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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/11/2008 6:52:06 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 738
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quote:
There are many Catholics such as myself, that hope to see a conciliation between Orthodox Christianity and the Roman Catholic Church in the next 50 years. Obviously, this sentiment is not reflected by all within the Orthodox faith community...
_____________________________
John 14 - "Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves...whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father."
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/11/2008 10:49:44 PM
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Papa-san
Posts: 1094
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
I don't see it as trusting an 80 year old man (or a group of them), but a 2,000 year old institution...I see the work of the Holy Spirit in preserving this institution for us when so many others have come and gone. I see that the Holy Spirit could have guided Luther in giving people an alternative to what he perceived were short-comings and compromises of the institution, but that lacking that guidance, there were flaws and defects created in the administration of this alternative (set aside the theology for a second...) that has led to the successive division and schism of this alternative into the thousands of variants and versions of faith seen today. I believe that if the Holy Spirit had been guiding Luther, the post "Theses" Church would have an entriely different, unified look to it, and could truly be an authority to lay claim on Apostolic faith the way the Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox do.
As it is - it is the mess that it is. How do we attribute that creation to the work and influence of the Holy Spirit?
Quite a testament to how incredibly completely the RCC had messed it up by that time, eh? You know you've blown it when the Holy Spirit has to basically start from scratch... Thank God that He made sure to give us a written format with which we could begin to effect repairs! Luthers progress has been supported by the Holy Spirit. How else would there be such a strong movement that has not only lasted for so many years, but is continuing to grow exponentially! Our numbers are being increased by many new people coming to the faith from either nothing or from the flawed RCC system. Your church is growing by no more than a fraction of the number of people who are being birthed into it. Most of those millions you claim are a part of it have no knowledge of doctrine and rarely, if ever, show up at Mass. The 'deluded millions' is how I have referred to them before.
Your 'church' is no less corrupt than the Protestant pastor you wrote about, and at least that pastor hasn't been able to pass his criminality down over thousands of years as the RCC has been able to... Plus, his limited 'ministry' hasn't allowed for further modifications over many centuries... I will also state that his example is the exception, not the rule. The dozens of small fundamental Protestant churches around here can honestly say that 80% of their members are in services no less than once per week. The small RC church here has over 1,100 members in it, yet less than a hundred show up once a week... THAT speaks VOLUMES! (Not to mention the fact that I can't get too many of them to agree with each other about what the 'Truth' is.)
Suffice it to say, we are trying to expunge the mountainous mess RCC has made, and put it all back to where God intended it to be. Like I said, we have a lot of bad theology to 'unlearn', so it isn't a quick process!
You just happen to be a serious minority in your church, and are hanging on to the glories of yesteryear. The RCC lost any real touch with God centuries ago. The only reason there is still power there is because of the trillions of dollars worth of treasures that have been begged, borrowed, and stolen over two millennia. There are a lot of clueless people who still write their checks to the RCC institution for no other reason than that's where Dad sent his money... They have no clue what Christ and His apostles taught. Only the hugely different teachings of the 'church'. (And the percentage of them that can even explain that accurately is close to the single-digit percentiles...)
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/11/2008 11:08:09 PM
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gatolover
Posts: 564
Joined: 6/23/2006
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Brother Doghouse,
Just poppin' in to say, nicely done in 4550.
It is unfortunate that some of the varieties of EOC are less inclined to discuss our differences in a peace-filled, Christ-like manner...especially in such a hostile environment.
I miss Unworthyseraphim about now.
Pax et bonum and Happy Pentecost!
gatolover
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/12/2008 12:19:59 AM
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Papa-san
Posts: 1094
Joined: 4/12/2006
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Sometimes glaring truth can strike one as an almost hostile thing...
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/12/2008 4:08:56 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3139
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quote:
I contrast that to the rich pastor of the non-denom evangelical Church down the street, who regularly fleeces his flock so that he may buy a bigger lake house, or a bigger boat, or another Swiss gold watch, or a Porsche for his 18 year old son - all 100% tax-free. Pathetic attempt to justify RC's monarchal church government by insinuating that all other denominations other than itself is dishonest. We can hear in that attempt the constant refrain of "I'm forever building strawmen".
quote:
In your post, you talk about receiving instruction, which is then "checked". It begs the question - are you learning anything new? (how do you check that?), or are you learning different versions or twists of the oldno subject, and now have to perform the critical analysis of your previous instructors? It is elementary; nonetheless, let me explain. Some pastor/priest tells you that God instructs you to fall on your knees before a statue and pray to that statue to beg grace and salvation. Gee, what to do?....it sounds kind of odd. I get a bright idea....I'll go to the Bible to see if what this priest/pastor says is true. And, low and behold, I find it's a lie.
That's called "checking" to see if what you're taught is true. And, of course, in the example given, the Bible is clear; and, the pastor/priest is either lying, deceived or just plain ignorant. And because we obeyed the biblical principle we need not fall into that trap. Precisely why God gave us His written Word and did not give a "universal authoritative interpreter of Sripture".
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/12/2008 5:35:09 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 738
Joined: 8/25/2007
Status: online
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quote:
It is unfortunate that some of the varieties of EOC are less inclined to discuss our differences in a peace-filled, Christ-like manner...especially in such a hostile environment. I wasn't aware of this. In my neck of the woods, the Catholics and the Orthodox are a pretty tightly knit bunch.
quote:
Pax et bonum and Happy Pentecost! Yes - I always kind of like the red vestments. Next week, back to "ordinary" Sundays for a while...
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 5/12/2008 5:42:17 AM >
_____________________________
John 14 - "Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves...whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father."
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/12/2008 5:47:10 AM
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martyfran
Posts: 495
Joined: 7/17/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
The only reason there is still power there is because of the trillions of dollars worth of treasures that have been begged, borrowed, and stolen over two millennia.
Ok, if you claim the Pope has trillions, lets see the evidence. Also, please answer the following questions:
1. How much wealth does the vatican have?
2. How much of it is from offerings (i.e. in your term begged)
3. How much of it is borrowed and from whom.
4. How much of it is stolen and who did they steal it from?
I know these should be easy questions for you to answer, so I look forward to your response.
< Message edited by martyfran -- 5/12/2008 1:41:51 PM >
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/12/2008 6:42:49 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 498
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quote:
Ok, if you claim the Pope has trillions, lets see the evidence. Also, please answer the following questions:
1. How much wealth does the vatican have?
2. How much of it is from offerings (i.e. in your term begged)
3. How much of it is borrowed and from whom.
4. How much of it is stolen and who did they steal it from?
I know these should be easy questions for you to answer, so I look forward to your response.
I thought that was over two thousands years, not two years.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/12/2008 7:10:46 PM
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martyfran
Posts: 495
Joined: 7/17/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
quote:
Ok, if you claim the Pope has trillions, lets see the evidence. Also, please answer the following questions:
1. How much wealth does the vatican have?
2. How much of it is from offerings (i.e. in your term begged)
3. How much of it is borrowed and from whom.
4. How much of it is stolen and who did they steal it from?
I know these should be easy questions for you to answer, so I look forward to your response.
I thought that was over two thousands years, not two years.
I am not sure what difference the time period makes. Papa claims that he knows that the Vatican has trillions of dollars worth of assets. He also claims that some of these assets were stolen. some were begged and some were borrowed. I am asking him to fill us in on the detail of his vast knowledge of this.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/12/2008 9:04:48 PM
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Papa-san
Posts: 1094
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We have been through this before...
The 'assets' include a few priceless paintings and very old bits of jewelry. All of which would feed many thousands of starving humans if stewarded the way Christ wanted it to be done. However, we are talking Catholic, so Christ's desires really don't play into it.
As to how much of this was plundered over four hundred years of the Crusades, I do not know. Get me an inventory of all that's there and I can get you some numbers, maybe. How about the value of Vatican City itself? How much money was spent in building all of the RCC churches all over the world? Like it or not, those are actually assets... Money was spent in purchasing the property on which some of them sit, and was spent on having all of them built. Those are assets.
Does the pope 'own' them personally? No. But he is the steward of these things, and as long as one of his followers is hungry, Bennie should pass on his meals. Maybe he could get a few thousand dollars on some of the papal mitres? I'm pretty sure that would feed some starving folks. As long as one of his followers is homeless, he should be offering his bed up for them... THATS what Christ would do. Thus those are some of the differences between Christ and the 'church' that claims to be His...
So, knowing that, the pope still sleeps under the worlds most costly sheets, and wears only the most expensive clothing. It's custom made. I sure haven't seen him wearing a stained shirt from Wal-mart like a few of the Catholics I saw there today...
You know very well that I cannot specifically quantify the value of the assets the pope is the steward of. Yet only a fool would believe that it doesn't reach into the billions of dollars. All of that belongs to God, as we all know. The difference is in how it is stewarded. Christ didn't have a bed to lay on, or a pillow to lay His head. Once we see that Bennie is living in a modest shack and has sold off the Vatican holdings to feed His sheep, we will know we are dealing with a Christian... Until then, there is good reason to doubt it...
To 'beg, borrow, or steal' is a common saying. I don't believe the Vatican has ever needed to borrow money. The offerings that come in pay for all that is needed by those who live in luxury there. And what was plundered in the Crusades probably hasn't run out yet...
You can NOT tell me honestly that those who live there are not living in the lap of luxury. I wouldn't have a problem with that if there were no hungry or homeless Catholics. But there are millions...
But fear not! We are bringing Catholics into our fold in droves! Mostly because they see us doing what God has commanded and sharing sacrificially, all the while seeing the papal excess while they can only feed their families on odd days. Well, on the even ones they are having hot meals delivered by Protestants, with no expectation of any recompense. So, even if your 'pope' is failing to feed his sheep, we are picking up some of his slack! They see this and realize that they need to re-evaluate their ideas of what 'church' even is...
< Message edited by Papa-san -- 5/12/2008 9:18:18 PM >
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/12/2008 9:48:13 PM
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Lurker
Posts: 744
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Silver Spring, MD
Status: offline
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quote:
While Jesus was in Bethany in the home of a man known as Simon the Leper, a woman came to him with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, which she poured on his head as he was reclining at the table. When the disciples saw this, they were indignant. "Why this waste?" they asked. "This perfume could have been sold at a high price and the money given to the poor."
Aware of this, Jesus said to them, "Why are you bothering this woman? She has done a beautiful thing to me. The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me. When she poured this perfume on my body, she did it to prepare me for burial. I tell you the truth, wherever this gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her."
Tell me, is it wrong to honour Our Lord by offering to Him great works of art and sharing them with the faithful?
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/12/2008 9:50:14 PM
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martyfran
Posts: 495
Joined: 7/17/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
We have been through this before...
The 'assets' include a few priceless paintings and very old bits of jewelry. All of which would feed many thousands of starving humans if stewarded the way Christ wanted it to be done. However, we are talking Catholic, so Christ's desires really don't play into it.
The Vatican certainly does own some artwork. What amount it would bring on the open market is anyone's guess. Now of course, if we had no art whatsoever in society, the poor would have more to eat wouldn't they? So you are saying that art, always and everywhere is frivolous and a true Christian should never own anything above and beyond the bare minimum needed for survival?
quote:
How much money was spent in building all of the RCC churches all over the world? Like it or not, those are actually assets... Money was spent in purchasing the property on which some of them sit, and was spent on having all of them built. Those are assets.
Certainly there are churches all over the world, but of course, the churches are not owned by the Vatican. So they should not count as part of the Vatican's wealth. In a previous post, around September or so of last year, I did a calculation that assumed each parish in the world owned $1 million worth of property. Clearly a generous assumption, given the poor countries have property worth very little. The estimated value of that property was $218 billion, which is a very far cry from the trillions that people like you claim.
quote:
Does the pope 'own' them personally? No. But he is the steward of these things, and as long as one of his followers is hungry, Bennie should pass on his meals. Maybe he could get a few thousand dollars on some of the papal mitres? I'm pretty sure that would feed some starving folks. As long as one of his followers is homeless, he should be offering his bed up for them... THATS what Christ would do. Thus those are some of the differences between Christ and the 'church' that claims to be His...
Are you willing to live by the same standard. Are you willing to move out of your house and into a cardboard box so that poor people can have a nicer place to stay.
quote:
You know very well that I cannot specifically quantify the value of the assets the pope is the steward of. Yet only a fool would believe that it doesn't reach into the billions of dollars.
Then why did you make the claim? What kind of example does that set when you make a claim and you cannot possible even begin to back it up? I also see you are changing your story. In your previous post you said trillions, now you are claiming billions. So what is it?
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/13/2008 4:04:06 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3139
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
The only reason there is still power there is because of the trillions of dollars worth of treasures that have been begged, borrowed, and stolen over two millennia.
Ok, if you claim the Pope has trillions, lets see the evidence. Also, please answer the following questions:
1. How much wealth does the vatican have?
2. How much of it is from offerings (i.e. in your term begged)
3. How much of it is borrowed and from whom.
4. How much of it is stolen and who did they steal it from?
I know these should be easy questions for you to answer, so I look forward to your response.
I suppose it wouldn't hurt to start with all the money RC fleeced from poor naive people with its "get out of purgatory sooner card"....aka, indulgences.
quote:
Now of course, if we had no art whatsoever in society, the poor would have more to eat wouldn't they? Ah, yes, the old Marie Antoinette gambit...didn't work too well for her either.
quote:
I also see you are changing your story. In your previous post you said trillions, now you are claiming billions. So what is it?
Hmm, billions here, billions there....and pretty soon you're talking about real money.....
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/13/2008 4:22:18 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3139
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
quote:
While Jesus was in Bethany in the home of a man known as Simon the Leper, a woman came to him with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, which she poured on his head as he was reclining at the table. When the disciples saw this, they were indignant. "Why this waste?" they asked. "This perfume could have been sold at a high price and the money given to the poor."
Aware of this, Jesus said to them, "Why are you bothering this woman? She has done a beautiful thing to me. The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me. When she poured this perfume on my body, she did it to prepare me for burial. I tell you the truth, wherever this gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her."
Tell me, is it wrong to honour Our Lord by offering to Him great works of art and sharing them with the faithful?
Hmm, I forget where exactly in Scripture we find the Apostles striving to accumulate great works of art and vast fortunes as an "offering" to Our Lord.....
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/13/2008 7:16:27 AM
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martyfran
Posts: 495
Joined: 7/17/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Hmm, I forget where exactly in Scripture we find the Apostles striving to accumulate great works of art and vast fortunes as an "offering" to Our Lord.....
I am not sure that you can call the wealth and the art that the Catholic Church has as the result of striving for it. After all, if it had strived to become wealthy, it would have much more than it does. However, much of its wealth has come from the work that the church does, that is the wealth is tools that the Church uses. For example, should we get rid of the Vatican Library. The Vatican Library over the millenia has preserved many ancient manuscripts that we would not have today if it weren't for the church. Are you saying that this is a bad thing? Should we burn all the books in the Vatican Library?
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/13/2008 4:44:16 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 393
Joined: 12/22/2007
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Dear Doghouse,
Let me start from the drawing board again.  You have expressed the need for a pope and have given various reasons, one of them being that he is the Head of the Church, the Chief Shepherd, and a unifying force.
Ok...with that said. I must point to examples in which the pope has not been effective as a unifying force within the confines of Roman Catholicism. Is the pope not responsible to act when Bishops and Cardinals are out of line according to Catholic doctrine and belief? So I ask....Why hasn't he excommunicated, removed, or at the very least, publicly warned these liberal, recalcitrant bishops? Is he not the Shepherd of the entire RCC? The Shepherd is supposed to rule over the flock. When one of the bishops is purposefully misleading the flock, it is up to the Chief Shepherd to do something about it. Nothing has been done about these wayward bishops and priests.
Now if you feel uncomfortable with this, I can understand. But trying to side-step the issue that this is going on within the RCC is not facing the facts. What about the liberal Catholic colleges where priests and nuns are willfully, and knowingly teaching against the doctrines of the RCC? Why are they not disciplined?
I know of Catholics who attend liberal Catholic universities and the complaints which traditional, faithful Catholics have against the liberal mish-mash taught there. These Catholics either put up with it, or leave to go to a different college.
I will even tell you of my own experience. When I was intent upon becoming a Roman Catholic, I had to look for a parish to attend. The nearest one to my house was out of the question. It is extremely liberal. In fact, the priest there openly gave communion to a Protestant pastor, knowing in advance who he was. This was at a funeral and I know the pastor personally. And then there was the way the mass was conducted which was quite questionable.
So, I had to search to find a parish that actually followed the teachings of the Church and where the priest actually submitted to the Magesterium rather than being Father "Wing-it." I know of other Catholics who have also been very frustrated in trying to find a parish that has priests who actually follow the Church's teachings and submits to the Magesterium.
This is the whole point for my line of questioning. What is the good in having a pope who calls himself "Chief Shepherd" but does very little about the many abuses within various parishes and Catholic universities?
I think this is a fair question to ask.
Heavendweller
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/13/2008 5:16:43 PM
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authorcrat
Posts: 53
Joined: 4/20/2008
Status: offline
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Heavendweller,
If I may take the opportunity to answer.
Unity in teaching does not mean there will not be those who go against it and deliberately step outside what is universally taught.
Does the Church discipline them? When it comes to the knowledge of the bishop in the diocese, he is suppose to take action, unless he is himself in disobedience. When that comes to the notice of the Vatican, disciplinary actions will be taken.
When it comes to ex-communications, there are two types. The first one is that the person who commits the act of teaching against what is universally taught may automatically ex-communicate himself or herself. The second one is handed down by the bishop or if he is the one teaching falsely, by the Pope.
As far as receiving the Eucharist, there may be instances where a member of a Protestant church may be able to receive it from permission from the local bishop and under VERY strict circumstances, one of which is the belief in the Real Presence as taught by the Catholic Church. For us, Protestant Christians are in one way or another attached to the Catholic Church, though not perfectly.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/13/2008 10:33:48 PM
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PeterD
Posts: 435
Joined: 4/27/2007
Status: offline
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NEW YORK — Pope Benedict XVI met with leaders of other Christian faiths on Friday evening, telling them that only by "holding fast" to sound doctrinal teaching can they confront secular ideology and the individualism that "undermines or even rejects transcendent truth."
More than 200 representatives of Eastern Orthodox and Protestant churches met with the pope for an ecumenical prayer service at St. Joseph's Church, a small Roman Catholic parish settled by German immigrants in the Yorkville neighborhood of the upper East Side, where Mass is still said in German once a month.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2008-04-18-pope-ecumenical_N.htm
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/13/2008 11:22:54 PM
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PeterD
Posts: 435
Joined: 4/27/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
Dear Doghouse,
Let me start from the drawing board again. You have expressed the need for a pope and have given various reasons, one of them being that he is the Head of the Church, the Chief Shepherd, and a unifying force.
Ok...with that said. I must point to examples in which the pope has not been effective as a unifying force within the confines of Roman Catholicism. Is the pope not responsible to act when Bishops and Cardinals are out of line according to Catholic doctrine and belief? So I ask....Why hasn't he excommunicated, removed, or at the very least, publicly warned these liberal, recalcitrant bishops? Is he not the Shepherd of the entire RCC? The Shepherd is supposed to rule over the flock. When one of the bishops is purposefully misleading the flock, it is up to the Chief Shepherd to do something about it. Nothing has been done about these wayward bishops and priests.
Now if you feel uncomfortable with this, I can understand. But trying to side-step the issue that this is going on within the RCC is not facing the facts. What about the liberal Catholic colleges where priests and nuns are willfully, and knowingly teaching against the doctrines of the RCC? Why are they not disciplined?
I know of Catholics who attend liberal Catholic universities and the complaints which traditional, faithful Catholics have against the liberal mish-mash taught there. These Catholics either put up with it, or leave to go to a different college.
I will even tell you of my own experience. When I was intent upon becoming a Roman Catholic, I had to look for a parish to attend. The nearest one to my house was out of the question. It is extremely liberal. In fact, the priest there openly gave communion to a Protestant pastor, knowing in advance who he was. This was at a funeral and I know the pastor personally. And then there was the way the mass was conducted which was quite questionable.
So, I had to search to find a parish that actually followed the teachings of the Church and where the priest actually submitted to the Magesterium rather than being Father "Wing-it." I know of other Catholics who have also been very frustrated in trying to find a parish that has priests who actually follow the Church's teachings and submits to the Magesterium.
This is the whole point for my line of questioning. What is the good in having a pope who calls himself "Chief Shepherd" but does very little about the many abuses within various parishes and Catholic universities?
I think this is a fair question to ask.
Heavendweller
Hello Heavendweller,
Relating to Catholic universities, "Pope: Catholic colleges should line up with doctrine"
http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2008-04-18-pope-colleges_N.htm?loc=interstitialskip
PeterD
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/14/2008 1:48:49 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3139
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Hmm, I forget where exactly in Scripture we find the Apostles striving to accumulate great works of art and vast fortunes as an "offering" to Our Lord.....
I am not sure that you can call the wealth and the art that the Catholic Church has as the result of striving for it. After all, if it had strived to become wealthy, it would have much more than it does. However, much of its wealth has come from the work that the church does, that is the wealth is tools that the Church uses. For example, should we get rid of the Vatican Library. The Vatican Library over the millenia has preserved many ancient manuscripts that we would not have today if it weren't for the church. Are you saying that this is a bad thing? Should we burn all the books in the Vatican Library?
I really don't care what RC owns. Actually, the only time it may bother me is when a pope appears to be chastising the U.S. regarding aid to poor countries. No one gives more aid to poor countries than we do so this particular erroneous papal "utterance" annoys me.
But, don't kid yourself that this vast wealth is an "offering" to God.
Hmm, maybe the best fuel to ignite all those "burning books" might be the straw you keep presenting......who said anything about "burning books"?
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/14/2008 6:06:31 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 738
Joined: 8/25/2007
Status: online
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quote:
What about the liberal Catholic colleges where priests and nuns are willfully, and knowingly teaching against the doctrines of the RCC? How about a specific example here? What is being taught that is objectionable? Or this the general "I don't like Boston College..." kind of complaint. I can't respond to that of which I am unaware.
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In fact, the priest there openly gave communion to a Protestant pastor, knowing in advance who he was. There are rules dictating the withholding of the Eucharist by the Priest, and discretion and latitude are left to the Priest as to how to enforce these rules. A funeral is hardly the time or place to take a stand on the rules. Paul instructs us that the individual faithful are responsible for being prepared to participate in the Eucharist. He doesn't instruct us that the ministry is responsible for casting judgment on those that are acting to participate.
Kind of interesting...I have some personal experience with this involving members of my family, but I don't care to get into the story on a public forum. I have an uncle who is a Priest - so I have some first-hand insight into administering Sacraments to non-Catholics who present themselves.
Bishops are responsible for instruction and formation of faith in their Diocese, and some latitude is given to accommodate local norms and customs. So there is some degree of judgment that goes on regarding enforcement. This true of any law - there is statute, and then there is enforcement.
Not every single speeder that goes down the highway gets a ticket, but we can observe that enough get tickets to make sure that the traffic goes about 70 mph in a 65 mph zone. So while not everyone goes exactly 65 mph becuase thats the law, we see that the traffic flows uniformly, more or less.
Latitude to practice faith within certain requirements does not mean disunity. If you are up for it, attend a Latin Rite Mass, and then the very next week, find a Maronite Rite Church, and attend their Mass. Both of thes faiths are in communion - but the worship is a bit different. This does not demonstrate a lack of unity, but a reflection of cultural differences that is accomodated with the Church.
By the way - there is no controlling tenured professors; its the whole point of tenure - no censorship. You are encouraging your professors to "expand minds" and therefore have agreed not to "throttle" your teachers and professors, so that they may pursue this objective.
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 5/14/2008 6:18:16 AM >
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John 14 - "Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves...whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father."
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/14/2008 3:34:56 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1462
Joined: 8/10/2005
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I appreciate your answer, DH, and the follow up critique and debate you had on this, dear friends.
The example of your buddy /his Mexican friend is surely good to show there are some things we don’t have enough knowledge to check and judge, like we trust the doctor with giving us a proper shot. However, there are basics about hygiene, appearance etc, as i said that would make us dismiss the services of a doctor with dirty hands.
I ,for one, believed after reading NT. Of course even now, 5 y. later,i yet cant discern many hard theological things, but I know basics about salvation, Bible says even a child can believe and understand them. If someone tells me that Trinity is wrong, or Jesus is not God surely I know enough to dismiss such teacher
What, in your personal opinion do the Bible verses about discerning teachers and being vigilant mean ? I would like to hear an opinion of a Catholic-what do you use for criteria to learn who is a wrong teacher?
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I contrast that to the rich pastor of the non-denom evangelical Church down the street, who regularly fleeces his flock so that he may buy a bigger lake house, or a bigger boat, or another Swiss gold watch, or a Porsche for his 18 year old son - all 100% tax-free.
Well , I thought we agreed that presence of bad sheep in some churches leadership doesn’t yet mean that denomination can not be presenting the right doctrine. We even agreed while talking about Pope that a fallen, sinful human can still be teaching the right doctrine.
You expect my judgement of CC doctrine not to be affected by the presence of molesters among RC pastors and bad Popes –
I presume in return I can expect your judgement of P doctrine not be affected by the presence of benny hinns and other greedy WoFers in the protestant midst.
Fair?
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Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/14/2008 3:51:40 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1462
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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K : I suppose it wouldn't hurt to start with all the money RC fleeced from poor naive people with its "get out of purgatory sooner card"....aka, indulgences.
The scam as old as the world :) Efficiently selling something to prevent(or diminish) something that doesn’t really exist; and if it did it’s not in human power to fix it by selling each other a piece of paper. Especially works well if played on such universal feelings as guilt, etc. It’s latest version is called "fighting global warming".
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Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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