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China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/12/2008 12:25:48 PM
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eaglelady11
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Since I think that God is sovereign and nothing happens outside of His power, I can't help but think that God is up to something with the earthquake and the flood. I am not saying it's the end of the world or any of that, but I do think that this does open the door for Christian to go in and help these people and share the gospel. I do not think it is a coincidence. I feel bad for the death toll, but I read God's hand in this whole thing. What do y'all think?
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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/12/2008 12:49:17 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6771
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quote:
Since I think that God is sovereign and nothing happens outside of His power, I can't help but think that God is up to something with the earthquake and the flood. I am not saying it's the end of the world or any of that, but I do think that this does open the door for Christian to go in and help these people and share the gospel. I do not think it is a coincidence. I feel bad for the death toll, but I read God's hand in this whole thing. What do y'all think?
Well, I think God's hand is in everything ultimately, so it would follow that it is in these events as well.
As believers however, who eagerly anticipate Christ's coming, we have a tendency to ascribe to such events special significance - and, they may have, though of course no one can know the hour.
Whatever the case, one thing I often think about when I see these sort of events, is how Christ told us to regard tragedies of this sort in Luke 13:
Luke 13:1-5
Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices.
And Jesus said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate?
"I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
"Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem?
"I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."
So it would seem the message to take away is a check first on our own hearts, to see that we are prepared for the unexpected events that our often so imminent, and to warn others that there is never a guarantee that they will see tomorrow, and so now is the day of salvation.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/12/2008 1:49:40 PM
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CatholicCritter
Posts: 155
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quote:
ORIGINAL: eaglelady11
Since I think that God is sovereign and nothing happens outside of His power, I can't help but think that God is up to something with the earthquake and the flood. I am not saying it's the end of the world or any of that, but I do think that this does open the door for Christian to go in and help these people and share the gospel. I do not think it is a coincidence. I feel bad for the death toll, but I read God's hand in this whole thing. What do y'all think?
In any fallen, finite, created world, physical evil is part of the deal. God allows suffering and deprives us of the lesser good of pleasure in order to bring about a greater good. All that God does is good, including NOT miraculously interfering to deliver us from physical evils like earthquakes and cyclones.
_____________________________
http://saintunderconstruction.blogspot.com/
"There are not 100 people who hate the Catholic Church, yet there are millions who hate what they believe the Catholic Church to be." --Archbishop Fulton Sheen
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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/12/2008 1:55:17 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1383
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quote:
ORIGINAL: eaglelady11
Since I think that God is sovereign and nothing happens outside of His power, I can't help but think that God is up to something with the earthquake and the flood. I am not saying it's the end of the world or any of that, but I do think that this does open the door for Christian to go in and help these people and share the gospel. I do not think it is a coincidence. I feel bad for the death toll, but I read God's hand in this whole thing. What do y'all think?
I don't believe that God deliberately caused this. I think he put us in a world where this stuff happens on occasion. Perhaps he had a hand in not intervening to stop it, and I don't think he takes pleasure in these events.
I doubt the Myanmar Typhoon will hurt the government. In all likelihood, the government will continue to operate until it picks a fight with the wrong country. (India?)
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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/12/2008 2:29:54 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6771
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quote:
I don't believe that God deliberately caused this. I think he put us in a world where this stuff happens on occasion. Perhaps he had a hand in not intervening to stop it, and I don't think he takes pleasure in these events.
While I agree He doesn’t ‘take pleasure’ in these events, I think it would be pretty hard to say this stuff ‘just happens’ and continue to have a God who has any substantive power at all. It would be very hard to trust such a God.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/12/2008 4:18:59 PM
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blessedinnyc
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
While I agree He doesn’t ‘take pleasure’ in these events, I think it would be pretty hard to say this stuff ‘just happens’ and continue to have a God who has any substantive power at all. It would be very hard to trust such a God.
Well, this comes down to whether God has the power to control human actions, IMHO.
I believe that sin is responsible for these natural disasters- not God. Perhaps God was responsible for putting us on this planet, but our understanding of meteorology and physics seems to suggest that God doesn't just start blowing and a hurricane appears, or starts stomping his feet and earthquakes happen.
These events are the result of natural processes, which happen as a consequence of the broken world we live in. To say that God directly caused a typhoon that could have taken the lives of innocent infants and children is to say that God isn't bound by morality. If God takes innocent life, then maybe he lies too, and if he can lie, why should we trust anything that the Bible says?
I think Augustine had an interesting approach to this. He said that the whole human essence was contained in Adam when he chose to sin, and thus, we also bear responsibility for it. Thus, we are responsible for living in this world, and God does not play a direct role in causing disasters. Just my humble opinion, though.
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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/12/2008 4:24:39 PM
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1dblthnk02
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
These events are the result of natural processes, which happen as a consequence of the broken world we live in.
The world has always been a tumultuous place, both before and since mankind appeared. I don't know if this indicates anything about God or man, but rather about the nature of things as they have always been.
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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/12/2008 5:23:22 PM
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blessedinnyc
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
These events are the result of natural processes, which happen as a consequence of the broken world we live in.
The world has always been a tumultuous place, both before and since mankind appeared. I don't know if this indicates anything about God or man, but rather about the nature of things as they have always been.
Well, I think it indicates that much of the way the universe is today was determined before the universe as we know it was created. For me, it leads to a 14 billion year gap in Genesis, but that's a whole 'nother story.
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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/12/2008 5:50:06 PM
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eaglelady11
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well, the earth and everything in it will eventually pass away. I do see God's sovereign hand in this, but realize that the physical world decays.
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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/12/2008 7:58:56 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Well, this comes down to whether God has the power to control human actions, IMHO.
I believe that sin is responsible for these natural disasters- not God. Perhaps God was responsible for putting us on this planet, but our understanding of meteorology and physics seems to suggest that God doesn't just start blowing and a hurricane appears, or starts stomping his feet and earthquakes happen.
These events are the result of natural processes, which happen as a consequence of the broken world we live in. To say that God directly caused a typhoon that could have taken the lives of innocent infants and children is to say that God isn't bound by morality. If God takes innocent life, then maybe he lies too, and if he can lie, why should we trust anything that the Bible says?
I think Augustine had an interesting approach to this. He said that the whole human essence was contained in Adam when he chose to sin, and thus, we also bear responsibility for it. Thus, we are responsible for living in this world, and God does not play a direct role in causing disasters. Just my humble opinion, though.
Well, I agree actually – and I think that is indicated by the verse I cited. Humans, as result of their sinfulness don’t ‘deserve’ to have life, and so every day we are alive is a product of God’s grace – and the knowledge that this isn’t necessarily an eternal condition should be motivation for us to turn away from sin and toward God, and urge others to do the same.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/12/2008 8:37:39 PM
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SonInMe1
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I wonder if its the world that is getting more "dangerous" or its our perception through extensive media coverage of such events.
I pick the latter.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/13/2008 1:26:43 AM
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wing2000
Posts: 872
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quote:
Since I think that God is sovereign and nothing happens outside of His power, I can't help but think that God is up to something with the earthquake and the flood. I am not saying it's the end of the world or any of that, but I do think that this does open the door for Christian to go in and help these people and share the gospel. I do not think it is a coincidence. I feel bad for the death toll, but I read God's hand in this whole thing. What do y'all think?
I wonder what God thinks when the powerful nations of the world let a tin horn military government stop relief efforts?
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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/13/2008 2:49:42 AM
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scutus
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quote:
but I do think that this does open the door for Christian to go in and help these people and share the gospel. I think you should just stick to the helping. Thousands of families are devastated and are coping with the grief in their own manner (Buddhist, folk, non-religious) and I'm pretty sure they could do without missionaries coming in and sharing the Gospel, especially when they're told that their loved ones may have died without being saved.
< Message edited by scutus -- 5/13/2008 2:55:49 AM >
_____________________________
"Take your son."
"I have two sons."
"Your only son."
"Each of them is the only son of his mother."
"The one whom you love."
"I love them both."
"Isaac."
-God to Abraham, according to a Jewish midrash.
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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/13/2008 9:56:18 AM
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EStan
Posts: 190
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quote:
ORIGINAL: scutus
quote:
but I do think that this does open the door for Christian to go in and help these people and share the gospel. I think you should just stick to the helping. Thousands of families are devastated and are coping with the grief in their own manner (Buddhist, folk, non-religious) and I'm pretty sure they could do without missionaries coming in and sharing the Gospel, especially when they're told that their loved ones may have died without being saved.
I disagree. When people's lives are most shattered, they are most in need of the TRUTH of Jesus Christ.
quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
I believe that sin is responsible for these natural disasters- not God. Perhaps God was responsible for putting us on this planet, but our understanding of meteorology and physics seems to suggest that God doesn't just start blowing and a hurricane appears, or starts stomping his feet and earthquakes happen.
On that day, when evening had come, [Jesus] said to them, "Let us go across to the other side." And leaving the crowd, they took him with them in the boat, just as he was. And other boats were with him. And a great windstorm arose, and the waves were breaking into the boat, so that the boat was already filling. But he was in the stern, asleep on the cushion. And they woke him and said to him, "Teacher, do you not care that we are perishing?" And he awoke and rebuked the wind and said to the sea, "Peace! Be still!" And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm. He said to them, "Why are you so afraid? Have you still no faith?" And they were filled with great fear and said to one another, "Who then is this, that even wind and sea obey him?" (Mark 4:35-41 ESV)
_____________________________
Eternal Father, grant that through the tears of repentance I may see more clearly the brightness and glories of the saving cross.
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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/13/2008 10:33:58 AM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1383
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quote:
On that day, when evening had come, [Jesus] said to them, "Let us go across to the other side." And leaving the crowd, they took him with them in the boat, just as he was. And other boats were with him. And a great windstorm arose, and the waves were breaking into the boat, so that the boat was already filling. But he was in the stern, asleep on the cushion. And they woke him and said to him, "Teacher, do you not care that we are perishing?" And he awoke and rebuked the wind and said to the sea, "Peace! Be still!" And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm. He said to them, "Why are you so afraid? Have you still no faith?" And they were filled with great fear and said to one another, "Who then is this, that even wind and sea obey him?" (Mark 4:35-41 ESV)
Exactly. You'll notice that there was no obvious miracle that caused this hurricane.
God does not cause destruction that takes innocent life. This hurricane is ultimately the natural consequence of sin.
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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/13/2008 10:36:07 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 6771
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quote:
I wonder what God thinks when the powerful nations of the world let a tin horn military government stop relief efforts?
What are you suggesting we do?
It happened in Cambodia, it happened in Rwanda, it's happening in Darfur.
Acting against such governments requires a actions that at least half our country opposes.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/13/2008 12:42:30 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 1535
Joined: 10/1/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Since I think that God is sovereign and nothing happens outside of His power, I can't help but think that God is up to something with the earthquake and the flood. I am not saying it's the end of the world or any of that, but I do think that this does open the door for Christian to go in and help these people and share the gospel. I do not think it is a coincidence. I feel bad for the death toll, but I read God's hand in this whole thing. What do y'all think?
Well, I think God's hand is in everything ultimately, so it would follow that it is in these events as well.
As believers however, who eagerly anticipate Christ's coming, we have a tendency to ascribe to such events special significance - and, they may have, though of course no one can know the hour.
Whatever the case, one thing I often think about when I see these sort of events, is how Christ told us to regard tragedies of this sort in Luke 13:
Luke 13:1-5
Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices.
And Jesus said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate?
"I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
"Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem?
"I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."
So it would seem the message to take away is a check first on our own hearts, to see that we are prepared for the unexpected events that our often so imminent, and to warn others that there is never a guarantee that they will see tomorrow, and so now is the day of salvation.
That was a very insightful post on this tragic calamity. That was an excellent Scripture quote to include as well.
_____________________________
Three Nails to protect us!
And Justice for all!
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/13/2008 12:52:12 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2168
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God's ways are higher than our ways and he acts in ways we do not understand.
Isa 45:5 - 7 (ESV) 5 I am the Lord, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me, 6 that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the Lord, and there is no other. 7 I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things.
Yes, this is a tragedy. And, yes, evil, tin-horn dictators rule in this place. But do you think by siting down and talking with them they will go away quietly? They rule by force and the only way to remove them will be by force; and to do this, innocent people will die. But having innorcent people starve to death is also repugnant. Quite a quandry for a liberal.
_____________________________
The grace of God is infinite and eternal. As it had no beginning, so it can have no end, and being an attribute of God, it is as boundless as infinitude.
A. W. Tozer (1897–1963)
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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/13/2008 12:56:16 PM
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mapachito13
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quote:
ORIGINAL: scutus
I'm pretty sure they could do without missionaries coming in and sharing the Gospel, especially when they're told that their loved ones may have died without being saved.
That "missionary" would become a martyr mighty quick if he told me that drivel. IMO that implies that God has predestined people to hell. They had the bad luck of being born in the wrong country or into the wrong faith.
Is that what should drive a person to remain faithful to their god (or religion) or to Jesus? Fear of eternal damnation? Or is there more to Christianity than that? I think there is more because we do not think the way God thinks!
_____________________________
Three Nails to protect us!
And Justice for all!
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/13/2008 1:01:22 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6771
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quote:
That "missionary" would become a martyr mighty quick if he told me that drivel. IMO that implies that God has predestined people to hell. They had the bad luck of being born in the wrong country or into the wrong faith.
Is that what should drive a person to remain faithful to their god (or religion) or to Jesus? Fear of eternal damnation? Or is there more to Christianity than that? I think there is more because we do not think the way God thinks!
Yeah, it's not a missionaries job to run around telling people the fate of their relatives, a fate they couldn't possibly know; it's their job to be witness in their service to others, and communicate with the them the good news of the Gospel (which is, come to think of it, redundant).
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/13/2008 1:11:25 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 1535
Joined: 10/1/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
That "missionary" would become a martyr mighty quick if he told me that drivel. IMO that implies that God has predestined people to hell. They had the bad luck of being born in the wrong country or into the wrong faith.
Is that what should drive a person to remain faithful to their god (or religion) or to Jesus? Fear of eternal damnation? Or is there more to Christianity than that? I think there is more because we do not think the way God thinks!
Yeah, it's not a missionaries job to run around telling people the fate of their relatives, a fate they couldn't possibly know; it's their job to be witness in their service to others, and communicate with the them the good news of the Gospel (which is, come to think of it, redundant).
And I am sure through the selfless service that these missionaries would perform for these people that they would convert more without even saying the name Jesus. Like Francis of Assisi said, "Preach the Gospel at all times, and sometimes even use words!"
_____________________________
Three Nails to protect us!
And Justice for all!
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/13/2008 4:14:21 PM
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jazzact13
Posts: 550
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quote:
And I am sure through the selfless service that these missionaries would perform for these people that they would convert more without even saying the name Jesus.
Convert without even saying the name Jesus? Convert to what?
Please, that nonsense.
quote:
Like Francis of Assisi said, "Preach the Gospel at all times, and sometimes even use words!"
And if Francis never used words to preach the Gospel, then the Gospel was never preached by him.
_____________________________
there is no justice in the rhetoric of class hatred
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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/14/2008 4:27:35 AM
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mapachito13
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jazzact13
quote:
And I am sure through the selfless service that these missionaries would perform for these people that they would convert more without even saying the name Jesus.
Convert without even saying the name Jesus? Convert to what?
Please, that nonsense.
quote:
Like Francis of Assisi said, "Preach the Gospel at all times, and sometimes even use words!"
And if Francis never used words to preach the Gospel, then the Gospel was never preached by him.
I guess he knew he was going to be judged by the criteria of Matthew 25:31-46 because not "Everyone who says Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven" Matthew 7:21-23
A tree is known by its fruit! Matthew 7:20
_____________________________
Three Nails to protect us!
And Justice for all!
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/14/2008 10:25:47 AM
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jazzact13
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quote:
I guess he knew he was going to be judged by the criteria of Matthew 25:31-46 because not "Everyone who says Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven" Matthew 7:21-23
And we are also told "If you will confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved".
Again, if Francis or anyone else is going to just 'act nice', then they're not preaching the Gospel.
quote:
A tree is known by its fruit! Matthew 7:20
And what is the fruit?
_____________________________
there is no justice in the rhetoric of class hatred
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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/14/2008 1:32:36 PM
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ObviousLee
Posts: 300
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quote:
ORIGINAL: eaglelady11
Since I think that God is sovereign and nothing happens outside of His power, I can't help but think that God is up to something with the earthquake and the flood. I am not saying it's the end of the world or any of that, but I do think that this does open the door for Christian to go in and help these people and share the gospel. I do not think it is a coincidence. I feel bad for the death toll, but I read God's hand in this whole thing. What do y'all think?
Yes, but I believe these very same types of events have been happening for centuries. Expertise in navigation has existed a long time. Notice how it's the poorer countries that tend to get his by cyclones, Tsunamis, etc? I think way back when, it was figured out by the more powerful sea-faring nations what pieces of land were less likely to get hit. When territories were carved out, the more powerful took the prime real estate. I think we can see this with the colonization of Asian countries and territories by Europeans. Much of Asia is exposed to water. Yet economic icons like Hong Kong seem relatively safe. All nations will be judged in the last day even if they avoid natural disaster on Earth.
_____________________________
The buck stops here!
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