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RE: Worship Statues? - 3/18/2008 10:49:18 AM
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Cloak
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Being a Cosmopolitan Christian, I am in a position to answer this question in an unbiased, impartial and truthful way.
This misunderstanding is caused by Misinterpretation of the Bible. In Roman Catholic churches, the usage of statues and relics simply stands as a symbol for say the Lord Jesus Christ, the Holy Virgin Mary, a particular saint etc. It does not mean that Catholics are worshiping statues or relics or the like.
When I kiss a statue or an icon of Jesus or Mary or any saint, I don't feel guilty; I am filled with joy, passion, faith. It's like when you love someone, don't you like/love to have picture of them?
Living in an area that is predominantly Roman Catholics, When I pass by a Church that has the statue of Jesus outside, I stop, take a break and can't help but worship Him, thank Him, praise Him. I can't help...but admire the beauty of Jesus, His gentle and romantic eyes, His unconditional love...a love I have never had from any other human being. 
When I visit a Catholic country/area, I am mesmerized by the beauty and the boldness of Christian faith manifestation. Almost in every corner, you have a grotto of the Holy virgin or the a saint etc. I know that sadly, that is not necessarily the case, but it still touches my heart at the beauty of the Christian heritage museums in the streets.
I honestly don't see anything wrong with that. I know it's not easy being myself brought up in Protestant Sunday School where we had our meetings in small house, had no pictures or relics of Jesus or Mary or the other personalities in the Bible apart from what our teacher put on that suede blackboards for our biblical stories.
I know some people interpret the Bible in a literal legalistic way and here is when the problem starts, that's why we have to be Very careful and remember that the Bible was translated from Hebrew and Greek and when something is translated, it loses many of its originality.
So we need to respect other Christian denominations and practice some empathy and love toward them. 
< Message edited by Cloak -- 3/18/2008 11:24:43 AM >
_____________________________
And My God shall meet ALL Your Needs according to His glorious riches in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 4: 19)
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RE: Worship Statues? - 3/18/2008 6:18:27 PM
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Papa-san
Posts: 1012
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quote:
I know some people interpret the Bible in a literal legalistic way and here is when the problem starts, that's why we have to be Very careful and remember that the Bible was translated from Hebrew and Greek and when something is translated, it loses many of its originality.
I would agree about this, except for the fact that God Himself promises that He will preserve His word perfectly for all of us. What you believe states clearly that you do not believe that God is who He says He is, nor that He can do what He promised us He would do... NOT a place I'd be comfortable standing...
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Worship Statues? - 3/18/2008 9:02:21 PM
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Cloak
Posts: 4139
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From: Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
quote:
I know some people interpret the Bible in a literal legalistic way and here is when the problem starts, that's why we have to be Very careful and remember that the Bible was translated from Hebrew and Greek and when something is translated, it loses many of its originality.
I would agree about this, except for the fact that God Himself promises that He will preserve His word perfectly for all of us. What you believe states clearly that you do not believe that God is who He says He is, nor that He can do what He promised us He would do... NOT a place I'd be comfortable standing...
Even with the best God/human intentions....Errors/Sins are NOT infallible. 
God is faithful ALWAYS and He wants us to learn the Bible in its original languages (Hebrew & Greek), that's why I am planning, God willing, to embark on a study of Biblical Hebrew.
Ideally, when God created the world, people spoke one language which I believe is the Hebrew Language. However, at the tower of Babel, due to people's arrogance, God confused folks there and each started to speak different dialect and then these accents turned into languages.
Man's sin and Arrogance caused all this confusion and multi languages we have nowadays. 
From the beginning, God intended to us to lead a simple life where we all speak One Single language. Sadly due to arrogance and conceit, God had to punish people.
I believe the best Biblical version to help you discern the meaning in its Hebrew or Greek language is the Amplified Bible. So get a copy of the Bible of this version.
All this have been caused...by Human SIN, NOT by God!
I hope my post was helpful in explaining your inquiry Papa-san.
Blessings!
< Message edited by Cloak -- 3/19/2008 4:39:47 PM >
_____________________________
And My God shall meet ALL Your Needs according to His glorious riches in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 4: 19)
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RE: Worship Statues? - 3/20/2008 8:31:48 PM
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Papa-san
Posts: 1012
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I have a highly worn Amplified Bible, as well as a worn out copy of the Textus Receptus. (Greek Text)
What I believe is what God says in Psalms 12:6&7 - "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. 7Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."
To me, that sounds like a promise. I have been led to believe fully that God not only CAN keep His promises, but WILL keep them. With this understanding, there is no other thing for me to believe than that He has done just that... Try as they might, humans are NOT going to be able to foil His plan.
The last 2000 years are rife with examples of peoples' inhumanity and injustices to other people. Yet through it all, there is no reason to think that God has failed to keep His promise. His Word will be as accurate as He wants it to be in whatever language He chooses to have it translated into.
The stance that you speak of is one that has to be perpetuated by the Orthodox churches because if they were to teach that God has kept His promise, they would have to openly admit that their popes really are not infallible, and their house of cards would crumble... There are WAY too many jobs and too large a revenue stream at stake to do this... Stuck between the proverbial Rock and hard place, so the best choice (only choice if you are in the thick of it) is just to stay the course, no matter the consequences. Then it's just a matter of trying to keep people from realizing the dichotomy, which is much easier than explaining it once it's discovered.
In an organization that teaches it's people from infancy to never question the authority of the pope, bishop, cardinal, or priest, you don't ever give much thought to the truth of this revelation. "It's not what my priest said, so it's not true." Far be it from them to think: "The priest didn't say it, but God did..." It's just unheard of.
So, in the context of this thread, if the priest (pope, bishop, what-have-you) says its OK to kneel before a statue of Mary and offer faithful, worshipful prayers to her, expecting it to actually result in some real result, then we don't need to worry about the fact that GOD said NOT to do this...
What's wrong with that picture?
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Worship Statues? - 4/5/2008 8:36:02 PM
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Yoelnatan780
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SaintJVMan
quote:
ORIGINAL: Les
quote:
ORIGINAL: GoodME
quote:
Maybe its time that we stopped seeing people by the denominations that we label each other with, if we recognised each other by the Christ within us then we just see Christians....not Catholics and protestants.
If I may volunteer this - Roman Ctaholics are not supposed to see people as "denominations", only those that are in full communion with the ROman Catholic Church ans those who are not.
Thus, the practice of Faith is a sliding scale of "shades of gray" from "none" to "full".
And - most important - the test of any practice of Faith should be the fruits it produces from the Faithful to their surroundings.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Then GoodME why can we not just see Christians and forget about Catholics and Protestants?.............. two people in full communion with Christ , will always be in communion with each other no matter what church they worship at.
The issue comes down to love, as a Catholic I believe that every church and or religion has at least some of the Truth some have more and some have less but all have some. Further I believe that the Catholic Church founded by Christ has the fullness of Truth in this way I can desire in love that we obey Christ’s prayer for unity, without denying that those whom I speak with share in the Truth, if not the fullness thereof.
I believe you claim to be catholic, but isn't that (avotar) an orthodox icon, and if so why are you using it, I thought these two traditions were very differing
_____________________________
elôi elôi lama sabachthani o estin methermçneuomenon o theos mou o theos mou eis ti enkatelipes me
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RE: Worship Statues? - 4/6/2008 10:04:54 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2609
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Cloak
Being a Cosmopolitan Christian, I am in a position to answer this question in an unbiased, impartial and truthful way.
This misunderstanding is caused by Misinterpretation of the Bible. In Roman Catholic churches, the usage of statues and relics simply stands as a symbol for say the Lord Jesus Christ, the Holy Virgin Mary, a particular saint etc. It does not mean that Catholics are worshiping statues or relics or the like.
Why does this matter if Christ is ALREADY in us ?
quote:
When I kiss a statue or an icon of Jesus or Mary or any saint, I don't feel guilty; I am filled with joy, passion, faith. It's like when you love someone, don't you like/love to have picture of them?
Are you exhausted by traveling from cemetary to cemetary kissing the headstones of saints ?quote:
Living in an area that is predominantly Roman Catholics, When I pass by a Church that has the statue of Jesus outside,
AGAIN, the emphasis is Jesus on the inside of us...
quote:
When I visit a Catholic country/area, I am mesmerized by the beauty and the boldness of Christian faith manifestation. Almost in every corner, you have a grotto of the Holy virgin or the a saint etc. I know that sadly, that is not necessarily the case, but it still touches my heart at the beauty of the Christian heritage museums in the streets.
Rich in the Catholic tradition for sure !!! Unfortunately, Jesus is NOT pre-eminent 
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
If Jesus Christ came back today and saw what was being done in his name, he'd never stop throwing up.
Woody Allen
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RE: Worship Statues? - 5/10/2008 2:41:48 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 528
Joined: 4/16/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MichiganCatholic
Papa-san,
I am glad that you were able to deepen your relationship with Christ and saddened that it was not my faith that made it possible. No doubt your experience is a common one. I study the Scriptures and find that it confirms my faith, but I know that is not always the case. I am saddened when I hear people say that they were Catholic, until they read the Bible. Where were the Catholics in there life teaching them about their faith and the treasure that is the Word of God? This is a failing on the Catholic Church's part.
Hello MichiganCatholic
Yes it is a big failing. When I was Catholic, I did read the bible, but blindly. I was so traditionalist it was not funny. I only read the bible through the eyes of the Catholic Church. I only read scriptures that "seemed" to justify praying to Mary, and justifying images. I barely read the gospels, and even if I did, it was still flawed. Why? Because much of my devotional life was centered on Mary, praying to her all the time, and even when I did, I had no assurance of salvation. No assurance. And not only that, even when I was sticking up for the practices and defending them , I knew something was wrong. Deep down, something was wrong. I know now that was the Holy Spirit convicting me, but I didn't know then. A couple of people came into my life and helped me out, helped me start to read the bible more with an open mind towards the scriptures. And that is why I am not Catholic anymore. The scriptures do not justify praying to images. That is flat out idolatry.
I am not against Art though, for I am Lutheran and we hold a very high honor for the cross. But we don't bow down and worship it and kiss it and stuff like that. Some Lutherans wear crucifixes, but again, still, we do not kiss the necklaces and all the superstitious stuff Catholics do.
I also do not like the attitude some Evangelical Protestants hold either. Some of them say, if you even have a picture of Jesus, or wearing a cross necklace for example, you are committing idolatry. I think that is going too far. Once the person starts to hold that the necklace has power and stuff, and kisses it, then it is idolatry. But not if you are jsut wearing it. Or if you have a picture in your house just to look at.
I think there has to be a balance. I don't believe Christian Art is a sin, but if you start to believe the Art has power, and you actually start to hold some superstitious beliefs about the art, then you are committing idolatry. And if you bow down to a statue and pray before it, that is obvious. That is idolatry. And that is where the Catholics, and Eastern Orthodox, fall short.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Worship Statues? - 6/6/2008 1:36:58 PM
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onerock
Posts: 20
Joined: 6/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
quote:
ORIGINAL: MichiganCatholic
Papa-san,
I am glad that you were able to deepen your relationship with Christ and saddened that it was not my faith that made it possible. No doubt your experience is a common one. I study the Scriptures and find that it confirms my faith, but I know that is not always the case. I am saddened when I hear people say that they were Catholic, until they read the Bible. Where were the Catholics in there life teaching them about their faith and the treasure that is the Word of God? This is a failing on the Catholic Church's part.
Hello MichiganCatholic
Yes it is a big failing. When I was Catholic, I did read the bible, but blindly. I was so traditionalist it was not funny. I only read the bible through the eyes of the Catholic Church. I only read scriptures that "seemed" to justify praying to Mary, and justifying images. I barely read the gospels, and even if I did, it was still flawed. Why? Because much of my devotional life was centered on Mary, praying to her all the time, and even when I did, I had no assurance of salvation. No assurance. And not only that, even when I was sticking up for the practices and defending them , I knew something was wrong. Deep down, something was wrong. I know now that was the Holy Spirit convicting me, but I didn't know then. A couple of people came into my life and helped me out, helped me start to read the bible more with an open mind towards the scriptures. And that is why I am not Catholic anymore. The scriptures do not justify praying to images. That is flat out idolatry.
I am not against Art though, for I am Lutheran and we hold a very high honor for the cross. But we don't bow down and worship it and kiss it and stuff like that. Some Lutherans wear crucifixes, but again, still, we do not kiss the necklaces and all the superstitious stuff Catholics do.
I also do not like the attitude some Evangelical Protestants hold either. Some of them say, if you even have a picture of Jesus, or wearing a cross necklace for example, you are committing idolatry. I think that is going too far. Once the person starts to hold that the necklace has power and stuff, and kisses it, then it is idolatry. But not if you are jsut wearing it. Or if you have a picture in your house just to look at.
I think there has to be a balance. I don't believe Christian Art is a sin, but if you start to believe the Art has power, and you actually start to hold some superstitious beliefs about the art, then you are committing idolatry. And if you bow down to a statue and pray before it, that is obvious. That is idolatry. And that is where the Catholics, and Eastern Orthodox, fall short.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
Hello Jessica,
I just wanted to ask for clarification from you regarding your statements above which I highlighted in blue.
I just wanted to ask you the following questions:
Where is it in stated in the Bible that if you kiss and/or bow down to something, you are automatically worshipping that thing as if it were God?
Is the very act of kissing something inherently equal to worshipping that something as if it were Almighty God?
Is the act of bowing down to something and praying to it equal to worshipping that something as if it were our Lord?
By the way, allow me to share the etymology of the word "Pray" and its historical meaning. Remember, "pray" is not an original english word. See the Quote below. I got it from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary. You may want to checkout the link to the definition below.
quote:
Pray
Etymology:
Middle English, from Anglo-French prier, praer, preier, from Latin precari, from prec-, prex request, prayer; akin to Old High German frāga question, frāgēn to ask, Sanskrit pṛcchati he asks
Date:
13th century
Definition: Pray
Allow me also to share a portion of a very informative article written by Steve Ray, titled "Mary, Saints, Worship and Salvation".
Hope this will clarify some things for you.
quote:
Worship is a word that needs to be understood if we are to delve into this topic in any meaningful way. Understanding that there are differing “levels” of respect to be given to others and to God, the Catholic has carefully defined their terms. One is to honor God but also honor their father and mother. Leviticus 19:32 “You will stand up in the presence of gray hair, you will honour the person of the aged and fear your God.” The Israelites who worship God alone are commanded to show a level of honor by rising to their feet in the presence of gray-haired and aged men. This “standing up” is a sign of respect and honor but is not confused with the command in the same verse to “fear your God”. They also fall down on their faces in front of the king. Consider David and King Saul: “David arose and went out of the cave and called after Saul, saying, “My lord the king!” And when Saul looked behind him, David bowed with his face to the ground and prostrated himself” (1 Sam 24:8).
The average American may assume, if they are not aware of ancient customs and protocol that David might actually be worshiping Saul. But far be it from the heart of David to worship a man, even though he calls him “Lord” and prostrates himself on the ground before him. One falls on their face before God, but also before the King but the actions of the heart are quite distinct in either case.
You may click on the link below for the complete article.
Mary, Saints, Worship and Salvation
God Bless!
onerock
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RE: Worship Statues? - 6/7/2008 3:34:15 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 528
Joined: 4/16/2007
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Hello onerock!
I clearly said I am not against art. But you have to admit there is a LOT of superstition in the Catholic Church. Like, if you kiss the Brown Scapular 500 times, you get a special blessing. I remember, I used to do all that. There is also this medal, a St Benedict Medal, that if you wear it, you automatically are given indulgences.
Catholics do believe there is spiritual power in their images. That is clearly idolatry. To act as if a piece of clay has spiritual power, that is worshipping the image.
That is truly not the same as a person prostrating himself before a king. In some cultures, prostrating is very frequent, especially in Asian cultures. It's a sign of respect. But there is no way in their mind that that person has spiritual power. That is exactly how Catholics treat their images, they believe the statues and certain types of jewelry to have spiritual power.
Soli Deo Gloria!
Jessica
< Message edited by JesKlu -- 6/7/2008 3:41:08 PM >
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Worship Statues? - 6/8/2008 1:16:51 AM
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onerock
Posts: 20
Joined: 6/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
Hello onerock!
I clearly said I am not against art.
...
Soli Deo Gloria!
Jessica
Hello Jessica,
Just a clarification: I did not question your acceptance or none acceptance of the use of religious art. You were very clear in your earlier post about that and I understood that.
My question to you was about some of your statements which made the assertion that the very act of bowing down, kissing, or praying to something are inherently acts of worshipping that something as God.
quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
...if you bow down to a statue and pray before it, that is obvious. That is idolatry.
The question again is this:
If you bow down before something (lets say a Bible, an image, etc.), does that mean you are worshipping that something as God?
If you kiss something (a Bible, an image, a loved one, etc), does that mean you are honoring that bible, image or loved one as if they were Almighty God?
quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
...
Catholics do believe there is spiritual power in their images. That is clearly idolatry. To act as if a piece of clay has spiritual power, that is worshipping the image.
...
Soli Deo Gloria!
Jessica
Question:
1. If Catholics believe there is spiritual power in their images, do they believe that this power is coming from the image itself so that they can already do away with the true God? (Isn't that what idolatry is, doing away with the true God by replacing Him with a false god?)
You are again making the equation that if a person believes a piece of clay (or image, or something...) has spiritual powers then that person is already worshipping that image as if were taking the place of the one true God in his heart.
How would you explain this biblical fact as mentioned in Acts 19:11~12?
quote:
<Acts 19:11~12> 11 God was performing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were even carried from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out.
Were the early christians who believed these aprons and handkerchiefs had spiritual powers (because these items touched the body or hands of St.Paul) already worshipping these items and doing away with God in their heart?
quote:
<Matt 9:20~22> 20 And a woman who had been suffering from a hemorrhage for twelve years, came up behind Him and touched the fringe of His cloak; 21 for she was saying to herself, "If I only touch His garment, I will get well." 22 But Jesus turning and seeing her said, "Daughter, take courage; your faith has made you well." At once the woman was made well.
Question: Was this woman already worshipping the garment as if it were a god (or an idol) because she believed that if she could only touch His garment, she will get well?
Allow me to emphasize the question again:
If Catholics believe there is spiritual power in their images, saint relics, etc; do they believe that this power is coming from the image or relic itself so that they can already do away with the one true God?
I think you need to reconsider your understanding of what idolatry actually is.
God Bless!
onerock
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RE: Worship Statues? - 6/8/2008 6:43:36 PM
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Papa-san
Posts: 1012
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline
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Onerock,
I'd challenge you to re-evaluate your understanding of idolatry as well.
It's not an all or nothing, on/off, black/white thing... Just because I believe my St. Christopher medal actually has the power to keep me safe doesn't mean that I have completely turned my back on God. It simply means that I was taught that this trinket has the power to protect. (Odd, because I was never taught anything about the saint himself which is supposedly how it does it's thing...)
Idolatry is when someone believes that something other than God Himself can make any kind of impact in the spiritual realm. It's really that simple... A person doesn't necessarily have to 'worship' it to make it idolatry. The belief I had in that medallion was idolatry. It didn't matter whether or not I had been taught about the saint either. The belief that he is somehow able to create any kind of real influence is idolatry. Belief that this 'Christopher' fellow is going to God with my request for safety in travel qualifies it as such.
Scripture doesn't tell me to do this. What it instructs is that I am to go directly to the Father through the Son. No other instruction is given. Nothing else is acceptable according to God. Nowhere does He tell us to go to Mary or anyone else. It doesn't matter what form this idol comes in; painting, tiny medallion, huge marble statue, or mental image. All are idols. When a person goes before an image of Mary or some other saint with the belief that doing this will somehow influence God, is committing idolatry.
So, some may ask why I say all of this in a thread entitled 'Worship' Statues. If you aren't really 'worshiping' statues (medals, paintings, whatever), what difference does it make? Well, the concern is in how the unsaved see those actions. It seems that the Catholic mindset in this regard is profoundly selfish... That has been exhibited numerous times when certain of them have asked me what difference it makes what those people see... Most of us Protestants understand quite clearly the damage it does for the unsaved/un-churched to see this kind of thing... We know that it is telling them it's OK to 'worship' whatever non-God thing they want to... It's a matter of perception, and God tells us that it matters. The only time we should be acknowledging anything like it is when we observe the lost doing something like it and use that as a tool to introduce them to Christ.
Your example from Matthew was that woman's faith that the 'man' who was actually wearing the garment in question was the one who had the power, not the garment in itself. The proper translation is "If I but touch His garment..." Meaning that she had to get no closer to Him for Him to heal her. Those who had the items 'blessed' by Paul were probably taught very clearly by him where the power to heal came from. He would have been the first one to tell them he had no power whatsoever on his own, nor did those items. The Catholic church teaches (by it's failure to correct) that it is these saints' representations that hold the power. When any correction is actually made, the teaching is anti-scriptural in that the teaching is that these saints and Mary will actually get something done if you ask it of them... God's word NEVER condones it...
< Message edited by Papa-san -- 6/8/2008 6:53:58 PM >
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Worship Statues? - 6/8/2008 7:26:15 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 528
Joined: 4/16/2007
Status: offline
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Hello onerock!
Maybe I should re-word what I said. Sure, bowing to something doesn't automatically mean worship, same as kissing, BUT it does make a bad impression on the un-churched/unbeliever as Papa-San said.
But if you pray to the statue, ask requests of it, or believe it has any type of spiritual power, then it is idolatry. For example, the St Christopher Medal. People put those medals in their cars believing St Christopher, through the medal, will protect them. That is flat out idolatry. When Catholics sell their houses, they bury a staute of St Joseph upside down believing if they do that, their house will sell. Again, that is believing an item has spiritual power, and therefore, is under the category of idolatry.
Soli Deo Gloria!
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Worship Statues? - 6/9/2008 7:58:33 AM
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onerock
Posts: 20
Joined: 6/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
Onerock,
I'd challenge you to re-evaluate your understanding of idolatry as well.
...
Idolatry is when someone believes that something other than God Himself can make any kind of impact in the spiritual realm. It's really that simple...A person doesn't necessarily have to 'worship' it to make it idolatry. The belief I had in that medallion was idolatry. It didn't matter whether or not I had been taught about the saint either. The belief that he is somehow able to create any kind of real influence is idolatry. Belief that this 'Christopher' fellow is going to God with my request for safety in travel qualifies it as such.
...
Hello Papa-san,
Your definition of idolatry is quite interesting but it is very much unhistorical and unbiblical.
You said "Idolatry is when someone believes that something other than God Himself can make any kind of impact in the spiritual realm." (It's really that simple, you say.)
Your definition asserts that no one or nothing other that God can make any kind of impact in the spiritual realm.
Question:
Historic Christianity teaches that Adam, when he made the first sin, he really did made an impact in the spiritual realm since his sinful action brought death to all men.
See Quotes below:
quote:
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin...
Rom 5:17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man...
Rom 5:19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners...
Based on your definition of idolatry, are you saying then that all those Christians (including St. Paul who wrote those verses above) who believed that Adam, thru his sin changed the spiritual order that God established when he created everything, are guilty of idolatry?
Thanks and God Bless!
onerock
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RE: Worship Statues? - 6/9/2008 11:05:51 AM
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Papa-san
Posts: 1012
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We all know that Satan makes many things happen in the spiritual realm, as well as angels (both good and bad). However, all of these were foreseen and or fore-ordained by God Himself. These things are spoken of clearly in Gods Word (as is Adam and his shortcomings).
Edited TOS 6
< Message edited by Kath -- 6/9/2008 10:23:36 PM >
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"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Worship Statues? - 6/9/2008 5:00:32 PM
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Lurker
Posts: 742
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Silver Spring, MD
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Yoelnatan780
I believe you claim to be catholic, but isn't that (avatar) an orthodox icon, and if so why are you using it, I thought these two traditions were very differing
Yes and no. Catholics do use icons. There's a large group of Catholics who worship the Lord using the same traditions and liturgy as the Eastern Orthodox. The main difference is that they're in communion with the pope. That said, many Roman Catholics themselves are finding inspiration and an appreciation of Eastern traditions. :)
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Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Worship Statues? - 6/9/2008 10:22:02 PM
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Kath
Posts: 16984
Joined: 2/28/2005
Status: online
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Lets stick to the topic, please. Starting a discussion on Adam would take this thread off topic. Thank you.
Sincerely
Kath
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RE: Worship Statues? - 6/11/2008 12:16:04 PM
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onerock
Posts: 20
Joined: 6/6/2008
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Hello Papa-san,
Hey, you were challenging me on my basic understanding of what idolatry is (doing away with the true God by replacing Him with a false god.); isn't it only fair that I also challenge you on your definition of what idolatry is?
Besides, our discussion on what idolatry is aligns well with the topic "Worship Statues?". Doesn't it?
Again, allow me to challenge your definition of idolatry:
You said:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
...
Idolatry is when someone believes that something other than God Himself can make any kind of impact in the spiritual realm. It's really that simple... A person doesn't necessarily have to 'worship' it to make it idolatry. The belief I had in that medallion was idolatry. It didn't matter whether or not I had been taught about the saint either. The belief that he is somehow able to create any kind of real influence is idolatry. Belief that this 'Christopher' fellow is going to God with my request for safety in travel qualifies it as such.
...When a person goes before an image of Mary or some other saint with the belief that doing this will somehow influence God, is committing idolatry.
...
Lets look at the following quotes from the writings of Paul in his epistles:
quote:
Rom 11:13~14
13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.
1 Cor 9:22
22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some.
1 Timothy 4:16
16 Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.
Question:
Does Paul really believe that he has the capability or power to save people (for heaven)?
Isn't it that God is the only one who can bring people to heaven?
(You said: I am to go directly to the Father through the Son. No other instruction is given. Nothing else is acceptable according to God.)
In his advice to Timothy, does he really believe that Timothy can actually save himself and his hearers? Isn't it that Jesus is our only Saviour?
Based on your definition of idolatry that to believe something other than God himself can make any kind of impact in the spiritual realm; Wouldn't Paul be guilty of idolatry since he believes that he can actually save people for heaven? Isn't he making himself equal to God?
According to your definition again, wouldn't Paul be guilty of idolatry since he is assuming that what he is doing (I have become all things to all people...) will somehow influence God to save those people?
(Did Paul really believe that his actions will actually influence God somehow?)
Thanks and God Bless!
onerock
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RE: Worship Statues? - 6/12/2008 1:54:33 AM
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Papa-san
Posts: 1012
Joined: 4/12/2006
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Absolutely not. One must read these scriptures in the proper context:
Paul had previously made it clear to his readers/hearers (presumably including Timothy, since he was Paul's spiritual son...) that it was all God's doing anyways.
Additionally, Paul was not deceased when he was passing on this knowledge... Unlike the saints and Mary. (The ones all these little statues (etc.) are modeled after.) This one little detail is the deal-breaker there!
Pretty easy to drive a truck through those holes...
< Message edited by Papa-san -- 6/12/2008 2:00:33 AM >
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Worship Statues? - 6/12/2008 12:46:10 PM
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onerock
Posts: 20
Joined: 6/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
Absolutely not. One must read these scriptures in the proper context:
Paul had previously made it clear to his readers/hearers (presumably including Timothy, since he was Paul's spiritual son...) that it was all God's doing anyways.
Additionally, Paul was not deceased when he was passing on this knowledge... Unlike the saints and Mary. (The ones all these little statues (etc.) are modeled after.) This one little detail is the deal-breaker there!
Pretty easy to drive a truck through those holes...
Hello Papa-san,
My questions to you in my previous post were too easy were they not?
But I don't think you answered my other question:
Did Paul really believe that his actions will actually influence God somehow to save people for heaven? (That would be idolatry, would it not?)
But anyway, I just wanted to thank you for accepting and validating the use of language as Paul did in his epistles where he is saying things as if Paul is claiming to have the capability and power to save people for heaven.
quote:
1 Cor 9:22
To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some.
Rom 11:13~14
13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.
(Hey, maybe we can suggest that such statesments of Paul in scripture be removed because it might do damage to the unsaved/un-churched to see this kind of thing... It might create a mental image in their mind that Paul is actually the Savior... Isn't that what reading does? Create mental pictures in the mind?)
Papa-san, do you now see the biblical and historical basis of the use of similar language you might encounter in the writings of other saints or in some official documents of the Catholic Church? (We are making some progress here, aren't we?)
You said it very well in your post that the important thing to consider is the proper context of the statements being made.
You also mentioned in your previous post that you know very little about the official teachings of the Catholic Church (regarding Mary, saints, statues?).
Have you exerted effort to learn more about the teachings of the Catholic Church so will know the proper, biblical context of some of its statements about Mary, Saints, Statues? (Are you sure that some statements that you hear from "catholics" are official teachings of the Church?)
These are some questions you may want to consider regarding our discussion about worship, statues, saints, etc. since I think you are really serious about this "proper context" thing.
Thanks and God Bless!
onerock
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RE: Worship Statues? - 6/14/2008 11:17:18 PM
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Papa-san
Posts: 1012
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: onerock
Hello Papa-san,
But I don't think you answered my other question:
Did Paul really believe that his actions will actually influence God somehow to save people for heaven? (That would be idolatry, would it not?)
No, that is not idolatry. Paul did really believe that his actions would make a difference in the spiritual world. I believe that my own actions do the same, as do yours...
God's word is pretty clear about the fact that we are supposed to pray to Him for one another. This is supposed to help influence God to move, thereby making a difference in the spirit world. However, once any of us have passed beyond this world, that is done. If it wasn't so, God would have included that in His word...
He tells us in His word to verify the teachings of others by comparing those teachings against scripture to see if they are true or not. Teachings and doctrines/dogmas that aren't included in scripture are heretical and therefore are invalid according to God Himself...
In regards to 'official' teachings, one needs to understand that a failure to correct un-biblical teaching is about the same as actually teaching it. There will be no excuses before God when He asks about this... I also believe that we must be concerned about how our actions will be seen by the unsaved...
< Message edited by Papa-san -- 6/14/2008 11:29:47 PM >
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Worship Statues? - 6/17/2008 11:41:57 AM
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onerock
Posts: 20
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
quote:
ORIGINAL: onerock
Hello Papa-san,
But I don't think you answered my other question:
Did Paul really believe that his actions will actually influence God somehow to save people for heaven? (That would be idolatry, would it not?)
No, that is not idolatry. Paul did really believe that his actions would make a difference in the spiritual world. I believe that my own actions do the same, as do yours...
...
...
...
Hello Papa-san,
Good to know that we have made a lot of progress in how you see idolatry since you are now making statements which actually contradict your very clear, very simple, and hard to misunderstand definition of it which you shared in your earlier post:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
...
Idolatry is when someone believes that something other than God Himself can make any kind of impact in the spiritual realm. It's really that simple... A person doesn't necessarily have to 'worship' it to make it idolatry. The belief I had in that medallion was idolatry. It didn't matter whether or not I had been taught about the saint either. The belief that he is somehow able to create any kind of real influence is idolatry. Belief that this 'Christopher' fellow is going to God with my request for safety in travel qualifies it as such.
...When a person goes before an image of Mary or some other saint with the belief that doing this will somehow influence God, is committing idolatry.
...
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Papa-san,
Allow me to question again some of the statements that you made in your latest post. (I am trying to compare them to scriptures to verify if they are true or not... That's what you require, right? And I also think this will help clarify further our discussion on Idolatry and/or "Worship of Statues" or Saints, etc..)
You said:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
...
God's word is pretty clear about the fact that we are supposed to pray to Him for one another. This is supposed to help influence God to move, thereby making a difference in | | |
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