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Empirical evidence for young earth - 4/7/2008 1:18:08 PM
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drj11
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We have a sister thread, Empirical evidence for evolution. So I thought I would start the reverse. What is the empirical evidence for a young earth?
Rules: The Bible doesn't count as evidence for this discussion, we are simply talking about empirical scientific evidence for a young earth. It should be understood why science cant take Biblical passages as scientific proof. No pot shots at evolution, etc. This is not about disproving evolution or disproving the big bang etc, its about providing concrete evidence that would lead one to believe the Earth is about 6k-10k years old, or that life came into existence nearly or fully evolved, even if you dont take literal interpretation of scripture into account.
< Message edited by drj11 -- 4/7/2008 1:24:27 PM >
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RE: Empirical evidence for young earth - 4/7/2008 1:52:13 PM
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PromiseLander
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As I am no scientist, I took these from some random website...
#1) The Sun is shrinking at the rate of 5 ft/hr. The Earth is 93 million miles away from the Sun. In less than 20 million years, the Sun would have been so large that it would touch the surface of the Earth. Further, if the Sun had more mass, the gravity pull would be much larger and the Earth would have been sucked into the Sun long before 20 million years.
#2) Short-period comets, like the Haley Comet in our solar system, whose life expectancy is only 10,000 years old, would have been blown apart by the solar winds years ago if they were older.
#3) Absence of fossilized meteorites in different layers of strata on Earth proves that Evolution is a farse. According to evolution, different layers of strata were exposed for billions and billions of years, but only the top layers of the Earth have fossilized meteorites, and that in abundance.
#4) The Moon is receding from the Earth every year. If the Earth were billions of years old, then the Moon would have been too close to the Earth. According to the inverse square law, the tides would have been so strong that everything would have died twice a day!
#5) Jupiter, Saturn, and its little moon "I-O" are cooling off very rapidly, but they are still very hot. If billions of years had passed, they should have been cold already.
#6) The Earth's magnetic field is decreasing half a life every 830 years. This magnetic field can't be more than 10,000 years; there is no way to reverse it.
#7) Look at the amount of lava and volcanoes on Earth. The Volume of lava ÷ Rate of lava coming out of the volcanoes = Amount of years. If the Earth was billions of years old, there would be much more lava on the surface of the planet.
#8) Look at the amount of minerals in the sea. The amount of minerals in the sea ÷ Influx of minerals into the sea = Amount of years. This shows only a few thousand years.
#9) Look at the formation rate of Helium in the Atmosphere. This shows the Earth could be at the most 0.2 million years -- God created the Earth with some Helium already.
#10) The Erosion Rate of the continents is so large that the Earth would have eroded to sea level in 14 million years.
#11) The top soil formation on Earth is formed at a steady rate which shows only a few thousand years.
#12) Oil Pressure would have leaked out if the earth were billions of years old. Scientists can get garbage and turn into oil in a lab in 20 minutes.
#13) The size of the Mississippi river delta ÷ The amount of mud being deposited = The time the delta has been in existence. This shows less than 30,000 years old. Noah's flood deposited 80% of the delta in a few days.
#14) The Earth slows down as it spins at a rate of a thousandth of a second. In a million years, the earth would have been spinning too fast for life on earth.
#15) The largest stalactites and stone formation in caves around the earth only show a few thousand years, like in the Sequoia Cave in Tennessee. Stalactites grow rapidly, at a rate of 1 inch every year; the largest stalactite shows to be about 4,400 years old. In Florida, there are stalactites of 16 inches growing from an electrical wire.
#16) The Sahara desert is expanding. Once the soil is depleted, it is irreversible. The expansion rate is 4 miles per year at the present moment. At a rate of ¼ mile per year, the age of the Earth would come to about 4,400 years old.
#17) The seas are getting saltier every year. If the Earth was billions of years old, the oceans would be too salty for any form of life by now.
#18) The current world population is 5½ billion. If we started with 8 people 4,000 years ago, this would give us a population of 5 or 6 billion.
#19) The oldest coral reef is 4,200 years old in Australia. Remember that Noah's Flood was about 4,400 years ago.
#20) The oldest known historical date is 6,000 years ago. The oldest written form is very complex; humans were not stupid.
#21) The oldest living tree is 4,300 years old.
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RE: Empirical evidence for young earth - 4/7/2008 2:17:57 PM
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essentialsaltes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
As I am no scientist, I took these from some random website...
#1) The Sun is shrinking at the rate of 5 ft/hr. The Earth is 93 million miles away from the Sun. In less than 20 million years, the Sun would have been so large that it would touch the surface of the Earth.
Oh, you creationists and your uniformitarian assumptions! However, the sun is not shrinking at 5 ft/hr.
quote:
#2) Short-period comets, like the Haley Comet in our solar system, whose life expectancy is only 10,000 years old, would have been blown apart by the solar winds years ago if they were older.
New comets come in from the Oort Cloud/Kuiper Belt.
quote:
#3) Absence of fossilized meteorites in different layers of strata on Earth proves that Evolution is a farse. According to evolution, different layers of strata were exposed for billions and billions of years, but only the top layers of the Earth have fossilized meteorites, and that in abundance.
What is a fossilized meteorite? They're already rocks to begin with. Anyway, meteorites are indeed found in older rock strata. You should check these things for factual accuracy; "I took these from some random website" is not very convincing.
< Message edited by essentialsaltes -- 4/7/2008 2:29:44 PM >
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Empirical evidence for young earth - 4/7/2008 3:03:21 PM
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unclemonkey
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ORIGINAL:drj11quote:
Rules: The Bible doesn't count as evidence for this discussion,
“The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.” – Psalms 14:1a
_____________________________
"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me." - John 5:46
Visit my home church.
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RE: Empirical evidence for young earth - 4/7/2008 3:48:07 PM
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MandaMoo
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I recently went to a seminar presented by Ken Ham on the creation theory. I went with the view that it was a bit of an odd theory he had as all through school we are taught about evalution and the big bang theory as if it is fact but the only actual fact that they actually have is that it is a "theory" although we are led to believe it is true. I was a bit sceptical but to be honest he blew me away and alot of what he said made total sense. I would definately advise people to listen to what he has to say. One of the most convincing things he actually said is that the earth was made the way it says in genisis verses 1-11 and if we say that it was made otherwise then we are actually saying that GOD is lying which would in turn make the whole basis of the bible a lie.......
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RE: Empirical evidence for young earth - 4/7/2008 3:49:53 PM
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PromiseLander
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Hey I'm an Architect, not a scientist - they looked good to me.
I suppose the best evidence I can give you for creation and a young earth are the same physical evidences that many scientists mistakingly use for the purposes of the religion of evolution. The evidences are the same, it's all in your paradigm.
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RE: Empirical evidence for young earth - 4/7/2008 4:09:52 PM
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essentialsaltes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MandaMoo
One of the most convincing things he actually said is that the earth was made the way it says in genisis verses 1-11 and if we say that it was made otherwise then we are actually saying that GOD is lying which would in turn make the whole basis of the bible a lie.......
You may have found that very convincing, but it is not material evidence.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Empirical evidence for young earth - 4/7/2008 4:16:06 PM
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essentialsaltes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
Hey I'm an Architect, not a scientist - they looked good to me.
I suppose the best evidence I can give you for creation and a young earth are the same physical evidences that many scientists mistakingly use for the purposes of the religion of evolution. The evidences are the same, it's all in your paradigm.
Let's take the same evidence then. Zircons, by their chemical nature, exclude lead atoms when they are formed. But natural zircons often contain both uranium atoms and lead atoms. The half-life for the process that turns uranium to lead is around a billion years. Furthermore, the isotopes of the lead atoms are precisely the ones that result from radioactive decay, while different lead isotopes that exist in nature are not found in the zircons. How does this physical evidence point to a young earth?
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Empirical evidence for young earth - 4/7/2008 4:18:39 PM
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MandaMoo
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No your right there is no actual evidence for the creation theory but then as I said the big bang is also just a theory. I must say it's hard to get my head around the thought that this is actually a young earth rather than the billions of years we are led to believe, but on the other hand as the bible is supposed to be the word of god therefore I can't get my head around the fact that it must be true because it says so. It's easier to believe that the earth is young rather than god has lied... why would he??
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RE: Empirical evidence for young earth - 4/7/2008 4:19:34 PM
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PromiseLander
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I've just been given a verse...
1 Corinthians 2:14 (New King James Version)
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
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RE: Empirical evidence for young earth - 4/7/2008 4:21:18 PM
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MandaMoo
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OK you've lost me there.... I'm confused enough without throwing Zircons in the mix
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RE: Empirical evidence for young earth - 4/7/2008 4:21:28 PM
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Bettawrekonize
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
#1) The Sun is shrinking at the rate of 5 ft/hr. The Earth is 93 million miles away from the Sun. In less than 20 million years, the Sun would have been so large that it would touch the surface of the Earth. Further, if the Sun had more mass, the gravity pull would be much larger and the Earth would have been sucked into the Sun long before 20 million years.
According to wikipedia, the sun is in equilibrium, but according to other sources ICR cites, it is shrinking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun
http://www.icr.org/article/165/
Also, an argument from increased solar output
http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v15/i2/faintsun.asp
quote:
ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
New comets come in from the Oort Cloud/Kuiper Belt.
New comets are speculated to form this way.
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RE: Empirical evidence for young earth - 4/7/2008 4:21:56 PM
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PromiseLander
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That decay thing is actually a common argument... You can't see that those elements were created at the same time with varrying levels of decay? Just because we can calculate how long it takes for half-life, that doesn't mean we can use that same evidence to turn the clock back. Now THAT'S a big evolutionist assumption.
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RE: Empirical evidence for young earth - 4/7/2008 4:23:42 PM
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PromiseLander
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Can't we debate the usefullness of steel flitches for garage door headers in residential construction? At least that would be open and closed pretty quick. Whew!
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RE: Empirical evidence for young earth - 4/7/2008 4:47:55 PM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MandaMoo
No your right there is no actual evidence for the creation theory but then as I said the big bang is also just a theory. I must say it's hard to get my head around the thought that this is actually a young earth rather than the billions of years we are led to believe, but on the other hand as the bible is supposed to be the word of god therefore I can't get my head around the fact that it must be true because it says so. It's easier to believe that the earth is young rather than god has lied... why would he??
YEC is "easier to believe" because it removes the unpleasantness of having to think about ambiguities. It makes everything seem black and white. And the first clue that YEC is off base is that the proponents make it clear that the Bible is all-or-nothing. If you doubt YEC, then you ditch the Bible. Look at Genesis 3: 8-9 literally.
Since God doesn't lie, why would He make the earth appear older to so many? There's no scriptural justification for a deception. It's more logical that Genesis creation wasn't written as literal account as we understand it. It's not a science book, people.
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Wenn Sie so intelligent sind, warum Sie hier sind?
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RE: Empirical evidence for young earth - 4/7/2008 4:54:07 PM
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essentialsaltes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MandaMoo
No your right there is no actual evidence for the creation theory but then as I said the big bang is also just a theory.
The big bang is indeed a theory, but there is plenty of evidence for it. In science, a theory "is a logically self-consistent model or framework for describing the behavior of a related set of natural or social phenomena. It originates from or is supported by experimental evidence." No theory in science is 'just' a theory in the everyday sense of the word theory. Theory is as certain and strong as it gets in science.
As you say, Creationism has no actual evidence, and is not a scientific theory.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Empirical evidence for young earth - 4/7/2008 4:56:34 PM
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MandaMoo
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Well if I wasn't confused before I sure am now
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RE: Empirical evidence for young earth - 4/7/2008 5:01:54 PM
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essentialsaltes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bettawrekonize
according to other sources ICR cites, it is shrinking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun
http://www.icr.org/article/165/
Those citations are all from the 1970s. The 1979 Eddy and Boornazian paper that started it all is dealt with in my previous link.
quote:
Also, an argument from increased solar output
http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v15/i2/faintsun.asp
This is not an argument for a young earth. Not part of drj's rules.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Empirical evidence for young earth - 4/7/2008 5:06:25 PM
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essentialsaltes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
Just because we can calculate how long it takes for half-life, that doesn't mean we can use that same evidence to turn the clock back. Now THAT'S a big evolutionist assumption.
Yes, but what assumption can YEC make in order to use this as evidence of a young earth? At best, you are saying that this dating method simply doesn't work, and we don't know how old the zircons are. That is not the same as providing positive evidence for a young earth.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Empirical evidence for young earth - 4/7/2008 5:07:55 PM
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essentialsaltes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MandaMoo
Well if I wasn't confused before I sure am now
Sorry, MandaMoo, it wasn't my intention. If you want clarification, ask questions.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Empirical evidence for young earth - 4/7/2008 5:10:31 PM
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Bettawrekonize
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quote:
ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
Those citations are all from the 1970s.
...
This is not an argument for a young earth. Not part of drj's rules.
I was just providing relevant information to PromiseLander 's post.
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RE: Empirical evidence for young earth - 4/7/2008 5:17:11 PM
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MandaMoo
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Thats OK I'm new to all this and find the whole of the old testement all a bit confusing.
As I said before the seminar I went to was very impressive although after being to the natural history museum recently I wasnt particularly convinced that dinosaurs would have been on the ark
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MandaMoo xXx
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RE: Empirical evidence for young earth - 4/7/2008 9:19:15 PM
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unclemonkey
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ORIGINAL:MandaMooquote:
Well if I wasn't confused before I sure am now
The only way to resolve the confusion is to decide whom to believe, God or man.
God’s word gives us an unambiguous age of only thousands of years. If you believe God then you accept that any interpretation of more than thousands of years is a misinterpretation of the evidence.
If you reject the authority of scripture then you are locked into the currently accepted materialistic paradigm.
_____________________________
"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me." - John 5:46
Visit my home church.
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RE: Empirical evidence for young earth - 4/7/2008 9:24:27 PM
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Nothingman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unclemonkey
ORIGINAL:drj11quote:
Rules: The Bible doesn't count as evidence for this discussion,
“The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.” – Psalms 14:1a
wow...
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RE: Empirical evidence for young earth - 4/7/2008 9:25:52 PM
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Nothingman
Posts: 134
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quote:
I would definately advise people to listen to what he has to say. One of the most convincing things he actually said is that the earth was made the way it says in genisis verses 1-11 and if we say that it was made otherwise then we are actually saying that GOD is lying which would in turn make the whole basis of the bible a lie.......
No it means your interpretation of the Bible is wrong.
Your statement is a completely false dichotomy...
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