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Romans 3:30 "By faith/Through faith - 4/16/2008 8:38:11 PM
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drfuss
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Romans 3:30 - "Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith."
What is the significance of saying that the circumcision is justified BY faith and the uncircumcision is justified THROUGH faith?
I assume it is the same faith, but why is one "by"faith and the other "through" faith?
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RE: Romans 3:30 "By faith/Through faith - 4/17/2008 12:44:29 AM
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LCannon
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Romans 3:27-"Where then is any boasting in law? Any confidence is in the law of liberty of obedience 28 for we are justified by faith apart from the constraints of works of the Law. 29 Perhaps this liberty is a radical notion for a Jew but it’s no less radical for the Gentile with inexperience with God 30 since God invites all to be justified for, experienced or not, His redemption to faith is wholeness 31 thus Jesus not only satisfied God’s wrath, He remains our hope of inheritance."
_____________________________
"[Prayer power] hasn't never been taxed to[His]full capacity. His standing challenge, 'Call on
Me and I will answer with great and mighty things which thou can't imagine." Hudson Tayor
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RE: Romans 3:30 "By faith/Through faith - 4/17/2008 8:56:57 AM
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drfuss
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LCannon
Romans 3:27-"Where then is any boasting in law? Any confidence is in the law of liberty of obedience 28 for we are justified by faith apart from the constraints of works of the Law. 29 Perhaps this liberty is a radical notion for a Jew but it’s no less radical for the Gentile with inexperience with God 30 since God invites all to be justified for, experienced or not, His redemption to faith is wholeness 31 thus Jesus not only satisfied God’s wrath, He remains our hope of inheritance."
Perhaps I missed something in your post, but I don't see what that has to do with my specific question in the OP.
What is the significance of saying that the circumcision is justified BY faith and the uncircumcision is justified THROUGH faith?
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RE: Romans 3:30 "By faith/Through faith - 4/17/2008 9:10:20 AM
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BookerG
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"By" faith translates the Greek "ek" which is more literally "from." It's the preposition he has used repeatedly to say salvation is not from works but from faith.
"Through" is the preposition "dia" which means "by means of," expressing the agency or instrument by which something is accomplished. In the Greek, Paul adds the article "the" which was missing in the first half. Adding the article stresses "that faith, the same faith that I was just talking about." So it's simply saying that the agency or instrument God uses with Gentiles is the very same as with Jews.
The first preposition continues Paul's train of thought from before. The second preposition just says that with Gentiles the instrument is the same.
< Message edited by BookerG -- 4/17/2008 9:19:22 AM >
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RE: Romans 3:30 "By faith/Through faith - 4/17/2008 12:21:05 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
Romans 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29 Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
This is an interesting passage that it often overlokkd in the discussion of the relationship between Ha Torah and faith. It is generally agreed that keeping Ha Torah does not result in salvation in and of itself. The Jew is saved by faithfully keeping Ha Torah, that is by faith as exemplified by keeping Ha Torah. Faith being the operative term. We see this same principle expressed by Yakov(James) when he says, You say you have faith without works, I show you my faith by my works. The Gentile is svaed thrugh the same faith even thoug he has not yet kept Ha Torah, because he is largely ignorant of it. Does this mean that Ha Torah or the keeping of it has been done away with. "Not at all!" It is Ha Torah shows us the nature of Adonai in which we put or faith. Therefore, if we truly have faith in Adonai, we would prefer to live in accord with His nature not out of obligation, but from a thankful heart.
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RE: Romans 3:30 "By faith/Through faith - 4/17/2008 1:47:03 PM
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ta_mosquito
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Note that this thread isn't about keeping the Law, but about the difference in the words "by" and "through" in Romans 3:30. Please take discussion about keeping the Law to the one-stop thread.
Thank you!
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RE: Romans 3:30 "By faith/Through faith - 4/17/2008 5:00:21 PM
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drfuss
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drfuss:
Perhaps I should phrase the question differently.
What is the difference between being justifies by faith and being justified through faith?
Isn't it the same justification?
Isn't it the same faith?
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RE: Romans 3:30 "By faith/Through faith - 4/17/2008 5:02:30 PM
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Anasazi_Avatar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drfuss
Romans 3:30 - "Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith."
What is the significance of saying that the circumcision is justified BY faith and the uncircumcision is justified THROUGH faith?
I assume it is the same faith, but why is one "by"faith and the other "through" faith?
Hi there,
To answer your question: This verse talks of the difference between the Jews and the Gentiles.
Those of the Jewish faith, when they reach the age of 8 days old are physically circumcised [in the flesh]. And as they grow up in their belief they should live their lives according to what the Jews believe. When they do this God will justify them. This is because they are living according to the teachings of the OT. A child of 8 days old does not know to believe in anything spiritual, and will, as he/she grows, live according to the rules and doctrines of the Jewish faith.
To the Gentiles, when we believe are not physically circumcised [in the flesh], but are spiritually circumcised [separated from worldly ways and desires]. When we believe and accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour, separate ourselves from worldly ways and desires. We live [through our faith], according to the teaching of Christ and His commandments. We do not live by the doctrines of the OT, but by following after Christ. JOHN 1:1 shows that Jesus Christ is the Word. He is the Scriptures that we read. Therefore when we believe and receive our beginning faith, (EPH. 2:8), as a gift from God, we then start to live according to the Word. Yes we do need to buy things and live in the world, but we do not live as the world lives, chasing riches and fame, and power over others. When we reach complete faith we will live totally in God and He will supply ALL our needs as He did for those that Christ sent out in MATT. chapt 10.
In short: The Jews are circumcised in the world[flesh], and then grow in faith and belief, with their eyes focussed on the promise of the coming of the Messiah, as promised by God. Gentiles first believe then receive the gift of faith, and are then circumcised from the world[spiritual]. We then live according to the Word, not the world.
I hope this explains it for you.
Maranatha.
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RE: Romans 3:30 "By faith/Through faith - 4/17/2008 5:31:06 PM
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Bluethread
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In short, the Yehudim(Jews) are justified by their historical understanding of salvation by grace through faith as is proven by their faithfulness. The Gentile is saved through the same principle, though he may not fully understand it and therefore can not fully act on it, since it is, or at least was, an alien concept among the nations.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Romans 3:30 "By faith/Through faith - 4/17/2008 7:56:27 PM
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LCannon
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It's the same atonement, Jesus' sacrifice/Victory. 'By' the symbol(covenant)of circumcision looking forward to the Messiah(Jesus) and 'through' his blood/sacrifice he fulfilled the requirement of the Law economy that we(NT saints) should be ordained.
_____________________________
"[Prayer power] hasn't never been taxed to[His]full capacity. His standing challenge, 'Call on
Me and I will answer with great and mighty things which thou can't imagine." Hudson Tayor
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RE: Romans 3:30 "By faith/Through faith - 4/18/2008 6:55:07 PM
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Bluethread
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LCannon:
The problem with your argument is that it implies that Paul considers Jewish believer's to be Gentiles.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Romans 3:30 "By faith/Through faith - 4/18/2008 7:28:54 PM
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LCannon
Posts: 1291
Joined: 2/22/2007
From: Lebanon, OR
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I'm not arguing I'm stating my understanding of Romans 3. He's saying there's no difference between saints other then legacy.
< Message edited by LCannon -- 4/18/2008 7:36:18 PM >
_____________________________
"[Prayer power] hasn't never been taxed to[His]full capacity. His standing challenge, 'Call on
Me and I will answer with great and mighty things which thou can't imagine." Hudson Tayor
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RE: Romans 3:30 "By faith/Through faith - 4/18/2008 8:10:57 PM
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drfuss
Posts: 164
Joined: 3/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Anasazi_Avatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: drfuss
Romans 3:30 - "Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith."
What is the significance of saying that the circumcision is justified BY faith and the uncircumcision is justified THROUGH faith?
I assume it is the same faith, but why is one "by"faith and the other "through" faith?
Hi there,
To answer your question: This verse talks of the difference between the Jews and the Gentiles.
Those of the Jewish faith, when they reach the age of 8 days old are physically circumcised [in the flesh]. And as they grow up in their belief they should live their lives according to what the Jews believe. When they do this God will justify them. This is because they are living according to the teachings of the OT. A child of 8 days old does not know to believe in anything spiritual, and will, as he/she grows, live according to the rules and doctrines of the Jewish faith.
To the Gentiles, when we believe are not physically circumcised [in the flesh], but are spiritually circumcised [separated from worldly ways and desires]. When we believe and accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour, separate ourselves from worldly ways and desires. We live [through our faith], according to the teaching of Christ and His commandments. We do not live by the doctrines of the OT, but by following after Christ. JOHN 1:1 shows that Jesus Christ is the Word. He is the Scriptures that we read. Therefore when we believe and receive our beginning faith, (EPH. 2:8), as a gift from God, we then start to live according to the Word. Yes we do need to buy things and live in the world, but we do not live as the world lives, chasing riches and fame, and power over others. When we reach complete faith we will live totally in God and He will supply ALL our needs as He did for those that Christ sent out in MATT. chapt 10.
In short: The Jews are circumcised in the world[flesh], and then grow in faith and belief, with their eyes focussed on the promise of the coming of the Messiah, as promised by God. Gentiles first believe then receive the gift of faith, and are then circumcised from the world[spiritual]. We then live according to the Word, not the world.
I hope this explains it for you.
Maranatha.
drfuss: Thank you for your good explanation. My friend and I are still studing it and will get back to you if we have more questions.
The other explanations are also interesting. Thank you all.
< Message edited by drfuss -- 4/18/2008 8:17:12 PM >
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RE: Romans 3:30 "By faith/Through faith - 4/21/2008 5:51:36 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Anasazi_Avatar
When they do this God will justify them. This is because they are living according to the teachings of the OT.
I must strongly disagree. As Paul tells us no one has ever been justified by living a Kosher lifestyle. The Jewish man is justied by faith alone. Since he has, hopefully, been taught The Word, he knows how Adonai wishes him to live and therefore, lives that way to show his gratitude to Adonai for that salvation. Or as you put it, "they grow up in their belief they should live their lives according to what the Jews believe."
quote:
Gentiles first believe then receive the gift of faith . . .
I also must disagree with that statement. "Salvation is by grace through faith, and that(faith) not of yourselves, it is the gift of Adonai . . ." Thus the Gentile is saved by faith alone. Since he has not been taught The Word, he does not know how Adonai wishes him to live. Therefore, he shows his gratitude to Adonai by believing in The Word as he studies it. Or as you put it, "We(Gentiles I presume) then live according to the Word, not the world."
Thus all are saved by grace through faith, the Jewish person showing his gratitude by his faithfullness to The Word and the Gentile shows his gratitude through believing in The Word. Thus, both are saved by the same means and grow in The Word the same way. The only difference is one is taught The Word from birth and the other studies it later in life.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 4/21/2008 6:00:08 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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