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Can a Universalist be saved? - 5/18/2007 2:05:26 AM
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HansC
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Can a Universalist be saved? Can someone who holds to the belief of Universalism be saved? By universalism I mean the belief that ALL people will eventually end up in heaven, that a good and loving God would not condemn man to eternal darkness.
What do you guys think?
Hans
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 5/18/2007 3:37:02 AM
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cowgirlsuetxstyle
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I would hate to think that some people like Timothy McVeigh and John Wayne Gacy would end up in heaven. They were both unrepentant for the lives they took. God's law is the same, yesterday, today, and forever. God doesn't change, we do.
The belief that everyone will end up in heaven is very similar to the beliefs of the Mormon church about where folks end up when they die. Jesus said that he is the way, the truth, and the life and we must believe on him. He never said anything about changing what he taught us. 
It makes me sad when I see people drawn away from God by false doctrines and beliefs.
_____________________________
The Lord is my light and my salvation, in whom shall I fear?
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 5/18/2007 9:03:39 AM
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SavedToo
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Salvation is not a matter of a Universalist’s opinion but of what God has said in the Bible.
A loving God would not allow a murder or rapist to go unpunished. A loving God is also a just God. Since God is just, he must punish sin.
Romans 6:23:
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
But God is also merciful and provided a means to satisfy his justice through the death of his son on our behalf.
John 3:16:
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
There is one and only one way to God: Jesus. Until you accept this truth, you can not be saved.
John 14:6: Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 5/18/2007 9:24:39 AM
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Casaubon
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No has answered this yet - cana universalist be saved? I think the answer in the Bible is yes. If the way to salvation is to 'repent and believe' in Jesus then I think they can. I am suer we all hold erroneous doctrines, but we are not saved by having the right doctrine.
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From Oppenheimer's deadly toy?
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 5/18/2007 9:24:49 AM
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45degreeN
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Poor wording here. Saved isn't on the table for them, rather: After unrelenting torture in hell can they ever make it to heaven. Very Unlikely.
Let us think this through slowly so that nothing is left out.
1) They dont make it to heaven on their own merits (Oh well neither does any one else)
2) they dont make it to heaven based upon Jesus' crucifixion (never took the pledge I guess)
3) sent to hell for their evil deeds (Ouch)
4) Now they want to go to heaven? Seems unlikely after the torture of hell. What is it about hell that makes a person want heaven. Maybe relief from the torture, but being in the prescence of the one who sent you to hell might be a little too much to accept.
C.S.Lewis describes hell as being locked from the inside. Full of individuals who want to get away from God, in that sense would there be anyone interested in going to heaven from hell?
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 5/18/2007 10:32:43 AM
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ta_mosquito
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Moving this from FaithWalk to Salvation Issues.
Thanks!
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 5/18/2007 5:49:44 PM
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Fwanger
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HansC
Can a Universalist be saved? Can someone who holds to the belief of Universalism be saved? By universalism I mean the belief that ALL people will eventually end up in heaven, that a good and loving God would not condemn man to eternal darkness.
What do you guys think?
Hans
Short answer, no. If they don't accept the work of Christ on the cross, but deny Him, He has said that those that deny Him, He will deny before the Father.
But the wording is a bit strange. Can a someone who is a universalist be saved or can anyone be saved because of universalism?
_____________________________
Often have I said, I will never doubt the salvation of any one, so long as I can but know that Christ has accepted me. C.H. Spurgeon "The Way of Salvation"
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 5/19/2007 4:10:04 AM
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NobodyImportant
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Revelation 20:10 is very clear about eternal punishment in at least one instance, and that should be enough to disprove the idealism that no Evil justifies it & God is incapable of it. In this passage the Greek for 'Torment' is also a process used to test the quality of metal via scraping and while 'forever' is used for concepts like blessings which might imply an ending at some point, 'For ever and ever' is a term used consistantly throughout the bible in reference to infinite durations of time, such as the life span of God.
That said, I don't think their universalism is inherently condemning. Ignorant and naieve perhaps, and misleading, but not damning in itself. If it leads them astray they will carry the weight of their false teaching, should they teach falsely - and if their foundation is not built on the rock, it will fall away - but if they are loyal to Christ in truth and deed it seems to follow that they have not actually sinned for the sake of a mistaken doctrine anymore than one denomination or another.
There is a line here though. In some sense it could be argued blasphemous to call God cruel for administering proper Justice. I've seen people threaten to denounce their salvation over this reasoning ("I refuse to worship a God who....") only to look around ashamedly when confronted with Revelation 20:10 above. The arrogance is astounding, to have the audacity to judge God? In that sense, while there is nothing innately damning about mistakenly believing something that isn't true, the adherent may be lead to do something stupid on account of that false belief which could be.
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How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 5/19/2007 4:41:09 PM
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Robert_G
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Universalists are false teachers...PERIOD.
Some scripture in the NT states that false teachers will be punished more serverly then anyone else.
Even if you 'say' I believe in Jesus but accept Universalism as a way to heaven, then that is a false teaching. It misleads others, it confuses others, and a true Christians would NEVER promote Universalism as even a possiblity.
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..............
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 5/19/2007 5:25:59 PM
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rosswell59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HansC
Can a Universalist be saved? Can someone who holds to the belief of Universalism be saved? By universalism I mean the belief that ALL people will eventually end up in heaven, that a good and loving God would not condemn man to eternal darkness.
What do you guys think?
Hans
Anyone who believes in his heart that Jesus Christ died on the cross for his sins can be saved. That said, there are many who may be saved but have a testimony which denies it. While we cannot say that they aren't saved for sure, we must treat them as if they weren't until the get clear of the heresy that they hold.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 5/20/2007 7:02:15 AM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Casaubon
No has answered this yet - cana universalist be saved? I think the answer in the Bible is yes. If the way to salvation is to 'repent and believe' in Jesus then I think they can. I am suer we all hold erroneous doctrines, but we are not saved by having the right doctrine.
I dunno. Why would they think they need to be saved?
Another issue. I DON'T think the mental image of a grandfatherly God who lets everyone off the hook in the end--was something the people of biblical times considered--Or I seriously doubt it. The world was a hostile place with people being brutally killed--often their violent deaths was an indication of God's disfavor. Even earthquakes (as in the case of the Philippian Jailer) would be an indication of God's anger.
_____________________________
Larry
Why is it when we talk to God we're said to be praying -
but when God talks to us, we're schizophrenic.----Lily Tomlin
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 5/20/2007 5:36:47 PM
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Raymond777
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16For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.
9Because if you acknowledge and confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and in your heart believe (adhere to, trust in, and rely on the truth) that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10For with the heart a person believes (adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Christ) and so is justified (declared righteous, acceptable to God), and with the mouth he confesses (declares openly and speaks out freely his faith) and confirms [his] salvation.
9Do you not know that the unrighteous and the wrongdoers will not inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived (misled): neither the impure and immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor those who participate in homosexuality,
10Nor cheats (swindlers and thieves), nor greedy graspers, nor drunkards, nor foulmouthed revilers and slanderers, nor extortioners and robbers will inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God.
11And such some of you were [once]. But you were washed clean (purified by a complete atonement for sin and made free from the guilt of sin), and you were consecrated (set apart, hallowed), and you were justified [pronounced righteous, by trusting] in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the [Holy] Spirit of our God.
If one abides by these truths written above they may enter into everlasting life. But for them to adhere to their present beliefs, they will not receive the life that the Word has promised.
In His Love Ray
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 5/21/2007 5:17:30 AM
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cfl777
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Judge for yourself........
Unitarian Universalism is a fairly small, yet widely influential, cult. Having under 300,000 registered members, mostly in the United States, they are becoming more and more popular. Relativism, tolerance, and alternative lifestyles are all buzz-words promoted by Unitarian Universalism.
The Unitarian Universalist name comes from their denial of the doctrine of the Trinity and their belief that all human beings gain salvation--the mere idea someone might go to hell is not compatible with the character of a loving God. Its roots go all the way back to the sixteenth-century when Unitarian beliefs became popular during the Reformation. Unitarianism thought and Universalism thought were merged together during the late eighteenth-century in America during the Age of Reason. The intellectual elite of that time refused to believe in such biblical teachings as total depravity and eternal damnation, but rather embraced the idea of a single loving God who would never cause someone to suffer.
Adherents of Unitarian Universalism base their beliefs primarily upon their own experiences, and are not committed to any one religious system. They believe that each individual has the right to decide for themselves what to believe in, and that others should not infringe upon this right. As a result, one such believer might lean toward liberal Christianity, while another might lean toward New Age spirituality. There is no real dogma beyond tolerance. They reject the Bible as being the Word of God, equating it with barbaric writing that has little to do with modern man; it is a book of myths. As such, they reject the Bible's portrayal of a Triune God, leaving the concept of God up to each individual's imagination.
To Unitarian Universalism, Jesus was a good moral teacher, but nothing more. He is not considered to be divine, and every miracle associated with Him is rejected as being outside of human reason. Most sayings of Jesus recorded in the Bible are regarded as embellishments on the part of the authors. Jesus did not die to save mankind from sin, as man is not a fallen sinner. Emphasis is placed on humankind's capacity for goodness. Sin is completely relative, and the term itself is rarely used. Man saves himself through personal improvement, salvation being a purely worldly experience, a "waking up" to the world around oneself. This is very important, for death is final. Most Unitarian Universalists deny the existence of an afterlife, so all we have on earth is all we'll ever get.
Unitarian Universalism has nothing in common with biblical Christianity. It is a false gospel; its teachings are contrary to the Bible, and its members strongly oppose traditional, biblical Christian beliefs (while purporting to be free of discrimination or prejudice of any kind). The Bible clearly refutes Unitarian Universalism on all the major points of its teachings.
Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
That being said......
Universalism is the belief that everyone will be saved. There are many people today who hold to the viewpoint of “Universal Salvation” - the idea that all men eventually end up in heaven with the Lord. Perhaps it is the thought of men and women living a life of eternal torment in hell that causes some to reject the teaching of Scripture on this issue. For some it is their over-emphasis on the love and compassion of Christ that lead them to believe that God will have mercy on every living soul. But the scriptures do teach that some men will spend an eternity in hell, while others an eternity in paradise with the Lord.
First of all, the proof that unredeemed men will dwell forever in hell. Jesus’ own words confirm that the time spent in heaven for the redeemed will last as long as the unredeemed in hell. Matthew 25:46 says, “And these [unredeemed] will go away into ETERNAL punishment, but the righteous into ETERNAL life” (emphasis mine). Some believe that those in hell will eventually cease to exist, but the Lord himself confirms that it will last forever. This "eternal fire" is mentioned previously in Matthew 25:41 as well. In Mark 9:44 Jesus speaks about hell as the "unquenchable fire." It will never go out because it will burn forever.
How does one avoid this "unquenchable fire"? Many people believe that all roads lead to heaven, or they consider that God is so full of love and mercy that He will allow all people into heaven. While God is certainly full of love and mercy, it was these qualities that lead Him into sending His Son, Jesus Christ to earth and to die on the cross for us. Jesus Christ is the exclusive door that leads to an eternity in heaven. Acts 4:12, “And there is salvation is no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” 1 Timothy 2:5, “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all …” In John 14:6, Jesus says, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 3:16, “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, the WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM should not perish but have eternal life.” If man chooses to reject God’s son, they do not meet the requirements for salvation (John 3:16,36).
With verses such as these, it becomes clear that Universalism and Universal Salvation is an anti-Biblical belief. Universalism does not line up with what scripture teaches. While many people today accuse Christians of being intolerant and “exclusive,” it is important to remember that these are the words of Christ Himself. Christianity did not develop these ideas on its own, Christians are simply stating what the Lord has already said. People choose to reject the message because they do not want to face up to their sin, and admit that they need the Lord to save them. To say that those who reject God’s provision of salvation through His Son will be saved is to belittle the holiness and justice of God and negate the need of Jesus’ sacrifice on our behalf.
So the simple answer to your question....No!
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The Foursquare Church
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 5/21/2007 8:07:19 AM
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oldmethuselah
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Hans,
C.S. Lewis has written a book that PRECISELY addresses this question!
Since it was written in the 1950s the style of language may be a little old, however, from a PURELY LOGICAL point of view, through a series of short imaginative "conversations" with characters in the book, the FOLLY of universalism is exposed.
George MacDonald, one of Lewis' favorite authors, was a universalist, yet, in this imaginative book, even he, MacDonald, addresses the reasons why it cannot be so...
The book called "The Great Divorce" is still in print...
The preface goes something like this...
"Some people say that ALL roads lead up the mountain (towards God), that there is, in fact, a GREAT MARRIAGE of Heaven and Hell...I hope through this short book to illustrate that nothing could be farther from the truth...that the two ways are IRRECONCILABLE OPPOSITES...hence the title "The Great DIVORCE" (between Heaven and Hell)"
I believe if you read this it would, as a LOT of Lewis' writings do, add CLARITY to your question and the thoughts expressed in this thread"
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 5/23/2007 4:17:52 PM
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Fwanger
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cfl777, excellent post! I don't see how there can be any other questions about it.
_____________________________
Often have I said, I will never doubt the salvation of any one, so long as I can but know that Christ has accepted me. C.H. Spurgeon "The Way of Salvation"
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 5/25/2007 1:09:20 AM
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HisbyHischoice
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I know someone who was a universalist and then became saved and is no longer a universalist. When she was a universalist Christ was not the only way. If someone is a universalist and Christ is not the only way, then no they can't be saved. But I don't think one can be in the truth and continue to believe what universalism teaches. That's like saying I believe some of the truth but not all of it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: HansC
Can a Universalist be saved? Can someone who holds to the belief of Universalism be saved? By universalism I mean the belief that ALL people will eventually end up in heaven, that a good and loving God would not condemn man to eternal darkness.
What do you guys think?
Hans
_____________________________
"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you." ---John 15:16
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 5/27/2007 12:48:42 AM
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OleFitzHi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HansC
Can a Universalist be saved? Can someone who holds to the belief of Universalism be saved? By universalism I mean the belief that ALL people will eventually end up in heaven, that a good and loving God would not condemn man to eternal darkness.
What do you guys think?
Hans
Can A Universalist be saved? Of course. In the same way, a Baptist or Catholic can be damned. Membership in a particular group does not guarantee or prohibit salvation.
Why? Because you can be a member of a group and still not agree with EVERY doctrinal point. I'm sure I don't agree with EVERY point of Baptist doctrine, yet I am a member. Also, so many people are ignorant of doctrine.
You might have thought that every citizen of Jericho would be damned. But they weren't. When it came to crunch time, Rahab sided with Jehovah. I sure He has His eternal eye on a Universalist or two and He will call them to faith in Christ when the time comes.
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 5/27/2007 8:26:52 AM
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armydude
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HansC
Can a Universalist be saved? Can a Satanist be saved? Can a muslim be saved? The answer to all of those questions is a resounding yes! Once a person receives Jesus as his personal Lord and Savior, he is saved according to the bible. That's a simplistic answer, but it's true.
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The heart of God is the Father. The face of God is Jesus. The voice of God is the Holy Ghost. But the hand of God is the church.
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 5/28/2007 7:39:29 AM
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floydette
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A Universalist does not necessarily not believe in Jesus. Some (if not many, I don't know) believe fully in Christ's work. There are people who are believe that God, in his love for his ultimate creation would somehow reach all men. Even if it be post-mor. It is the idea of God'd mercy without limits.
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 5/29/2007 11:21:59 PM
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cfl777
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quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
quote:
ORIGINAL: HansC
Can a Universalist be saved? Can a Satanist be saved? Can a muslim be saved? The answer to all of those questions is a resounding yes! Once a person receives Jesus as his personal Lord and Savior, he is saved according to the bible. That's a simplistic answer, but it's true.
Great view...didn't look at it that way, but...YES!!...That is correct!
_____________________________
CFL - Christ For Life!
The Foursquare Church
Trinity Bible College/Seminary
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 5/29/2007 11:25:06 PM
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cfl777
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quote:
ORIGINAL: floydette
A Universalist does not necessarily not believe in Jesus. Some (if not many, I don't know) believe fully in Christ's work. There are people who are believe that God, in his love for his ultimate creation would somehow reach all men. Even if it be post-mor. It is the idea of God'd mercy without limits.
This may be true however, they reject John 14:6, thus resulting in a lost soul!
_____________________________
CFL - Christ For Life!
The Foursquare Church
Trinity Bible College/Seminary
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 5/30/2007 7:00:02 AM
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floydette
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No, not all of them reject this. I know of a particular "famous" Universalist who did not reject that verse, nor Jesus.
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 5/30/2007 9:48:50 AM
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armydude
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How? I did a little research and this is what I pulled up for universalism; "the theological doctrine that all people will eventually be saved."
If all people will eventually be saved, then why would Jesus need to suffer? Why would He need to be crucified?
To say that all people will be saved goes directly against Jesus' words in John 14:6. If He is the way, the truth and the life (and He is), then nobody can come to the Father (either forgiven or to even request forgiveness) except through Jesus. This requires a personal choice. The two doctrines simply will not reconcile with each other.
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The heart of God is the Father. The face of God is Jesus. The voice of God is the Holy Ghost. But the hand of God is the church.
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 5/30/2007 9:53:30 AM
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P31W
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google "Christian Universalist"
I know some Christian Universalist. I do believe some of them are "saved" however have a hard time trying to connect God's holiness and love. If they have accepted Christ as their savior then they are saved. I know when I was first saved I would have probably failed the "trinity" test because I didn't fully understand that......let's get real I don't fully understand it now either. However I do believe if a person is saved they will 'grow' in their walk with the Lord and he will begin to correct these false beliefs they hold.
For some of these people that I know I believe they cannot come to terms with their loved ones who have died without Christ. For example their grandparents who were good people who loved them dearly and did sacrificial acts inorder to help them are now dead without Christ. I don't think they can comprehend how a loving God would allow their dearly loved grandparents to suffer eternal damnation in hell. That's even hard for someone like me to comprehend when I think of the "good people" I know who have rejected Christ.
I do "not' believe that people who preach and teach this view are saved.
I found this for you. It's from http://www.christian-universalism.com/faq/jesus-savior.html You will want to read the question and asnwer part as well.
God's Love Can Never Fail: The True Meaning of the Cross of Christ
Why did Jesus Christ have to die on the cross, if there is no eternal hell for sinners and unbelievers? This is perhaps the single most important question that Christian Universalists must answer. Many Christians believe that Jesus's sacficicial death enables God to forgive the sins of those who believe in him -- but those who do not hold the correct beliefs about Christ in this lifetime can never be forgiven, and must eternally remain separated from God in hell. If there is no good reason why Jesus had to be crucified other than to allow people to escape damnation, then perhaps God really does condemn non-Christians to burn forever in the torments of hell.
Fortunately, there is a good reason for the cross of Christ other than what fundamentalists teach. And this alternative explanation can even be found in the Bible. The reason for the crucifixion of Jesus Christ is that it proves that God's love is unfailing and conquers all evil. The cross is not a dividing line, permanently excluding some people from the love of their Creator. No, the cross is a ladder to heaven through which all people may eventually return to the Father who sent His Son, Lord Jesus, into our world. ....
< Message edited by P31W -- 5/30/2007 10:02:28 AM >
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