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Sell your mantle and buy a sword? - 6/7/2008 12:33:51 PM
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Him4all
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I am looking for imput on this verse:
LUK 22:36 He said to them, "But now, let him who has a purse take it, and likewise a bag. And let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy one.
I've never heard any teaching concerning what Jesus might have been talking about concerning 'buying a sword'. Has anyone had any documented insight concerning what this might have been 'historically' or 'symbolically' been talking about?
DR
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Doctrine learned and not lived is lost.
Eyes closed to advice may still be open to example.
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RE: Sell your mantle and buy a sword? - 6/7/2008 12:53:45 PM
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LCannon
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"...You had better pack suitcase and get your traveler’s checks if you are going out for the Lord today and give out the gospel. You had better be prepared to protect yourself and your loved ones. We are living in difficult days. The Lord said, “He that hath no sword let him sell his[extra] garment and buy[invest in]one.” Why? For self protection, of course. They were living in days that required a sword. We need to recognize that fact also. If we do not resist evil today, all kinds of evil will befall us. We could end up in the hospital or have some of our loved ones slain.-McGee, J. V. (1997, c1981). Thru the Bible commentary (electronic ed.)
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"But at my stumbling they gathered in glee...[but]How long, O Lord,
wilt thou look on?" -Psalms 35:15,1
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RE: Sell your mantle and buy a sword? - 6/7/2008 1:45:27 PM
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Little_1
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
I am looking for imput on this verse:
LUK 22:36 He said to them, "But now, let him who has a purse take it, and likewise a bag. And let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy one.
I've never heard any teaching concerning what Jesus might have been talking about concerning 'buying a sword'. Has anyone had any documented insight concerning what this might have been 'historically' or 'symbolically' been talking about?
DR
I have never heard a sermon or anyone speak on this particular verse either; however, what comes to mind is an analogy re: the Armour of God where the 'sword' is the 'Word of God', i.e. the Bible.
If I had no Bible - I would go and buy one as soon as I possibly could. For the Christian the Bible is a 'sword' and powerful weapon of offence against the enemy of our soul. Every Christian should know how to use this 'spiritual' weapon of warfare.
< Message edited by Little_1 -- 6/7/2008 1:56:16 PM >
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ROMANS 12:12
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RE: Sell your mantle and buy a sword? - 6/7/2008 2:40:27 PM
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rcjames
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I would think it means that personal protection is more improtant that keeping warm.
Thanks
RC
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RE: Sell your mantle and buy a sword? - 6/7/2008 9:15:49 PM
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Him4all
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LCannon,
Thank you for your imput from Vernon, but I was hoping for a 'historical' comment and not a 'hysterical' one. He may be right but I just wish he would have written something more substantive. I sounds like just his opinion. I am OK with opinions, but was truly hoping someone had some of that 'documented' thinking head stuff that prevails here at times.
I certainly understand your personal opinion also. Do you really think that we live in more difficult days than they? I'm not so sure myself. But in you 'heart of hearts', what do you do with all those 'pacifist' verses from Jesus which really don't allow for "self protection"?
Little_1,
Thank you also. I too considered your 'spiritualized' POV concerning that verse, as I've studied/meditated on it for the last two days. And your comment concerning the 'sword' being the 'word of God' is the same Greek word for sword that's used in this scripture. But when read in context, I'm not satisfied that there isn't something more 'literal' that we're not touching on yet.
rcjames,
Gee RC, am I supposed to put that profound comment under my spiritual thinking cap and meditate on it for a couple of years...or do you have something more you could add a little sooner. 
I appreciate you guys jumping in as soon as you did. I was hopeful to have a bit more by now though.
Personally, I have a difficulty thinking that if Jesus was walking the streets today, he would be holding a concealed weapon for protection. I just can't picture that in my head. That being the case, I also have a hard time believing that if He gave us all those 'high road' pacifist verses, that He would be giving us a 'low road' excuse to shoot them in self defense.
I certainly don't claim to have the faith that Jesus would demonstrate, and that's why I have a pistol under the mattress. If my faith wouldn't allow me to 'turn a cheek' or if I couldn't 'offer the burglar my 'leather coat/cloak' which he missed'....then I'd probably shoot. But is that God's highest for us?
I'm still hoping that someone has a 'Hebraism' or a 'figure of speech' or whatever that could give us more to look at.
Thanks for what you three have offered so far....well...two of you anyway. I'm still meditating about yours RC. 
DR
< Message edited by Him4all -- 6/7/2008 9:28:01 PM >
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Doctrine learned and not lived is lost.
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RE: Sell your mantle and buy a sword? - 6/8/2008 4:38:05 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
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Let us remember, at the time Jesus made this comment... the Bible did not exist yet. The OT canon was largely set but the NT hadn't been written yet... and think a large number of people here would chafe at the idea of the OT being the same sword as the one spoken of spiritually in the NT.
I think really the best part of this passage is to look at the scripture itself in the time period it was written in. A sword had many uses besides killing people. If one was attacked by an animal on the road, for example. However, we have to look at what Jesus said. Jesus prefaces this verse by asking them about the first time He sent them into the world... "When I sent you without money, shoes, or food, did you lack anything?" "But now, if you have a moneybag, take it. If you have no sword, sell your coat and buy one..." Specifically, Jesus is talking about providing for yourself from what God has given you. I think the big point being made by Jesus is that they had faith that God would provide for them, now they needed to work on having faith to partner with God in looking after their provision. Yet there is even more to this little escapade than that.
You can tell that Jesus is not specifically talking about His followers need to go arm themselves. The evidence being that following Jesus words His disciples tell Him "here are two swords" and Jesus tells them that that is enough. Funny, last I counted there were eleven guys. Even better, how would Peter have cut off the ear of the High Priest's servant if they didn't have at least one sword? "Pardon me whilst I attack your ear with a stiff herring from dinner..." You cannot bludgeon someone's ear off with a bit of a vertebrate... no matter how badly cooked. I honestly think that Jesus' message in this passage was telling the disciples that they were going to have to look out for themselves in the day ahead and to prepare for whatever may come. But that is just my thoughts.
Adam
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RE: Sell your mantle and buy a sword? - 6/8/2008 8:55:10 AM
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Little_1
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Let us remember, at the time Jesus made this comment... the Bible did not exist yet. The OT canon was largely set but the NT hadn't been written yet... and think a large number of people here would chafe at the idea of the OT being the same sword as the one spoken of spiritually in the NT.
I think really the best part of this passage is to look at the scripture itself in the time period it was written in. A sword had many uses besides killing people. If one was attacked by an animal on the road, for example. However, we have to look at what Jesus said. Jesus prefaces this verse by asking them about the first time He sent them into the world... "When I sent you without money, shoes, or food, did you lack anything?" "But now, if you have a moneybag, take it. If you have no sword, sell your coat and buy one..." Specifically, Jesus is talking about providing for yourself from what God has given you. I think the big point being made by Jesus is that they had faith that God would provide for them, now they needed to work on having faith to partner with God in looking after their provision. Yet there is even more to this little escapade than that.
You can tell that Jesus is not specifically talking about His followers need to go arm themselves. The evidence being that following Jesus words His disciples tell Him "here are two swords" and Jesus tells them that that is enough. Funny, last I counted there were eleven guys. Even better, how would Peter have cut off the ear of the High Priest's servant if they didn't have at least one sword? "Pardon me whilst I attack your ear with a stiff herring from dinner..." You cannot bludgeon someone's ear off with a bit of a vertebrate... no matter how badly cooked. I honestly think that Jesus' message in this passage was telling the disciples that they were going to have to look out for themselves in the day ahead and to prepare for whatever may come. But that is just my thoughts.
Adam
Fab points Adam. I never thought about this from the point of view of the time it was written - so excellent point. The uses for a sword (maybe a dagger - which is the type of 'sword' mentioned in Ephesians 6 and here) would be endless - like you say for fending off the attacks of wild animals; cutting up food, etc. Thanks for this excellent point of view. This is more likely what is meant. In this regard, what rcjames has mentioned also has relevancy and you could even use the sword to cut firewood to keep warm (it got very cold at night in the places where the disciples travelled).
< Message edited by Little_1 -- 6/8/2008 9:07:17 AM >
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"Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer."
ROMANS 12:12
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RE: Sell your mantle and buy a sword? - 6/8/2008 10:07:43 AM
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Him4all
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Adam,
I agree with Little concerning your time frame observation. Good point.
quote:
You can tell that Jesus is not specifically talking about His followers need to go arm themselves.
Now we're getting to the point that started me out thinking about this verse. Last week in the other adult Sunday school, my brother said that this was the verse that kind of settled the discussion for most of the class, that we need to go out and fight in 'worthy' wars. He had countered all the other verses brought up earlier but this one just came out of left field for him.
quote:
Even better, how would Peter have cut off the ear of the High Priest's servant if they didn't have at least one sword?
Interestingly enough, in the context of this 'sword' statement by Jesus, when one of the apostles said, "Lord, look we have two swords", Jesus told them "that's enough" (Luke 22:38). So if it was just about 'protection'....what about the other apostles? So I believe there is yet more here. Was the cutting off of the servants ear the "transgression" that numbered Jesus with transgressors (Luk 22:37)?
DR
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Doctrine learned and not lived is lost.
Eyes closed to advice may still be open to example.
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RE: Sell your mantle and buy a sword? - 6/8/2008 10:16:25 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
quote:
Even better, how would Peter have cut off the ear of the High Priest's servant if they didn't have at least one sword?
Interestingly enough, in the context of this 'sword' statement by Jesus, when one of the apostles said, "Lord, look we have two swords", Jesus told them "that's enough" (Luke 22:38). So if it was just about 'protection'....what about the other apostles? So I believe there is yet more here. Was the cutting off of the servants ear the "transgression" that numbered Jesus with transgressors (Luk 22:37)?
I take a reading of that passage to mean that Jesus was through with the discussion and was about more important things; because in the next verse he leaves to go to the Mount to pray.
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: Sell your mantle and buy a sword? - 6/8/2008 2:46:36 PM
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Little_1
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
I take a reading of that passage to mean that Jesus was through with the discussion and was about more important things; because in the next verse he leaves to go to the Mount to pray.
Thanks
RC
Another worthy observation. Good point RC
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"Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer."
ROMANS 12:12
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RE: Sell your mantle and buy a sword? - 6/8/2008 6:11:48 PM
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eschatologist
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Personnally I don't believe that the main point is whether it is right or wrong to carry a weapon to defend oneself. For one thing, after one of the disciples used his sword to cut off the right ear of the high priests servant, Jesus said, "Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Thinkest thou not that I cannot now pray to my Father, and He shall presently give me more than 12 legions of Angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be." He told the disciples to take a sword, but then He rebukes them for using the sword. So I believe that the this is a lesson that He wanted to teach His disciples and all of His followers, including us. And remember what Jesus told Pilot a little later on?
"My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews. But now is my kingdom not from hence."(John 18:36) In other words, His kingdom is not an earthly kingdom, because if it were an earthly kingdom His disciples would take up swords and spears and other physical weapons of warfare to defend Him and prevent Him from being captured and taken prisoner.
So there are 2 main lessons that I believe the Loed is teaching here.
!) He told the disciples to bring a sword in order to teach the lesson that we shouldn't use such weapons to defend ourselves from evil people and from those who try to persecute us. We should trust in the Lord for our safety and security. As it says in the psalms, "Some trust in chariots and some trust in Horses but we will remember the name of the Lord our God." and "it is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
2) Persecution is sometimes part of God's over-all plan to fulfill His will in us. In Jesus' case He was willingly laying down His life for us to save us from our own sins. He could have gotten out of it by calling on God the Father to protect Him and God would have sent legions of Angels to help Him. But Jesus knew that wasn't God's plan or will. So what looked bad and horrifying to the disciples (Their Lord and Master, the promised Messiah being led away to be executed as a common criminal) was actually a good thing in the long run, because it brought the promise and hope of Salvation to all men. But His disciples didn't understand this at first. They still had their heads stuck in some kind of earthly kingdom.
In our case, if we get attacked or persecuted by people who hate Jesus and what He stands for, we are to trust in the Lord and call out to Him for protection. Then we are to rejoice and be exceeding glad that we are persecuted, because it ensures that our reward will be great in Heaven. Then whether the Lord protects you from your persecutors or whether He allows them to martyr you, you've got it made one way or another. Your persecutors are merely promoting you to God's heavenly eternal kingdom that is not of this world, but which will last forever.
But if you use a gun, for example, to defend yourselves from your persecutors they might shoot you first, even though it might be the Lord's will for you to live. But He couldn't protect you as much because you depended on your own arm of the flesh and physical weapons instead of the Lord.
So that's one of the lessons I believe the Lord was trying to teach His disciples through all of this.
(This doesn't apply to using a knife or sabor, or whatever, to hunt and/or protect yourselves from wild animals. Or to use a knife to cut meat or veggies or whatever. That's a different subject and has nothing to do with this little lesson in the bible.)
< Message edited by eschatologist -- 6/8/2008 6:23:30 PM >
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RE: Sell your mantle and buy a sword? - 6/10/2008 6:46:28 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Let us remember, at the time Jesus made this comment... the Bible did not exist yet. The OT canon was largely set but the NT hadn't been written yet... and think a large number of people here would chafe at the idea of the OT being the same sword as the one spoken of spiritually in the NT.
I do not believe this verse is alagorical since Paul's spiritual armour analogy was written after Yeshua's(Jesus') death. I believe he is telling us that we can expect hard times and need to be prepared. Regarding Paul's analogy, I don't understand why Paul would be refering to anything other than the Tanach and a few other writtings he might have considered Scripture at the time, when he speaks of "the sword of the Spirit".
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RE: Sell your mantle and buy a sword? - 6/11/2008 1:07:17 PM
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bob97
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Christ desires us to display meekness in this life. I think that means to walk softly turn the other cheek but carry a big stick
Bob
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RE: Sell your mantle and buy a sword? - 6/11/2008 1:37:13 PM
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Lapidoth
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I'll have to give a IMHO tag to this.
Seems I may be alone on this one. lol.
I've always felt it was "a" fulfillment of being
numbered with the rebellious, the sinners.
I can't recall off hand the scripture. Hanging
between the two thieves would have been another
fulfillment.
I recall part of it was "numbered among" . . . . .
They didn't buy one. One of them had a dagger of sorts.
And I plan on getting a concealed weapon permit in the sometime future myself.
Not necessarily for personal protection, but you never know what situation you
will find yourself in. Turn the cheek yes, but when the kids are being shot down
it's time to take action. We had two girls just this week shot down for walking
down a dirt road in Oklahoma. In a desolate place that makes them think it was a local person.
Anyway, another subject for another thread.
But, being numbered among them would be a fulfillment.
Everything that Christ did was in fulfillment of the Torah and Prophets.
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RE: Sell your mantle and buy a sword? - 6/11/2008 1:46:34 PM
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bob97
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Lap...no brother you're not alone, there are many that feel exactly like you...my self included.
God will tell me when and where I need to display force...He guides me in everything else.
Bob
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The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Sell your mantle and buy a sword? - 6/12/2008 1:04:04 AM
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Stephanos
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There is a vast difference between letting someone kill you because you are a Christian, and letting someoen kill you for your money, and rape your wife and daughter. People that cant see that need a real reality check and some deep prayer letting God show them there is nothing good or holy about a WASTEFUL death.
I believe that Jesus' command to buy a sword was for basic defense. Not from people targeting them for their faith, but for basic safety, against thieves and wild animals on the roads. And as for the instance with Peter and Jesus' rebuke. That was not about no self defense, but Peter AGAIN not understanding what Jesus was sent on this earth to do.
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RE: Sell your mantle and buy a sword? - 6/12/2008 1:32:26 AM
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fiat_lux
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quote:
I believe that Jesus' command to buy a sword was for basic defense. Not from people targeting them for their faith, but for basic safety, against thieves and wild animals on the roads. And as for the instance with Peter and Jesus' rebuke. That was not about no self defense, but Peter AGAIN not understanding what Jesus was sent on this earth to do.
I'm not so sure, at least on the basis of this passage alone. Earlier, Jesus sent out disciples in pairs, and explicitly told them to go out with basically nothing and live on charity. Included in this would be going without swords as means of self-defence.
Later on, he tells the group of 12 or so together that they should arm themselves, but is content when they have only two swords.
There doesn't seem to be a consistent teaching on self-defence. If he did intend to make this a teaching on the subject, he might have been more explicit, too. To take it absolutely literally, what he said was that we could carry swords, but he didn't say whether we could use them.
quote:
There is a vast difference between letting someone kill you because you are a Christian, and letting someoen kill you for your money, and rape your wife and daughter. People that cant see that need a real reality check and some deep prayer letting God show them there is nothing good or holy about a WASTEFUL death.
Hopefully no death we face is wasteful, though I admit that a lot of death is - that is the nature of this world of sin we live in. However, I'm not sure I agree with the logic here. If it would be wrong to harm another in defence of my faith in Christ, which is the most important thing I have, then I'm not sure why it would somehow be right to harm someone in defence of my money, which is much less valuable to me than my faith.
I really can't speak to the other as I have neither a wife nor a daughter. I'm not sure how or whether that would alter my generally pacifist position. Others have to make up their own minds, obviously, as to what they think is right.
< Message edited by fiat_lux -- 6/12/2008 1:38:29 AM >
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RE: Sell your mantle and buy a sword? - 6/12/2008 11:46:15 AM
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Bluethread
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After reading the posts, it strikes me that we might have the seeds of the second amendment to the US constitution. I clearly believe that that ammendment has nothing to do with hunting or personal self defense, but defense of the local community from tyranny. I don't think the context is conclusive, but this looks like a similar thing.
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RE: Sell your mantle and buy a sword? - 6/12/2008 11:52:41 AM
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Stephanos
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
There doesn't seem to be a consistent teaching on self-defence. If he did intend to make this a teaching on the subject, he might have been more explicit, too. To take it absolutely literally, what he said was that we could carry swords, but he didn't say whether we could use them.
One could also argue the other side. If Jesus did want us to be complete pacifists, would not he have made his teachings clearer? To take his "turn the cheek" statement literally in ALL cases , why would he also tell the apostles to have TWO swords at all?
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RE: Sell your mantle and buy a sword? - 6/12/2008 11:59:45 AM
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OLEEguacamole
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the rebuke of Jesus to the disciples use of the sword to defend Him, could have easily been understood as, don't use your sword against men for any reason. after all, defending Jesus, how important is that!? but Jesus told them that HE did not not defending, His purpose was different.
the use of the sword however was still valid under different circumstances (just not in defending Jesus)
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RE: Sell your mantle and buy a sword? - 6/12/2008 12:05:25 PM
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bob97
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When governments break down and anarchy rules you can talk about defending the local community but in many cases that means defending your only family. Now if you classify family as local community then I agree. Case in point is what happened in New Orleans.
I’ve had fire arms for all my life and I’ve never even been tempted to use one in self defense…I hope that remains the case for the rest of my life. I’ve been in some tough situations and the Lord has always extracted me from harm.
Indiscriminate use of a weapon brings momentous consequences both from the law of man and God
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Sell your mantle and buy a sword? - 6/12/2008 12:14:54 PM
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OLEEguacamole
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my community is short on law enforcement and there have been local seminars an defending yourself and property.
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RE: Sell your mantle and buy a sword? - 6/12/2008 12:51:54 PM
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bluestone
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Quote from NIV study Bible Footnotes:
"Until now they had been dependent on generous hospitality, but future opposition would require them to be prepared to pay their own way. buy one. An extreme figure of speech used to warn them of the perilous times about to come. They would need defense and protection"
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RE: Sell your mantle and buy a sword? - 6/12/2008 1:02:54 PM
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Him4all
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I guess I'm in the boat of 'pacifism' to the degree that I have the faith to walk in it. I cannot picture Jesus with a hidden pistol for any purpose, not even for personal defense. And He is my 'forerunner' and example. And if I die as a 'pacifist for Christ' does it matter whether or not 'man' knew I was wastefully dying as 'a Christian'?...'A Christian' who was choosing to lay his life down, that the killer might not die at my hand and live to possibly be saved another day!!! Will my reward in heaven be canceled because that 'man' or 'any man' didn't know that's why I refused self defense?
Will the wife who determines to stay with a wife beating husband on the grounds of trying to win him to Christ...have any less reward after being killed by him, than a missionary who dies in Sudan for the very same purpose of living/dying like Christ for the gospel? I think not, but the real question for me is do we the faith to live like that? I honestly won't know until I'm in that spot...with my own life or that of my wife or my children/grandchildren.
quote:
my community is short on law enforcement and there have been local seminars an defending yourself and property.
Has a 'local' church countered with a position of dying as a testimony to the faith? Or have they at least countered, as the Amish people did, with promoting an attitude of forgiveness for the 'killers'? What a testimony it was for those Amish people to go to the parents of the slayer of their own children...and be forgiving Christians. A testimony to 'Christ and Christianity' that made national news! I can only hope that my testimony would be as good.
DR
< Message edited by Him4all -- 6/12/2008 1:33:07 PM >
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Doctrine learned and not lived is lost.
Eyes closed to advice may still be open to example.
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I've been in some prayer groups where the husband and wife were obviously both praying against each other so much, it might not have been a bad idea to just 'slap leather' (not my bible) shootem both and let Jesus deal with them...if you know what I mean. 
