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Why does God want a rapist to marry his victim? - 4/13/2008 9:13:47 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
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Deuteronomy 22:28-29, NASB
"If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered, then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl's father fifty {shekels} of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her; he cannot divorce her all his days."
This is a tough passage to process. Comments?
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RE: Why does God want a rapist to marry his victim? - 4/13/2008 9:38:18 PM
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amyk
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In my thinking, probably this poor girl would have no chance to marry anyone else, since they would not consider her a virgin, even though she was apparently raped. So making the rapist marry her and take care of her the rest of her life may have been the only security she could have. (This is just an opinion, and I'm not sure if my ideas about this are really right.)
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RE: Why does God want a rapist to marry his victim? - 4/13/2008 9:45:30 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
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You make a good point.
There are a few instances of rape in the Bible that I'd like to examine that are in relation to this passage:
1. The rape of Dinah, Jacob's daughter, by Shechem (Genesis 34); and
2. The rape of Tamar, David's daughter, by her half-brother Amnon (2 Samuel 13).
Do we see the people involved in these situations trying to follow the commandments of God with respect to the rape of a virgin?
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Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Why does God want a rapist to marry his victim? - 4/13/2008 11:58:49 PM
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fallenstar
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Yes, I have seen this passage before. It was one of the things that "turned me off" to Christianity before I was saved. I do have q question for anybody who can answer it. Why does it matter if a woman is a virgin or not when she is married? Amyk said that the woman who was raped would have no choice to marry anyone else because she is'nt a virgin. I have never ever heard of the same thing applying to men. If men are'nt virgins, can they not marry either? If what I am thinking is right, no offense to anybody, but the Bible is pretty sexist.
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RE: Why does God want a rapist to marry his victim? - 4/14/2008 12:04:43 AM
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iSERVEaJEW
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The Biblical faith is Patriarchal. The Bible is very clear that all His children are highly valued but that men are to be the leaders in the home. Is that somehow wrong?
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Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Why does God want a rapist to marry his victim? - 4/14/2008 6:28:59 AM
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Anasazi_Avatar
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Hi there,
I do believe that the man is the head of the house. But it is a weighty responsibility, and he must learn that sometimes he must let the woman lead. My wife and I live our lives along these lines.
However the law quoted is from the doctrines of the OT as given to the Israelites. These doctrines and laws were fulfilled in Christ and ended on the cross at Golgotha. I believe that if a woman is raped, whether a virgin or not, makes no difference, she does not have to marry the guy. This also works in the reverse. The rapist should be held accountable for what was done. This is referred to by the payment to the girls' father. If a woman is raped and conceives, then she has a choice to make. That of whether to keep the baby or to terminate the pregnancy. Can anyone blame her if she terminates the pregnancy? I for one can not nor would not expect her to keep the baby. If she does, then I pray ALL Gods' blessings on her, for she is very courageous.
Maranatha
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RE: Why does God want a rapist to marry his victim? - 4/14/2008 6:33:52 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
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My understanding of this issue is that it is intended to prevent men from raping virgins. If you do, you have to marry her. Since divorce was greatly frowned upon, the perpetrator would be forced to bear the burden of his lack of self-control. I could be wrong, but that is my understanding of it.quote:
1. The rape of Dinah, Jacob's daughter, by Shechem (Genesis 34) Well... it would be pretty hard for Dinah to marry the dude if he is dead. So I guess they didn't technically violate that law because God hadn't instituted it yet and the guy was killed. Just a thought....quote:
2. The rape of Tamar, David's daughter, by her half-brother Amnon (2 Samuel 13). That would be a definite no... Evidenced by the fact that Tamar lived as a widow for the rest of her life and she complained to her brother "this wickedness is greater than that which you have already done to me." So no, Amnon did not follow the law of God, which would have demanded that he go to the King and marry her. However, God repays Amnon for his sin through Absalom murdering him.
Just a thought
Adam
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RE: Why does God want a rapist to marry his victim? - 4/14/2008 10:39:35 AM
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lw9
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iSERVEaJEW:
In light of another thread where you posted a similar theme, I would like to know how you feel about the following:
Do you believe we should be living under Old Testament law?
Do you believe the penalties for having sex with an underage girl today are too harsh? You stated this in the other thread and I am curious to hear a further explanation from you.
Do you believe the penalties for raping - underage girl or a woman - are too harsh?
Do you believe that underage girls and women who are raped should marry their rapist? This is something you seemed to allude to in the other thread and I would like to hear your views.
Thanks.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 4/14/2008 11:00:12 AM >
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RE: Why does God want a rapist to marry his victim? - 4/14/2008 11:37:22 AM
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Fritzpw_Admin
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RE: Why does God want a rapist to marry his victim? - 4/15/2008 10:42:46 AM
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LoyalGypsy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW
Deuteronomy 22:28-29, NASB
"If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered, then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl's father fifty {shekels} of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her; he cannot divorce her all his days."
This is a tough passage to process. Comments?
Greetings ISAJ!!
This is easy
1b) one completed in the more or less distant past
in the beginning God "created"
8816 Perfect
The Perfect expresses a completed action.
Moses uses this principal over and over
but this principal is first mentioned in action as separating the flesh from the spirit……. as they (Adam and Eve) were found out by God in the beginning,
quote:
This is a tough passage to process. Comments
The moral to the story is not telling the truth and being found out is as much as being in agreement with the lie… and in the acceptance of the lie; in like manner, they are bound for life.
Duet 22 it is seen that neither of them came forward…
and in Like manner below
……….Adam did not take the responsibility of eating of the tree against the commandment,
……….And Eve never told God that she passed it to her husband.
So as Moses reiterates …….this Perfect expresses in a completed action in whole, both in the flesh in Deut 22 ….and she shall become his wife because he has violated her….
As it is was the Spirit ...After Adam violated the women (spiritually), she became his wife and he named her Eve after he ate of the tree.
In a completed action, being bound for life
LG
< Message edited by LoyalGypsy -- 4/15/2008 10:56:03 AM >
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Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Why does God want a rapist to marry his victim? - 4/16/2008 4:33:36 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Anasazi_Avatar
Hi there,
I do believe that the man is the head of the house. But it is a weighty responsibility, and he must learn that sometimes he must let the woman lead. My wife and I live our lives along these lines.
However the law quoted is from the doctrines of the OT as given to the Israelites. These doctrines and laws were fulfilled in Christ and ended on the cross at Golgotha. I believe that if a woman is raped, whether a virgin or not, makes no difference, she does not have to marry the guy. This also works in the reverse. The rapist should be held accountable for what was done. This is referred to by the payment to the girls' father. If a woman is raped and conceives, then she has a choice to make. That of whether to keep the baby or to terminate the pregnancy. Can anyone blame her if she terminates the pregnancy? I for one can not nor would not expect her to keep the baby. If she does, then I pray ALL Gods' blessings on her, for she is very courageous.
Maranatha
There is a place to discuss whether the Tanach(old testiment) applies to day or not, so I will not get into that here. That said, on what do you base your opinions?
I must beg your indulgence here, since it appears we are not clear on the nature of Adonai's community. Please, bear with me.
Presuming that Adonai does expect us to live a Torah lifestyle, what is the point of this mitzvah(good deed). As in posts past, it appears we are taking the negative approach to Adonai's mitzvot. In the community of Adonai, women are held in high regard. As such they are to be protected. A woman is under her father's protection until she marries.
There are blessings that are bestowed on anyone(male or female) who stays a virgin until marrage. Likewise there are curses that follow from not doing so.
Ha Torah does not require a woman(or man) to be a virgin in order to marry, unless she is marrying a Levite. A Levite is required to be a virgin when he first marries unless he is willing to forfeit his right to serve.
Though we like to see romance as important in marrage, I believe, a more important role of marrage is to hold us responsible for our actions. Whenever one has relations there is the risk of disease and pregnancy. Therefore, we have marrage to make sure that parties involved take responsibility for these eventualities Given this social order, what do we do when someone is raped.
The rapist must be held responsible for his actions. He must pay the father so that he can be compensated for the lose of his daughter. He is to marry her without the option of divorce so that he will have to provide for her and any children that might result. This protects her, the children and society, but he is without protection regardless of what happens. She can abuse and neglect him for the rest of his life.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Why does God want a rapist to marry his victim? - 4/16/2008 8:32:55 PM
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LoyalGypsy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
There is a place to discuss whether the Tanach(old testiment) applies to day or not, so I will not get into that here.
LOL, but you just did in your reply,
That Tanach is not in question, that was one of the hardest principals to get away from in the book.... and is a very big part of the NT prophetic unvieling.... everything you offered in retiteration reflected that principal to the tee...LOL!!
Peace...
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Why does God want a rapist to marry his victim? - 4/16/2008 8:50:23 PM
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LoyalGypsy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: Anasazi_Avatar
Hi there,
I do believe that the man is the head of the house. But it is a weighty responsibility, and he must learn that sometimes he must let the woman lead. My wife and I live our lives along these lines.
However the law quoted is from the doctrines of the OT as given to the Israelites. These doctrines and laws were fulfilled in Christ and ended on the cross at Golgotha. I believe that if a woman is raped, whether a virgin or not, makes no difference, she does not have to marry the guy. This also works in the reverse. The rapist should be held accountable for what was done. This is referred to by the payment to the girls' father. If a woman is raped and conceives, then she has a choice to make. That of whether to keep the baby or to terminate the pregnancy. Can anyone blame her if she terminates the pregnancy? I for one can not nor would not expect her to keep the baby. If she does, then I pray ALL Gods' blessings on her, for she is very courageous.
Maranatha
quote:
Ha Torah does not require a woman (or man) to be a virgin in order to marry, unless she is marrying a Levite. A Levite is required to be a virgin when he first marries unless he is willing to forfeit his right to serve.
This has nothing to do with the topic...
quote:
Given this social order, what do we do when someone is raped?
We toss them in Jail, just as God tossed Adam out the garden; the only other option was death.
quote:
This protects her, the children and society, but he is without protection regardless of what happens. She can abuse and neglect him for the rest of his life.
SO ….You mean…. she can commit adultery and get away with it??
I believe your pulling straws on this one, there is not even a witness in the scripture that supports that.
I see a defining pattern here......Prophet India...it that you again???
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Why does God want a rapist to marry his victim? - 4/16/2008 9:54:22 PM
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Ephesians4_32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Anasazi_Avatar
If a woman is raped and conceives, then she has a choice to make. That of whether to keep the baby or to terminate the pregnancy. Can anyone blame her if she terminates the pregnancy? I for one can not nor would not expect her to keep the baby. If she does, then I pray ALL Gods' blessings on her, for she is very courageous.
Maranatha
She shouldn't murder her baby. If she doesn't want the baby, she can put it up for adoption.
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RE: Why does God want a rapist to marry his victim? - 4/17/2008 1:26:53 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
LoyalGypsy:
quote:
This protects her, the children and society, but he is without protection regardless of what happens. She can abuse and neglect him for the rest of his life.
SO ….You mean…. she can commit adultery and get away with it??
I believe your pulling straws on this one, there is not even a witness in the scripture that supports that.
I was not arguing for a Torah lifestyle here. I was merely explaining the Torah lifestyle tro provide context for the passage.
If she commits adultery it is not pleasing to Adonai and she will have to answer to the civil authoraties, but her(rapist) husband can not divorce her even if she commits adultery. That is my understanding of Ha Torah regarding the penalty for rape of a maiden.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Why does God want a rapist to marry his victim? - 4/17/2008 5:24:59 PM
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Anasazi_Avatar
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Hi there,
Before I do reply to your question Bluethread, I have a couple of questions of my own. Your answer my help me to reply more fully for you.
Are you of the Jewish faith? Your answer will help me [I hope] to couch my words better.
What happens to the man and the girl if the man that rapes the girl is outside of the Jewish faith and the two people involved are in another country, [say, Australia, just as an example]?
I am glad you have asked me to clarify my posting.
Maranatha.
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RE: Why does God want a rapist to marry his victim? - 4/17/2008 6:00:56 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Anasazi_Avatar
Hi there,
Before I do reply to your question Bluethread, I have a couple of questions of my own. Your answer my help me to reply more fully for you.
Are you of the Jewish faith? Your answer will help me [I hope] to couch my words better.
What happens to the man and the girl if the man that rapes the girl is outside of the Jewish faith and the two people involved are in another country, [say, Australia, just as an example]?
I am glad you have asked me to clarify my posting.
Maranatha.
I am not hereditarally Jewish, nor have I converted to rabbinic judaism, for what that is worth. I am one who believes that Yeshua(Jesus) and his disciples are rabbis of Ha Tanach(the old testiment). Being new to this site, I would advise you to stay on topic. I do not mind discussing related issues, but the rules are that we are to discuss things under the proper thread.
Your question relates to the age old rabbinic question of how one is to keep Ha Torah(The Word) in the dispora(among the nations). Paul encourages us to, as much as possible, live at peace with those among whom we dwell. The best example of this is Daniel who lived a Torah observant life while not expecting others to. In this case, someone who chooses to afford himself of the blessings of this particular mitzvat(good deed) would take whatever action permitted by Australia that most closely emulates this mitzvah. Given Pesach(Passover) is this weekend, this is why the Seder(Ritual) ends with the prayer that we be in Yerushalem next year. But even the nation of Isreal is not truly a Torah observant society at this time.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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