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RE: Pray for Brandon - 7/21/2008 10:41:37 AM
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Sophie11
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HHV5
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
quote:
ORIGINAL: HHV5
You're missing the point...Our nation doesn't have a history of violence towards educators.
So then are you saying we need to impose a greater punishment based on the past history? I thought it was based on thought process during the moment, not what people did years ago?
Yes.
Because the thought process (ie: racism) that resulted in violence of the past is still alive today in some people.
Oh, I see. So you really do want thought police.
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RE: Pray for Brandon - 7/21/2008 11:05:37 AM
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HHV5
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
quote:
ORIGINAL: HHV5
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
quote:
ORIGINAL: HHV5
You're missing the point...Our nation doesn't have a history of violence towards educators.
So then are you saying we need to impose a greater punishment based on the past history? I thought it was based on thought process during the moment, not what people did years ago?
Yes.
Because the thought process (ie: racism) that resulted in violence of the past is still alive today in some people.
Oh, I see. So you really do want thought police.
Oh, I see. So you really don't think the motive behind a crime has any factor.
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RE: Pray for Brandon - 7/21/2008 11:57:15 AM
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Marcus.
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The problem a lot of Christians have with hate crime laws is that it is subjective. What is a hate crime? Who gets to decide what is and isn't? Why is deviant behavior being pushed so hard to be a part of the protected classes in the areas that it has been enacted in? Already Christians are being targeted for living by the Scriptural passages and taking public stands against homosexuality in Sweden, Canada, and here in the U.S. Christians who won't yield to accepting homosexuality as good but call it a sin are being taken to court over their stand against this evil that is being embraced by so many these days. That is why. How can you tell someone that acting out sexually with others of the same gender will keep them out of heaven and separated from God with laws like these? How can you tell them the gospel message and teach them right and wrong now that society is starting to say what God has called evil and an abomination is being protected by society?
The effect of these hate crime laws protection of homosexuals is to chill religious expression and living. You will pay a heavy price for being true to His Word. Religious liberty is under attack. God's Word is under attack.
There may be good to this too. Those who are social christians but really aren't followers will fall away. People will really have to choose Who they will serve. God or man. Cleaning the Church up may be easier with fewer folks who don't hold to His Word but seek their own way. It will help to separate the sheep from the goats.
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RE: Pray for Brandon - 7/21/2008 12:34:40 PM
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Sophie11
Posts: 750
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HHV5
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
quote:
ORIGINAL: HHV5
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
quote:
ORIGINAL: HHV5
You're missing the point...Our nation doesn't have a history of violence towards educators.
So then are you saying we need to impose a greater punishment based on the past history? I thought it was based on thought process during the moment, not what people did years ago?
Yes.
Because the thought process (ie: racism) that resulted in violence of the past is still alive today in some people.
Oh, I see. So you really do want thought police.
Oh, I see. So you really don't think the motive behind a crime has any factor.
The motive can have a factor, I just tend to think it's a bad idea to actually have a separate charge due to what someone else believes the motive to be, or wants it to be for political reasons. And also I find it strange to have a separate charge that carries more punishment for one person today because of what someone else did 100 years ago.
Call me crazy though.....
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RE: Pray for Brandon - 7/21/2008 3:51:03 PM
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HHV5
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Marcus.
The problem a lot of Christians have with hate crime laws is that it is subjective. What is a hate crime? Who gets to decide what is and isn't? Why is deviant behavior being pushed so hard to be a part of the protected classes in the areas that it has been enacted in? Already Christians are being targeted for living by the Scriptural passages and taking public stands against homosexuality in Sweden, Canada, and here in the U.S. Christians who won't yield to accepting homosexuality as good but call it a sin are being taken to court over their stand against this evil that is being embraced by so many these days. That is why. How can you tell someone that acting out sexually with others of the same gender will keep them out of heaven and separated from God with laws like these? How can you tell them the gospel message and teach them right and wrong now that society is starting to say what God has called evil and an abomination is being protected by society?
The effect of these hate crime laws protection of homosexuals is to chill religious expression and living. You will pay a heavy price for being true to His Word. Religious liberty is under attack. God's Word is under attack.
There may be good to this too. Those who are social christians but really aren't followers will fall away. People will really have to choose Who they will serve. God or man. Cleaning the Church up may be easier with fewer folks who don't hold to His Word but seek their own way. It will help to separate the sheep from the goats.
Ideally, one should be protected by the First Amendment, unless s/he is inciting physical violence.
I don't think hate crime laws should prevent one from speaking his/her mind, as long as s/he isn't promoting violence towards a specific group of people.
But I'm not focusing on speech - I'm focusing on physical violence. Speaking out against homosexuality is different from bashing someone's head with a baseball bat because someone is gay.
"The effect of these hate crime laws protection of homosexuals is to chill religious expression and living."
- Just to reiterate, hate crime laws should only be relevant to physical violence or vandalism of private or public property. If you're not roaming around the streets looking for homosexuals to bash, you should be fine.
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RE: Pray for Brandon - 7/21/2008 3:56:42 PM
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HHV5
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
quote:
ORIGINAL: HHV5
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
quote:
ORIGINAL: HHV5
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
quote:
ORIGINAL: HHV5
You're missing the point...Our nation doesn't have a history of violence towards educators.
So then are you saying we need to impose a greater punishment based on the past history? I thought it was based on thought process during the moment, not what people did years ago?
Yes.
Because the thought process (ie: racism) that resulted in violence of the past is still alive today in some people.
Oh, I see. So you really do want thought police.
Oh, I see. So you really don't think the motive behind a crime has any factor.
The motive can have a factor, I just tend to think it's a bad idea to actually have a separate charge due to what someone else believes the motive to be, or wants it to be for political reasons. And also I find it strange to have a separate charge that carries more punishment for one person today because of what someone else did 100 years ago.
Call me crazy though.....
If the attacker is yelling racial epithets during the attack, it's not an ambiguous situation. Perhaps there were witnesses, or perhaps the attacker is a known member of a racial supremacist group.
History is not compartmentalized into discrete pieces. The racism that was thriving 100 years ago (and frankly, it was still thriving up until the 1960's) is still alive today.
And it wasn't just someONE's action 100 years ago. Because of the widespread racism of the past, the government found it necessary to protect the vulnerable members of society.
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RE: Pray for Brandon - 7/21/2008 3:58:46 PM
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Marcus.
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But these laws have been used to attempt to silence pastors and Christians speaking out in public. There is a court case in Arizona over a publisher refusing to print "gay wedding" announcements. There was the court case in Sweden against a pastor speaking out publicly against homosexuality. I thought I saw another recently. there have been a few in Canada already. Britain has had a case against a magistrate for refusing to perform "gay weddings"; and another is going on over a Christian police officer refusing to participate in a "gay pride" event and speaking out against it using Biblical passages.
There is a large difference between what supporters of hate crime laws including homosexual behavior say they are for and what the homosexual activists are using them for.
Edited for grammar.
< Message edited by Marcus. -- 7/21/2008 4:07:52 PM >
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RE: Pray for Brandon - 7/21/2008 4:14:21 PM
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Sophie11
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HHV5
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
The motive can have a factor, I just tend to think it's a bad idea to actually have a separate charge due to what someone else believes the motive to be, or wants it to be for political reasons. And also I find it strange to have a separate charge that carries more punishment for one person today because of what someone else did 100 years ago.
Call me crazy though.....
If the attacker is yelling racial epithets during the attack, it's not an ambiguous situation. Perhaps there were witnesses, or perhaps the attacker is a known member of a racial supremacist group.
History is not compartmentalized into discrete pieces. The racism that was thriving 100 years ago (and frankly, it was still thriving up until the 1960's) is still alive today.
And it wasn't just someONE's action 100 years ago. Because of the widespread racism of the past, the government found it necessary to protect the vulnerable members of society.
Perhaps I should restate. The motive should be a factor if the motive is race or anything else. Motive is motive. I see no reason to attach harsher punishments to the crime though as if the person is being punished for their thoughts.
BTW, obviously I didn't intend to say it was only one person in history who engaged in racism. I'm pretty sure you already knew that though and were only attempting to be combative.
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RE: Pray for Brandon - 7/21/2008 4:16:40 PM
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HHV5
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Marcus.
But these laws have been used to attempt to silence pastors and Christians speaking out in public. There is a court case in Arizona over a publisher refusing to print "gay wedding" announcements. There was the court case in Sweden against a pastor speaking out publicly against homosexuality. I thought I saw another recently. there have been a few in Canada already. Britain has had a case against a magistrate for refusing to perform "gay weddings"; and another is going on over a Christian police officer refusing to participate in a "gay pride" event and speaking out against it using Biblical passages.
What some folks in favor of these hate crime laws in favor of homosexuals say the laws are for and what they are already being used to do is another thing.
Is sexual orientation now a federally protected status? The last time I checked (which was about a year ago), it wasn't.
It's too bad the laws are being used to stifle free speech. I'm not familiar with laws pertaining to business. Don't all businesses have the right to refuse service to anyone?
I still think the original intent of the hate crime laws is valid.
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RE: Pray for Brandon - 7/21/2008 4:26:36 PM
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Sophie11
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HHV5
I still think the original intent of the hate crime laws is valid.
I think the problem is we've come a long way from original intent. "Hate crime" is being attached to far too many instances nowadays.
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RE: Pray for Brandon - 7/21/2008 4:28:34 PM
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HHV5
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
quote:
ORIGINAL: HHV5
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
The motive can have a factor, I just tend to think it's a bad idea to actually have a separate charge due to what someone else believes the motive to be, or wants it to be for political reasons. And also I find it strange to have a separate charge that carries more punishment for one person today because of what someone else did 100 years ago.
Call me crazy though.....
If the attacker is yelling racial epithets during the attack, it's not an ambiguous situation. Perhaps there were witnesses, or perhaps the attacker is a known member of a racial supremacist group.
History is not compartmentalized into discrete pieces. The racism that was thriving 100 years ago (and frankly, it was still thriving up until the 1960's) is still alive today.
And it wasn't just someONE's action 100 years ago. Because of the widespread racism of the past, the government found it necessary to protect the vulnerable members of society.
Perhaps I should restate. The motive should be a factor if the motive is race or anything else. Motive is motive. I see no reason to attach harsher punishments to the crime though as if the person is being punished for their thoughts.
BTW, obviously I didn't intend to say it was only one person in history who engaged in racism. I'm pretty sure you already knew that though and were only attempting to be combative.
I find it useless to argue with presumptuous people, so I'll just leave with this:
"The intolerable truth is that in these crimes, commonly and
justly referred to as "hate crimes", victims are intentionally selected,
in whole or in part, because of their race, color, national origin,
ancestry, gender, religion, religious practice, age, disability or sexu-
al orientation. Hate crimes do more than threaten the safety and
welfare of all citizens. They inflict on victims incalculable physical
and emotional damage and tear at the very fabric of free society.
Crimes motivated by invidious hatred toward particular groups not only
harm individual victims but send a powerful message of intolerance and
discrimination to all members of the group to which the victim belongs.
Hate crimes can and do intimidate and disrupt entire communities and
vitiate the civility that is essential to healthy democratic processes.
In a democratic society, citizens cannot be required to approve of the
beliefs and practices of others, but must never commit criminal acts on
account of them. Current law does not adequately recognize the harm to
public order and individual safety that hate crimes cause. Therefore,
our laws must be strengthened to provide clear recognition of the gravi-
ty of hate crimes and the compelling importance of preventing their
recurrence." - Hate Crimes Act of 2000 (NY)
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RE: Pray for Brandon - 7/21/2008 4:30:08 PM
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Sophie11
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HHV5
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
BTW, obviously I didn't intend to say it was only one person in history who engaged in racism. I'm pretty sure you already knew that though and were only attempting to be combative.
I find it useless to argue with presumptuous people, so I'll just leave with this:
I was right though, was I not? 
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RE: Pray for Brandon - 7/21/2008 4:45:20 PM
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Marcus.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HHV5
Is sexual orientation now a federally protected status? The last time I checked (which was about a year ago), it wasn't.
It's too bad the laws are being used to stifle free speech. I'm not familiar with laws pertaining to business. Don't all businesses have the right to refuse service to anyone?
I still think the original intent of the hate crime laws is valid.
It isn't yet. Obama supports adding it to the statute however.
The Arizona firm was sued through a human rights commission. The owners are suing the human rights commission for civil rights violation of their 1st Amendment rights for religious expression.
The fear of many believers is that those holding to Biblical doctrines such as these will be not only marginalized but criminalized. That the courts will say that the doctrine/teaching amounts to a hate crime and endorses violence. Thus the religious freedom issue will be negated. That is the wording of the Colorado law, SB200 according to some Christian attorneys reviewing the statute.
Edited for grammar.
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RE: Pray for Brandon - 7/21/2008 6:02:51 PM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Marcus.
Thus the religious freedom issue will be negated. That is the wording of the Colorado law, SB200 according to some Christian attorneys reviewing the statute.
The operative word being some.
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RE: Pray for Brandon - 7/21/2008 6:14:30 PM
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Marcus.
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Considering some of the suits that have been brought against Christians I wouldn't be surprised to see lawsuits seeking to silence public opposition against homosexuality altogether or shutting down groups that help folks leave it.
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RE: Pray for Brandon - 7/21/2008 8:31:19 PM
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Shrommer
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http://ransomed.us/wordpress/2008/01/14/pro-choice/
Above is a good article about how Christians can allow things like hatred and homosexual acts to be legal, even though they are against God's will.
You could also search for it using key words:
grace notes the pro-choice evangelical
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RE: Pray for Brandon - 7/21/2008 10:44:07 PM
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Marcus.
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Then why make anything illegal?
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RE: Pray for Brandon - 7/22/2008 4:00:30 AM
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henny
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
Perhaps I should restate. The motive should be a factor if the motive is race or anything else. Motive is motive. I see no reason to attach harsher punishments to the crime though as if the person is being punished for their thoughts.
Again it's not just motive or thoughts, but motive plus effect of the crime. Hate crimes have harsher penalties because the damage they do is much greater and their effects are meant to extend beyond the immediate victims -in the same way that the degree of punishment is usually determined by the effects of the crimes. One's thoughts and beliefs are really irrelevant. They only play a role in as much as they would tie into the motive of the crime (so if, for example, a completely racist white guy held up a black person for money, this still wouldn't be a hate crime as his racism played no part in the motive and intended effect of the crime. If, however, he systematically targets blacks merely to send a greater message of fear in their community as a whole, then it would be).
I completely agree with you that it wouldn't be good if hate crime legislation is used in every case of interracial crime, no matter what the crime is (although, it isn't). But I see the rationale behind them, and I also think a lot of the opposition to them is just so much hype and hysteria which is built up because people misunderstand them.
quote:
The motive can have a factor, I just tend to think it's a bad idea to actually have a separate charge due to what someone else believes the motive to be, or wants it to be for political reasons.
Which is just the thing. For crimes to be prosecuted as hate crimes, what other people believe the motive to be is really irrelevant. Like any crime, the prosecutors have to prove to a jury, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the motives of the perpetrator as well as the effects of the crime do in fact fit the definition of "hate crime."
As I said before, this is usually hard to do unless the crime itself is very blatant. Which is why in most states people actually being convicted of hate crimes is pretty rare (California, one of the more liberal states in terms of hate crimes laws and legislation, had only 137 convictions in the year 2005. That's really not that many when you consider how large the state is and what a high level of criminal activity it has).
quote:
The effect of these hate crime laws protection of homosexuals is to chill religious expression and living. You will pay a heavy price for being true to His Word. Religious liberty is under attack. God's Word is under attack.
Hate crime laws will not stifle expression. Unless your preferred method of expression is violence, you're free to speak out against homosexuality all you want.
If hate crime laws ever made mere expression devoid of criminal component a crime, believe me, I would oppose them just as vehemently as anyone (I'm always the first, and often the only person, to defend the Phelps crew's right to protest when ever the topic comes up, and I'd equally defend less extreme forms of speech).
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RE: Pray for Brandon - 7/22/2008 4:13:15 AM
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Marcus.
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There have been a few cases already targeting pastors for publicly speaking out against homosexuality and a couple of others for refusing to allow a "gay wedding" and the other was making "gay wedding" announcements. No violence involved.
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 7/22/2008 12:07:58 PM
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bettymackII
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A shocking topic that real Christians must address since it is spreading worldwide! Along these lines is a forthright article on Google and other engines entitled "God to Same-Sexers: Hurry Up" which has been produced by an evangelical ministry seeking to reach homosexuals for Christ. It is unique in that it uses a sort of reverse psychology to get the you-know-who folks to think seriously about their lifestyle and what it leads to! Since the predicted endtime resurgence of the same perversion is worldwide, true Christians around the world should consider reprinting the same non-copyrighted article on their own sites. My prayer is that everyone will not view the above article as a "hate" one but as one of real love - which it truly is!
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 7/22/2008 12:25:50 PM
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Marcus.
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I don't see what is so shocking. It's been right there from the day it was passed on to humanity. I find it shocking that Christians don't realize that it is God's rebuke for our society pushing Him away from the public portion of our lives.
< Message edited by Marcus. -- 7/22/2008 1:05:41 PM >
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 7/22/2008 1:07:32 PM
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jazzact13
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Dems showing true colors on Proposition 8?
quote:
The Democratic National Committee (DNC) contributed $25,000 on February 28 to Equality for All for the purpose of opposing the proposed California marriage protection amendment known as Proposition 8. Equality for All is a homosexual group that pledges to defeat Prop 8 "one voter at a time." According to the group, "a loss in November will dramatically slow, if not halt, progress toward full equality for LGBT Americans."
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 7/22/2008 1:10:31 PM
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HHV5
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jazzact13
Dems showing true colors on Proposition 8?
quote:
The Democratic National Committee (DNC) contributed $25,000 on February 28 to Equality for All for the purpose of opposing the proposed California marriage protection amendment known as Proposition 8. Equality for All is a homosexual group that pledges to defeat Prop 8 "one voter at a time." According to the group, "a loss in November will dramatically slow, if not halt, progress toward full equality for LGBT Americans."
What do you mean "true colors"? They've been pro-gay marriage.
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 7/22/2008 1:11:06 PM
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Marcus.
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Christian theologian speaks out on homosexuality
- OneNewsNow - 7/22/2008 12:00:00 PM
VANCOUVER - Dr. James Innell Packer, a noted Canadian theologian, author and a Board of Governors Professor of Theology at Regent College in Vancouver, as well as an executive editor of Christianity Today, recently addressed the contentious problem of homosexuality and same-sex unions in the Anglican church. The Anglican Church has come to a cross-roads because of the issue of same-sex "marriage," with a massive split in the Global Communion looking increasingly inevitable.
Dr. Packer opened his remarks with a statement explaining why this issue is of such great importance in the Anglican Church today. "In brief," he said, "because it involves the denial of something that's integral to the Christian Gospel.
Story Continues
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