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Has femininity become a dirty word? - 5/7/2008 2:15:17 PM
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TomTurn
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Femininity - The quality or condition of being feminine. A characteristic or trait traditionally held to be female.
Has femininity become a dirty word? And I can only speak for me as a somewhat masculine type guy who is attracted to femininity in a woman. And that does not mean a meek mouse who can be walked on because I know that seems to be a general reaction. Which helps lead to the question has it become a dirty word?
This could even be carried to such things as talents in general seen to be female talents.
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RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? - 5/7/2008 2:54:09 PM
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Tinkerbell_
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I think in the secular world it has. Women felt the are 'owed' the opportunity of independence and freedom without realising they were enslaved by the wrong men.
I think the world fails to understand that a woman can be submissive to Christ, and to her husband without devaluing herself. I personally think it makes a woman look stronger. I admire a truly submissive woman with a passion for life more than I do a woman who is "I am woman, hear me roar!!!"
I am very feminine, I just don't have a lot of girlie interests. I would rather go to a pro ball game and dine on a dog and beer than go to a 5 star restaurant where I have to wear a dress and *gulp* heels!!!! 
_____________________________
Dangerous When Hyper
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RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? - 5/7/2008 3:05:01 PM
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rgod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TomTurn
Femininity - The quality or condition of being feminine. A characteristic or trait traditionally held to be female.
Has femininity become a dirty word? And I can only speak for me as a somewhat masculine type guy who is attracted to femininity in a woman. And that does not mean a meek mouse who can be walked on because I know that seems to be a general reaction. Which helps lead to the question has it become a dirty word?
This could even be carried to such things as talents in general seen to be female talents.
From a societal standpoint, I don't think so. I think that at the height of the feminist movement in the 70s and 80s it was - but I think that women started to push back in the 90s and feminity started to be respected again. I definitely see it has been appreciated now. For example, I don't think that Martha Stewart or Rachel Ray would have been quite as successful in the 70s and 80s (although Julia Childs was definitely there at that time). And among younger women, many are opting to stay spend more time with kids and to put family and marriage first. There has been some friction with the previous generation of women who have sacrificed a lot so that women would be able to have opportunities in the workplace. I can definitely understand this - but always thought that the major point of the feminist movement (or at least the way I see it anyway) is that women would have the freedom to move within their gifts and talents - whatever that might be - whether it is being a homemaker, being a CEO, or being a judge, or an artist, or a mom. Along with that would come equal compensation for equal work - but of course we know that has not happened.
From a godly standpoint, it is interesting the way that the Lord works in us as believers. In my case, I became a lot more feminine after I came to the Lord, but I also toughened up in some ways too. It is a totally different kind of feminity than exists in the world. Very durable and strong while at the same time yielding. I've noticed that Christian men who follow the Lord have something similar that happens to them, there is a tenderness that often is present, but they are fully masculine at the same time, unmistakeably male. It is all quite attractive.
rgod
< Message edited by rgod -- 5/7/2008 3:22:02 PM >
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RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? - 5/7/2008 7:36:09 PM
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Dakotasunbeam
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Sometimes, well many times it is. Men have not been very kind to women throughout history. Thank God for the example of Christ and His Bride! We can learn what a man should treat a woman like.
"You throw like a girl."
"Your a sissy."
"He screamed like a girl."
"the church is too feminine"
"Women are taking over the world"
"It's not cool to be maculine, everything is so feminine."
Women historically have always been blamed for the problems of a society. Women in some cultures were burned, hunted and torchured for the ails of a society or culture. I think its a true sign of a godly man when we don't have a man pointing a finger at a woman. The world is REPLETE with mysogeny. A true masculine man of God exemplifies something quite different, and it is a breath of fresh air!
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RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? - 5/7/2008 7:55:36 PM
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TomTurn
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quote:
Sometimes, well many times it is. Men have not been very kind to women throughout history. Thank God for the example of Christ and His Bride! We can learn what a man should treat a woman like.
"You throw like a girl."
"Your a sissy."
"He screamed like a girl."
"the church is too feminine"
"Women are taking over the world"
"It's not cool to be maculine, everything is so feminine."
Women historically have always been blamed for the problems of a society. Women in some cultures were burned, hunted and torchured for the ails of a society or culture. I think its a true sign of a godly man when we don't have a man pointing a finger at a woman. The world is REPLETE with mysogeny. A true masculine man of God exemplifies something quite different, and it is a breath of fresh air!
OK, no issues here (-:
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RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? - 5/7/2008 7:58:02 PM
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Dakotasunbeam
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No, there really aren't any. Just a quick look back at history tells us this story. Go ahead, take a quick look back! 
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RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? - 5/7/2008 8:02:54 PM
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TomTurn
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quote:
No, there really aren't any. Just a quick look back at history tells us this story. Go ahead, take a quick look back!
Again the subject, Femininity - The quality or condition of being feminine. A characteristic or trait traditionally held to be female.
Has that become a dirty word? I am assuming you are saying yes
< Message edited by TomTurn -- 5/7/2008 8:55:53 PM >
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RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? - 5/7/2008 8:05:22 PM
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TomTurn
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To expand this, do any of you know of any girls/women who were chastized for being feminine or too feminine?
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RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? - 5/7/2008 9:00:44 PM
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Prairiehiker
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Perhaps it goes way back during the fall of mankind when God gave a curse to Eve. GOd said that Woman's desire would be for her husband. I recently heard an explanation of this to mean that woman's desire was to control her husband. It could be that we're within us is the struggle to control but at the same time, our feminine essence is struggling to come out. Society has played a big role in how we evolved to be this way as well.
I know that I could be very feminine, but years of doing things for myself have toughened me up and made me very strong willed. I look and move very girly, but years ago, every close friends and ex boyfriends of mine have said that I have more balls than a man. I find that as I draw closer to God, I am becoming more my true nature...without all the striving, and struggling. Still not there yet though.
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RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? - 5/7/2008 11:11:50 PM
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rgod
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quote:
To expand this, do any of you know of any girls/women who were chastized for being feminine or too feminine?
quote:
"You throw like a girl."
"Your a sissy."
"He screamed like a girl."
"the church is too feminine"
"Women are taking over the world"
"It's not cool to be maculine, everything is so feminine."
I think these two responses go together pretty well. I agree that things or attitudes that are feminine are often attacked in a generalized way, although I don't believe that it is as attacked as it was in years past. These are good examples. The converse however - a woman who behaves as a man - is often celebrated "she really has b*lls" to use a colorful euphemism for chutzpah. But I think that is even further complicated by context, particularly when it comes to women being in positions of power. You asked for examples - here are a few from the media. I hate to bring up Hilary Clinton in this context because I don't want it to spin off into a political thing - but when she cried a bit earlier in the campaign - there were some that were upset with her because she showed a "feminine" emotion. (Some people thought she was faking - it was manipulation - some thought it was genuine - I don't want to get into that debate - I'm just using a common illustration that we all know.) It is strange because she seems to be walking this odd line - if she is too masculine (has too much chutzpah) she is seen as being hard and brittle, if she is too feminine then she is seen as not being strong enough to lead the country. I know that many think she is wrong for the country for a myriad of reasons - but if you pay attention to the way others speak about her and her campaign, strictly as it relates to her being a woman - I think that it speaks volumes about the femininity issue that you have raised. I've seen this with other female leaders as well (Carly Fiorina from HP immediately springs to mind - or even the initial conversation surrounding Katie Couric anchoring the nightly CBS evening news) - which leads me to believe that femininity can become much more of an issue for women who are aspiring to be "firsts" in male-dominated positions.
In real life I've seen this played out as well. I remember one of my old supervisors was having a private conversation with me one day. (She's long since retired). She said, "At work, I have to act like a man, talk like a man, in order to get the job done." But she went on to say, when she got home, she turned that off and let her feminine side out - she stepped back so that her husband could be the man. I really appreciated that perspective, although I wasn't saved at the time. In the place where I worked at that time, it was very difficult for women to move into leadership positions. (My first day on that job, I walked by the office refrigerator and saw a pinup calendar hanging on the front of it - just to give you an idea of the type of place it was.) But things have changed a lot over 20 years.
On the flip side, in more recent years, we have also seen a lot of attacking of men and masculinity as well. There is almost a pathologizing of what is male and what is masculine that I find to be disturbing. I'm concerned particularly about what is happening to young school-aged boys and the young men. I am of the opinion that neither end of the spectrum is godly. Instead, we are to be masculine (male) and feminine (female) - and in God's design, I think that there are strengths and tendernesses in each. The world has a charicature of "masculine" and "feminine" which I do believe is a not really true to God's glorious design.
When I was younger, if a girl had the ambition to be a homemaker, she would have been chastized. Now, though, I think that people don't look at it as a bad thing, particularly since we have the record high divorce rate. I feel like there is an embracing of things feminine for the most part.
Personally, I've found most people to be responsive to my femininity (men and women) and I definitely appreciate the femininity and masculinity of others as well. Actually, I just like God's design and am thankful for it.
Interesting thread - I look forward to reading others thoughts.
rgod
Note: In the original version of this post, I wrote something about femininity and the church - that sometimes women who are too feminine have issues there. But when I thought about it more, I think I was wrong - it isn't about femininity but more about level of attractiveness which is a related but different issue. The church is the place where femininity is embraced, possibly more than masculinity is - depending on the congregation. So, I edited out my original comment.
< Message edited by rgod -- 5/8/2008 8:32:22 AM >
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RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? - 5/8/2008 6:21:19 AM
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car2ner
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Fads come and go and we need to survive the roller coaster. I am a tomboy and had to learn to appreciate being more frilly. I use the term frilly because feminine can conjure up so many differant images in differant people. I can't tell what feminine means to any particular person so I would say my "girly softer side". Still, you won't find me in lace and froo-froo.
It seems to me that today's market is trying to portrait women as tough and feminine. To be all woman and still basically tough as nails.
_____________________________
the journal of selling my wonderful home http://www.car2ner.2ya.com (my blog)
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RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? - 5/8/2008 9:27:59 AM
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TomTurn
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Just some thoughts, not arguments, just thoughts for conversation
"God said that Woman's desire would be for her husband. I recently heard an explanation of this to mean that woman's desire was to control her husband." - In my understanding that is what it means. A built in curse. Man will always have to fight the desire to keep a women under their thumb, women always fighting the desire to get out from under that and rule over him. Only God can set it right
"You throw like a girl." "Your a sissy." "He screamed like a girl."
Though we know they are made to be male to male slams. Is it wrong for a girl to take pride in that she throws like a girl? Remember years back when I was about 22 and one of the men in the Church made a joke to one of the 14 year od girls "you are such a sissy". She responded "I am a girl, it is ok for me to be" and it sounded so right coming from the girl she was
"the church is too feminine"
Is feminine supposed to be over the Church?
"In real life I've seen this played out as well. I remember one of my old supervisors was having a private conversation with me one day. (She's long since retired). She said, "At work, I have to act like a man, talk like a man, in order to get the job done."
In my opinion as a man who has been in the adult working world for over 30 years, this is not true and we for the most part laugh at the women who think this is true and do such.
If a woman is having to "act like a man" to get something done, could it be she is in a place she should not be if she has to reduce herself out of her femininity and not just "act like a woman"?
There is almost a pathologizing of what is male and what is masculine that I find to be disturbing. I'm concerned particularly about what is happening to young school-aged boys and the young men. I am of the opinion that neither end of the spectrum is godly. Instead, we are to be masculine (male) and feminine (female) - and in God's design, I think that there are strengths and tendernesses in each. The world has a charicature of "masculine" and "feminine" which I do believe is a not really true to God's glorious design.
I can see that
In my opinion, feminity is no more a dirty word than masculinity. The world is a pretty gender confused place these days. I've actually heard people state that we live in a genderless society. Looking around at times it may seem like it. But it sure ain't true.
Of course people are of the same gender as always but has it changed and/or continue to change? Like how I asked above. Should a girl take pride in that she throws like a girl or is that seen as a fault she must overcome? Just as an example
Plus, these two terms have different meanings to different people.
True
So that would determine one's perception. Some people equate feminity strictly with sex appeal. Some people equate masculinity with physical strength. I think feminity and masculinity are simply defined by our God given differences. Differences He created for clear reasons.
Could you please carry these thoughts further? What are some of the reasons?
I use the term frilly because feminine can conjure up so many differant images in differant people.
What would some of those different images be to you?
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RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? - 5/8/2008 10:19:33 AM
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rgod
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quote:
"In real life I've seen this played out as well. I remember one of my old supervisors was having a private conversation with me one day. (She's long since retired). She said, "At work, I have to act like a man, talk like a man, in order to get the job done."
In my opinion as a man who has been in the adult working world for over 30 years, this is not true and we for the most part laugh at the women who think this is true and do such.
If a woman is having to "act like a man" to get something done, could it be she is in a place she should not be if she has to reduce herself out of her femininity and not just "act like a woman"?
Tom,
This is a really interesting thread - there are a lot of good points here and it is making me take a harder look at my conception of what it means to be feminine. I'll respond to what was quoted above since I made the statement. No, I wouldn't say that she was in a place she shouldn't have been. She was a supervisor at a government agency at a time when women supervisors were not the norm. There was a lot that was happening within that agency at the time, so many things that there were congressional hearings and investigations into the many many allegations of discrimination that were reported (I know because I sat in on one of those hearings. It was all quite interesting.) Things have changed a lot in that agency and today a lot more people have options than they did previously. But, I know that for a lot of women who were there at the time, they were trying to find a way to navigate through those waters - to be a woman and also to be a leader. Becoming more masculine was her way of handling it and I have to admit, she was very effective.
What I appreciated about her remark was that she recognized that in the home - for the sake of her marriage and to honor her husband - she needed to be able to switch her masculine persona off. She and her husband had been happily married for many many many years. However, I differ from her in that I believe that it is possible for a woman to retain her femininity and still be a respected leader. To me - leadership is the main area where I see that a woman being "feminine" garners the most comments and sometimes resistance. But otherwise, I would say no - femininity is not a dirty word (at least from my perspective).
< Message edited by rgod -- 5/8/2008 10:25:56 AM >
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RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? - 5/8/2008 7:18:52 PM
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GeorgiaNerd
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quote:
Femininity - The quality or condition of being feminine. A characteristic or trait traditionally held to be female.
Has femininity become a dirty word? And I can only speak for me as a somewhat masculine type guy who is attracted to femininity in a woman. And that does not mean a meek mouse who can be walked on because I know that seems to be a general reaction. Which helps lead to the question has it become a dirty word?
This could even be carried to such things as talents in general seen to be female talents.
In society today, I would have to say yes and no based on the definition given. Femininity with regards to specific roles is looked down upon, as is masculinity. Femininity with regards to possessing a feminine trait is not looked down upon.
quote:
I think feminity and masculinity are simply defined by our God given differences. Differences He created for clear reasons.
Basically, this is "dirty" in today's society. Nowadays, we don't believe that it is a genderless society, but rather a genderqueer society. This means that women are not going to express all feminine traits, but rather express a unique mixture of masculine and feminine traits. These traits are not "dirty" in themselves. However, it is believed that there are no set roles or differences between all males and females. There is more variation within the groups than between them.
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RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? - 5/8/2008 10:40:13 PM
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Prairiehiker
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By the way, my best friend is what you would call a Proverbs 31 woman. Fully capable on her own, full of charm, kindness, warmth, gentleness, quiet strength, confidence, etc. She has such a captivating personality yet, she's not someone who uses her charisma to manipulate. She can challenge anyone without being threatening. She embodies what godly femininity is or should be. When I think of her, I think that she's a perfect example of what God intended woman to be.
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RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? - 5/8/2008 10:42:58 PM
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BugLady
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Prairiehiker
By the way, my best friend is what you would call a Proverbs 31 woman. Fully capable on her own, full of charm, kindness, warmth, gentleness, quiet strength, confidence, etc. She has such a captivating personality yet, she's not someone who uses her charisma to manipulate. She can challenge anyone without being threatening. She embodies what godly femininity is or should be. When I think of her, I think that she's a perfect example of what God intended woman to be.
That does seem like a perfect example.
_____________________________
If you have any information leading to the arrest and conviction of the person who hi-lited defaced my Scott O'Grady book, I'll bake you brownies! 
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RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? - 5/8/2008 11:38:43 PM
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followtheLeader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Prairiehiker
Perhaps it goes way back during the fall of mankind when God gave a curse to Eve. GOd said that Woman's desire would be for her husband. I recently heard an explanation of this to mean that woman's desire was to control her husband. It could be that we're within us is the struggle to control but at the same time, our feminine essence is struggling to come out.
I'm not a bible scholar but I do know that the word desire used in Genesis three is also translated appetite I'll let you all decide for yourselves if the translation above is the one that you choose. I do not feel that is an accurate translation, but that is just MHO.
_____________________________
Put a fork in it!
You are beyond hilarious!....... WhiteRoseBlessings
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RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? - 5/8/2008 11:40:15 PM
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followtheLeader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BugLady
quote:
ORIGINAL: Prairiehiker
By the way, my best friend is what you would call a Proverbs 31 woman. Fully capable on her own, full of charm, kindness, warmth, gentleness, quiet strength, confidence, etc. She has such a captivating personality yet, she's not someone who uses her charisma to manipulate. She can challenge anyone without being threatening. She embodies what godly femininity is or should be. When I think of her, I think that she's a perfect example of what God intended woman to be.
That does seem like a perfect example.
She sounds like a wonderful woman.
_____________________________
Put a fork in it!
You are beyond hilarious!....... WhiteRoseBlessings
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RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? - 5/8/2008 11:43:51 PM
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TomTurn
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quote:
but I think that women started to push back in the 90s and feminity started to be respected again. I definitely see it has been appreciated now. For example, I don't think that Martha Stewart or Rachel Ray would have been quite as successful in the 70s and 80s
This was a good point
quote:
Basically, this is "dirty" in today's society. Nowadays, we don't believe that it is a genderless society, but rather a genderqueer society. This means that women are not going to express all feminine traits, but rather express a unique mixture of masculine and feminine traits. These traits are not "dirty" in themselves. However, it is believed that there are no set roles or differences between all males and females. There is more variation within the groups than between them.
I was almost not going to use the term "dirty word" but could not come up with something different
quote:
I don't find it offensive at all. But we all know that it's intended meaning is to throw poorly. So why on earth would a girl take pride in doing something poorly? Besides plenty of female athletes have developed the ability to throw better than *gasp* some men. And these women are no less feminine for working hard at doing something well.
Yes many women can throw better than some men. Actually most could throw better than myself. But that is not what the focus is. So what if throwing like a girl is to throw poorly? I do a lot of things that are done poorly because I am a man and I am kind of proud of it.
The question was just a response to a comment. Why should it be bad for a girl to do something "like a girl", even if it is seen as being done poorly?
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RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? - 5/8/2008 11:45:43 PM
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TomTurn
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quote:
I'm not a bible scholar but I do know that the word desire used in Genesis three is also translated appetite I'll let you all decide for yourselves if the translation above is the one that you choose. I do not feel that is an accurate translation, but that is just MHO.
Thanks but please let there be no further comment on on this so as not to get sidetracked into a theological discussion
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RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? - 5/8/2008 11:48:37 PM
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followtheLeader
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To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you." Genesis 3:16
quote:
ORIGINAL: TomTurn
Just some thoughts, not arguments, just thoughts for conversation
"God said that Woman's desire would be for her husband. I recently heard an explanation of this to mean that woman's desire was to control her husband." - In my understanding that is what it means. A built in curse. Man will always have to fight the desire to keep a women under their thumb, women always fighting the desire to get out from under that and rule over him. Only God can set it right
So, this is your translation/paraphrase of Gen. 3:16, shown above?
_____________________________
Put a fork in it!
You are beyond hilarious!....... WhiteRoseBlessings
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RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? - 5/8/2008 11:50:05 PM
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followtheLeader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TomTurn
quote:
I'm not a bible scholar but I do know that the word desire used in Genesis three is also translated appetite I'll let you all decide for yourselves if the translation above is the one that you choose. I do not feel that is an accurate translation, but that is just MHO.
Thanks but please let there be no further comment on on this so as not to get sidetracked into a theological discussion
Then maybe it would be a good idea not to make theological statements.
_____________________________
Put a fork in it!
You are beyond hilarious!....... WhiteRoseBlessings
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And these women are no less feminine for working hard at doing something well. 