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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/2/2008 1:26:38 PM
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JesKlu
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ferdgoodfellow
Hi HD,
I am a 55 year old cradle Catholic. During my college years, while remaining a theist, I lost my belief in a personal God. But i came back. I have been helped by numerous Evangelical and Catholic friends on my Christian journey. Along the way I have been nourished by the Sacraments and enriched by experiences with Marriage Encounter, Cursillo, Life in the Spirit, Promise Keepers and Marian Eucharistic Congresses.
Hello ferdgoodfellow!
I don't want to start an argument, but I am kind of offended at the Marian Eucharistic Congresses. I will tell you why. I believe in the Bodily presence of Jesus in this Holy Sacrament, that the true Body and Blood of Christ are truly received along with the bread and wine. Since I believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, I am offended that the Catholics believe Mary is present as well? That does not make sense. We do not receive the body and blood of Mary in the Sacrament, but the true Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. Can you please explain this Marian Eucharistic Conference?
I know this belongs on another thread, but since we receive forgiveness of sins in the Sacrament, I do believe it also pertains to salvation as well.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/2/2008 1:40:04 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 910
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
I don't want to start an argument, but I am kind of offended at the Marian Eucharistic Congresses. I will tell you why. I believe in the Bodily presence of Jesus in this Holy Sacrament, that the true Body and Blood of Christ are truly received along with the bread and wine. Since I believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, I am offended that the Catholics believe Mary is present as well? That does not make sense. We do not receive the body and blood of Mary in the Sacrament, but the true Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. Can you please explain this Marian Eucharistic Conference?
My legs would hurt if I jumped to a conclusion that hard...
I'll let Ferd explain this to you. It's not what you assume it to be...not at all...
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/2/2008 1:41:51 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 910
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
Which group of Protestants do you encouonter most of the time? Unaffiliated, non-denominational Evangelicals (mega-Church members), Baptists, then Methodists.
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/2/2008 1:45:07 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 910
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
And innovation is the hallmark of heresy, which ought to give SF believers some pause. If the mountain top is claimed, it only leaves the valley to be fought for...
The problem with innovation is that if the Orthodox view is "right", it only leaves the position of "not right" as the only possible option or selection.
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/2/2008 3:33:09 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 528
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
Which group of Protestants do you encouonter most of the time? Unaffiliated, non-denominational Evangelicals (mega-Church members), Baptists, then Methodists.
The first three groups you mentioned I don't think believe Baptism is a necessary component of salvation. I'm not sure about Methodists, though.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/2/2008 3:44:13 PM
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ferdgoodfellow
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Hi Jessica,
Please be assured that we believe that only Jesus is present in the Blessed Sacrament. Marian doctrines are quite separate and distinct from the Eucharist. It just so happens that Marian Eucharistic Congresses feature both a Marian theme and eucharistic adoration.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/2/2008 3:46:14 PM
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ferdgoodfellow
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Hi Doghouse,
Not quite sure what you meant in yer last post.
ferd
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/2/2008 5:38:54 PM
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ferdgoodfellow
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Maybe you meant "orthodox" with a small "O"?
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/2/2008 6:09:47 PM
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preachermyron
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Ps103- Not every Catholic is like you and some others even on this forum. They love being Catholic more than they love Jesus. That is a real fact like it or not. I'm telling you about real actual reactions that I've gotten from Catholics I've talked to. These others pay more attention to and respect Pope Benedict XVI more instead of full allegiance to Jesus. Any true Christian reads, studies and memorizes God's Word. You can't be a Christian and argue against God's Word. Besides a true Christian focuses on Jesus and the Bible and not denominational dogma and doctrines, and traditions. Jesus should be the most important thing in a believers life. More so than spouses, children and extended family. More than jobs, careers ,money and possessions. If any of these are more important than Jesus you need to get off the other stuff and unto Him ASAP. This is called being totally sold out to God. God won't except anything less than all of you. He won't accept even 99.99999% of you. With God it is all or n othing. Myron. preachermyron@yahoo.com
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/2/2008 6:31:07 PM
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preachermyron
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Jesus is not in the Eucharist. Jesus said "Do this in rememberance of Me." (Luke 22:19) It is only a memorial and a thank you to Jesus and nothing else. No person on Earth has the ability to change the Creator of all things into bread and wine by some occultic and magical prayer. God never meant the Eucharist to become some religious act that people made up. Myron. preachermyron. preachermyron@yahoo.com
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/2/2008 6:37:33 PM
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Doghouse
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
Maybe you meant "orthodox" with a small "O"? Uhhh...yes, I did.
My last post was covering the leap from the title of a conference containing the words "Marian" and "Eucharist" to that meaning that Catholics accept that Mary is present in the Eucharist.
It was so a large jump, it made my head swim for a minute...so I must have tripped over the "shift" key while typing "orthodox".
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/2/2008 6:43:36 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 910
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
Jesus should be the most important thing in a believers life. I believe He is for the vast majority of Christians - so much so that they wish to fully know Him and accept His instructions as closely as they can to the authentic deposit of faith in the Apostles. They believe that this deposit lay within the Church, who has guarded, defended, protected and promulgated it throughout history.
These Christians are concerned about a faith derived from their own attempts at self-discernment of Scriptures, and seek a faith that is free from the limits of the individual and time and talent that the individual has for the task of discernment. They accept the authority of the discernment of the institution of Church, who's resources far outweigh their own for such a task, and guard against the error and omission that may occur in self-discernment by those individuals not properly trained and demonstrably skilled for this task.
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/2/2008 6:45:31 PM
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Doghouse
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quote:
Jesus is not in the Eucharist. How do you interpret Jesus's narrative in John, where He actually loses some of His followers over the notion that they must eat His flesh and drink His blood, and they cannot accept this practice?
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/2/2008 11:11:52 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
What label should be applied? Baptism is a pretty universal Sacrament within Christendom. Even the Catholic Church recognizes any Triune Baptism in any Church as being a valid Sacramental Baptism. The Church does not "re-Baptize" anybody, as doing so would deny the validity of the Sacrament.
The point being, that in spite of Baptism being quite widely held and universally practiced, there are still many who refuse it or refuse to recognize its validity.
I perceived you were labeling a "Catholic" Baptism as a distinct Sacrament. I was suggesting that it is not, and that in spite of its universal acceptance, there are still stubborn "hold-outs" in regard to its acceptance - to me meaning that at least some outside the Catholic Church are being erroneously taught (or deceived) from the pulpit, or from the practice of self-discernment.
You said: I could just as easily throw out that denial of the Sacraments is denial of Christ. Where does that really get anyone?
I never mentioned Baptism... You did... You said, Sacraments which means more than just Baptism...
John
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/3/2008 10:28:36 AM
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Odeliya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ferdgoodfellow
Is it really true that we are justified by faith apart everything else? Apart from love?! Apart from hope? Apart from baptism? Apart from the Eucharist? Apart from the Body of Christ?
No, it doesn’t mean apart from love, hope, baptism of the Holy Spirit , etc.. I answered that one already Here. But there is a difference b/n saying 1) your faith should and would cause you to obey God , be baptized, etc. and 2) without water baptism nobody can be possibly saved and enter the kingdom of God.
SS:
Ferd, I see your point and agree that there is, technically, no such thing as Sola scriptura for we interpret everything thru our own convictions and beliefs, that’s why people do disagree on interpretation of plain passages. What we rather saying is if something is not in the Scripture - I dont think i am bound to do that.
Listen, brother. I am not as happy with my English as I want to be, but here is one fellow who used ot post here a lot, he has a neat summary on this. It reflects my position on the subject. Would you mind to comment?
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/3/2008 10:36:20 AM
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Odeliya
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quote:
and The Church supports individuals who have dedicated their lives (foregoing family and children) to the task of supporting the Church with her responsibilities, and are suitably prepared and have demonstrated ample abilities for this task (PhD's from Notre Dame, etc.). Not the same as the 20 year old college student having a go at Scriptures and the task of self-discernment through which any possible interpretation (and some impossible ones) are sometimes erroneously rendered.
 I think we (P) didn’t quite make ourselves clear on this, DH We dont deny that a 20 y.o needs study, guidance, pastors, and life experience to get mature. What we are saying rather – a 20 y.o should know enough and be grounded in Scripture solidly to be able to discern a cult and wolves in sheep’s clothing. You have boys – don’t you want them to be able to do that ?
Parents cant brainwash their kids that their Catholic (Baptist, Methodist, etc.) church to be the only true one "Because I said so".It looks like an easy way! – but that also means someone else can brainwash that child later as well.
Parents should raise independent thinkers. Believe something because the pope, pastor or Phd in theology said so? But tomorrow another educated and holy one will contradict the previous one’s teachings. Then what the kids to do ? Change their beliefs? We can rely only on our own discernment. Teacher has to earn my trust and I will still be checking his views against the Biblical teachings.
I need some parent to authoritate the point..John (SiH) would you kindly endorse this message, Sir?
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/3/2008 10:44:27 AM
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Odeliya
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quote:
Why do I get judged for being "Catholic", before anyone ascertains my passion, zeal, enthusiasm, and love of Jesus? Why is it immediately presumed by some that I can't possess these, because I am Catholic and these cannot possibly exist within her?
I guess then we just gotta develop tough skin if we want to be Christians, brother  regardless of denom :) I am with HD on this - i hope i never accused any catholic personally. I do strongly disagree with RC, but know many wonderful, true christians who are catholic.
People will always be putting labels on..As saying goes : there will always be people around that consider your choice of religion, spouse and clothes to be wrong, stupid and immoral. :)
humbleness helps, as ferd says, I learned to shut up my big mouth about this whole speculation about who's the whore of Babylon. If we look close enough there are so many churches that fit the description, all the Wofers, joelosteens, and whole bunch of others. I mean, it's Babylon, not Las vegas, how many whores could there possibly be?
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/3/2008 11:04:24 AM
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JesKlu
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
What label should be applied? Baptism is a pretty universal Sacrament within Christendom. Even the Catholic Church recognizes any Triune Baptism in any Church as being a valid Sacramental Baptism. The Church does not "re-Baptize" anybody, as doing so would deny the validity of the Sacrament.
The point being, that in spite of Baptism being quite widely held and universally practiced, there are still many who refuse it or refuse to recognize its validity.
I perceived you were labeling a "Catholic" Baptism as a distinct Sacrament. I was suggesting that it is not, and that in spite of its universal acceptance, there are still stubborn "hold-outs" in regard to its acceptance - to me meaning that at least some outside the Catholic Church are being erroneously taught (or deceived) from the pulpit, or from the practice of self-discernment.
You said: I could just as easily throw out that denial of the Sacraments is denial of Christ. Where does that really get anyone?
I never mentioned Baptism... You did... You said, Sacraments which means more than just Baptism...
John
Hello John!
I am a Lutheran, and whenever I hear the word Sacraments I do not think of the 7 sacraments of the Catholic Church. I think of the two instituted by Christ Himself; Baptism and the Sacrament of the Altar (Communion). The Lutheran Church is also thinking about adding a 3rd, which would be Confession. Why? Christ always talked about repentence/confessing our sins, so why not add it to the list? Other than those 3, the word Sacrament does not come to my mind.
Anyway, Doghouse does have a point when he says there are those Christians who do not think baptism is of any importance. Just look around on this forum under the Are you Saved but not baptized forum. It is right there. So, those people, who deny baptism is important at all, contrary to what Scripture says, they shame the rest of us Protestants who do believe baptism is important.
Anyway, I was just trying to make a point.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/3/2008 1:20:24 PM
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preachermyron
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Doghouse - When Jesus said "you must drink my blood and eat my flesh" it was a figure of speech. He used easy things that people could understand(i.e. : farming,nature )instead of huge and difficult theological terms like the Pharisees and many of today's preachers. Here, Jesus is telling these people that "I AM the Messiah that you have been waiting for and that there would be no other". They were having a huge problem believing Joe the carpenter's son who they saw growing up in Nazareth could be the Messiah. He was telling them in His way that they would have to choose what He would be doing in due time was God the Father's plan of salvation. By accepting His One time sacrifice it would no longer be necessary to offer up bulls and goats anymore. The Pharisees were saying that Jesus was destroying the Law that had received as part of the covenant given by God to the Jews. But Jesus was trying to teach them that He came to fufill the Law and not to destroy it. This is what you celebrate and commerate at your Eucharist. But you don't turn Jesus the Messiah and Creator into wine and bread. That's impossible and ridiculous. Myron. preachermyron@yahoo.com
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/3/2008 1:47:17 PM
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preachermyron
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JesKlu - Water baptism doesn't ever save one person from their sins. Water baptism is only an outward expression of a heart that has turned away from sin and over to God. Water baptism can't save anyone from sin. Sin is a spiritual matter and can only be dealt with repentance (not penance, a phony imitation). To repent means to turn 360 degrees all the way from sin and allow the Holy Spirit to change your life (see Romans 12:1,2 ). Penance is trying to bribe God with how good you are without turning away from your sins. You keep trying to do penance over and over again with no intentention of ever turning from your sins. This because penance seems easier even although it's a lie from Hell. True repentance means you are willing to start all over with God. Penance says I'll keep my old lifestyle and do whatever I want because God will just keep accepting my acts of penance. Water baptism of babies is also a lie. Babies were dedicated at the temple not water baptized until they became old enough. Each individual has the responsibility of repenting, turning from sins and letting the Holy Spirit change them. They must be old enough to do this their own . God doesn't accept stand-ins. You can't confirm anyone as a saint as or as born-again. Only God and not popes or other ministers have the authority to save and confirm. Besides a saint is anyone alive who is born again as described above and not by manmade works. A saint isn't a dead person appointed by popes or anyone else. Myron. preachermyron@yahoo.com
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/3/2008 4:32:15 PM
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preachermyron
Posts: 26
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Odelylia - Whether you're Catholic, Protestant or Jew the Bible and Jesus (and not your denomination, leaders or ethniic background) should be absolutely the only thing that matters. When you are born again you are born into God's kingdom and out of whatever you were in the past. That is the meaning of becoming a "new creation in Christ" in 2 Corinthians 5:17. There is too much emphasis on Catholicism and not enough Jesus and the Bible in this chat room. I'm from an Ukrainian Eastern Orthodox background. I'm very proud of my Ukrainian background But Im more proud of belonging to the One who saved me from and out of of my sins, Jesus Christ. Ways to please Jesus and not the Catholic Church and Pope Benedict XVI should be the main topic here. Continual emphasis on Catholicism and Pope Benedict XVI makes people like me wonder about who do you love the most? Amy Semple Mc Pherson our Foursquare founder and Pastor Jack Hayford our current president get our respect but they never ever become more important of a discussion than Jesus and the Bible. This the reason that Catholics are questioned so much about their faith. Who is the main focus and importance to Catholics? Myron. preachermyron@yahoo.com
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/3/2008 5:05:01 PM
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preachermyron
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When I attend men's group, men's Bible study or any services the main emphasis is Jesus and the Bible. Very rarely do we discuss unless it's absolutely necessary, anytihg about our founders, doctrinal issues or our leaders. Jesus is our first love and not our founder or leaders or doctrinal issues. If you're a genuine Christian that is what you are supposed to do. Myron. preachermyron@yahoo.com
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/3/2008 8:35:17 PM
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Ps103
Posts: 11528
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Here, now
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quote:
Ps103- Not every Catholic is like you and some others even on this forum.
Where did I say I was Catholic?
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/4/2008 6:47:17 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 910
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
Doghouse - When Jesus said "you must drink my blood and eat my flesh" it was a figure of speech. Says you. I think the dialog and exchange in the passages of John 5 are pretty clear:
Jesus: You must eat my flesh and drink my blood...
Followers: Yeah, right...oh that Jesus, what a comedian...
Jesus: No, I'm serious. In doing this you will share with me eternal life...
Followers (with jaws dropping to the ground): Dude - you are off your rocker. I'm afraid we can't hang with you anymore, bro'...
That's the narrative in John (basically). I don't see how you torture the discernment you do in your post out of those passages. I mean - this the whole point that John is trying to bring forward - following Jesus was a radical departure (and continues to be so) from the "norm". While Jesus did sometimes use metaphors or allegory, He was never cryptic. The passages mean what they say. Especially given the accounts of the "last supper".
If you want me to post the passages, I will. You know where they are.
As to the rest of your posts, I find them a bit (well, okay, a lot) presumptive - from a lack of stating "I believe..." when stating mere opinion, all the way to presumptions about other poster's beliefs and values. I don't see where you get off making judgments.
It brings to mind something about removing the plank from one's own eye before reaching for the speck in another's....
Just a humble opinion of the tail-wagging best friend of man....
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 6/4/2008 7:08:17 AM >
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/4/2008 7:06:26 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 910
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
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quote:
There is too much emphasis on Catholicism and not enough Jesus and the Bible in this chat room. There are hundreds of threads here where nary a word is mentioned about Catholics. You have selected one of the 8 or 10 threads that do discuss Catholics. If you can't stand the heat - get out of the kitchen, brother.
quote:
Who is the main focus and importance to Catholics? The main focus is a living relationhip with God through his Son Jesus Christ. This is done by having faith and hope, and practicing charity. Everything else you stated is your own strawmen inserted into the discussion, for the purposes of deflection and distraction.
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 6/4/2008 7:14:37 AM >
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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