|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/10/2008 1:16:40 PM
|
|
|
NealIRC
Posts: 68
Joined: 5/30/2008
Status: offline
|
I'm traditionally against the death penalty. It's uncivil. We're in the 21st century - shouldn't we be acting more civil? As a society we say that killing someone is wrong. How can we say that and then put someone to death? Isn't that the ultimate in hypocrisy? The death penalty unfortunately doesn't protect the public and makes no economic sense.
The United States has a death penalty. Whereas Mexico and Canada doesn't. Neither does France, Germany, or Italy. I'm from the U.S. and think it should be abolished. So what do you guys think?
Appeal to sympathy arguments.
1.The punishment is the same as the crime committed - killing a person. Shouldn't the government lead by example?
Not all countries have a death penalty for killing. Some are notably less. Singapore is a country which carries a mandatory death sentence for those caught with more than 15 grams of heroin.
2.It is the wrong way to use revenge. The same thing that happens to someone sentenced the death penalty happens to your grandma. How does this "revenge" or "feel better" do any significance?
Statistical arguments.
3.The death penalty is not a deterrent. Data suggests that this form of punishment doesn't stop the crime at all. Probably because people that kill others are mentally unstable, or their crime is 1 of passion most that can kill have major personality disorders, so the death penalty doesn't stop them.
Economic reasons.
4.It's far cheaper to house someone for the rest of their life then it is to exhaust their appeals. What population percentage of people sentenced the death penalty don't actually appeal?
The following are all U.S. statistics.
Mistakes from the past.
5.The governments has at many times sentenced an innocent person - this isn't acceptable. Even the chance that we put *1* person to death that doesn't deserve it means that the whole thing should be stopped. The state murdered an innocent - so do we go and put the government to death? Or is someone going to make the argument that this is just an acceptable loss?
On April 23, 2007, D.N.A. cleared its 200th person another milestone for a technology that has not only reversed convictions but has also prompted a more critical look at flaws in the justice system - from crime lab work to the way arson cases are investigated. The 1st reversal case was in 1989. The 100th case happened in 13 years, but 5 to double that number.
Historical bias.
While the death penalty in the United States has far improved, it has had a huge historial bias, particular on race.
Blacks.
Between 1930 and 1976, 405 of the 455 men who were executed for rape, a capital offense until 1977, were black.
More than 80% of those who have been executed since 1976 were found guilty of killing whites. This has been verified by the U.S. Accounting Office, which in a 1990 review, stated, "Those who murdered whites were found to be more likely to be sentenced to death than those who murdered blacks."
Only 6 executions since 1976 have seen white prisoners put to death for killing blacks.
Juveniles (under 18).
Between 1973 and 1998, of the total 6,300 imposed deaths, 173 of them were juveniles, and 11 of them have been executed, 8 since 1990.
In 1988, the U.S. Supreme Court set the minimum age limit of the death penalty to 16 (in the Thompson versus Oklahoma case). On March 1, 2005, they upped it up to 18.
Studies show that the majority of juveniles convicted of violent crimes had been subjected to abuse as young children.
So what do you guys think?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/10/2008 1:25:40 PM
|
|
|
zamdad
Posts: 1318
Joined: 4/8/2005
Status: offline
|
As someone who has worked in the criminal justice system for more than 16 years and written countless pre-sentence investigation reports, my thoughts are that the argument about the death penalty does nothing to stop crime or stop our ever increasing population of those who are incarcerated. Instead of arguing about the morality of the death penalty, why are we not making disciples of those who continually frequent our jails and prisons, clog up our courts, and cause harm to our communities?
_____________________________
Change is not necessarily reform anymore than noise is music.
-Unknown-
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/10/2008 1:47:48 PM
|
|
|
Solus
Posts: 100
Joined: 5/27/2008
Status: offline
|
I am strongly against the death penalty. It made sense in ancient times but not anymore. Now we have the ability to put criminals in prison for life. Sometimes they can even change their ways in prison. The "Son of Sam" is a good example.
EDIT: I like the system that they have in some European countries. you are put in a small, cold, dark cell with a bucket for a toilet for a few years. They almost always change their ways after that.
< Message edited by Solus -- 6/10/2008 1:54:38 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/10/2008 2:21:20 PM
|
|
|
MrFribbles
Posts: 1240
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
|
I'm still undecided on this issue. I will say that there are very few instances where I feel the death penalty should be invoked. One of the few times I would lean more towards the death penalty are those who commit grievous crimes against children. If someone rapes and murders children, then I would feel very inclined to say that they deserve the death penalty.
But, like I said, it's something I'm still working through, so I can't say anything for certain.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/10/2008 2:52:45 PM
|
|
|
Bro_Shane
Posts: 1084
Joined: 8/4/2005
Status: offline
|
Please define "civil." What you think is civil and what I think is civil might be two different things. However, I think we could both agree that anyone who takes another human life over a TV, a wallet, or an argument is not being civil.
So there have been mistakes, should we not allow new medical practices to be performed if doctors make mistakes? Also, I was not aware that utter perfection was a requirement for anything government does - if so, it all needs to be shut down (which might not be a bad idea).
A novel idea would be for the bleeding hearts to step aside and let those on death row make the journey to the other shore. When people actually fear they will be put to death, we might actually get somewhere.
_____________________________
Prayer is not where we change God's mind, it is where He changes ours.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/10/2008 2:53:16 PM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 5250
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
I am for the death penality, but not in its present form.
There should be a 3 or 6 month absolute limit for the death penality to be imposed after sentencing.
The lengthly waits (15 to 25 years) voids the deterrent effect of the penalty.
As it was done in the 1800's was much more effective; publically and quickly.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/10/2008 2:56:28 PM
|
|
|
Solus
Posts: 100
Joined: 5/27/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
Please define "civil." What you think is civil and what I think is civil might be two different things. However, I think we could both agree that anyone who takes another human life over a TV, a wallet, or an argument is not being civil.
So there have been mistakes, should we not allow new medical practices to be performed if doctors make mistakes? Also, I was not aware that utter perfection was a requirement for anything government does - if so, it all needs to be shut down (which might not be a bad idea).
A novel idea would be for the bleeding hearts to step aside and let those on death row make the journey to the other shore. When people actually fear they will be put to death, we might actually get somewhere.
The point of medical practices is not to kill people, unlike the death penalty in which the primary motive is revenge. And America, one of the last major countries that still has the death penalty, also has one of the highest murder rates. The death penalty does nothing to deter crime.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/10/2008 3:00:16 PM
|
|
|
Bro_Shane
Posts: 1084
Joined: 8/4/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Solus
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
Please define "civil." What you think is civil and what I think is civil might be two different things. However, I think we could both agree that anyone who takes another human life over a TV, a wallet, or an argument is not being civil.
So there have been mistakes, should we not allow new medical practices to be performed if doctors make mistakes? Also, I was not aware that utter perfection was a requirement for anything government does - if so, it all needs to be shut down (which might not be a bad idea).
A novel idea would be for the bleeding hearts to step aside and let those on death row make the journey to the other shore. When people actually fear they will be put to death, we might actually get somewhere.
The point of medical practices is not to kill people, unlike the death penalty in which the primary motive is revenge. And America, one of the last major countries that still has the death penalty, also has one of the highest murder rates. The death penalty does nothing to deter crime.
First, I was not arguing outcome, I was arguing from the point of utility (which I thought was the point of the OP). Second, I question your assertion that the death penalty is a matter of revenge. Third, the death penalty is not being carried out as designed. It is being hindered at every turn by those who seem to think they know better than anyone else how government ought to be run. Until you can get those people out of the system and let governments do what they should, you can not say it is not a deterrent. It is akin to driving a car with a flat tire and deciding all cares are useless as a form of transportation.
_____________________________
Prayer is not where we change God's mind, it is where He changes ours.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/10/2008 3:07:55 PM
|
|
|
Jhud
Posts: 7509
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
|
I am for the death penalty because it is Scriptural, right, just, preventative, and ultimately beneficial for a nation.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/10/2008 3:14:50 PM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 6501
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
The death penalty did not prevent serial killers like Ted Bundy from taking human life. It did, however, prevent them from ever killing again. And escapee murders are evidence that there are no guarantees life in prison will protect people.
Also, NT states God ordained the government to wield the sword - to use as needed to protect us.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/10/2008 3:24:27 PM
|
|
|
Solus
Posts: 100
Joined: 5/27/2008
Status: offline
|
But there are other alternatives. As I said earlier, the Son of Sam became a Christian while in prison. Had he been killed this would not have happened.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/10/2008 7:38:34 PM
|
|
|
Cloak
Posts: 4139
Joined: 1/4/2008
From: Canada
Status: offline
|
I am AGAINST death or capital punishment or penalty. Most of those murderers are mentally-ill people who were brought up in abusive dysfunctional homes and families where they did not know anything about love, respect or self-esteem or biblical wisdom and right from wrong. Therefore, they got wounded and had no role model or good example for them to follow or look up to which eventually led to their perversion.
God did Not create these criminals evil!!!
Criminals need psychological Christian counseling. They need love, acceptance, re-education. If Jesus were here, I am pretty sure He would show them love and acceptance esp. those among them who repented and showed genuine desire for change.
< Message edited by Cloak -- 6/11/2008 11:03:14 AM >
_____________________________
And My God shall meet ALL Your Needs according to His glorious riches in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 4: 19)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/10/2008 7:46:29 PM
|
|
|
stellaluna
Posts: 4015
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
I am for it.
_____________________________
I'm tired of signatures.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/10/2008 7:51:40 PM
|
|
|
Bro_Shane
Posts: 1084
Joined: 8/4/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Cloak
God did Not create these criminals evil!!!
No, but through the fallen nature they did a great job of messing things up. God may not have created mankind as evil, but through the imputation of sin we are all born into a nature in which the will and ability to do evil is there in all of us.
_____________________________
Prayer is not where we change God's mind, it is where He changes ours.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/10/2008 8:03:02 PM
|
|
|
Cloak
Posts: 4139
Joined: 1/4/2008
From: Canada
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
quote:
ORIGINAL: Cloak
God did Not create these criminals evil!!!
No, but through the fallen nature they did a great job of messing things up. God may not have created mankind as evil, but through the imputation of sin we are all born into a nature in which the will and ability to do evil is there in all of us.
The Bible says "Thou shall not kill."
Just imagine if Jesus came again to live with us on earth. Do you think He will not reach out to help them repent heal and be restored. Some might refuse His love, but some others will repent and accept His love.
These people are poor and victims. They have been misled, misguided, and miseducated by their misled well-meaning parents.
Killing criminals does not solve their problems.
Introducing them to the Love of God Does and Can solve many of their problems and restore them to sanity and wisdom, in particular those among them who are wise and humble who want to Genuinely change!
[b]Killing criminals does not repair culture. By contrast, Jesus' love heals!
_____________________________
And My God shall meet ALL Your Needs according to His glorious riches in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 4: 19)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/10/2008 8:39:11 PM
|
|
|
SteveSund
Posts: 554
Joined: 11/8/2005
From: Michigan
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: NealIRC
On April 23, 2007, D.N.A. cleared its 200th person another milestone for a technology that has not only reversed convictions but has also prompted a more critical look at flaws in the justice system - from crime lab work to the way arson cases are investigated. The 1st reversal case was in 1989. The 100th case happened in 13 years, but 5 to double that number.
This is one of the more compelling arguments.
quote:
The United States has a death penalty. Whereas Mexico and Canada doesn't. Neither does France, Germany, or Italy. I'm from the U.S. and think it should be abolished. So what do you guys think?
Not all states have the death penalty. Michigan abolished it in 1846 and was the first English speaking government to do so.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/10/2008 8:47:28 PM
|
|
|
upNORTder
Posts: 227
Joined: 7/20/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
As it was done in the 1800's was much more effective; publically and quickly.
What about justly?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/10/2008 9:30:51 PM
|
|
|
SonInMe1
Posts: 3529
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
Status: offline
|
We are called to protect the innocent. Life in prison does this.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/10/2008 10:08:12 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4508
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
Genesis 9:6 Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man.
Numbers 35:31 Do not accept a ransom for the life of a murderer, who deserves to die. He must surely be put to death.
Numbers 35:33 Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land, and atonement cannot be made for the land on which blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it.
Ex 21:12 Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death.
Matt 5:21-22 You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ´Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.´ But I tell you … anyone who says, `You fool!´ will be in danger of the fire of hell."
According to the bible the judgment for murder is death... See Ex 21:12
Luke 23:41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.
These words were spoken by one of the criminals who were hanging on a cross next to Jesus. The scripture clearly testifies of the legal conscience that people during all times have had. A death-sentenced criminal confesses that the flogging and the death sentence that was imposed on him were "just". And not only that, he himself felt that he "deserved" death.
Acts 25:11 If, however, I am guilty of doing anything deserving death, I do not refuse to die.
Here the apostle Paul answers to a governor and is being threatened by the capital punishment. The interesting thing is that Paul does not take the opportunity to speak up against the "barbaric death penalty." On the contrary, Paul acknowledges Rome’s right to use the death penalty and also he is allowed to serve as an example of the universal legal consciousness that has existed throughout all times. Paul is really saying that each and everyone who "deserves" a death sentence should have it imposed on them, even if it would mean himself.
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/10/2008 10:12:35 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4508
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Solus
The point of medical practices is not to kill people, unlike the death penalty in which the primary motive is revenge.
Is God's motive revenge in His command to put those who murder to death?
quote:
And America, one of the last major countries that still has the death penalty, also has one of the highest murder rates. The death penalty does nothing to deter crime.
The validity of death penalty doesn't rest on being a deterrent, it's the just punishment for the sin/crime according to the bible...
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/10/2008 10:19:53 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4508
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
As someone who has worked in the criminal justice system for more than 16 years and written countless pre-sentence investigation reports, my thoughts are that the argument about the death penalty does nothing to stop crime or stop our ever increasing population of those who are incarcerated. Instead of arguing about the morality of the death penalty, why are we not making disciples of those who continually frequent our jails and prisons, clog up our courts, and cause harm to our communities?
There is no real argument... The bible is painfully clear on what should be done with those who unlawfully take a life... Nothing in the bible speaks to punishment having to decrease crime, or is there anything in the bible that says one should have their punishment set aside so they can be preached too... Given the the average time on death row time for making these folks disciples is the last problem... The "good" thief is a clear example that even someone gettting justly due reward (death) can be saved... He paid the temporal price for this actions, yet eternally he was forgiven...
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/10/2008 10:22:41 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4508
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Cloak
I am AGAINST death or capital punishment or penalty. Most of those murderers are mentally-ill people who were brought up in abusive dysfunctional where they did not know anything about love, respect or esteem biblical wisdom and right from wrong. Therefore they got wounded and had no role model or good example for them to follow or look up to which eventually led to their perversion.
God did Not create these criminals evil!!!
Criminals need psychological Christian counseling. They need love, acceptance, re-education. If Jesus were here, I am pretty sure He would show them love and acceptance esp. those among them who repented and showed genuine desire for change.
Jesus' time on the cross directly refutes your view...
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/10/2008 10:32:15 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4508
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Cloak
The Bible says "Thou shall not kill."
If one doesn't make the disctinction between killing and murder one cannot escape calling a God a mass murderer of men, women, and children...
quote:
Just imagine if Jesus came again to live with us on earth.
While on earth Jesus said the following...
Matt 5:21-22
"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ´Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.´ But I tell you … anyone who says, `You fool!´ will be in danger of the fire of hell."
Matt 15:3-4 "Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, ´Honor your father and mother´ and ´Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death´."
quote:
Do you think He will not reach out to help them repent heal and be restored. Some might refuse His love, but some others will repent and accept His love.
Yes some do, and like the theif on the cross, justly recieved his due reward, death by the minister of God for those who do evil, which at the time was the Roman government...
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/10/2008 10:33:53 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4508
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
We are called to protect the innocent. Life in prison does this.
The bible calls for a certain punishment for unlawfulyl taking life...
John
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
