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Jack Van Impe - 4/30/2008 1:32:11 PM
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tsnody2001
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From: Terre Haute, IN
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Hi everyone. This is the first thread I've started. I want to discuss whether you agree or disagree with his teachings. Does he, as Paul would say, rightly divide the Word of Truth? Why or why not? Thank you.
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RE: Jack Van Impe - 4/30/2008 3:30:24 PM
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tracydolls
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Ok, in trying to take a few steps, can I ask what is the difference between Jack Van Impe and Tim Lahaye.
I "Yahooed" the word pre-trib dispositon and left behind dis... whatever.
I'm trying to understand, let me throw out here,
there are a group of Christians that believe in a Pre-"meaning before" Trib Rapture,
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Jack Van Impe - 4/30/2008 4:15:37 PM
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tracydolls
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Ok, thank you Wes for taking the time....
Ok, in one article I read with that word pre-Trib
they say there is a difference between the Rapture and Second Coming?
What am I missing? I did'nt know that.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Jack Van Impe - 4/30/2008 4:40:47 PM
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tsnody2001
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From: Terre Haute, IN
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Please, keep this to Van Impe, why he is or why he is not teaching the truth, with Scripture to back up your argument. please do not respond unless you have a real question or Scriptural answer, not some fabled story and your opinion about it. Thank you.
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RE: Jack Van Impe - 4/30/2008 5:11:37 PM
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ta_mosquito
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
This thread DID get off topic. It went from Jack Van Impe to defining pre-trib and the difference between the Rapture and 2nd Coming in the pre-trib view.
Let's get back on the topic of Van Impe, please.
Thank you!
Tricia
Forums Moderator
Please do not reply to this message within the forums or chat.
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RE: Jack Van Impe - 4/30/2008 5:16:47 PM
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tracydolls
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ok, it is my fault. forgive me. Let me go study Jack Van Impe.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Jack Van Impe - 4/30/2008 5:23:15 PM
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JimboFletch
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According to Wikipedia:
Originally from Troy, Michigan, Van Impe was an accordion player as a child, performing duets with his missionary father across Michigan and other states. In 1948, Van Impe graduated from high school and entered Detroit Bible College, earning his diploma in 1952 and beginning his career as a preacher and evangelist as well as an extensive recording career. In an episode of Jack Van Impe Presents, Jack notes that during his years working with the Billy Graham crusades, Van Impe met his future wife, Rexella (b. 1932), who was an organist with the crusades. The couple were later married and started their own joint ministry.
Since the 1950s, Van Impe has released dozens of Gospel and spoken word recordings. His first album Presenting the Van Impes features Van Impe on the accordion as well as Rexella's organ playing. Subsequent musical recordings featured the accorgan, a type of electronic accordion.
...
Jack Van Impe Presents is video-taped at the Jack Van Impe Ministries World Outreach Center, located in Rochester Hills, Michigan. His wife, Rexella, co-hosts the telecast with him. On a typical show, Rexella begins by reading a recent news headline. Van Impe then applies his memorization of Bible verses to interpret the news story.
Van Impe also interprets Bible prophecies, quoting Bible verses throughout his commentary.
....Over the years, Van Impe has set many specific years and dates for the second coming of Jesus, but has continued to move his prediction later. Many of these dates have already passed, and he recently pointed to 2012 as a possible date for the second coming.
The last part in red is in red because it should be a BIG RED FLAG that the man isn't a prophet or a man of God, just an accordion player who strayed from his true calling.
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RE: Jack Van Impe - 5/1/2008 8:55:52 AM
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tsnody2001
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From: Terre Haute, IN
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Am I part of this cult because I asked to weigh this man's theology against the compass of Scripture? Please, Jimbo, for your own sake, do not be so hasty when passing out such judgment.
Have you not read, "But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak , they will give account of it in the day of judgment"(Matt 12:36)?
Please, I am not against your opinion, I just want opinions to be weighed against the just scales of Scripture.
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RE: Jack Van Impe - 5/1/2008 9:22:30 AM
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earthless
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His date setting is very problematic for me. I grow up watching him as a kid and love how well he memorizes Scripture and recites it on command. I am not a big end times fan that sees the end of the world in every news piece.. but I did enjoy his 30 minute program, even when our eschatology is different.
But the date setting thing has turned me off from watching him completely.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Jack Van Impe - 5/1/2008 9:26:09 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tsnody2001
Am I part of this cult because I asked to weigh this man's theology against the compass of Scripture? Please, Jimbo, for your own sake, do not be so hasty when passing out such judgment.
Have you not read, "But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak , they will give account of it in the day of judgment"(Matt 12:36)?
Please, I am not against your opinion, I just want opinions to be weighed against the just scales of Scripture.
Jesus said that NO MAN knows when the end will come. Van Impe has set dates for the end. Ipso facto, Van Impe is at best a false prophet and has condemned himself. I don't see any need to discuss him any further since I choose to believe Jesus above any man.
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RE: Jack Van Impe - 5/1/2008 3:53:35 PM
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Lapidoth
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I don't know how you can discuss JVI and not discuss the rapture nonsense.
Hopefully this is in accord to the OP and not off topic.
How is JVI off?
Matt. 24:29
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days"
Matt. 24:30
"Then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:"
This is plain enough in and of itself, but the pre-t spinners spin all around it.
JVI has been doing it for 50 years. I also grew up watching him, sending him money,
wearing his "Perhaps Today" trumpet pin. That was decades ago. And we're still here.
Dates were set back then too.
To get around the plain truth, we then split the Resurrection into two events.
One imaginary (rapture) and the other real (Resurrection).
Is that what we're looking for?
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Jack Van Impe - 5/3/2008 1:24:20 PM
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tsnody2001
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From: Terre Haute, IN
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Regardless of our personal views on Van Impe, a lot of what he has said over the years has come to pass. Please keep in mind that I am not necessarily endorsing him or what he teaches. God's Word is where my allegiance lies, not simply in a man on TV. But one thing he has brought to his viewers' attention is the potential implications of the REAL ID Act/National ID. I wasn't sure whether to post this here, since I have mentioned Van Impe, or on the REAL ID Act/National ID thread. What should we think about such an Act? Keep in mind that this Act is real, already passed in many US states, not just a figment of Van Impe's, or anyone else's, mind.
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RE: Jack Van Impe - 5/3/2008 2:22:13 PM
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JordanW
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Personally, I like Van Impe. I don't believe that it's right to set dates on things, as we don't know when these certain things will take place, and only God does.
_____________________________
Jesus Christ is The Way, The Truth, and The Life.
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RE: Jack Van Impe - 5/4/2008 9:59:24 AM
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Retrobyter
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Shalom, Lapidoth.
Quoting Matt. 24:29-30 is good, but how does that mesh with the prophecy that was written by Yochanan (John) in the book today known as the Revelation?
I've read all the arguments for pre-trib, against pre-trib, for post-trib, against post-trib, those for and against mid-trib, pre-wrath, and partial rapture positions. (I've even looked at the arguments for and against preterism, but that's not important right now.)
Frankly, I don't believe that ANY of the positions really capture the jist of what Yeshua`s prophecy and Yochanan's prophecy were saying! Each of the current eschatological positions has its own agenda!
So, how do you mesh the two? Isn't it the sixth seal that gives the following words? "Then I watched as he broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake, the sun turned black as sackcloth worn in mourning, and the full moon became blood-red. The stars fell from heaven to earth just as a fig tree drops its figs when shaken by a strong wind. The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place. Then th earth's kings, the rulers, the generals, the rich and the mighty -- indeed, everyone, slave and free -- hid himself in caves and among the rocks in the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us (Hoshea 10:8) from the face of the One sitting on the throne and from the fury of the Lamb! For the Great Day of their fury has come, and who can stand?" (Rev. 6:12-17, CJB)
Wouldn't that correspond to Yeshua`s words in Matt. 24:29? Sure, it does!
But, what about verse 30? Where does it occur in the Revelation? Well, we have a preview mention of it in Rev. 1:7, but let's look at the rest of the things that happen after the first three chapters:
The seventh seal, which is subdivided into the seven trumpets, continues the falling of the stars! Check it out:
The first trumpet announces "hail and fire mingled with blood...thrown down upon the earth." These are herald meteorites that were reflected in the movies "Armageddon" and "Deep Impact," particularly "Deep Impact."
The second trumpet announces the "blazing mountain hurled into the sea," destroying 1/3 of the life and the ships upon the sea. That is VERY reminescent of "Deep Impact!" (This could be one of our oceans, such as the Atlantic, but I really think that it is talking specifically about the Mediterranean Sea, the Great Sea, as it was known back then, used for shipping between Rome, Greece, Egypt, and the East.)
The third trumpet is a "great star, blazing like a torch, falling from the sky onto a third of the rivers and onto the springs of water." This sputtering meteor breaks up in the atmosphere, but releases chemicals that poison a third of the fresh water sources.
The fourth trumpet is about the aftermath of the sea-landing meteorite: "the sun was struck, also a third of the moon and a third of the stars; so that a third of them were darkened, the day had a third less light, and the night likewise." While the sun and the moon could have been actually hit by the same phenomenon of the asteroid(s), it is unlikely -- given the distances -- that a third of the stars of the sky were actually struck. I believe, given the rest of the verse, that we are simply seeing the results of the ELE-like cloud of debris from the impact that blocks out a third of the LIGHT from the sun, moon and the stars.
The fifth trumpet is another "star that had fallen out of heaven (the sky) onto the earth, and he (it) was given the key [location] to the shaft leading down to the Abyss. He (It) opened the shaft of the Abyss, and there went up smoke from the shaft like the smoke of a huge furnace; the sun was darkened, and the sky too, by the smoke from the shaft...." (This verifies and confirms the results of the fourth trumpet.) "Then out of the smoke onto the earth came locusts...."
The sixth trumpet is again about the results of the previous impacts: "Release the four messengers that are bound at the great river Euphrates!" The Euphrates River will be diverted! These four messenger-nations, once held back by the strategic impasse of traversing a river with a whole army, are now free to move! "These four messengers had been kept ready for this moment, for this day and month and year, to kill a third of mankind; and the number of cavalry soldiers was two hundred million!"
Between the sixth and the seventh trumpets, we have "the seven thunderclaps" that "sounded with voices that spoke." However, we are given little information about these since Yochanan was instructed not to write them down. They would probably give us just too much information and there would have been no more guess-work about what was to transpire.
After the seven thunderclaps, the messenger standing on the sea and on the land swore to God that there would be no more delay.
THEN, the seventh trumpet sounds when "The kingdoms of the world have become the Kingdom of our Master (God) and His Messiah (Yeshua`), and He (God) will rule forever and ever!" Thus, the seven bowls of plagues that come AFTER this will FOLLOW the arrival of God's Messiah and are the RESULTS of the Judgment that He executes on those who have messed with His people, both Isra'el and His Gentile saints!
So,... is JVI right? No. But, are others right instead? NO! NONE OF THE POSITIONS give the correct order and interpretation of this book, even and especially in light of Yeshua`s prophecy! (And the preterists aren't even in the ball park!) Am I right? NO! I'm sure that I've missed some things, too. I can't tell you what because whatever it is is my "blind spot." You don't know that you don't know what you don't know!
That's my take on it.
Retrobyter
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RE: Jack Van Impe - 5/4/2008 10:32:47 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 287
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From: Florida
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Shalom, Lapidoth (and others).
Oh, and BTW, I don't believe in "seven years of tribulation" either. Only three and a half years are talked about in Revelation. Furthermore, I believe the first three and a half years were Yeshua`s years of ministry during His FIRST "Advent."
If you've ever done the research necessary to fully understand Dani'el 9:24-27 FROM A JEWISH PERSPECTIVE, you would understand. One must understand Dani'el that way since the language is Hebrew and Dani'el was a Jew! Furthermore, the people to whom He wrote were Jews! In addition to this understanding, one must also do the Messianic thing and accept the words of Yeshua` as the Messiah offered to Isra'el. When you do this, it becomes quite clear:
The abomination that causes desolation is the rejection of the Messiah! The desolation itself was prophesied by Yeshua` in Matt. 23:37-39:
Matt 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV
When will the desolation of Isra'el end? NOT UNTIL THEY CAN SAY (like the little children and His students said on His announced arrival into Yerushalayim) "BARUWK HABA' B'SHEM YHVH!" "Welcome to the One who comes on YHVH's authority!" speaking of and referring to Yeshua` the Messiah of G-D, not just "their Messiah." He is the L-RD's Messiah! YAH's Messiah! YAH's Chosen One signified by the Anointing of His Ruach haKodesh, His Holy Spirit!
The sacrifice and oblation ceases when G-D says they cease! Without G-D accepting the sacrifices, all you have is just more butchering. The veil of the Temple, which the author of Hebrews says represented the flesh of Yeshua`, was torn in two from the top to the bottom when Yeshua` gave up the ghost! That was no small task since the veil has been said by archaeologists and Hebrew scholars to be at least SIX INCHES THICK! That was G-D's statement!
I am convinced that we who name the name of the Messiah have given far too much credit to the Beast of Revelation that many erroneously call the "Antichrist!" Yeshua` fulfills Daniel 9.
Retrobyter
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RE: Jack Van Impe - 5/4/2008 10:54:43 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 287
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: tsnody2001
Am I part of this cult because I asked to weigh this man's theology against the compass of Scripture? Please, Jimbo, for your own sake, do not be so hasty when passing out such judgment.
Have you not read, "But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak , they will give account of it in the day of judgment"(Matt 12:36)?
Please, I am not against your opinion, I just want opinions to be weighed against the just scales of Scripture.
Jesus said that NO MAN knows when the end will come. Van Impe has set dates for the end. Ipso facto, Van Impe is at best a false prophet and has condemned himself. I don't see any need to discuss him any further since I choose to believe Jesus above any man.
Shalom, Jimbo.
While I tend to agree with you, you do need to take it down a notch! We all make mistakes! If anything, chalk it up to being human. I, for one, am glad to see that JVI is human, too! (After memorizing the whole Bible, I was beginning to wonder!) However, a "false prophet?" I believe that that's a bit too harsh. First of all, he has never claimed to be a "prophet." Second, he IS a brother-in-Christ, by his own admission. Since we cannot see the heart like God does, we should at least give him the benefit of the doubt. AND, if he is a brother-in-Christ, then HOW YOU TREAT HIM IS HOW YOU ARE TREATING THE LORD HIMSELF! Remember: "Inasmuch as you have done it unto one of these the least my brothers, you have done it unto me!" Please check your bigotry at the door. Thanks.
Retrobyter
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RE: Jack Van Impe - 5/5/2008 1:21:51 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3302
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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I agree that we will probably find out that "WE WERE ALL WRONG!!!!!"
I think we will understand it as it plays out. With awe and wonderment to boot. lol.
And I agree that if we don't understand the Hebrew mindset, we will definitely miss it.
The JVI's were during the time of Daniel as well.
They are found in Ezekiel. They were predicting they would be out of there.
Ezekiel told them to settle in, it would be a long haul.
Daniel understood by his (Ez.) writings that a period of 70 years would transpire.
At the end of the 70 years, Daniel began to repent for himself and his nation.
Wouldn't it be something if all us voters would repent and seek God's face instead of
voting our pocketbook and get leaders that would fall on their face before God?
But, I guess we'll have to wait until Yeshua the Ruler w/ a rod of iron appears.
We're definitely closer than when JVI started. 50+ years closer, lol.
If we have understanding, we need to be prepared to help the brethren.
3 1/2 years is a long time during distress. We ain't seen nothing yet.
But, if we camp in Goshen, nothing to worry about. No spirit of fear, but a sound mind.
Arguing Revelation is moot to me. Today is the day.
The Lord's Day will come at the "appointed time." Either you're ready, or you're not.
If you're ready today, you'll be ready then.
If you're not ready today, you won't be ready then.
TODAY is the day of salvation.
Baruch HaBa HaShem YHWH.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Jack Van Impe - 5/6/2008 11:53:29 AM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3302
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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He has leaned toward the "inclusiveness"
"can't we get along?" type conviction.
I think that may show he's not as sure of himself as in earlier years.
I know someone sent him, or told him about the "Pre-Wrath Rapture" book or doctrine.
I could tell by the rhetoric he was using one season in defending the doctrine he espoused for 50 years.
I detected a minute waver in his argument, but if he was to leave his stance (or, should I say his wife's stance?)
then that would be 50 years down the tube, no more big tv ministry.
I guess he'd have to live by faith like the rest of us if he were to truly preach just the WORD.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Jack Van Impe - 5/7/2008 10:37:07 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6501
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: tsnody2001
Am I part of this cult because I asked to weigh this man's theology against the compass of Scripture? Please, Jimbo, for your own sake, do not be so hasty when passing out such judgment.
Have you not read, "But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak , they will give account of it in the day of judgment"(Matt 12:36)?
Please, I am not against your opinion, I just want opinions to be weighed against the just scales of Scripture.
Jesus said that NO MAN knows when the end will come. Van Impe has set dates for the end. Ipso facto, Van Impe is at best a false prophet and has condemned himself. I don't see any need to discuss him any further since I choose to believe Jesus above any man.
Shalom, Jimbo.
While I tend to agree with you, you do need to take it down a notch! We all make mistakes! If anything, chalk it up to being human. I, for one, am glad to see that JVI is human, too! (After memorizing the whole Bible, I was beginning to wonder!) However, a "false prophet?" I believe that that's a bit too harsh. First of all, he has never claimed to be a "prophet." Second, he IS a brother-in-Christ, by his own admission. Since we cannot see the heart like God does, we should at least give him the benefit of the doubt. AND, if he is a brother-in-Christ, then HOW YOU TREAT HIM IS HOW YOU ARE TREATING THE LORD HIMSELF! Remember: "Inasmuch as you have done it unto one of these the least my brothers, you have done it unto me!" Please check your bigotry at the door. Thanks.
Retrobyter
I'm not questioning the man's salvation, only that he 1) Apparently doesn't understand that Jesus stated that only the Father knows the date the JVI keeps claiming to know and 2) that makes the man a false prophet unworthy of consideration in biblical matters. This isn't a matter of conscience or personal conviction, it ranks HIGH on the order of rightly dividing the Word.
FWIW, I also recall that Satan was adept at quoting scripture, so being a living recording of the entire Bible only indicates an excellent memory, nothing more.
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