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The entrance of evil into the universe - 5/7/2008 1:49:15 AM
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pmilst
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Why did God allow the rebellion of Satan, the fall of other angelic creatures and the sin of man. As the creator of all things and the judge of men's and angel's hearts, could not He have stopped these events in there infancy? There is no accusation of God in this question, but great curiousity as to various answers.
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RE: The entrance of evil into the universe - 5/7/2008 2:39:17 AM
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SinnerSaved
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God did not create evil. Everything He made was good (except man, which was 'very good'). But He is not a pupeteer. He gave us free will to choose, and that is the problem. Evil is not an entity that entered into the universe. It is the lack of good in our hearts. God did not create evil, but He allowed it to enter our hearts because He allowed us free will.
_____________________________
"No man is an island, entire of itself...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."
John Donne
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RE: The entrance of evil into the universe - 5/7/2008 2:57:53 AM
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pmilst
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Where did evil come from, what was its generation? Was there a time in Heaven when there was no potential for sin and rebellion?
quote:
ORIGINAL: SinnerSaved
God did not create evil. Everything He made was good (except man, which was 'very good'). But He is not a pupeteer. He gave us free will to choose, and that is the problem. Evil is not an entity that entered into the universe. It is the lack of good in our hearts. God did not create evil, but He allowed it to enter our hearts because He allowed us free will.
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RE: The entrance of evil into the universe - 5/7/2008 3:10:22 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pmilst
Why did God allow the rebellion of Satan, the fall of other angelic creatures and the sin of man. As the creator of all things and the judge of men's and angel's hearts, could not He have stopped these events in there infancy? There is no accusation of God in this question, but great curiousity as to various answers.
Since God is omnipotent, He "allowed" everything to happen precisely as it did because it was a part of His plan. Before the universe had even been created Christ was the "Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world".
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: The entrance of evil into the universe - 5/7/2008 3:51:29 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
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pmilist, why bump up against a fun discussion by asking this question. God created all things to serve Him and Satan was filled with pride at the wonder of his own being. Since God is perfectly Holy, doing anything contrary to His nature is therby "evil". So in actuality, good and evil have no point of generation because they are not actually "created" proper. Now we come to the fun part....
quote:
Why did God allow the rebellion of Satan, the fall of other angelic creatures and the sin of man. As the creator of all things and the judge of men's and angel's hearts, could not He have stopped these events in there infancy? There is no accusation of God in this question, but great curiousity as to various answers. Because God, though omnipotent, does not micromanage everything we say, do, or believe. Though He has the power and the capacity to do so, in His humility and Love God has chosen to allow us to direct our own paths... so we can choose to follow Him or not. Namely, because love requires a choice. Hope that helps.
Adam
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I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: The entrance of evil into the universe - 5/7/2008 8:46:36 AM
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ta_mosquito
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Moving from The Bible to Christian Doctrine.
Thanks!
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RE: The entrance of evil into the universe - 5/7/2008 8:54:07 AM
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earthless
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Great response, Adam!
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: The entrance of evil into the universe - 5/7/2008 10:13:25 AM
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AoibhinnGrainne
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SinnerSaved
God did not create evil. Everything He made was good (except man, which was 'very good'). But He is not a pupeteer. He gave us free will to choose, and that is the problem. Evil is not an entity that entered into the universe. It is the lack of good in our hearts. God did not create evil, but He allowed it to enter our hearts because He allowed us free will.
Isaiah 45:5-10 ~ I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. 8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. 9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? 10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?
According to this bit of Scripture, GOD created evil.
If you truly believe in a sovereign God, that nothing exists apart from Him, then God created evil as well as good.
Nothing happens apart from His will (Matthew 10:29). Satan has to have God's permission to test and try us! (Job 1:6-12).
At the very least, we needs must accept that God created the third of Heaven that rebelled against Him. Did He create them flawed? Twisted? Marred in some way? Are we now saying God made a mistake? That something went awry apart from Him???
Are you an Open Theist <chuckle>?
Or was this a part of His sovereign Plan all along?
Is God the author of evil? Of course not! James tells us that! (James 1:13).
But if we accept a Creator God and a Universe that, in it's pre-existence, was brought forth from the mind of God out of nothingness, then we also, rationally, need to accept that God also created evil...as Isaiah says above...but does not tempt us nor cause us to evil. We have the choice just as Adam and Eve did to choose God or to choose evil...
Aoi.
_____________________________
Be a woman so wrapped up in the Heart of God, that a Man of God has to search the Heart of God to find you...
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RE: The entrance of evil into the universe - 5/7/2008 4:32:55 PM
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SinnerSaved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AoibhinnGrainne
Are you an Open Theist <chuckle>?
No, I am not an Open Theist. God is omnipotent.
But then it's like asking the question could God create a rock he cannot lift? If you answer 'No' then He is not omnipotent. If you answer 'Yes' then He's not omnipotent.
The question is fundamentally flawed though, because only God is infinite, and a rock that God cannot lift would also need to be of an infinite size.
So it is with evil. Of course I believe in a sovereign God. Absolutely. However, did He create evil? Well, I think that you need to define evil. As I said in my post, I believe that evil is not an entity (ie something that can be created). I believe that it an absence of something - ie good. It's the same as light, which we know He created from Genesis 1:3. But what then is dark? Is it not the absence of light? Did He have to create dark before He created light? No.
quote:
ORIGINAL: AoibhinnGrainne
At the very least, we needs must accept that God created the third of Heaven that rebelled against Him. Did He create them flawed? Twisted? Marred in some way? Are we now saying God made a mistake? That something went awry apart from Him???
The bible does not tell us anything about their creation, so I am not going to respond to this taunt, except to say that He gave angels freewill as He did man. Yes, Satan rebelled because of pride and was cast out of heaven with a third of the angels who freely chose to follow his lead.
< Message edited by SinnerSaved -- 5/7/2008 4:39:50 PM >
_____________________________
"No man is an island, entire of itself...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."
John Donne
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RE: The entrance of evil into the universe - 5/7/2008 5:01:49 PM
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AoibhinnGrainne
Posts: 103
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SinnerSaved
quote:
ORIGINAL: AoibhinnGrainne
At the very least, we needs must accept that God created the third of Heaven that rebelled against Him. Did He create them flawed? Twisted? Marred in some way? Are we now saying God made a mistake? That something went awry apart from Him???
The bible does not tell us anything about their creation, so I am not going to respond to this taunt, except to say that He gave angels freewill as He did man. Yes, Satan rebelled because of pride and was cast out of heaven with a third of the angels who freely chose to follow his lead.
This is a good discussion...thank you for your thoughts. But I am not taunting you. I am sincerely asking. I am sorry that my delivery looks/reads like a taunt. I don't do that...
For myself, I am unsure about freewill. I have been a 5-point Calvinist/supralapsarian most of my adult life (53 years). But I am re-thinking this position in light of more Scripture study and more prayer. I only ask these series of questions because these came to my mind as I was reading your post/thread and praying about it as I posted.
For me, there is a tension between freely choosing and the sovereign Plan of God...who knows all, and causes all things to happen according to His will and purpose.
Again, the tension between "sovereign" in it's ultimate meaning and "choice" as it works itself out here in space and time... I throw up my hands.
Is evil only the absence of good? Or is it palpable? Is it a person? Does it have personhood/personality? Is evil separate from the Adversary? Or is the Adversary the embodiment of evil? In other words, are we talking about a thing or a person? And if nothing exists apart from God, how can evil, well, be unto itself even if it is defined as that which is not God?
We are told, in Genesis, that God created light. So darkness is the absence of light. Okay... We are told that Jesus is the Light of the World. We are told that all things are created through Him. We are told, in Revelation, that the New Heaven and the New Earth will be illuminated by the Light of Christ.
So...before the Beginning, are we to believe there was no light in the Heavenlies where the Trinity dwelt with the Heavenly host? Because, my understanding of Genesis is that God created light (the greater for day, the lesser for night) to illumine Creation for us and to mark time for us. In a way, the light God created points to the greater Light of the World which is Jesus.
But I digress...
Would evil be similar? Would evil exist not as something not but as something that is?
All I know, right now, is if I take Scripture at exactly what Scripture says, God forms THE light and creates darkness; God makes peace...and creates evil.
There is something to this.
So...how does Scripture define evil???
Aoi.
_____________________________
Be a woman so wrapped up in the Heart of God, that a Man of God has to search the Heart of God to find you...
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RE: The entrance of evil into the universe - 5/7/2008 6:02:16 PM
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SinnerSaved
Posts: 269
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: Belfast, N. Ireland
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AoibhinnGrainne
For me, there is a tension between freely choosing and the sovereign Plan of God...who knows all, and causes all things to happen according to His will and purpose.
Again, the tension between "sovereign" in it's ultimate meaning and "choice" as it works itself out here in space and time... I throw up my hands.
Aoi,
We share the same age and the same dilemma over the tension between God's sovereignty and choice! Both are provable in scripture. I therefore believe both in God's sovereignty and also in freewill and hence the dilemma. However, I truly believe that we are not puppets, just being manipulated by God in a theatre called earth.
We cannot know the answer, because His ways are so much higher than our ways, and I do not think that we can possily comprehend how the two positions co-exist, but I sincerely believe that they do. Maybe we are limiting Him by the limits of our own perceptions. For example, our perception of time is linear, and maybe God's is not. Maybe, rather than causing things to happen (which would deny the existence of freewill), because He is sovereign over time He can see the future result of our freewill decisions as easily as we can see the reults of our past decisions. I know this is not scriptural, but I say it only to try to make some sense of how freewill and God's sovereignty are equally valid. We know from scripture that they are.
_____________________________
"No man is an island, entire of itself...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."
John Donne
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RE: The entrance of evil into the universe - 5/8/2008 2:12:04 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3368
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quote:
Isaiah 45:5-10 ~ I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. 8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. 9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? 10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?
According to this bit of Scripture, GOD created evil. Yet, what does "evil" mean in this context? It is apparent it refers to calamity, disaster, etc., - not sin. For example, we see the same in Amos 3:6.
God did not create sin. He says concerning all His creation that it was "good" which eliminates the possibility of His creating sin. Besides the Hebrew word used in Isaiah is ra which is never translated "sin".
quote:
If you truly believe in a sovereign God, that nothing exists apart from Him, then God created evil as well as good. That can only be in the sense he made man and angels with the capability of sinning. Is anything done apart from His will?....no.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: The entrance of evil into the universe - 5/8/2008 12:33:07 PM
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drmark
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Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
We share the same age and the same dilemma over the tension between God's sovereignty and choice! Both are provable in scripture. I therefore believe both in God's sovereignty and also in freewill and hence the dilemma. However, I truly believe that we are not puppets, just being manipulated by God in a theatre called earth. Wonderful post, Sinnersaved! This reminds me of a concept from a theology book I read last year on the differences in Calvin's, Arminius', and Wesley's perspectives of God. They are Sovereignty, Justice, and Love respectively. I personally favor Wesley's perspective and feel that the "entrance of evil" is a consequence of God's Love to create us in His Image with the ability to choose right and wrong. Otherwise, we would only be holy little robots, incapable of willfully returning God's love to Him.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: The entrance of evil into the universe - 5/8/2008 7:30:24 PM
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pmilst
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Drmark I like the idea of being created in His image even to the point of self will or volition. Since we are willful creatures, must there not be some concept for God to test the loyality of the heart. Are the devil and his demonic spirits used to evaluate which way this freewill will gravitate? Jeremiah says "I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, to give to every man according to his deeds". Job was tempted under the allowance of God even after God had declared him "perfect and upright in heart". Is temptation to evil the 'measuring stick' to evaluate the freewill of mankind and its submission to the Lordship of Christ. We know that one day "every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father".
< Message edited by pmilst -- 5/8/2008 9:29:43 PM >
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RE: The entrance of evil into the universe - 5/8/2008 10:13:23 PM
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drmark
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Seems theologically sound to me, pmilst.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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