaven and have God say "You weren't perfect... but you gave your all to try and be." That would be the ultimate affirmation for living holy, yeh?
Adam
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I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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the bible also makes mention of being perfected in the sense of Maturing In The Things of Christ... in other words not being a spiritually fat baby.
