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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 6/8/2008 9:01:52 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1433
Joined: 7/31/2007
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Well, fair enough, but I suppose I would have to point out that you seem to have a rather skewed idea of Protestantism.
So, to the questions at hand:
I believe we have gone over many of the major issues (Marian cult, the depravity of the Papacy throughout history, praying to dead saints, etc) in various threads. I don't know if we can really discuss those here without moderator intervention.
So, on to the other questions... Half of my family is RCC including several whom I spent a great deal of time with as they lived in our small town. Naturally they wanted to convert me. They're the ones I've learned about the practices from, including attending Mass on occassion, and of course quite a few Catholic weddings and the like. I've read several Catholic pamphlets, including one about their issues with Sola Scriptura. I don't just read material intended to be oppositional to the Catholic church, if that's the question.
I agree with you that there are many Protestant churches with issues. I don't like the "social club" and "give me money" churches any more than you do. I would point out, though, that the Catholic church has the same problems, there are many people who claim to be Catholic who haven't been to church since Easter Mass if you're lucky, their own Confirmation if you're not. I'm sure I could find you a list of parishes who are also seat filling- and offering plate-centric.
So, the question being "Why do we need a Pope?" I would say that I've gotten exactly what you expect out of church, worshipping God, hearing His Word, recommitting to Him, and learning about Him and my relationship with Him, without having to submit myself to the Pope's authority. I do not require any intercessor but Christ Himself, I do not need someone who claims to be part of a oft-straying line back to Peter to have a relationship with Him.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 6/8/2008 9:59:28 PM
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texastweet
Posts: 376
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quote:
I do not require any intercessor but Christ Himself, I do not need someone who claims to be part of a oft-straying line back to Peter to have a relationship with Him.
Zhi
This is a common attitude among protestantism and I eventually had to overcome it myself because from my perspective this statement is saying people are coming to Chirst on their terms and not His.
Otis
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 6/8/2008 11:23:38 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1433
Joined: 7/31/2007
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quote:
This is a common attitude among protestantism and I eventually had to overcome it myself because from my perspective this statement is saying people are coming to Chirst on their terms and not His.
Of course it's a common attitude among protestantism... because it's the attitude we find in Scripture.
I Timothy 2.5 “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”
I don't know what other terms we could come to Christ on, other than the terms He defined.
John 14:6 "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."
Why would you want to "overcome" that which Christ Himself prescribed?
Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
Christ Himself, and God through the writers of Scripture, tell me that I don't need a Pope. I only need Jesus as my Mediator, my High Priest, my Way, Truth, and Life.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 6/9/2008 12:34:51 AM
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PeterD
Posts: 426
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PeterD
Hello Heavendweller,
Maybe by having a pope is just keeping a tradition such as fullfilling a
prophecy.
The Prophecy of the Popes, attributed to Saint Malachy, is a list of 112 short phrases in Latin. They purport to describe each of the Roman Catholic popes (along with a few anti-popes), beginning with Pope Celestine II (elected in 1143) and concluding with a later added pope described in the prophecy as "Peter the Roman", whose pontificate will end in the destruction of the city of Rome.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy_of_the_Popes
PeterD
This is important to the Roman Catholic Popes, this prophecy.
http://www.catholic-pages.com/grabbag/malachy.asp
The Position and Prospects of the Roman Catholic Church, "Benedict XV
will reap what they have sown."
http://www.jstor.org/pss/1507263
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XV
Peter Daniel
< Message edited by PeterD -- 6/9/2008 1:09:24 AM >
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 6/9/2008 4:36:51 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3860
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Sure, I can dogmatically state that Scripture does not teach an office of pope since it cannot be found anywhere in Scripture. Nor, do we find any justification for its subsequent "development".
Actually, we find quite a bit of justification for the office. In particular:
1. Jesus founded a church.
2. Jesus put Peter in charge of the church.
3. Jesus gave Peter the keys and the power to bind and loose. 1. Yep, Jesus founded a church; but, not any particular denomination such as RC.
2. Nope, there is no scriptural evidence that Jesus put Peter in charge of the church.
3. The authority was given to ALL the Apostles not to Peter alone.
quote:
quote:
It has nothing to do with interpretation because there is nothing to interpret. Nothing even slightly intimating a "papacy" can be found in Scripture. This doctrine is simply a part of RC tradition; and I repeat, has nothing to do with biblical truth.
Actually, there is quite a bit of interpretation to be done here, namely:
1. Did Jesus found a real tangible church, or an invisible church that nobody can never be quite sure whether they are a part of?
2. What was the specific role that Jesus placed Peter in? Did Peter have any authority whatsoever?
Actually, you have more than adequately proved my point - nothing even slightly intimating a "papacy" can be found in Scripture. Therefore, interpretation is not necessary. Can't interpret what is not found in the text.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 6/9/2008 4:54:26 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
quote:
ORIGINAL: texastweet
...If the Pope interviened directly of course there would be outcries about how he is overstepping his bounds...
If he was (is) really who and what you Catholics say he is, he doesn't have any boundaries to overstep...
The only possible answer is that he is simply a guy filling a chair and a funny hat. No spiritual significance to him whatsoever...
If only they could get their act together on what RC actually teaches.
"...is, by reason of the Divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer wished His Church to be endowed in defining doctrines of faith and morals; and consequently that such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are irreformable of their own nature (ex sese) and not by reason of the Church's consent" --Infallibility at the Catholic Encyclopedia [1913]
On another note, the papacy is simply an offshoot of the governmental style of that great mistress of the then world - Rome. And over time it's grandeur and power began to be coveted by the Roman bishops. A centralized, universal "spiritual" empire built upon the model of the Roman temporal empire.
As the free states that formerly existed in the world had rendered up their wealth, their independence, and their deities, to form one colossal empire, why, asked the bishops of Rome, should not the various churches throughout the world surrender their individuality and their powers of self-government to the Roman see, in order to form one mighty Catholic Church? Why should not Christian Rome be the fountain of law and of faith to the world, as Pagan Rome had been?
It's an interesting and sometimes even scary study - this Roman papacy.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 6/9/2008 6:08:10 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 891
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quote:
Well, fair enough, but I suppose I would have to point out that you seem to have a rather skewed idea of Protestantism. No doubt - I probably just hang out with skewed Protestants....
quote:
Marian cult I'm not a member of this. I see the same things you do, and can assure you that if anybody thinks Mary is in a position to grant anything to anybody, other than her prayers for our causes, then they are sorely mistaken about who Mary is and what she can do.
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the depravity of the Papacy throughout history This is a non-starter, as there has been plenty of depravity to go around outside the Catholic Church, as well. One of the tap roots of the Protestant movement was the desire of King Henry the VIII to divorce his queen and marry his mistress, so - we all live in a glass house in this regard, and best not be picking up rocks to throw...
quote:
praying to dead saints I am clear on where you stand here. I think this is a disagreement in interpretation, which then goes back to the "authority" discussion. I don't accept your's as valid; your's being your own interpretation of Scriptures. I can find non-Catholic authorities that agree with me. Which ones agree with you?
quote:
I'm sure I could find you a list of parishes who are also seat filling- and offering plate-centric. I will concede that the type of Christianity I was talking about may be unique to my particular geographical area here in the south-central US. I would also challenge you on the notion that your local Parish is about numbers, and your local Protestant Church is not. It is practically a joke among the people I hang with regarding the ubiquitous "visitor cards" in every pew in about every Protestant Church I've ever been in (right above the non-existent "kneelers" as we don't kneel as part of the worship of our God outside the Catholic and EO Churches...). I am not entirely sure that the place of worship is the spot where these should be placed. Somewhere along the line (probably from being goaded to fill one out by a well-intentioned friend when I was in high school or something, and visiting a Church), I got the impression that these are purely for getting people on the "rolls" or claiming a number. I was certainly added to some kind of mailing list seeking appeals for money for a time thereafter (the message being "we're not so concerned about you not being here, as long as your money shows up here...)
I will concede and grant you that my experience here is very focused and very limited, and in no way can be construed as being representative ( or even the norm, for that matter...). I will also concede a certain "gullibility" of people in my neck of the woods, for whatever reason, and that what I am observing are the results of that social norm, rather than observing anything resembling "reality" in regard to administration. But, there is no denying that this has been my experience.
No doubt you have stories of your own.
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 6/9/2008 11:12:45 AM
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Zhi
Posts: 1433
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quote:
No doubt - I probably just hang out with skewed Protestants....
It's possible. Or it's possible that you've misunderstood some of their intentions.
quote:
I'm not a member of this. I see the same things you do, and can assure you that if anybody thinks Mary is in a position to grant anything to anybody, other than her prayers for our causes, then they are sorely mistaken about who Mary is and what she can do.
That's good, but considering some of the things your previous and current Pope have said about Mary (John Paul giving her credit for saving his life, for instance), you might be disagreeing with the papacy on that.
quote:
This is a non-starter, as there has been plenty of depravity to go around outside the Catholic Church, as well. One of the tap roots of the Protestant movement was the desire of King Henry the VIII to divorce his queen and marry his mistress, so - we all live in a glass house in this regard, and best not be picking up rocks to throw...
Well, I guess it's a good thing I'm not Anglican either then.
The difference is that if you were to get another of these depraved Popes, you would be stuck with the decision to either stop being Catholic, or put up with them anyway. If I ended up with a depraved church leader, I could reject them and go find another church without the members of that prior church questioning my salvation and faith.
quote:
I am clear on where you stand here. I think this is a disagreement in interpretation, which then goes back to the "authority" discussion. I don't accept your's as valid; your's being your own interpretation of Scriptures. I can find non-Catholic authorities that agree with me. Which ones agree with you?
I am not aware of a single Protestant denomination that prays to the saints. I suppose there might be one somewhere, but the idea that praying to the saints is not a valid practice is one of the major tenets of Protestantism. This is not my own interpretation of Scripture, this is a basic premise for all Protestants.
quote:
I will concede that the type of Christianity I was talking about may be unique to my particular geographical area here in the south-central US. I would also challenge you on the notion that your local Parish is about numbers, and your local Protestant Church is not.
Actually my local parish is pretty nice. I have seen parishes that are, though.
quote:
It is practically a joke among the people I hang with regarding the ubiquitous "visitor cards" in every pew in about every Protestant Church I've ever been in (right above the non-existent "kneelers" as we don't kneel as part of the worship of our God outside the Catholic and EO Churches...). I am not entirely sure that the place of worship is the spot where these should be placed. Somewhere along the line (probably from being goaded to fill one out by a well-intentioned friend when I was in high school or something, and visiting a Church), I got the impression that these are purely for getting people on the "rolls" or claiming a number. I was certainly added to some kind of mailing list seeking appeals for money for a time thereafter (the message being "we're not so concerned about you not being here, as long as your money shows up here...)
That was a rather screwed up church, then. In all the churches I've been in (we move a lot, sigh), we have always had visitors cards, but those cards were for the purpose of seeing if the visitors had any needs we could help with, not to ask the visitors for money. Frankly they would have been horrified at the idea. One church I've been in, if you filled out a card and checked permission to do so, we would drop by, bring you cookies, and ask if there was anything you needed (especially for anyone who had moved recently). When I look for a church, one of the things I look for is a church that tries to find opportunity to fill the needs of the community as Christ dictated. So, the card comes from the knowledge that people tend to seek out a church when they are either new to the community, or have a deep need, and we want to help them out on either case.
As for kneelers, I have been in several Protestant churches with kneelers. I have not attended a church with kneelers, but in a few of those churches we kneeled anyway. It just wasn't part of a rote routine in our service, like the rote routines I recall from attending church with my Catholic relatives.
quote:
I will concede and grant you that my experience here is very focused and very limited, and in no way can be construed as being representative ( or even the norm, for that matter...). I will also concede a certain "gullibility" of people in my neck of the woods, for whatever reason, and that what I am observing are the results of that social norm, rather than observing anything resembling "reality" in regard to administration. But, there is no denying that this has been my experience.
No doubt you have stories of your own.
Well, I guess I just wish you could visit one of my churches.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 6/9/2008 11:59:23 AM
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Ps103
Posts: 11657
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Anglicans and Lutherans also have kneelers--just FYI.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 6/9/2008 3:55:57 PM
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kelman
Posts: 3860
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quote:
Somewhere along the line (probably from being goaded to fill one out by a well-intentioned friend when I was in high school or something, and visiting a Church), I got the impression that these are purely for getting people on the "rolls" or claiming a number. I was certainly added to some kind of mailing list seeking appeals for money for a time thereafter (the message being "we're not so concerned about you not being here, as long as your money shows up here...) I'd rather be dunned for some money than to be told that no matter our often or how determinately I denounced just about every RC doctrine there is, I'll still die a RC....talk about keeping your "rolls" full....not to mention religious arrogance.
Better to be added to someone's mailing list than to have some religious denomination claim your immortal soul.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 6/9/2008 3:57:02 PM
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kelman
Posts: 3860
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
As for kneelers, I have been in several Protestant churches with kneelers. I have not attended a church with kneelers, but in a few of those churches we kneeled anyway. It just wasn't part of a rote routine in our service, like the rote routines I recall from attending church with my Catholic relatives. This brought back memories of my "yout". By rote is an understatement....they actually had someone click a clicker so that all could rise, sit, stand and kneel in unison....lol
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 6/10/2008 9:08:24 AM
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Doghouse
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quote:
Anglicans and Lutherans also have kneelers--just FYI.
I didn't think Betty's knees bent for anyone...
The Boy Scout Troop I was in growing up met at a Lutheran Church. We would have ceremonial meetings (Court of Honor) in the main congregational assembly area. I honestly don't recall seeing kneelers in there. I am pretty sure I would have remembered, too, because this is one of the those "hallmarks or Protestantism" to me, sort of like Stations of the Cross in a Catholic worship space denotes what that space is.
The only Anglican Church I've been in was in England. The least of my focus was on the floor. This is one of many properties in the UK liberated from the Catholic Church in about 1534 or so (sorry, couldn't control myself...). I couldn't find that transfer of title mentioned anywhere in the "history" link on the site. A Catholic reply to the nobility - built in 1873.
And people wonder where the trouble in Ireland started...?
Sort of off topic, I suppose.
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 6/10/2008 9:39:53 AM >
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 6/10/2008 9:51:17 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 891
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quote:
That's good, but considering some of the things your previous and current Pope have said about Mary (John Paul giving her credit for saving his life, for instance), you might be disagreeing with the papacy on that. No worries there. It is indeed you who are mistaken on the instruction of the Church in this regard...
quote:
The difference is that if you were to get another of these depraved Popes, you would be stuck with the decision to either stop being Catholic, or put up with them anyway. Every Christian is entitled to vote with their feet and their charity in regards to supporting a Church. As to depraved Popes, let's hope that the purpose of the Holy Spirit has already been served by some of the past unsavory Popes that have occupied the office in the Church, and that the Spirit has no further need to hang another one of these on us...
As a challenge - can you name the "bad" Popes? How many Popes have there been? What percentage of them have been "bad"?
quote:
I am not aware of a single Protestant denomination that prays to the saints. There are certainly some that recognize them (canonize them), and in this venerate and honor (or honour) them. These that do are among the original Reformed denominations. I believe this is a practice that many have drifted away from over the years - to their detriment. There is a thread running for that discussion, however.
quote:
I have seen parishes that are, though. I haven't...
quote:
In all the churches I've been in (we move a lot, sigh), we have always had visitors cards, but those cards were for the purpose of seeing if the visitors had any needs we could help with, not to ask the visitors for money. Frankly they would have been horrified at the idea. My experience here is limited and hardly representative. So I will concede the point that the idea behind the cards is to provide some genuine charity, and not to request it.
quote:
Well, I guess I just wish you could visit one of my churches. I genuinely wish this, as well...
My wish for you is that the next time you attend Mass with your relatives, try to forget Catholic/Protestant, and just enjoy being with a bunch of people who love God, through Jesus, as much as you do, and try to think about the Mass being a venue to give thanks and praise to God for all the wonderful things He does for us all the time. Entertain God with your participation. Process up with Parishioners during Communion with your arms crossed in front of your chest and accept the blessing and prayer offered for you by the Priest, Deacon or Lay Minister administering the Eucharist.
It may just change the way you think and participate in your own worship services in your own chosen Church.
Tell your relatives that this Catholic said that they should go to Saturday evening vigil Mass once in a while, and then attend services with you on Sunday. I do this at least every other month with people I am friends with (so yes, the opinons I have formed are from actual experiences, not from prejudice...), because it really supports the personal relationships I have with them, and from a sellfish point of view, I geniunely enjoy the fellowship with them in this type of setting, as well. I am a person of faith, and it may not be exactly their faith, but we share a belief in God and a love of His Son and what He has done (and continues to do) for us.
Sometimes, it's interesting to see how the other half lives...
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 6/10/2008 10:10:17 AM >
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 6/10/2008 10:37:24 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 891
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
I do not require any intercessor but Christ Himself, I do not need someone who claims to be part of a oft-straying line back to Peter to have a relationship with Him. My response to something like this is that we are Scripturally instructed the concept of "Church" and that this is from where we get our instruction and in which we come together to worship God. For Catholics, the Pope is the voice of that authority, vested by Jesus in the institution, for the purposes of guarding and defining faith and its practice for the faithful. I know Christ through the Church and its instruction and practices, and the Pope is my Church's leader and voice.
Until Jesus comes back to us in person and is standing before us, this is the best that I can do - to follow the instructions He left the Apostles, some of which was written down for our benefit and enlightenment, but all of which was deposited in the Church.
To abandon this notion of Church for solely discerning faith from an interpretation of Scriptures not checked against some collective or institutional authority, is to abandon some of Jesus's instructions to us, in my opinion.
To say that Catholics believe that their salvation lay through anything or anyone other than Jesus is to mis-speak. However, to accept Jesus is to accept the entirety of His instruction to the Apostles, and not just the parts that were written down, and not just the parts that we rationalize are the "meat and potatoes", or however else you want to describe the idea of self-discernment.
In my time here, I have come to understand that Catholics and Protestants view "Church" entirely differently, in way that I have never appreciated before. This view of authority and the disciplining and subordination of one's self-interests and agendas to someone else's is a major difference - maybe even the most major of differences.
How can anyone not read their own agenda into their own discernment? We see the world through spectacles colored by our own judgment and experience. I believe that this makes us quite myopic for anything that would be for the purposes of changing us and forming us. I cite as an example that top athletes have coaches, as people seem to do better taking authoritative instruction from someone more gifted when endeavoring to achieve improvement in performance through change in routine and exercise.
How is faith any different? The Church should provide us with these resources - the "big toes" or what ever you want to call them within the Body of Christ that should assist us. In your case, it might be your pastor (hopefully, it is your pastor), so I don't think Protestants are entirely uncomfortable with the idea of coaching, and assenting to authority for the purposes of change and improvement.
In my case, my Pastor is the coach - he takes his cues as to content from the Bishop, who is responsible for teaching and instruction - the instructor of the coaches.
The Pope is the lead Bishop. He makes sure all the Bishops are teaching consistently and attempts to deal with those who are not.
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 6/10/2008 10:45:18 AM >
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 6/10/2008 10:39:30 AM
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Odeliya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
A Catholic reply to the nobility - built in 1873.
Oh, Dh, thank you. How breathtakingly beautiful. That is what i surely admire in CC - incredible cathedrals and wonderful solemn Masses and services. I almost cry when there and i am not easy to impress with religious stuff..
I second your suggestion to attend one - everybody should try visiting a catholic mass especially at a nice, big Church. Sensual and highly spiritual experience. I know, i am vain but those churches are so indescribably pretty.
Especially it's nice to visit them as being not catholic - sort of all you feel the beauty and God and yet, praise Lord, you know RC is not the boss of you.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 6/10/2008 10:47:46 AM
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Odeliya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
a challenge - can you name the "bad" Popes? How many Popes have there been? What percentage of them have been "bad"?
One hair on the head is not enough. One hair in a bowl of soup is too much ...
Even one lame Pope is enough to totally embarrass the whole institution And there were way , way more then one sheer Evil Pope.
But, as saying goes, having Pope is important and good - Even people in Hell will have a few Popes among them 
Really, Dh i respect you, dont use such tactic of denial of the obvious. You put yourself in questionable, dubious position to say the least...
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 6/10/2008 10:49:52 AM
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Doghouse
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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but those churches are so indescribably pretty. The pictures do not do them justice. In the case of Salisbury, I was there with a friend of mine (golfing vacation/business trip), and we arrived as people were gathering for the service Sunday morning (on our way out to Stonehenge and Old Sarum - both in the vicinity). There's no "parking lot" - this is Europe, so everyone is walking up from everywhere in the village of Salisbury, in their Sunday best attire, serious and somber. I mean it was just the highest of high Church. I was so moved by this procession of people up to the service that I couldn't even bring myself to take pictures - I thought it would just be vulgar and insulting, all at the same time. I assumed that after service was a very social event with a lot of fellowship, but not before. Everybody definitely had their "game face" on.
We visited Arundel Cathedral during the week - I did not attend Mass there. The Church is located literally right across the avenue up the hill from Arundel Castle
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Especially it's nice to visit them as being not catholic - sort of all you feel the beauty and God and yet, praise Lord, you know RC is not the boss of you. I am chuckling as I read this. You certainly have a a way of cutting my dialog down to size...
Some of us may just be more comfortable with a boss in this area, rather than being a self-employed entrepreneur...
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 6/10/2008 11:09:56 AM >
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When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 6/10/2008 11:16:48 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 891
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
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And there were way , way more then one sheer Evil Pope. How many? Three? Four?
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Even one lame Pope is enough to totally embarrass the whole institution...dont use such tactic of denial of the obvious. You put yourself in questionable, dubious position to say the least... If we solely judge Christianity based on the sanctity of its ministry, none of us would be any type of Christian - Catholic or Protestant. So the dubious position...is the one you are occupying, in my opinion.
The point I was trying to make above is that people are comfortable quoting what they have heard, without necessarily having the facts at hand. I was just rying to see if we could put the facts on the table for the sake of discussion...
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Really, Dh i respect you And I you...however, if you knew me in person, I think you might find me to be quite unaffected, which some find very frustrating (I have a friend who tells me I have a highly functional form of autism).
About the only person in this life who I have allowed under my skin is my lovely wife of 24 years...
So...I say what I think and what I believe. You are free to disagree. And I lose no sleep at night over it. We all cower behind avatars and user names here anyway; this promotes a kind of discussion that doesn't happen in person sometimes. It has nothing to do with respect, but is promoted by anonimity.
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 6/10/2008 11:26:12 AM >
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 6/10/2008 12:14:16 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1433
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: online
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No worries there. It is indeed you who are mistaken on the instruction of the Church in this regard...
Well, I guess then I need a Catholic to be the "English interpreter of English" on some of what he said then (go Steve Taylor song). My family is a bit useless on it, as they are Marian cultists for the most part.
John Paul II's personal motto (as embroidered on his robes) was "Totus Tuus Sum Maria", which means "I'm all yours, Mary".
On May 13, 1991, the ten-year anniversary of his attempted assassination, John Paul II was in Fatima to thank Mary for saving his life again, as reported by the NY Times: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CEFD7173BF937A25756C0A967958260
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As a challenge - can you name the "bad" Popes? How many Popes have there been? What percentage of them have been "bad"?
Well, there are varying degrees of "bad", but I'll list all the ones I know about.
John XII, who gave land to his mistress, murdered a bunch of people, turned a basilica into a brothel, and eventually was killed by the man who caught him committing adultery with his wife.
Benedict IX, sold the papacy (twice) and was sexually active
Urban VI tortured people and complained about there not being enough screaming involved.
Clement VII got Rome sacked due to his political machinations
Sergius III had his predecessors strangled and had an illegitimate child with one of the daughters of the major families that supported him, who later became Pope himself (John XI)
Alexander VI with his 4 illegitimate children, one of whom he made an Archbishop of Valencia when he was 17.
Leo X, who sold indulgences, spent lavishly, and may have been a homosexual
Stephen VI exhumed the body of his predecessor to put him on trial.
"Antipope" John XXIII was accused of rape, murder, piracy, and incest
Julius II set his his coronation time by astrological calculations and had at least one illegitimate daughter, he also bribed his way into the papacy in the first place
These are just the ones I know.
The percentage of bad popes is really pretty much inconsequential to my point. My point is that if you're claiming direct apostolic succession from Peter, the Holy Spirit must be involved. Just ONE bad, unbelieving, corrupt, depraved Pope is plenty to indicate a break a line of succession, when it's a spiritual line.
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There are certainly some that recognize them (canonize them), and in this venerate and honor (or honour) them. These that do are among the original Reformed denominations. I believe this is a practice that many have drifted away from over the years - to their detriment. There is a thread running for that discussion, however.
There's a difference between honoring someone and praying to them. We honor dead guys like George Washington in this country for what they did while they were alive, but that does not mean we pray to them or believe them to have any sort of special powers.
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My wish for you is that the next time you attend Mass with your relatives, try to forget Catholic/Protestant, and just enjoy being with a bunch of people who love God, through Jesus, as much as you do, and try to think about the Mass being a venue to give thanks and praise to God for all the wonderful things He does for us all the time. Entertain God with your participation. Process up with Parishioners during Communion with your arms crossed in front of your chest and accept the blessing and prayer offered for you by the Priest, Deacon or Lay Minister administering the Eucharist.
It may just change the way you think and participate in your own worship services in your own chosen Church.
I was at a Mass a couple years ago, actually. It was in English so I enjoyed it (I've never been terribly fond of the Latin masses, as I, and apparently those around me, have no clue of what was actually being said.) I have always participated in the parts that had to do with praising God. I abstain from the parts praising Mary. I don't partake in Communion because I haven't been Confirmed and don't intend to be.
Catholic services are lovely. I just hold issues with some of their theology, and I have no desire to submit to a Pope.
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Tell your relatives that this Catholic said that they should go to Saturday evening vigil Mass once in a while, and then attend services with you on Sunday. I do this at least every other month with people I am friends with (so yes, the opinons I have formed are from actual experiences, not from prejudice...), because it really supports the personal relationships I have with them, and from a sellfish point of view, I geniunely enjoy the fellowship with them in this type of setting, as well. I am a person of faith, and it may not be exactly their faith, but we share a belief in God and a love of His Son and what He has done (and continues to do) for us.
We live rather far away from our relatives at this point, so that's difficult to do these days.
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The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 6/10/2008 12:36:22 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1433
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: online
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My response to something like this is that we are Scripturally instructed the concept of "Church" and that this is from where we get our instruction and in which we come together to worship God. For Catholics, the Pope is the voice of that authority, vested by Jesus in the institution, for the purposes of guarding and defining faith and its practice for the faithful. I know Christ through the Church and its instruction and practices, and the Pope is my Church's leader and voice.
Well, sure, as Scripture says, we should be "not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together" (Heb 10:25). But Jesus also said that "Wherever two or three are gathered together in My name, there am I in the midst of them" (Mt 18:20). No mention of what the "church" has to look like, no statement that it must say "RCC" on the front door. No statement that you must be submitted to some sort of Pope. Just that you be there in Jesus' name.
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Until Jesus comes back to us in person and is standing before us, this is the best that I can do - to follow the instructions He left the Apostles, some of which was written down for our benefit and enlightenment, but all of which was deposited in the Church.
To abandon this notion of Church for solely discerning faith from an interpretation of Scriptures not checked against some collective or institutional authority, is to abandon some of Jesus's instructions to us, in my opinion.
The problem is that in my opinion, the RCC has become corrupted by a series of people who were more concerned with their own power and pleasure. As a result, the best I can do is rely on the things that the actual Apostles actually wrote, and consider anything that is part of "Tradition" but conflicts with what the actual Apostles wrote to be in error. I trust the written, God-inspired words of the actual Apostles over 2,000 years of self-motivated Popes playing telephone.
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To say that Catholics believe that their salvation lay through anything or anyone other than Jesus is to mis-speak. However, to accept Jesus is to accept the entirety of His instruction to the Apostles, and not just the parts that were written down, and not just the parts that we rationalize are the "meat and potatoes", or however else you want to describe the idea of self-discernment.
This doesn't appear to have worked well, though. For instance, people just a few centuries ago were absolutely convinced that the Pope was right in selling indulgences as "get out of Purgatory free" cards. You, and your church, now realize that that was a mistake. There are plenty of other policies that have gone this way as well. As such, I can't justify a trust in a "tradition" that seems rather shaky and dependent on how the heirarchy "feels" at the moment (and whether or not they really need money).
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In my time here, I have come to understand that Catholics and Protestants view "Church" entirely differently, in way that I have never appreciated before. This view of authority and the disciplining and subordination of one's self-interests and agendas to someone else's is a major difference - maybe even the most major of differences.
How can anyone not read their own agenda into their own discernment? We see the world through spectacles colored by our own judgment and experience. I believe that this makes us quite myopic for anything that would be for the purposes of changing us and forming us. I cite as an example that top athletes have coaches, as people seem to do better taking authoritative instruction from someone more gifted when endeavoring to achieve improvement in performance through change in routine and exercise.
How is faith any different? The Church should provide us with these resources - the "big toes" or what ever you want to call them within the Body of Christ that should assist us. In your case, it might be your pastor (hopefully, it is your pastor), so I don't think Protestants are entirely uncomfortable with the idea of coaching, and assenting to authority for the purposes of change and improvement.
In my case, my Pastor is the coach - he takes his cues as to content from the Bishop, who is responsible for teaching and instruction - the instructor of the coaches.
The Pope is the lead Bishop. He makes sure all the Bishops are teaching consistently and attempts to deal with those who are not.
Well, we subordinate ourselves to Christ. We expect the Holy Spirit will convict us if we are following our own agenda over God's. We also subordinate ourselves to the Scripture. We see our faith as a relationship with Christ, with Him as the leader. We also submit ourselves to the authority of theologians such as our pastors, but we do not expect any human to be infallible in this, so we check against what is in Scripture to be sure that our authorities are on the right path. The idea of submitting to a human authority and not checking that authority against what God says is a scary thought for us, for we know too well how fallible humans are. The Protestant Reformation was a direct result of people finally checking what the corrupt Popes were saying against what the Bible says. And, since the Pope would not allow his personal agenda to be challenged by the Truth of God, the Protestants had to leave.
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The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 6/10/2008 12:41:32 PM
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martyfran
Posts: 546
Joined: 7/17/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
There's a difference between honoring someone and praying to them. We honor dead guys like George Washington in this country for what they did while they were alive, but that does not mean we pray to them or believe them to have any sort of special powers.
Of course, if we thought that the saints had powers on their own, then you might have a point. But of course, the only power a saint has is to pray to God on our behalf. Just as a fellow Christian might pray to God on our behalf.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 6/10/2008 1:01:24 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1433
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: online
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That alone still implies the power to hear us despite the fact that they're dead, or if you would prefer, "not here, and not available by phone, mail, or IM".
Even if I think my living friend Bob is the most Christian guy I know, I still can't kneel by my bed and say "hey Bob, could you pray with me on this?" I have to contact Bob, either by going to see him, sending him a note, calling him, IM'ing him, or the like.
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