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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/3/2008 11:32:17 AM
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WildByNature
Posts: 460
Joined: 3/17/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
A soul who has followed Mohammed and practiced the Muslim faith his or her entire life may be saved. If, before they die, God leads them to profess Christ as Savior and to have faith and hope (and presumably having practiced charity), then - they are saved.
They may be saved if they accept Christ as their Lord and Savior, yes. Such a profession must be led by faith and be based in hope or the profession is only words. However, please provide the scripture to show that one must have practiced charity in order to be saved.
Additionally, although you may personally believe this person may be saved under these conditions, the RCC does not. According to the RCC, this person must also undergo a valid baptism -- of water by the water regenerating them; of desire by declaring an intent to convert to Catholicism; or, of blood by giving their life in defense of the Catholic faith. Without a valid baptism, the RCC does not consider them an exception to being saved outside the Catholic faith.
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We cannot know what God has in store for anyone, so we are not allowed to presume the state of the soul.
Catholics may not be allowed to presume they will be saved, but Christians can. In fact, that is what "hope" is = confident expectation. We cannot presume one will end up in hell because they may yet believe -- God is longsuffering and so we must be. But, we CAN presume those who are believing will be saved as we know that God has promised salvation to those who are believing. Please provide the scripture to show that we are forbidden to "presume" we are saved if we are believing.
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This, however, would hardly be the "normative" path by which someone who desires Salvation might actively seek it, or be instructed to seek it.
The "normative" path? As opposed to an "un-normative" path? Please provide the scripture to show that there is more than one path that leads to salvation.
There is only ONE path to salvation -- that is through faith in Christ, not through the RCC. Since no one is born "saved", we all travel down different roads until we take the exit that puts us on the right path. The RCC is not the "normative" path that leads to faith in Christ through which we are saved. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Please provide the scripture to show that the "normative" path to salvation is through the teachings of the RCC and not through faith in Christ.
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Jesus has left us with a clear normative path to Salvation - as deposited with Apostles and redacted for our benefit and instruction in Scriptures. If we have the means and are in a situation where this normative path is available to us, we are asked to take it, and to use its help and benefits to assist us.
Jesus left us with His gospel message which He said would be preached in all the world (Matt 24:14). When one has heard the gospel message, they have the "means" of salvation available to them, and it is their choice to accept it or not. Please provide the scripture to show that we are asked to take, use and benefit from the RCC, instead of His gospel, as the "means" of the "normative path" to salvation.
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We are not asked to look down that normative path, and rebel or practice self-definition or instruction when it comes to this information.
Again, the ONLY path to salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ. We are not asked to rebel against His faith, but we are asked to be good Bereans and search the scripture to see if what the "apostle" said is in line with scripture. If the information is not in line with sound doctrine found in the scriptures, we are told to separate ourselves from such a one and his false gospel. However, please provide the scripture to show that we should not test the teachings of the RCC to see if they line up with the sound doctrine found in His word; and, if found false, that we should not separate ourselves from such false teachings.
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If one continues to perpetuate mythology in the light correction, then one is...put any label you care to on it.
... Catholic. 
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You may disagree and have opinions about what the Church teaches - your experience with these teachings is limited to whatever time you may have spent in the Church, plus whatever time it took you to mis-appropriate the catechism.
More importantly, my experience with the Word of God is not limited. For those who have been given eyes to see, its not hard to identify the errors of the teachings of the Catholic Church.
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Have you completed RCIA?
The Roman Catholic Indoctrinal Ambush? No. I had already been indoctrinated by the WOG, so I already had a "rite" to be a Christian.
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Have you attended Mass?
I have been in attendance during Mass, but I have not attended Mass. I received Christ by faith and became born again -- He now resides in me spiritually. I do not need to "preserve" His presence in me physically by eating a wafer and drinking some juice on a regular basis. When I take communion, I am remembering what He did for me -- *hint* the cross is empty. I do not take communion to perpetuate His death -- *hint* He is alive.
Though I have yet to understand the twisted interpretation of how the Mass is you offering yourself as a living sacrifice by suppossedly ingesting His flesh and blood, I DO understand that offering myself as a living sacrifice is not done in a pagan, ritual ceremony. I offer myself to Him as a living sacrifice every morning by dying to my fleshly nature and allowing His Spirit to control my life.
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Are you Baptized (Triune Baptism - doesn't matter where)?
I am baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, yes. Though it is not a valid baptism for salvation according to the requirements of the RCC, it is valid as the ONE baptism required for salvation according to the WOG.
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If you do not accept the teachings, instruction and authority of the Roman Catholic Church to formulate your faith and define your walk, then you ARE sepearted from her. But - that is your choice, not the Church's. The Church is merely affirming the state in which you have placed yourself by your choice of beliefs. This is a state in which you are clearly comfortable to reside, and to that there is nothing to be said, except - you are where you are.
I understand that and am thankful that by the Grace of God I am separated from the RCC. The question, which you have failed to address, is by being separated, does the RCC believe I cannot be saved without "coming home" to "her" -- and, the answer is YES.
If, in fact, you say the answer is "no", then you are not accepting the teachings, instruction and authority of the RCC to formulate your faith and define your walk, so then YOU are separated from her, as well. But, as you said -- that is YOUR choice, not the Church's. This is a state in which you are clearly comfortable to reside, and to that there is nothing to be said, except - you are where you are.
_____________________________
"Stop being afraid! Just keep on believing." (Mark 5:36 ISV)
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/3/2008 11:37:13 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 838
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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Luther didn't just look to scripture for the truth and authority, he wrote scripture by his authority to fit what he saw as the truth. To further the point being made about authority:
Originally, you had Apostles being deputized by Jesus - and duly charged with the mission of "Church"; to define, defend and spread the faith. These Apostles deputized their followers and charged with the same. And so - there is a succession of authority in that those deemed properly prepared and able were charged with the task.
Now comes the 16th century. A single soul emerges who decrees "self" to be the authority as a reaction to disagreement with the established authority ("authority" doesn't make one right, but it makes one "authorized"). In this decree, all things were then possible - an abandonment of the succession of knowledge, instruction and a connection to the past, and a notion that "whatever I wish goes" - an anarchy against faith.
This state of anarchy is how many in Christendom view some of the rest. There is no surrendering to faith, or disciplining one's self to it. Whatever we want faith to be is the rule, and if we don't like something, we just do whatever we want. We can always find some who loosley agreee with us, and from these loose collections of rogues like oursleves, we may then form congregations to continue to do whatever we want, and whatever we define to be Scripturally instructed faith.
This is not what is intended (I believe) within the pages of Scripture. We are not to define faith ourselves, but surrender to the faith instructed by the Apostles - the Church. If we don't like it, I suppose we may vote with our feet and leave, but we are not authorized to just go and start up something we can agree with. In doing so, we may create something that is chalk full of heretical error or be incomplete in some way. Why would we compromise this way?
Any sort of analysis of Scripture attempting to justify our rebellion is simply rationalization.
There are some who view the self-bestowed authority taken on by some within Christendom as the very equivalent to Joseph Smith penning the Book of Mormon. Here is a guy who had a vision, wrote about it, and called it "Scripture" - by his own self-appointment. We all know how many here feel about the credibility of that move. That is exactly how some view the Reformation - the self-proclaimation of innovative faith with no basis or no historical lineage to back up that self-proclaimed authority.
Before this gets accused of being "out of scope" wqith respect to the subject of this thread - the instruction for Salvation, if it is desired, is available to all. Some just have to get out of their own way to seek it.
_____________________________
"Stop judging and you will not be judged. Stop condemning and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven. Give and gifts will be given to you;...For the measure with which you measure will in return be measured out to you."
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/3/2008 11:39:12 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 838
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
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However, please provide the scripture to show that one must have practiced charity in order to be saved. You shall love God with your whole being, and your neighbor as yourself...
Two questions - is this Scriptural? Is it merely a guidleine, or is it instruction?
The wording of it in my Bible seems awfully imperitive, as opposed to suggestive...
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Please provide the scripture to show that we are forbidden to "presume" we are saved if we are believing. Is it not true that Paul was "working out Salvation, in fear and trembling.." If Paul was not certain that he was saved, what assurance should yo have that you are?
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Please provide the scripture to show that there is more than one path that leads to salvation. There is no other path. You speak from a presumption that the Roman Catholic path is erroneous or incomplete, yet you have no authority to back up your claim. Any challenge you have to the error is "because I said so from my reading of my Bible". So - who in the world are you, and why should I believe your reading over the instruction of the Magisterium? This is not a tautology - there is a way to challenge the authority of the Roman Catholic Church with a degree of validity and authority. All you have to do is look to the Eastern Orthodox Chrurch for this lesson and example. Within her you find histroical authority and Apostolic ties, without the "because I said so" mentality.
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Please provide the scripture to show that the "normative" path to salvation is through the teachings of the RCC and not through faith in Christ. I believe within this statement, the burden of proof is on you to establish that there is a difference between the teachings of the RCC and "faith in Christ". They are one in the same. There is nothing instructed by the RCC that is not of Apostolic origin and instruction.
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Please provide the scripture to show that we are asked to take, use and benefit from the RCC, instead of His gospel, as the "means" of the "normative path" to salvation. Again - show a difference. We are asked through 27 books of the NT to live a faith that is not simply instructed on a 5 x 7 recipe card, but in a collection of Books penned for our use in this pursuit.
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please provide the scripture to show that we should not test the teachings of the RCC to see if they line up with the sound doctrine found in His word; and, if found false, that we should not separate ourselves from such false teachings. It would be easier to simply say that most in the Body are not prepared to perform this analysis as such, and to presume this level of authority - to sever the Apostolic connection to faith - is anarchy.
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... Catholic. Yup...walked right into that one...
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For those who have been given eyes to see, its not hard to identify the errors of the teachings of the Catholic Church. SO, you are a Gnostic...? Or are promoting Gnosticism as a way to the truth?
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The Roman Catholic Indoctrinal Ambush? No. I had already been indoctrinated by the WOG, so I already had a "rite" to be a Christian. This kind of like claiming to hate peas when one has never tried peas before, isn't it? How do you know your indoctrination is correct? What was the authority of your teacher? Latter Day Saints are indoctrinated too.
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I do not take communion to perpetuate His death -- *hint* He is alive. Attendence at RCIA would clear this erroneous understanding of the Eucharist right up for you...
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I offer myself to Him as a living sacrifice every morning by dying to my fleshly nature and allowing His Spirit to control my life. So do I. And one of the things asked of us is to partcipate in the Sacraments, including the Eucharistic meal, as an outward sign of the inward grace conveyed by this participation. Perhaps you and I have a different definition of "grace" and "spirit".
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Though it is not a valid baptism for salvation according to the requirements of the RCC Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit - with plain water - that's a Triune Baptism. Sounds like you are good to go...
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I understand that and am thankful that by the Grace of God I am separated from the RCC. The question, which you have failed to address, is by being separated, does the RCC believe I cannot be saved without "coming home" to "her" -- and, the answer is YES. If you are aware of the teachings of the RCC, in its fullness and completeness, and choose to reject those teachings - and forge ahead on your own - then yes, that is a place you have chosen to put yourself. If, however, you have been poorly taught by those who are ignorant of the RCC and you carry around in your head these myths and falsehoods, and these myths and falsehoods keep you from enjoying the fullness fiath availably from the RCC, then you cannot be held responsible for the error of your teachers. But - that's a fine line to tread, isn't it?
If you have had a Triune Baptism and carry an NT with 27 Books in it - you are not as far away from the RCC as you might think you are. While not in full communion, you are hardly what I would call "seperated" as such.
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 4/3/2008 12:12:16 PM >
_____________________________
"Stop judging and you will not be judged. Stop condemning and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven. Give and gifts will be given to you;...For the measure with which you measure will in return be measured out to you."
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/3/2008 1:32:18 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 1989
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WildByNature
quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
A soul who has followed Mohammed and practiced the Muslim faith his or her entire life may be saved. If, before they die, God leads them to profess Christ as Savior and to have faith and hope (and presumably having practiced charity), then - they are saved.
They may be saved if they accept Christ as their Lord and Savior, yes. Such a profession must be led by faith and be based in hope or the profession is only words. However, please provide the scripture to show that one must have practiced charity in order to be saved.
Additionally, although you may personally believe this person may be saved under these conditions, the RCC does not. According to the RCC, this person must also undergo a valid baptism -- of water by the water regenerating them; of desire by declaring an intent to convert to Catholicism; or, of blood by giving their life in defense of the Catholic faith. Without a valid baptism, the RCC does not consider them an exception to being saved outside the Catholic faith.
Nice replies WBN !
You have encountered improvisational Catholicism !
Or the welling meaning Doghouse perhaps misspoke.
There is NO other name under Heaven by which men
can be saved.......except The Name of Jesus Christ !!!
Works, law, rituals do not cause inheritance in God's
Kingdom, neither can they maintain our salvation.
The RCC believes to be saved-you must be RC.
The documents have been posted ENDLESSLY !
_____________________________
"WHOSOEVER"are the elect-
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/3/2008 5:22:54 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 838
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
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The great thing is that we compare the teachings of the pastorate with what is written in scripture as did the Bereans. Everybody says this as if the Catholic teachings don't stand up to to Scripture. They do. What we discuss here are differences in interpretation. Which beckons to the authority of who is doing the discernment and interpreting here.
It should be obvioous that I have a lot of problem with "self" discernment. Often, what we take from Scriptures is the same thing that we were taught to take by our teachers. This begs the question - what is their authority?
You can cite me "Holy Spirit" and "Scriptural" authority all you want. The fact that a Baptist and a Methodist can sit down with the same English translation of Scriptures and wring two different interpretations out of it - citing the very same "Scriptural" authority or "Holy Spirit" guidance, is all the evidence that need be cited to suggest that some of these folks claiming to interpret by the power of the Holy Spirit are simply delusional.
Maybe the Holy Spirit led the Catholic Church to develop its Catechism and maybe that was the means by which Catholics for the most part have at least a common understanding of the meaning of the parables and other Bibilical stories that shape our faith. If you take an Italian Catholic, an American Catholic and a French Catholic, and query them on most facets of faith, you will get consistent answers. You can argue with the interpretation, but you would have trouble with the results it produces in terms of consistency.
Its a lot more than can be said of other facets of Christianity.
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The majority of denominational schism is based on non-salvic issues Then these shouldn't divide. There shouldn't be Lutherans and Pentecostals. Something discriminates these two groups, otherwise they wouldn't be two groups.
_____________________________
"Stop judging and you will not be judged. Stop condemning and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven. Give and gifts will be given to you;...For the measure with which you measure will in return be measured out to you."
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/4/2008 8:36:53 AM
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WesP
Posts: 1761
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
Status: offline
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Everybody says this as if the Catholic teachings don't stand up to to Scripture. They do.
We disagree.
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What we discuss here are differences in interpretation. Which beckons to the authority of who is doing the discernment and interpreting here.
True, but since we do not believe in Apostolic Succession, then in our eyes you have no more authority than us. KWIM? 
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The fact that a Baptist and a Methodist can sit down with the same English translation of Scriptures and wring two different interpretations out of it - citing the very same "Scriptural" authority or "Holy Spirit" guidance, is all the evidence that need be cited to suggest that some of these folks claiming to interpret by the power of the Holy Spirit are simply delusional.
True, but the same can be said of the RCC from our perspective.
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If you take an Italian Catholic, an American Catholic and a French Catholic, and query them on most facets of faith, you will get consistent answers. You can argue with the interpretation, but you would have trouble with the results it produces in terms of consistency.
OK. Let's look at other large denominations, shall we? I will even venture to use non-Christians, but only to emphasize my point. The major churches of Lutherans, UPC, Episcopalians, etc. can be said to deliver consistent responses to doctrine. Shiites, Sunnis, Mormons, etc. ---> same. The number of people who believe a thing does not equate to truth.
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Then these shouldn't divide. There shouldn't be Lutherans and Pentecostals. Something discriminates these two groups, otherwise they wouldn't be two groups.
True, but there are some who view immersion vs. sprinkling as salvic, eschatological perspective as salvic, etc., and this should not be.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
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<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them!
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/4/2008 11:26:45 AM
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WildByNature
Posts: 460
Joined: 3/17/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
However, please provide the scripture to show that one must have practiced charity in order to be saved. You shall love God with your whole being, and your neighbor as yourself...
Two questions - is this Scriptural? Is it merely a guidleine, or is it instruction?
OK, you obviously want to play.
Is loving God and your neighbor as yourself scriptural? Yes. Is it a commandment? Yes.
Two questions - are we saved by following the Ten Commandments? If we break one of the Ten Commandments, can we still be saved?
Now, getting back to the 'presumed practice of charity' as a necessity for salvation in the context of the discussion, you said:
"If, before they die, God leads them to profess Christ as Savior and to have faith and hope (and presumably having practiced charity), then - they are saved."
Therefore, loving God and neighbor does not meet the scriptural proof of "presumed practice of charity". If God led this person to profess Christ as Savior, they would have had to love the Lord before God led them to do this.
1Cor 12:3, " Therefore, I want you to know that no one who is speaking by God's Spirit can say, "Jesus is cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit."
If they didn't love God before making such a profession, then they would be simply be saying mere words -- and we know just saying words doesn't save us, so we know that is not what you meant by "presumably having practiced charity".
1John 4:20, "Whoever says, "I love God," but hates his brother is a liar. The one who does not love the brother whom he has seen cannot love a God whom he has not seen.
Because we love God, we love our neighbor -- because God loves our neighbor. If we don't love our neighbor, then we don't really love God -- and we know if we don't love God He won't save us, so we know that is not what you meant by "presumably having practiced charity".
Furthermore, as to loving God and neighbor ...
Rom 13:9, "for, `Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false testimony, Thou shalt not covet;' and if there is any other command, in this word it is summed up, in this: `Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself;'"
Apparently, when Jesus said to love your neighbor, He was summing up these commandments. You wouldn't do things like these to your neighbor if you loved him.
So what is it then to 'presumably have practiced charity'?
Would Mother Theresa 'presume' she had 'practiced charity' simply by loving God and keeping these commandments -- without doing all those 'good deeds'? It doesn't appear that you and Mother Theresa have the same idea of "practicing charity". So who do I rely upon to properly express the RCC's view of a 'presumed practice of charity' necessary for salvation -- you or Mother Theresa?
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Please provide the scripture to show that we are forbidden to "presume" we are saved if we are believing. Is it not true that Paul was "working out Salvation, in fear and trembling.." If Paul was not certain that he was saved, what assurance should yo have that you are?
Phil 2:12 is the scripture you are offering to defend the statement that those who are believing are "not allowed" to "presume" we will be saved? Sorry, that verse does not say we are forbidden to presume we are saved if we are believing. Nor does it say Paul wasn't certain if he was saved.
Two questions - Does God promise that those who are believing in Christ will be saved? Does God keep His promises?
Tit 1:1-2, "From Paul, a servant of God, and yet an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God's elect and the full knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness, which is based on the hope [confident expectation] of eternal life that God, who cannot lie, promised before the world began."
Does this sound like Paul wasn't certain that if he was believing he would be saved?
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Please provide the scripture to show that there is more than one path that leads to salvation. There is no other path.
So you repeatedly say that the RCC is the "normative path" to salvation, which implies that there are other paths that lead to salvation, expecting us to buy into this misrepresentation of salvation outside the Catholic church -- Yet you admit there is "no other path". In actuality, you are admitting the RCC is the ONLY path to salvation and there is no salvation outside the RCC.
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Please provide the scripture to show that the "normative" path to salvation is through the teachings of the RCC and not through faith in Christ. I believe within this statement, the burden of proof is on you to establish that there is a difference between the teachings of the RCC and "faith in Christ". They are one in the same. There is nothing instructed by the RCC that is not of Apostolic origin and instruction.
Obviously, if they were one in the same, you wouldn't have asserted that the RCC is the "normative" path to salvation as opposed to the path I'm on through "faith in Christ".
I have only been arguing that there is no salvation outside the RCC. Therefore, the burden of proof is on YOU as you have made a claim and must present your case. Go ahead. Present your case -- that the teachings of the RCC are equivalent to "faith in Christ" as opposed to "faith in the RCC" for salvation, and that there is nothing instructed by the RCC that is not of Biblical Apostolic origin and instruction.
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Please provide the scripture to show that we are asked to take, use and benefit from the RCC, instead of His gospel, as the "means" of the "normative path" to salvation. Again - show a difference. We are asked through 27 books of the NT to live a faith that is not simply instructed on a 5 x 7 recipe card, but in a collection of Books penned for our use in this pursuit.
It's not my fault the RCC places so many extra-biblical do's and don'ts on their followers that they can't define how to live in faith on a 5x7 index card and need to add a collection of books to the NT. Basically, you're saying you can't provide the scripture. That's fine. But, if you claim that the teachings of the RCC are identical to the teachings of His gospel found in the NT, then you must prove it instead of being so vague.
I'll help you get started ... Show me where in the NT we are told to venerate Mary. Show me where in the NT we are told to confess our sins to a priest. Show me where in the NT we are told to chant the rosary. Show me where in the NT we are told that if we say a certain number of hail marys our sins are forgiven. Show me where in the NT we are told to make, bow down to and worship graven images. Show me where in the NT it says men should worship with their heads covered as your church leaders do. Show me where in the NT we are told that there is an office of "pope". That's a start anyway.
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please provide the scripture to show that we should not test the teachings of the RCC to see if they line up with the sound doctrine found in His word; and, if found false, that we should not separate ourselves from such false teachings. It would be easier to simply say that most in the Body are not prepared to perform this analysis as such, and to presume this level of authority - to sever the Apostolic connection to faith - is anarchy.
No, it would be easier if you just answered my question. However, I would agree that most in the RCC are not prepared to discern false teachings. But, please provide the scripture to back up your claim that "most" Christians cannot understand the Word God Himself gave them. Such a claim is an insult to God.
As to "authority", I presume no level of authority other than that given to me (and all men who are believing) by God -- to be able to understand His word as He wrote it without the necessity of a man in a robe claiming He alone has the right to disclose a separate interpretation of the Word God spoke and gave to us. Please provide the scripture to show that the authority to discern false teachings is only given to the pope.
As to severing the "Apostolic connection to faith", since I have the teachings of the Apostles in writing -- through which my faith comes -- I have not severed anything but the need for a man in a robe (who DOES assume too much authority) to tell me what he believes the Apostles meant and to add extra-biblical traditions which weren't included in the original writings. Please provide the scripture to show that only the pope has a connection to faith and its only available to us through him.
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For those who have been given eyes to see, its not hard to identify the errors of the teachings of the Catholic Church. SO, you are a Gnostic...? Or are promoting Gnosticism as a way to the truth?
Oh, please.  Can we get past these childish strawmen and stick to the subject? I have never claimed one needs any hidden knowledge. If you do not believe God gives those who are believing eyes to see, then you have not read your bible and don't have eyes to see. In Rev 3:18 Jesus advises those who have fallen into apostasy to smear their eyes with salve so that they might see the truth and the error of their ways, and repent. You'd do well to take heed of His warning since you consider His advise Gnostic.
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How do you know your indoctrination is correct? What was the authority of your teacher?
You are claiming I have no right to be a Christian because instead of allowing myself to be indoctrinated into the teachings of the RCC, I allowed myself to be indoctrinated into the teachings of Christ by the HS? The WOG revealed to me that I was a sinner in need of the Savior. I repented and accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior, was born-again and allow the Spirit to lead me down the path of righteousness toward eternal salvation. That is the correct indoctrination which gives me a right to be a Christian according to scripture. The RCC may believe there is more to it -- steps to take, rituals to perform or cults to join -- but that is their error.
Since my indoctrination was based upon the WOG and not a pope, priest, or any other man -- I call no man teacher. Christ is my teacher. I'm sorry that is not authority enough for you.
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Though it is not a valid baptism for salvation according to the requirements of the RCC Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit - with plain water - that's a Triune Baptism. Sounds like you are good to go...
You chopped up my post and presume too much. I never said anything about "plain water" nor did I say it was regenerative. You'd better check with your priest. The means and intent of my baptism are defective according to the RCC -- but NOT according to God.
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If you are aware of the teachings of the RCC, in its fullness and completeness, and choose to reject those teachings - and forge ahead on your own - then yes, that is a place you have chosen to put yourself.
Can a heretic be saved? Yes, by "coming home" to the RCC. Why can't you just admit that there is no salvation outside the RCC when that is clearly what you've been saying all along?
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If, however, you have been poorly taught by those who are ignorant of the RCC and you carry around in your head these myths and falsehoods, and these myths and falsehoods keep you from enjoying the fullness fiath availably from the RCC, then you cannot be held responsible for the error of your teachers.
So you think that if I'm "ignorant" of the teachings of the RCC I'm not responsible for the error of my teachers and can "come home" to the RCC to be saved. The Lord has erred in His teachings -- they are not full? Let's see ... follow Jesus, follow the RCC ... hmmm ... I'll follow Jesus.
So, if I am a heretic, I have chosen to put myself outside the RCC which means I have no salvation unless I "come home" to the RCC. And, if I have erred in following the teachings of Jesus and such teachings are keeping me from the faith available from the RCC, then I am forgiven for my being led astray and can still "come home" to her and be saved. Wow. But, what if I'm not a heretic, haven't been led astray by Jesus and don't join the RCC? Is there salvation for me according to your beliefs? I think you have clearly demonstrated there is NOT.
Isn't it funny how Catholics can't be sure of their eternal salvation, but they can be assured of others damnation.
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EDITED TO ADD:
My responses regarding the eucharist are posted in the eucharist thread.
< Message edited by WildByNature -- 4/4/2008 11:45:54 AM >
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/4/2008 11:49:29 AM
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Fritzpw_Admin
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/4/2008 2:21:46 PM
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Doghouse
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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The normative path to salvation is grace - through faith, hope and charity. Not withstanding that normative path, God may save anyone He so pleases.
Therefore, God has given us a faith, instructed and exampled by Jesus - to the Apostles - which has then been given to us. In my case, I believe this to be through Church, which is the Apostolic See in my world. This path is the path we are asked to take in calling ourselves Christian, noting that St. Augustine, for example, came to this path very late in life after years of trodding on another. Had his soul been called before seeking the Christian way, it would have suffered the consequnces of the choices of being secular, rather than of faith. In the end - it worked out for him. God called him to Christ before calling him home. There is a discussion we could have on "rolling the dice" as opposed to practicing the faith webelieve we have been instructed to practice.
In the above example above, what I question is the disconnection of Scriptures frm the Apostolic message. The NT Scriptures ARE the Apostolic Deposit of Faith by Jesus in the Church.
To severe Scripture from this connection to Church and the Magisterium, I belive is in error, and can generate error.
It is how the world winds up with Benny Hinn...among other "religious" personalities.
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"Stop judging and you will not be judged. Stop condemning and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven. Give and gifts will be given to you;...For the measure with which you measure will in return be measured out to you."
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/4/2008 9:54:35 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1978
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
The normative path to salvation is grace - through faith, hope and charity. Not withstanding that normative path, God may save anyone He so pleases.
Doghouse, I thought that you and I were in agreement about this matter. You agreed that Christ Himself is the normative path to salvation, since He is the Way, the Truth, and the Llife, and no human being can come to the Father except through Him (Jn. 14:6).
Now you are saying "faith, hope, and charity" is the normative path. Don't you believe the Scriptures? It is "not by works of righteousenss which we have done, but according to His mercy that He saves us".
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/4/2008 10:10:04 PM
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PeterD
Posts: 434
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
The normative path to salvation is grace - through faith, hope and charity. Not withstanding that normative path, God may save anyone He so pleases.
Doghouse, I thought that you and I were in agreement about this matter. You agreed that Christ Himself is the normative path to salvation, since He is the Way, the Truth, and the Llife, and no human being can come to the Father except through Him (Jn. 14:6).
Now you are saying "faith, hope, and charity" is the normative path. Don't you believe the Scriptures? It is "not by works of righteousenss which we have done, but according to His mercy that He saves us".
The Jerusalem Council / The Council’s Letter to Gentile Believers
This sounds like Peter and Paul from "Acts 15:1-41" let's learn from them rather than split my friend's.
Peter
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/5/2008 6:25:09 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 838
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
Now you are saying "faith, hope, and charity" is the normative path Of these "ingredients", the faith bit is obvious, isn't it? And - can we have faith or realize faith without hope? A desire to be with God and to do His will? Surely these two are beyond question, aren't they, and can be conceded?
Which leaves charity - love thy neighbor as thy self. Is this anti-Scriptural? That we should look after one another and care for one another and lend a hand from time to time, especially to those less fortunate?
These three facets are reflective and demonstrative of a living faith in Jesus. No - I believe you and I ARE in agreement. That to follow Jesus is to successfully incoporate these three facets of His instruction to us in our lives.
The ONLY two differences between you and I in the end game is the perceived authority of our instruction and discernment, and the completeness (or excess, depending on your perspective) of our practice. As far as discernment, you choose to do this on your own and you believe you are authorized to do such; I choose to receive it from someone else I deem more qualified than me who I believe is authorized and charged with this task. As to practice - this is the same relativity across all of Christendom. How do you compare Mother Teresa to Billy Graham? Best stay out of that judgment and leave it up to God, while noting both of these souls have dedicated their adult lives to charitable Christian service.
If you and I were to genuinely sit down and take a "test", you would find a lot more agreement and less disagreement than I suspect you would think. As would everyone here. We all accept Jesus as our Lord and we all desire an eternal presence with God at the end of our earthly lives.
We just discuss here the details of the playbook on how we are to reflect that faith and hope (and charity) in our daily lives. Faith, hope and charity do not "earn" our salvation - they reflect it. In absence of any of these three, the Christian is charged with the task of self-examination is to "why" and "how" these may be re-incorporated in to religious practice.
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"Stop judging and you will not be judged. Stop condemning and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven. Give and gifts will be given to you;...For the measure with which you measure will in return be measured out to you."
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/5/2008 2:07:13 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1978
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quote:
Faith, hope and charity do not "earn" our salvation - they reflect it. In absence of any of these three, the Christian is charged with the task of self-examination is to "why" and "how" these may be re-incorporated in to religious practice.
Doghouse:
Once again we are 100% in agreement.
Therefore you should not continue to insist that "the Church" is the normative path to salvation. Since you agree that Christ Himself is our salvation, there can be no compromising of that Truth.
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/6/2008 9:01:49 PM
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Doghouse
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
Therefore you should not continue to insist that "the Church" is the normative path to salvation. Respectfully, I submit to you that this is throwing the baby out with the bath water...
To follow Jesus and His instruction is to be involved with Church (your Church, my Church - any Church...). Its inescapable in my mind.
_____________________________
"Stop judging and you will not be judged. Stop condemning and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven. Give and gifts will be given to you;...For the measure with which you measure will in return be measured out to you."
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/16/2008 8:15:32 AM
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ferdgoodfellow
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At the heart of the salvation controversy is the idea of justification. How does one git right wid God? To kick things off, I would just like to test the Catholic view that its understanding of justification is the ancient, historical one, and that the dominant Protestant understanding is an innovation. In other words, the Protestant view was not accepted or taught by the Church before the 16th Century.
I realize that since the Reformation, Protestant thinking on justification is far from settled and uniform, but tis a fair generalization that it views justifcation as a one-time, imputational event. In contrast, the Catholic sees justification as an on-going process with a beginning, middle and end that has both imputational and an "infused" nature.
I'll begin by citing Alister McGrath who said in his Iustitia Dei, pp 186-187 : A fundamental discontinuity was introduced into the western theological tradition where none had ever existed, or ever been contemplated before. The Reformation understanding of the nature of justification--as opposed to its mode--must be regarded as a genuine theological novum."
cordially,
ferd
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/16/2008 9:29:57 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1089
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ferdgoodfellow
In contrast, the Catholic sees justification as an on-going process with a beginning, middle and end that has both imputational and an "infused" nature. So would the Catholic view be that justification is a subjective process that takes place within the individual? It would be an inward change in one's moral character? If so, it seems to me, that would mean that justification is tied to one's works in a direct way, and because it is a process, one can never be certain that he has reached a level of works that makes him acceptable to God.
I dunno, maybe I'm way off base here. I'm just trying to understand. 
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/16/2008 11:34:07 AM
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ferdgoodfellow
Posts: 660
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Hi Great,
Justification is both a matter of how God views us and how we are actually changed on the inside. The purely imputational view says that when God looks at us he just sees Jesus, and we remain as were. Luther used the pile of dung covered by snow image.
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