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Were my friends too harsh? - 5/6/2008 11:38:46 AM
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RichLP
Posts: 1679
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My very good married friend James, his wife, and other friends were at a barbecue this past weekend. James has 3 lovely children, 2 of whom were there.
As we adults sat on the deck, the children played in the backyard. Giggles, running, pure joy. At that moment I was on my feet on the deck, ready to take photographs of the children as they played.
“Susan,” James’ 7-year-old daughter, was playing with her 3-year-old brother Shane. He had fallen forward, with his belly to the grass. She sat on him once – playfully and with no malicious intent. (Plus, I know Susan to be an extremely innocent and sweet child who would never hurt others). At first Shane laughed.
Susan, excited, sat on Shane’s back again, but this time the impact made Shane’s fact hit the grass. Shane immediately started crying hysterically. Susan stood in fear and surprise. Susan’s and Shane’s mother came over to see what was happening.
Because I was on the deck, a few feet higher, I couldn’t see from my perspective that the second “stomp” had caused Shane’s fact to hit something hard on the grass. Whether a small stone or a branch, it created a half-inch cut at the top of Shane’s nose, right between his eyes. It wasn’t a bad, deep cut, but the sight of blood – and there was very little of it.
Susan’s mother was incensed. She pulled her over and yelled “look at this! Look at what you did to your brother!” Now, Shane is already a very temperamental child (he has a bad temper, is stubborn, and even to his own parents – even to me – he raises his right arm as if to strike when we don’t give him what he wants right away. James has already told me to discipline him if Shane raises his arm to hit me when I babysit him.).
And Shane continued to cry hysterically.
James arrived at the scene a bit afterwards and he pulled Susan’s hand. He is usually even-tempered, but he raised his voice (“You’re going home NOW!”). He jerked Susan’s hand in anger and gave her a “knock” on her head with his knuckle (it was the first time I ever saw him physically punish his daughter). It wasn’t particularly a hard strike, but it was enough to hurt. Susan began to cry immediately.
I felt terrible as I’d seen the whole thing and even told James and his wife that it had been an unfortunate accident. But no matter. James and his wife were angry, Susan was sent home for the rest of the evening (James lives nearby and after dropping her off at home, where Susan’s grandmother watched her for the rest of the day), he returned… still angry.
James and his wife later calmed down, and at one point when Shane was back to normal, but with that cut on his face, Shane was playing with his cousins indoors. James and his wife were inside as well, still very upset.
1. Was James’ wife’s behavior – yelling at Susan to make her see what she had done – excessive or appropriate?
2. Should either James or his wife have pulled the children aside out of view of the others guests before disciplining? Or are there times when action must be taken at once even if others see it?
3. Since Susan had already gotten yelled at by her mother, did James overdo it by “knocking” her head?
I really did feel horrible, even though I am just a family friend.
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Were my friends too harsh? - 5/6/2008 11:49:54 AM
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manda59
Posts: 4882
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
1. Was James’ wife’s behavior – yelling at Susan to make her see what she had done – excessive or appropriate?
Excessive.
quote:
2. Should either James or his wife have pulled the children aside out of view of the others guests before disciplining?
Yes.
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Or are there times when action must be taken at once even if others see it?
I/we have NEVER disciplined our children in the view of others - it was a conscious choice by us, because we didn't want to use humiliation/shame. We have always taken them to one side.
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3.Since Susan had already gotten yelled at by her mother, did James overdo it by “knocking” her head?
Yes. Hitting her head was IMO abusive. If he had wanted to spank her, it should have been done (a) not in anger and (b) on her backside, not her head.
In my opinion, the problem here is that the mother wasn't paying sufficient attention to what the children were doing. The 7yr old appears to have effectively been left alone with the 3 yr old, which makes her responsible for him, and she should not have been. The mother should have been watching the 3 yr old like a hawk, and, had she been doing so, could have stopped this "game" before it ended in tears. IMO she alone is responsible.
I have to say, Rich, I do wonder about these friends of yours sometimes. 
_____________________________
"OK- I just read through the thread, and wanted to ditto Manda."
(Sunnymom, May 2008)
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RE: Were my friends too harsh? - 5/6/2008 12:02:34 PM
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RichLP
Posts: 1679
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Manda,
As always your parenting feedback is reasonable and your experience speaks through your words.
Now, perhaps I am defending my friends – nay, I am – but this considering I hang out with them quite often. They love their children and do their best to take care of the 3 of them (the youngest, a 1 year old, was home that day). I am at their home quite often and my friends do their best to ensure the children behave. I’ve seen James pull aside Shane (to the bathroom for a time out for example) for misbehavior, and I’ve also seen James tell Shane to say “sorry” for hitting Susan. Susan is much older and also taller, but she almost never strikes Shane whereas Shane hits his sister whenever things don’t go his way. This is why James and his wife have authorized babysitters (who are usually James’ unmarried siblings or people like me) to be a bit “tough” with Shane when Shane misbehaves.
Now, let me ask you this. Were either James or his wife really to blame? I arrived at the party a bit late, and by the time I’d arrived, the children had been playing for some time. They’d been running around in the backyard without problems with the 4-year-old boy and 2-year-old girl whose parents were hosting the barbecue (Susan’s and Shane’s cousins). The adults – including the hosts – were sitting at the deck while also busy serving the guests food and drink. In addition, the children occasionally came from the grass to the deck; the adults on occasion grabbed the kids for a few minutes on their laps (including myself).
No one, I don’t think, imagined this would’ve happened. Granted, unfortunate accidents are often unexpected. And ironically, it was I, an adult who just happened to have been standing on the deck watching the children’s play at that moment (when I was ready to take some pictures) that the accident occurred. I perhaps should have told Susan not to sit on Shane, but the first “stomp” had been inconsequential and Susan meant no harm.
I don’t know. But as you have reared children (and quite responsibly, from what I gather of your writings), I am most probably best off deferring to your superior judgment.
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Were my friends too harsh? - 5/6/2008 12:20:03 PM
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manda59
Posts: 4882
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
They love their children and do their best to take care of the 3 of them (the youngest, a 1 year old, was home that day).
They may do their best, but it just depends on whether their "best" is good enough.
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Were either James or his wife really to blame?
If it was me and my husband there, and something had happened between my son and daughter, then I would have considered us responsible for not keeping a closer eye on them, especially with the age gap, especially as they'd been playing already for some time (and tiredness could have come into play). If James and/or his wife had been watching more closely, they would have had a better idea of what had happened - instead of just blaming Susan without even asking what had happened.
quote:
I arrived at the party a bit late, and by the time I’d arrived, the children had been playing for some time. They’d been running around in the backyard without problems with the 4-year-old boy and 2-year-old girl whose parents were hosting the barbecue (Susan’s and Shane’s cousins).
Did any of the adults get up and play with the children at all, or was Susan being left to effectively supervise all three younger ones?
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No one, I don’t think, imagined this would’ve happened. Granted, unfortunate accidents are often unexpected.
Which is precisely why children need to be supervised IMO.
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I perhaps should have told Susan not to sit on Shane, but the first “stomp” had been inconsequential and Susan meant no harm.
Neither Susan or Shane were/are your responsibility. It's a shame that their own parents weren't watching their children as closely as you were.
_____________________________
"OK- I just read through the thread, and wanted to ditto Manda."
(Sunnymom, May 2008)
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RE: Were my friends too harsh? - 5/6/2008 12:28:37 PM
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RichLP
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
They may do their best, but it just depends on whether their "best" is good enough.
Good point.
quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
If it was me and my husband there, and something had happened between my son and daughter, then I would have considered us responsible for not keeping a closer eye on them, especially with the age gap, especially as they'd been playing already for some time (and tiredness could have come into play). If James and/or his wife had been watching more closely, they would have had a better idea of what had happened - instead of just blaming Susan without even asking what had happened.
Yes, they were tired. Before the accident, Susan came to me and sat on my lap. She looked a bit sleepy.
You just said James and his wife blamed Susan – as she had sat on him. Well, later on, James and his wife were commenting that this happens because Susan gets excited and doesn’t control her own strength. Do you think this is a valid point on their part, even if Susan meant no harm at all? (I’m sure they knew Susan meant no harm)
quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
Did any of the adults get up and play with the children at all, or was Susan being left to effectively supervise all three younger ones?
No. From what I remember, I was the only adult who went downstairs from the deck to the grass (literally a 5-second walk) to run after the kids or to play with them. In fact, after that incident, after Susan had left and Shane was inside being calmed down, Susan’s and Shane’s 2-year-old girl cousin was playing alone in the grass with a football-sized round ball. I went to play with her and just to stand closer to her. Shane’s accident didn’t even cross my mind – but for some reason (and not because I love children) I just thought it was better for me, an adult, to be very near her (even though if she tripped and fell and cried, an adult would’ve arrived at the “scene” in seconds).
Before the accident, Shane’s cousins both cried at least once; the 2-year-old girl cried because she tripped and fell – but it wasn’t because of an injury, and rather, startlement. So perhaps the adults had thought that the children might cry even when nothing serious had occurred. Shane’s crying was the major “crying” that night.
quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
Neither Susan or Shane were/are your responsibility. It's a shame that their own parents weren't watching their children as closely as you were.
A sobering point… and I was on the deck directly above them, not on the grass by their side. Had I, or any adult, been right next to them, maybe this would not have happened.
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Were my friends too harsh? - 5/6/2008 1:46:24 PM
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manda59
Posts: 4882
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
Yes, they were tired. Before the accident, Susan came to me and sat on my lap. She looked a bit sleepy.
When children get tired, it's good for the parents to be closely watching and making sure they take breaks, chill and rest.
quote:
You just said James and his wife blamed Susan – as she had sat on him. Well, later on, James and his wife were commenting that this happens because Susan gets excited and doesn’t control her own strength. Do you think this is a valid point on their part, even if Susan meant no harm at all? (I’m sure they knew Susan meant no harm)
She wouldn't have had to control her strength had she been playing with other 7yr olds. If they know she has a problem with knowing her own strength (which is really common when older children are playing with younger children), then they should have supervised the games more closely, or been personally involved with the games once the children became more tired.
Susan does need to learn to gauge her own strength, but she needs to be taught that, and gently, not by being put into situations where she is likely to fail and then be punished for it. I'd say it's fairly normal for older children not to know how to control their own strength. If they are aware she has a problem, they should be watching for when she gets excited, and teaching her how to chill out, instead of expecting her to be able to learn to regulate her behaviour all on her own.
My son is 4 yrs older than his sister; we have often had to explain to him that he may not realise how he is bigger and stronger than his sister, and that he needs to be careful. For that reason, we've always kept an eye on them playing together, and gently alerted him if (a) we could see he needed 'time out' from his sister and (b) we could see things starting to get a little out of hand.
They're 18 and 14 now, and we don't have to do it *quite* so often now 
quote:
A sobering point… and I was on the deck directly above them, not on the grass by their side. Had I, or any adult, been right next to them, maybe this would not have happened.
I am afraid that too often I see adults leaving the children to play by themselves - and then wondering why accidents happen.
_____________________________
"OK- I just read through the thread, and wanted to ditto Manda."
(Sunnymom, May 2008)
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RE: Were my friends too harsh? - 5/6/2008 4:48:51 PM
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pbaribeault
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While what Manda is saying is accurate and very much 'best practice' -- not all of us parents are on our best behaviour and most diligent all the time. Sometimes we react from our own fear and temper, especially at the sight of blood, I can see how the parents may have become reactive to the point of unwise responses.
The real telling point will be if the parents sort out this event as a learning experience and make better choices next time. Parenting is learned mostly by trial and error (except you Rich, who are making a very detailed vicarious study) and this event definitely falls into the error category. However, I think kids are designed to withstand their parents' occasional bouts of stupidity.
Meaning that I think kids can get past occasional events that include unwarranted personal shouting and a few moderate 'knocks' as long as that is not the parenting style that the parents consider to be right and appropriate. Perhaps the parents would consider apologizing as a part of learning from the way this thing got out of hand.
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RE: Were my friends too harsh? - 5/6/2008 9:56:50 PM
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csl7037
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pbaribeault
While what Manda is saying is accurate and very much 'best practice' -- not all of us parents are on our best behaviour and most diligent all the time. Sometimes we react from our own fear and temper, especially at the sight of blood, I can see how the parents may have become reactive to the point of unwise responses.
This is true. One night recently, my son was getting into the car and I said, "don't close the door, Rylie's behind you". Rylie is my friend's 3yo (my son is 7). I know I said it more than once. He wasn't listening (just being 7) and really almost slammed Rylie's hand in the door. I admit I was exhausted and totally stressed out (for whatever reason) and I totally went off on him. It was brief but something to the effect of "if you had just smashed his hand, I'd have yanked you out and spanked you here!" I totally reacted out of fear. And it's easy to do when it involves injury, I think. Since I then had to drive home with my son I was able to explain that I over-reacted because it scared me so bad and how badly his friend could've been hurt and why that's why he needs to listen when I'm telling him something.
So it depends on whether this was a routine reaction or a reaction to the shock and blood and they'd use that to talk to her about being more careful and parents not being perfect.
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RE: Were my friends too harsh? - 5/7/2008 7:45:28 AM
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Sunnymom
Posts: 2805
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pbaribeault
While what Manda is saying is accurate and very much 'best practice' -- not all of us parents are on our best behaviour and most diligent all the time. Sometimes we react from our own fear and temper, especially at the sight of blood, I can see how the parents may have become reactive to the point of unwise responses.
The real telling point will be if the parents sort out this event as a learning experience and make better choices next time. Parenting is learned mostly by trial and error (except you Rich, who are making a very detailed vicarious study) and this event definitely falls into the error category. However, I think kids are designed to withstand their parents' occasional bouts of stupidity.
Meaning that I think kids can get past occasional events that include unwarranted personal shouting and a few moderate 'knocks' as long as that is not the parenting style that the parents consider to be right and appropriate. Perhaps the parents would consider apologizing as a part of learning from the way this thing got out of hand.
Ditto- these sound like young parents, and with three young children, even a 'good' parent can react inappropriately. You can get tired, frustrated, fearful, and embarrassed when your kids act up. If this kind of reaction happened all the time, I'd be concerned. And like pbari said, hopefully they will learn from the experience.
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RE: Were my friends too harsh? - 5/7/2008 1:16:44 PM
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ladyingrace1979
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Now, perhaps I am defending my friends – nay, I am – but this considering I hang out with them quite often. They love their children and do their best to take care of the 3 of them (the youngest, a 1 year old, was home that day). I am at their home quite often and my friends do their best to ensure the children behave. I’ve seen James pull aside Shane (to the bathroom for a time out for example) for misbehavior, and I’ve also seen James tell Shane to say “sorry” for hitting Susan. Susan is much older and also taller, but she almost never strikes Shane whereas Shane hits his sister whenever things don’t go his way. This is why James and his wife have authorized babysitters (who are usually James’ unmarried siblings or people like me) to be a bit “tough” with Shane when Shane misbehaves.
My concern is the difference in the way these children are treated. It seems that Shane is allowed to hit, raise his arm to both children and adults, and the discipline is talking to in private and "say sorry". This is intentional behavior and apperently frequent enough to mention to babysitters. Yet when Susan has an accident, when she is tired, and under supervised because the adults aren't paying attention, she is publicly yelled at, physically hit, and permenently removed from the situation. Seems to me there is a double standard here. Seven is still very young to be expected to "control herself" around younger kids. I don't know if the favoritism is because of gender (it's ok for boys to be agressive, they are boys) or age, but it's still not right. I'm also concerned with disciplining in anger. So in answer to your question yes your friends were way out of line. If you continue to see the favoritism you need to address it with your friends. Punching a child is never discipline, it is abuse.
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RE: Were my friends too harsh? - 5/7/2008 4:08:15 PM
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Row1
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there are a lot of family problems where 2 kids of same parents get treated differently. sometimes because of by/girl, but also because of other things like flat-out favoritism for various reasons.
one kid will get favored or shunned because they were born soon after a family member's death, or because they resemble someone in the family.
these things are really big problems.
if you can bring up the idea that they aren't quite consistent, but should try to be, that might help. sometimes parents aren;'t even aware - these are like unconscious things.
sometimes 'favored' kids end up with big problems as adults, like alcohol problems, because they got away with things as kids and did not learn to fear consequences of their actions. the brothers or sisters can end up really puzzled why the 'favored' child has such problems as an adult when the favored child got everything. this is part of the explanation for those examples.
people may have their own examples of this happening.
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RE: Were my friends too harsh? - 5/7/2008 4:28:37 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2282
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
1. Was James’ wife’s behavior – yelling at Susan to make her see what she had done – excessive or appropriate?
Excessive
quote:
2. Should either James or his wife have pulled the children aside out of view of the others guests before disciplining?
Yes. But I would have firmly but gently told Susan to apologize and to be more careful.
quote:
Or are there times when action must be taken at once even if others see it?
Probably.
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3. Since Susan had already gotten yelled at by her mother, did James overdo it by “knocking” her head?
That is just plain mean and childish as well. What purpose does it serve? That isn't appropriate discipline.
quote:
I really did feel horrible, even though I am just a family friend.
I would also have felt horrible.
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RE: Were my friends too harsh? - 5/7/2008 6:08:33 PM
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Kat_D
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
I really did feel horrible, even though I am just a family friend.
Exactly. You are just a friend, and as a friend, you are on the outside looking in. You don't see what goes on in their home all the time and you are not privy to Susan's behavior on twenty-four hour a day basis. Maybe she has been doing similar things to her brother (which you have not witnessed) and that one was the last straw as far as her parents were concerned. You just don't know.
No one else can really say whether what they did was appropriate or not without having ALL the facts. The only ones that have all the facts are the parents. We can only say what we would have done or not done with the facts you have given us.
I don't want to hurt your feelings, but I find it a bit odd that you take such a keen interest in your friend's parenting practices. This is not the first thread you've had concerning them. Seriously, it's none of your business unless you think they are being truly abusive.
Someday, when you're a parent, you'll understand the enormity of that job and that all parents make mistakes with their kids...and you will probably be more apt to cut them some slack.
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~Kat
I only have Eyes for You, Lord!
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RE: Were my friends too harsh? - 5/7/2008 7:56:33 PM
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manda59
Posts: 4882
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
I don't want to hurt your feelings, but I find it a bit odd that you take such a keen interest in your friend's parenting practices. This is not the first thread you've had concerning them. Seriously, it's none of your business unless you think they are being truly abusive.
The way I see it is that Rich is so very keen to be a husband and a parent that, when it happens, he wants to be sure of what he is doing, and so uses these scenarios to learn about parenting.
_____________________________
"OK- I just read through the thread, and wanted to ditto Manda."
(Sunnymom, May 2008)
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RE: Were my friends too harsh? - 5/7/2008 7:58:33 PM
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manda59
Posts: 4882
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From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
No one else can really say whether what they did was appropriate or not without having ALL the facts.
Personally, I would regard the father's knock on the girl's head with his knuckle to be enough to make what they did inappropriate, even without any of the rest.
_____________________________
"OK- I just read through the thread, and wanted to ditto Manda."
(Sunnymom, May 2008)
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RE: Were my friends too harsh? - 5/7/2008 10:24:43 PM
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W.O.F.
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I completely agree with Manda!
They should not have yelled...and while that is a hard impulse to control...it is possible to control it or at least quiet oneself down.
They should have found out the whole story from anyone who was around...including you.
They should have taken both children aside and spoken to them quietly and, in my opinion, taken both children home if they were going to take any of them home at all. A cut near the eye, even if it seems innocuous, can be quite serious..and should have taken a little more care than simply punishing sister.
IT is NEVER NEVER NEVER (do get that I mean NEVER) appropriate to hit a child in the head EVER...if you spank it must be calmly and without anger and on the behind...but in a case like this where everyone is upset...a time out is much more appropriate...for both the children and the parents!
It comes down to these kids were left unsupervised....regardless of how many laps they sat on, etc. They were unsupervised....and they are lucky that this minor accident is all that happened. Worse things could have.
_____________________________
"It is better to debate
an IMPORTANT matter without settling it
than to settle it without debating it"
~Anonymous~
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RE: Were my friends too harsh? - 5/8/2008 9:58:20 AM
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RichLP
Posts: 1679
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
I don't want to hurt your feelings, but I find it a bit odd that you take such a keen interest in your friend's parenting practices. This is not the first thread you've had concerning them. Seriously, it's none of your business unless you think they are being truly abusive.
If you think this hurts my feelings, it shows you don't know me - which is OK since this is online.
As for "keen interest," it's just my observations as a non-parent. James is an extremely close friend and because he often invites me (and other friends) to his house for dinner, it's hard for me not to bump into his kids. Susan, he said, has taken a liking to me - there are very few other family friends to whom she runs with a smile to embrace when they visit.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
Someday, when you're a parent, you'll understand the enormity of that job and that all parents make mistakes with their kids...and you will probably be more apt to cut them some slack.
Ah, and that's why I am trying to learn NOW by observing before I ever sire a child - as per what Manda59 said.
Seems to me you thought I was judging their parenting when all I was asking for feedback of those who are parents. LOL
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Were my friends too harsh? - 5/8/2008 10:35:42 AM
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pbaribeault
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Beget?
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RE: Were my friends too harsh? - 5/8/2008 10:50:49 AM
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buckifn
Posts: 1961
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quote:
IT is NEVER NEVER NEVER (do get that I mean NEVER) appropriate to hit a child in the head EVER...if you spank it must be calmly and without anger and on the behind...but in a case like this where everyone is upset...a time out is much more appropriate...for both the children and the parents!
I'm glad someone finally pointed that out. Hitting a child in the head is NEVER responsible parenting. That is abuse and many children have died from parent's and babysitters and others thinking it is "ok" to hit a child in the head.
IT IS NEVER OK TO DO THAT.
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RE: Were my friends too harsh? - 5/8/2008 11:07:10 AM
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. We will be perfect parents when we become perfect people without sin natures. (Sorry, but I loathe the world's image of perfectly rational always even tempered adults always in control found especially in women's magazines. They are not the biblical view and they are so discouraging.) 
