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Evolution or Creation in school? How about neither? - 10/1/2008 5:02:55 PM
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d4nnyb0y02
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Well, not neither... but I hope I got your attention. Shouldn't Creationism and Evolution BOTH be taught as an ELECTIVE course in public schools? I think we should stop trying to push for it to be taught *also* and start pushing for NEITHER TO BE TAUGHT, but rather, offered as an elective in public schools, just like art, or wood shop, or electricity, or auto...
Would this not not settle all the problems? Evolution does not have to be applied to the various sciences to be understood. Neither Creation or Evolution must be applied to the sciences in order for those sciences to stand on their own.
A teaching of the Theory of Evolution, though highly ingrained into the minds of many educators, is not necessary for all of the sciences to be taught.
Zoology stands on its own. We can still study the various life forms and understand how they function anatomically. We do this by literally observing, studying, and applying thought to tangible animal bodies.
Anatomy stands on its own. This is the study of the anatomic body. We do this by literally observing, studying, and applying thought to tangible bodies.
Genetics stands on its own. We do this by literally observing, studying, and applying thought to "tangible" genetic code.
Chemistry stands on its own. We do this by literally observing, studying, and applying thought to tangible chemicals and elements.
Mathematics stands on its own. We do this by literally observing, studying, and applying thought to "tangible" numbers in mathematics.
Biology stands on its own. We do this by literally observing, studying, and applying thought to tangible biological life.
None of these sciences (or any science -- the study of whatever) require a belief that we evolved over millions of years or that we were created by so-and-so. To say otherwise I believe is silly. Both theories are useless as it comes to studying and observing tangible science and the facts that we observe within the various sciences.
True, one *could* apply evolution to those sciences... one *could* also apply creation to those sciences, but neither MUST be extrapolated from either. The sciences stand on their own. The sciences existed long before the Theory of Evolution, and long before there was a debate about Creation.
Doesn't it make sense that NEITHER should be taught in the sciences, but rather reserved as an elective, in which case BOTH should be OFFERED?
< Message edited by d4nnyb0y02 -- 10/1/2008 5:09:57 PM >
_____________________________
OSAS is the Gospel.
(Gal 1:6;5:4) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace
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RE: Evolution or Creation in school? How about neither? - 10/1/2008 5:54:07 PM
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delete123
Posts: 991
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I believe in evolution and believe it was part of God's plan. I may not believe in it maybe the way some evolutionist do, but do think evolution was and is neccessary.
Take the Wool Mammoth for example today known as the Elephant. In order for the Wooly to survive he would have to shed his fur because of the climate he moved to.
Our human bodies adjust to the climate, when we live in strong environment of cold weather our blood thickens which help us endure the climate. When we transfer to a warmer climate our blood thins so we can adjust to that areas climate. Our bodies evolve due to the circumstance given as far as climate .
This does not exclude other things that God has created as maybe you are not aware that Trees and all other creatures created have their own DNA. Trees also have veins like humans and also have effects from the sun such as photosynthesis in which some are sensitive which creates the changing of the leaves.
To take this learning away I believe would be detrimental to ones growth.
Not only are you trying to take away their freedom, but also you are taking away some of the essentials of things that God has created by limiting one's mind.
You are on the lines of a one way thinking, well narrowed mindedness never created some of the cures of a vast diseases that we are *blessed* to have today because of some folks interest in God beautiful creation and how they work in sync.
We are totally connected as He has created and for His Glory
Just my 2 cents
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RE: Evolution or Creation in school? How about neither? - 10/1/2008 6:19:29 PM
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DuckTalk
Posts: 228
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Every thing that is taught us in school is taught with a "slant". Take a history lesson on the Civil War in Maine and then take the same class in Georgia and you will see the "slant" I refer to.
For the most part, lessons in public school are worth no more than the paper they are written on. Who gives a hoot how old a rock is or if dinasaurs roamed the earth or aliens, if Thomas Jefferson was a great President or a whoremonger? Let the schools teach whatever their culture mandates and let the parents choose which school they wish their child to be misguided in, but for God's sake, teach children your truth at home. Don't leave it to and don't blame it on the schools.
They only do what they are "governed" to do.
_____________________________
Sufferin' sassafrass. The nerve of some people, profitting from other people's miseries.
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RE: Evolution or Creation in school? How about neither? - 10/1/2008 6:42:21 PM
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delete123
Posts: 991
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quote:
ORIGINAL: norak
Every thing that is taught us in school is taught with a "slant". Take a history lesson on the Civil War in Maine and then take the same class in Georgia and you will see the "slant" I refer to.
For the most part, lessons in public school are worth no more than the paper they are written on. Who gives a hoot how old a rock is or if dinasaurs roamed the earth or aliens, if Thomas Jefferson was a great President or a whoremonger? Let the schools teach whatever their culture mandates and let the parents choose which school they wish their child to be misguided in, but for God's sake, teach children your truth at home. Don't leave it to and don't blame it on the schools.
They only do what they are "governed" to do.
I went to a private Christian school from 4th thru 9th grade
So don't put your "blame" on just a public school system.
I do not think there is a fault with what is taught, but in how one may perceive it. Like many of those who read the bible.
It is certainly in many case in how one perceives the answer
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RE: Evolution or Creation in school? How about neither? - 10/1/2008 9:57:43 PM
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KaseyTom
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Evolution is science. Creationism is religion. Science is taught in science classes. Religion is taught in religion classes.
The Theory of Evolution is the foundation for many of the biological sciences. Teaching it required as a prerequisite for further studies.
There is no problem. There is no conflict. Evolution is science. Creationism is religion. Science class. Religion class.
Class over.
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RE: Evolution or Creation in school? How about neither? - 10/2/2008 9:35:33 AM
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d4nnyb0y02
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KaseyTom
Evolution is science. Creationism is religion. Science is taught in science classes. Religion is taught in religion classes.
The Theory of Evolution is the foundation for many of the biological sciences. Teaching it required as a prerequisite for further studies.
There is no problem. There is no conflict. Evolution is science. Creationism is religion. Science class. Religion class.
Class over.
I'm sorry, but you are incorrect. The Theory of Evolution is what a person believes, and what a person *reads into science*. I know it is a mantra that has been being said over and over for a long time now, and many are brainwashed into thinking the Theory of Evolution is a science, and therefore it is diffictult for many to seperate them, but they do not have to be together. You choose to put them together because that is what you choose to believe. The Theory of Evolution doesn't belong in science class, it belongs in an elective course study for people who want to take it. You don't have to teach that you *believe* we evolved over millions of years in order to accurately and thuroughly teach the tangible facts of anatomy, biology, chemisty, physicology, zoology, genetics, physics... etc... the Theory (belief) of Evolution (that we all evolved over millions of years, from apes) is completely and entirely unnecessary to the furthering of education in dealing with the "cold hard facts" that are tangible to those who are learning.
The Theory of Evolution belongs in a philosophy class, or otherwise, an elective. The Theory of Evolution in and of itself is completely useless when it comes to actually studying and observing how things work--as is Creationism. A construction worker, a doctor, a teacher, a lawyer, a bus driver, a chemist, a biologist, though they may *choose* to *believe* that we evolved over millions of years (The Theory of Evolution), it is in no way *necessary* or *beneficial* to believe it in order to perform the task at hand. A genetisist does not have to believe we evolved over millions of years in order to manipulate and study the *tangible facts* before them. The understanding that things change over time (evolution) is understood by all people who are interested in science, but the Theory of Evolution that tells us we have been evolving over millions of years is a philosophical issue which deals with our origin, and has nothing to do with actual, tangible science that leads to actual, factual information or successful execution of science.
You are wrong, class has just begun. :)
_____________________________
OSAS is the Gospel.
(Gal 1:6;5:4) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace
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RE: Evolution or Creation in school? How about neither? - 10/2/2008 10:57:14 AM
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KaseyTom
Posts: 163
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quote:
ORIGINAL: d4nnyb0y02
The Theory of Evolution belongs in a philosophy class, or otherwise, an elective. The Theory of Evolution in and of itself is completely useless when it comes to actually studying and observing how things work--as is Creationism. A construction worker, a doctor, a teacher, a lawyer, a bus driver, a chemist, a biologist, though they may *choose* to *believe* that we evolved over millions of years (The Theory of Evolution), it is in no way *necessary* or *beneficial* to believe it in order to perform the task at hand. A genetisist does not have to believe we evolved over millions of years in order to manipulate and study the *tangible facts* before them. The understanding that things change over time (evolution) is understood by all people who are interested in science, but the Theory of Evolution that tells us we have been evolving over millions of years is a philosophical issue which deals with our origin, and has nothing to do with actual, tangible science that leads to actual, factual information or successful execution of science.
So why does the Entire body of the National Academy of Sciences, whose membership includes 2000 of the most prestigious and accomplished scientists in the country, agree with me and disagree with you? Why does every single living and recent Nobel Prize winner (and nominee, for that matter) in the natural sciences agree with me and disagree with you?
I like my chances in this debate.
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RE: Evolution or Creation in school? How about neither? - 10/2/2008 11:28:40 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 2029
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: d4nnyb0y02
Well, not neither... but I hope I got your attention. Shouldn't Creationism and Evolution BOTH be taught as an ELECTIVE course in public schools?
Evolution is not a science; evolution is a theory within the science of Biology that has implications for other, related sciences. I would think that a specific course in evolutionary biology would be too advanced for most high school curricula.
quote:
True, one *could* apply evolution to those sciences... one *could* also apply creation to those sciences, but neither MUST be extrapolated from either. The sciences stand on their own. The sciences existed long before the Theory of Evolution, and long before there was a debate about Creation.
Doesn't it make sense that NEITHER should be taught in the sciences, but rather reserved as an elective, in which case BOTH should be OFFERED?
If all you want to do is teach kids the basic facts about what each part does, then yes, it makes sense. But if you want to teach them a more broad understanding of life science and how a vast array of disciplines are inter-related, then no, it doesn't make sense to separate them like this. Scientists can learn a lot by examining other sciences and seeing how the discoveries and techniques of others can be applied to their own work. Evolution is one example this.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Evolution or Creation in school? How about neither? - 10/2/2008 12:53:52 PM
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DuckTalk
Posts: 228
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From: A Duck Hole in Tennessee
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quote:
ORIGINAL: delete123
I went to a private Christian school from 4th thru 9th grade
So don't put your "blame" on just a public school system.
I'm not sure where you are coming from because that is precisely what I said.....
quote:
ORIGINAL: norak
Don't leave it to and don't blame it on the schools.
As far as your saying.....
quote:
ORIGINAL: delete123
I do not think there is a fault with what is taught, but in how one may perceive it. Like many of those who read the bible.
It is certainly in many case in how one perceives the answer
Actually, I believe you mean "anyone" who reads the bible because perceptions are all anyone has to guide their learning and their teaching.
I did not say there is "fault" in what is taught. I said, "Every thing that is taught us in school is taught with a "slant" and you have actually nailed the slant on the head! Perceptions! Perceptions of what teachers themselves may have learned or their understanding (perception) of it & are now passing on to our children and then on top of that, dilute it with an individual child's perception! I mean really now, think about it....what is truth?
Note: I did not narrow this to only "public" schools. However, I did use the term "public" in too general a reference meaning any schooling outside of the home. Christian schools have their doctrinal slants. Public schools have their political slants. Christian teachers have more Christian slants than secular and a politically motivated teacher is more adamant in teaching political science than say, a coach who is forced to substitute in a science class, but his mind is on Friday night's game.
I was saying that I beleive home is where we should teach our children our truths & I don't mean everyone should "home school" their children, either. Kids have learned more outside of a classroom environment by the examples we show them on a daily basis than ever inside a text book.
I guess if someone wants to give a bad "slant" to what I said, then I could be accused of saying that it is quite irresponsible of parents to sit back comfortably thinking their children are being taught well outside of the home. They are not always.
_____________________________
Sufferin' sassafrass. The nerve of some people, profitting from other people's miseries.
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RE: Evolution or Creation in school? How about neither? - 10/2/2008 2:45:32 PM
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d4nnyb0y02
Posts: 318
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KaseyTom
So why does the Entire body of the National Academy of Sciences, whose membership includes 2000 of the most prestigious and accomplished scientists in the country, agree with me and disagree with you? Why does every single living and recent Nobel Prize winner (and nominee, for that matter) in the natural sciences agree with me and disagree with you?
I like my chances in this debate.
If that is true, the answer is simply because they do not love the truth. They have been given strong dillusion, because they want it. You, them, or anyone else doesn't have a shred of sound reason to say that the Theory of Evolution is essential. All observable tangible science (if it really is science) can stand on its own without the Theory of Evolution.
< Message edited by d4nnyb0y02 -- 10/2/2008 2:53:43 PM >
_____________________________
OSAS is the Gospel.
(Gal 1:6;5:4) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace
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RE: Evolution or Creation in school? How about neither? - 10/2/2008 3:02:00 PM
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raivyne
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quote:
ORIGINAL: delete123
I believe in evolution and believe it was part of God's plan.
Ditto. I believe even darwin said his theory didn't disprove the existence of God. To my mind it proves it... who or what else could be that precise?
_____________________________
P.U.S.H. – Pray Until Something Happens
What if God is asking us for a sign?
Knowledge is proud; wisdom is humble.
Patiently waiting for my KSA
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RE: Evolution or Creation in school? How about neither? - 10/2/2008 3:45:58 PM
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d4nnyb0y02
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quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
quote:
ORIGINAL: delete123
I believe in evolution and believe it was part of God's plan.
Ditto. I believe even darwin said his theory didn't disprove the existence of God. To my mind it proves it... who or what else could be that precise?
Amen... if we are talking about evolution (change over time). That is just the way our genetic makeup works. We reproduce, we live, we die, we change over time. This helps us survive, and it makes us unique (animals too).
HOWEVER, the Theory of Evolution says we have been evolving over millions of years, and that we came from apes. This is a lie, completely against God's Word, and *shouldn't* be believed by any Christian.
< Message edited by d4nnyb0y02 -- 10/2/2008 3:55:47 PM >
_____________________________
OSAS is the Gospel.
(Gal 1:6;5:4) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace
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RE: Evolution or Creation in school? How about neither? - 10/3/2008 4:28:38 AM
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gigigirrl
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Interesting concept. This link I think would lend credence to your idea. It is a online biology book used by a community college which could be equated to a high school biology book. The thoughts about evolution from what I read are not woven into the other chapters. In fact, evolution is covered in one of the later chapters.
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RE: Evolution or Creation in school? How about neither? - 10/3/2008 12:10:58 PM
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delete123
Posts: 991
Joined: 6/1/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: norak
quote:
ORIGINAL: delete123
I went to a private Christian school from 4th thru 9th grade
So don't put your "blame" on just a public school system.
I'm not sure where you are coming from because that is precisely what I said.....
quote:
ORIGINAL: norak
Don't leave it to and don't blame it on the schools.
As far as your saying.....
quote:
ORIGINAL: delete123
I do not think there is a fault with what is taught, but in how one may perceive it. Like many of those who read the bible.
It is certainly in many case in how one perceives the answer
Actually, I believe you mean "anyone" who reads the bible because perceptions are all anyone has to guide their learning and their teaching.
I did not say there is "fault" in what is taught. I said, "Every thing that is taught us in school is taught with a "slant" and you have actually nailed the slant on the head! Perceptions! Perceptions of what teachers themselves may have learned or their understanding (perception) of it & are now passing on to our children and then on top of that, dilute it with an individual child's perception! I mean really now, think about it....what is truth?
Note: I did not narrow this to only "public" schools. However, I did use the term "public" in too general a reference meaning any schooling outside of the home. Christian schools have their doctrinal slants. Public schools have their political slants. Christian teachers have more Christian slants than secular and a politically motivated teacher is more adamant in teaching political science than say, a coach who is forced to substitute in a science class, but his mind is on Friday night's game.
I was saying that I beleive home is where we should teach our children our truths & I don't mean everyone should "home school" their children, either. Kids have learned more outside of a classroom environment by the examples we show them on a daily basis than ever inside a text book.
I guess if someone wants to give a bad "slant" to what I said, then I could be accused of saying that it is quite irresponsible of parents to sit back comfortably thinking their children are being taught well outside of the home. They are not always.
I apologize Norak~
I took the "slant" on public referring to public schools.
And I also agree that a parent needs to be involved in their child(ren) learning
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RE: Evolution or Creation in school? How about neither? - 10/3/2008 3:05:05 PM
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lightbeamrider
Posts: 138
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Darwin evolution is a basic tenant of atheism. Stalin embraced Darwin and goes down in old editions of Guniness as #2 under the category of mass murderers. Mao is #1. Hitler is #3. Teach children they are the image of ape and they will come to their own conclusions. Socrates taught a sort of moral atheism. Some of his students embraced his atheism, they did not, however embrace his morality. They came to a different conclusion. If God is dead, anything goes. The later result was roving bands of anarchists which were a menace to Athenian society. What we sow we reap. Children are taught biologically there is little difference between man and ape. From the latter comes the former. They are for all practical purposes, taught they are the image of king kong, not God. If that is true then the only question is what do u have that i want? Are u going to give it to me or am i going to take it from u by force?
The racial implications of Darwinism probably posed no problem for him in his time. Who according to Darwin were the ''favored races?'' In his time it was assumed it was the Euros who were the more developed while African races were considered less developed. Today we call that racism but if Darwin is correct then just who is corrupting the gene pool? According to Hitler it was the Jews. Mein Kamph in the original German is loaded with Darwin Speak but has been filtered out in the English translation. Do u really hate ur children that much to teach them they are the image of ape? Knowing full well they will embrace Darwin and may well reject ur ethics as stupidity. To validate all this trash with the stamp of science ranks right up there with crimes against humanity. If Darwinist's are so smart then they should know better than to shout their beliefs from the rooftops. They put their own houses in jeopardy if they do.
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RE: Evolution or Creation in school? How about neither? - 10/3/2008 5:19:57 PM
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delete123
Posts: 991
Joined: 6/1/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: d4nnyb0y02
HOWEVER, the Theory of Evolution says we have been evolving over millions of years, and that we came from apes. This is a lie, completely against God's Word, and *shouldn't* be believed by any Christian.
Not once in my post did I *ever* say I came from some monkey! I said I believe in evolution to the extent that I had referenced.
Change in the atmosphere, it's elements, and the elements that 'may' surround creates change.
Just like one's mind might become stagnant if it stands still in only one train of thought. #1 you would not be able to advance in thought
#2 you most likely will not advance at work without adapting to change.
#3 Change is inevitable in any circumstance of life. Even Jesus proved that! With His Death, He brought Life and that in itself proves to be *life* changing for anyone
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RE: Evolution or Creation in school? How about neither? - 10/4/2008 6:53:09 PM
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ot4christ
Posts: 184
Joined: 8/29/2008
From: Beside the Smoky Mountains
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I think there are bad choices of terms in much of the science literature. When writing college papers or articles for publication, I was required to use words like, “may,” “appears to,” and to a lesser extent, “likely,” when describing causality. In many science articles I have read, macroevolution is stated as fact. I wouldn’t have a problem if texts and teachers spoke in terms such as: “evolution may explain the diversity of species,” or even that “humans may have evolved from protozoa.” It is the absolutist terminology that bothers me – e.g., “therefore humans must have evolved from…”
I don’t think biblical creationism should be taught in public schools. Some “schools” of creation science diametrically oppose even directly observable, measurable, and testable science. How can it then be included in any type of science course if it says discoveries and analysis in the areas of paleontology, geology, and astronomy are for the most part false?
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RE: Evolution or Creation in school? How about neither? - 10/5/2008 1:50:12 AM
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zamdad
Posts: 1751
Joined: 4/8/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KaseyTom
Evolution is science. Creationism is religion. Science is taught in science classes. Religion is taught in religion classes.
The Theory of Evolution is the foundation for many of the biological sciences. Teaching it required as a prerequisite for further studies.
There is no problem. There is no conflict. Evolution is science. Creationism is religion. Science class. Religion class.
Class over.
Oh, if only it were so simple.
quote:
So why does the Entire body of the National Academy of Sciences, whose membership includes 2000 of the most prestigious and accomplished scientists in the country, agree with me and disagree with you? Why does every single living and recent Nobel Prize winner (and nominee, for that matter) in the natural sciences agree with me and disagree with you?
I like my chances in this debate.
Because you have 2001+ human beings so full of themselves that they collectively believe they are one day older than God and twice as smart.
_____________________________
The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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