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RE: Worship Statues? - 2/21/2006 10:46:10 AM
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1lightseeker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mike_McK
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1lightseeker
Mike_Mck,
We respect those who have passed on by remembering their actual presence with us by visual means. We Orthodox employ icons. It is similar to looking at a photo of a loved one who has gone to be with the Lord and kissing it or even talking to that person while we look at their representation.
We do it out of our love for them, God's love for them, and appreciation for their love for God and us.
Of course. There's nothing wrong with photos or memorials.
The problem comes when people start praying to the statues of dead people and worshipping the dead saints represented by them.
You'll find all the Catholics (I miss you Sdaw! - see his tribute folder in TheoHouse for an example of how we memorialize and talk to fellow-Christians who have departed and aren't worshipping them.), Orthodox, and even a Reformed Protestant, Theojunkie, denying that the statues are being worshipped in this very thread. There's another thread on praying to the saints.
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RE: Worship Statues? - 2/21/2006 11:56:43 AM
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bridgefin
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Mike_McK
quote:
The problem comes when people start praying to the statues of dead people and worshipping the dead saints represented by them.
Any Catholic who worships anyone other than God is seriously in error, possibly fatally so. Statues of saints bring to mind those followers of Christ who give us great example in following Him. We ask them to intercede on our behalf but we do not pray to them as you would pray to God. Seems like you misunderstand Catholic practice on this issue.
In Christ, George
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[Deleted] - 2/21/2006 1:30:10 PM
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RE: Worship Statues? - 2/21/2006 2:26:24 PM
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bridgefin
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Mike_McK
quote:
That is why I do not believe that the Roman Catholic church has the best interests of it's followers at heart for teaching them to do this.
The Catholic Church teaches its people to worship no one other than God. You misunderstand this Catholic practice.
quote:
Why are you contacting them at all when the Bible strictly condemns contacting the dead, much less praying to them?
We are not contacting them. We are asking them to pray for us. They cannot hear that request unless the Holy Spirit delivers it to them. Besides, did you not know that they are not dead but alive in Christ?
quote:
No, I understand it perfectly, thank you.
You havn't demonstrated anything but misunderstanding so far. But I'll keep watching.
In Christ, George
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RE: Worship Statues? - 2/21/2006 2:37:19 PM
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JoToP
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quote:
We are not contacting them. We are asking them to pray for us. They cannot hear that request unless the Holy Spirit delivers it to them. Besides, did you not know that they are not dead but alive in Christ?
When I read such passages, agreed by Protestant and Catholic alike as being Scripture inspired by God and ultimately authoritative, I rest assured that no man, and no counsel can trump this truth:
Hebrews 10:19-22 (ESV) Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, [20] by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, [21] and since we have a great priest over the house of God, [22] let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
Direct access to God through Christ who alone is our Mediator. God gave this to us brethren and no one, not Pope, prelate or counsel can take it from us. It is worth dying for.
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RE: Worship Statues? - 2/21/2006 2:48:49 PM
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Daylights_56
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mike_McK
Why are you contacting them at all when the Bible strictly condemns contacting the dead, much less praying to them?
Mike
I think you need to sit this one out until you do some serious study. You cant possibly give an intelligent opinion on something you clearly know nothing about. Here is a start
quote:
"No Contact with the dead"
Sometimes Fundamentalists object to asking our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us by declaring that God has forbidden contact with the dead in passages such as Deuteronomy 18:10–11. In fact, he has not, because he at times has given it—for example, when he had Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3). What God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits. "There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed" (Deut. 18:10–15).
God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; one is to look to God’s prophets instead. Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother’s grave, "Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I’m having a real problem right now." The difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one’s behalf.
The rest of of the web page here
http://www.catholic.com/library/praying_to_the_saints.asp
God Bless
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RE: Worship Statues? - 2/21/2006 2:51:08 PM
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unworthyseraphim
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Yes...Let us draw near...us doesn't exclude those who have gone before us in Christ.
The Church is one and death has no power to sunder the Body of Christ...and it is in relationship with our fellow members of that body living and reposed that we approach the Lord together.
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RE: Worship Statues? - 2/21/2006 3:00:36 PM
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JoToP
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Deut. 26:14 (ESV)
I have not eaten of the tithe while I was mourning, or removed any of it while I was unclean, or offered any of it to the dead. I have obeyed the voice of the Lord my God. I have done according to all that you have commanded me.
Isaiah 8:19 (ESV)
And when they say to you, "Inquire of the mediums and the necromancers who chirp and mutter," should not a people inquire of their God? Should they inquire of the dead on behalf of the living?
It is the Catholic who offers the increase to another than Christ himself who does not understand the true meaning of worship. All of the product of the Seed (the Word) belongs to God and only to God and to no other than God. This includes prayer. Prayer is not ours to direct as we see fit. Prayer is focused on God. This is the whole meaning behind the Nation, the City, and the Temple. There is no difference between inquiring of the mediums and praying to the saints. God and only God is our source of knowledge and God and only God is the direction of our prayers. Worship is delivering to God the fruit of his work within his people, our tithes, our prayers, our piety, our creeds, our hymns, our praise, our sermons, everything we do is a result of his Providence. He searches his people for fruit and that fruit is his and only his. No one is to come between our fruit and his judgment of us in grace.
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RE: Worship Statues? - 2/21/2006 3:08:01 PM
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Daylights_56
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JoToP
It is the Catholic who offers the increase to another than Christ himself who does not understand the true meaning of worship. All of the product of the Seed (the Word) belongs to God and only to God and to no other than God. This includes prayer. Prayer is not ours to direct as we see fit. Prayer is focused on God....
JoTop
So would you be against me asking a fellow christian to pray for me? Judging from your response, "Prayer is not ours to direct as we see fit" you would be against it. I am sorry to hear that, you will be in my prayers.
God Bless
BTW we should get back on topic. This discussion is about statue worship. There is another thread discussing praying to the saints and mary.
< Message edited by Daylights_56 -- 2/21/2006 3:15:25 PM >
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“It is no use walking anywhere to preach unless our walking is our preaching.” - St. Francis of Assisi
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RE: Worship Statues? - 2/21/2006 3:26:49 PM
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JoToP
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Daylights_56
JoTop
So would you be against me asking a fellow christian to pray for me? Judging from your response, "Prayer is not ours to direct as we see fit" you would be against it. I am sorry to hear that, you will be in my prayers.
God Bless
I can always use all the prayers I can get, but be sure and direct them to Christ for me. Your "logic" is flawed and without biblical foundation. There is not the slightest evidence that the dead in Christ can hear us speak to them. And even if they can, and remember that the case is irrelevent where the Holy Spirit has made no such revelation, do you think Christ is outside of the hearing? If indeed my father could hear my voi8ce or the silent call of my mind, why should I not direct my prayer to Christ who hears me with infinite clarity. This is biblical because the Spirit helps our infirmities in prayer and intercedes on behalf of the saints. I see no place for other people living or dead in this economy. Understand though, that when I ask someone to pray for me, I ask them to enter this economy.
You see, I do not think you understand the nature of prayer. It is the cry of those who want, who are weak and infirmed. I see nothing in Scripture that gives prayer to those who have been enabled and made perfect. Prayer, like faith and in the environment of faith, is the exercise of the lowly and poor in spirit. The dead in Christ enjoy his presence and reality. They do no exercise faith because they are in full knowledge and understanding. Prayer and faith are inseparable. In his presence is communion that transcends prayer. Prayer is for the men of earth.
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RE: Worship Statues? - 2/21/2006 3:37:19 PM
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Lurker
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Prayer is only for the weak? But one forgets that it can be used for praise and thanksgiving as well. The Psalms are full of prayers of need, praise, and thanksgiving.
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Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Worship Statues? - 2/21/2006 3:55:27 PM
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Daylights_56
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JoTop
As I indicated earlier this is not the thread to discuss this so I will leave you the same site I left mike:
quote:
Can They Hear Us?
One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!
In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.
http://www.catholic.com/library/praying_to_the_saints.asp
God Bless
_____________________________
“It is no use walking anywhere to preach unless our walking is our preaching.” - St. Francis of Assisi
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[Deleted] - 2/21/2006 5:53:28 PM
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[Deleted] - 2/21/2006 6:06:29 PM
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[Deleted] - 2/21/2006 6:08:25 PM
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RE: Worship Statues? - 2/21/2006 6:10:30 PM
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Daylights_56
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Mike
I see you still fail to understand.
Here is the link you are looking for
http://forums.crosswalk.com/Praying_to_the_Saints_%26_Mary%3f/m_1631/tm.htm
God Bless
< Message edited by Daylights_56 -- 2/21/2006 6:13:01 PM >
_____________________________
“It is no use walking anywhere to preach unless our walking is our preaching.” - St. Francis of Assisi
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[Deleted] - 2/21/2006 6:15:19 PM
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RE: Worship Statues? - 2/21/2006 7:21:29 PM
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Daylights_56
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Sorry Ps103 I tried
quote:
And notice that nowhere in this account do the disciples ever try to contact them.
How come seeing and hearing the two don't count?
quote:
So then, if you admit that God has condemned this practice, why do you insist on doing it?
This is not an answer, this is simply repeating the challenge without listening to the explanation.
quote:
When Mary allegedly appears at Fatima, Medjegure or various Mexican food items, does she not give information?
Fatima is not the result of someone trying to get information. Fatima was a gift, and no Catholic is required to to put any stock in such things anyways.
quote:
Do Roman Catholics not pray to Mary to deliver messages from God?
Could you explain this. I pray to Mary for intercession, not her delivery service.
quote:
First of all, why would you pray to a dead person, anyway?
I think you are confused. God is the King of the living. Those who die in Christ live, hence when you are praying to someone in heaven you are not praying to someone who is dead.
quote:
Second, why not just pray to God?
Catholic Church never teaches that one HAS to use the saints for intercession. We do both.
quote:
Both are occult practices.
Could you explain your reasoning. Simply stating it is not an argument
The Bible commands us to pray for one another. the "Me and Jesus" alone stance is unbiblical. You may also want to find the difference between worship and pray.
Rom 15:30 - join me by your prayers to God on my behalf
Col 4:3, 1Thess 5:25 - pray for us
2Thess 1:11 - we always pray for you
2Thess 3:1 - finally, brothers, pray for us
Eph 6:18-19 - making supplication for all the saints & for me
Tob 12:12 - angel presents Tobit & Sarah's prayer to God
Ps 148 - David calls upon angels
Zech 1:12 - angel intercedes for Jerusalem
Mk 12:25, Mt 22:30 - men in heaven are as the angels
Rev 5:8 - those in heaven offer prayers of the holy ones to God
*Saints dead, prayer is necromancy (Dt 18:10-11)
Mk 12:26-27 - he is God of the living, not of the dead
Mk 9:4 - Jesus seen conversing with Elijah & Moses
Lk 9:31 - Elijah & Moses aware of earthly events
Rev 6:9-11 - martyrs under altar want earthly vindication
Heb 12:1 - we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses
Lk 16:19-30 - departed rich man intercedes for brothers
Rev 20:4 - saw the souls of those who had been beheaded
Wis 3:1-6 - the souls of the just are in the hand of God
2Macc 15:7-16 - the departed Onias & Jeremiah pray for the Jews
Jas 5:16 Prayers of righteous man
1 Cor. 13:12 - I shall understand fully
1 John 4: 20-21 - whoever loves God must love his brother
1 Cor 12:21 - parts of Christ's Body cannot say to other parts, "I do not need you".
Source: http://www.geocities.com/thecatholi...cheatsheet.html
God Bless
< Message edited by Daylights_56 -- 2/21/2006 7:23:58 PM >
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[Deleted] - 2/21/2006 7:31:43 PM
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RE: Worship Statues? - 2/22/2006 9:19:14 AM
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bridgefin
Posts: 137
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: bridgefin
The Catholic Church teaches its people to worship no one other than God. You misunderstand this Catholic practice.
Reply: Mike_McK
When someone builds a statue of a dead person, ascribes magical powers to that person, and then bows down in prayer to them, lights candles to earn their favor, that's worship.
Let's break this into digestible pieces"
quote:
When someone builds a statue of a dead person..
Building a statue of a person is not worship. If it is, was God worshipping angels when He had statues of them made for the Ark of the Covenant?
quote:
...ascribes magical powers to that person...
We don't do this so it is another misconception.
quote:
...and then bows down in prayer to them...
Again, we offer a prayer request to them and it gets delivered by the Holy Spirit, if He so chooses. We do not worship the human person and that is specifically condemned by the Church. Why do you not know this if you are debating it?
quote:
...lights candles to earn their favor...
You see something wrong with the honoring of saints who have gone before us? Lighting a candle recalls Proverbs 13:9 "The light of the just shines gaily, but the lamp of the wicked goes out."
quote:
...that's worship.
Unfortunately, nothing you have shown constitutes worship. Try again.
quote:
Asking them to pray for you is contacting them.
That's absurd. I have prayed to the Blessed Mother all my life and I have never once contacted her directly. Please speak for yourself and not for me or any other Catholic. Further, you are off topic discussing prayer to saints when statues is the discussion here.
quote:
And you do not trust the Holy Spirit to carry your prayers to God?
This statement if off topic. The issue is statues and not prayer to saints.
quote:
If the Bible says that they're dead, then they're dead, no matter how much the pope tries to twist God's word.
Again, this statement is off topic. Statues is the discussion and not saints or prayer to them or their status.
quote:
And you haven't demonstrated anything but a blind allegience to your pope, rather than the word of God.
Please cease your offensive tone. Allegience to the pope is off topic. Can you please discuss statues and not use this forum to insult people who you disagree with.
In Christ, George
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RE: Worship Statues? - 2/22/2006 11:36:15 AM
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Ps103
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quote:
Sorry Ps103 I tried
And I appreciate it, too!
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RE: Worship Statues? - 2/22/2006 12:52:07 PM
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unworthyseraphim
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In an effort to wend our way back on track, lets put aside Mary and the Saints in any context for just a little bit.
Lets limit ourselves to just the image of Christ, whether canonical icon or relief, traditional statue, or nontraditional, noncanonical work of imagination depicting Christ our Lord (naturalistic Christ at Gethesemane, Sunday School poster of Jesus playing soccer, bobblehead Jesus, etc.)
Lets ask ourselves some questions:
1. Can we have an image of any sort of Christ?
2.a. If we can, does that carry any sort of theological implications
2.b. If we can't why can't we living on this side of the Incarnation?
3.a Does the Incarnation inform our conscience and practice in any way regarding the making of images of Him? If we had a camera 2000 years ago and took a snapshop of Him what would that image of Him mean?
3.b. What does the Incarnation teach us viv a vis the nature of the material/created world and the power/propriety of artistic representation.?
4. Assuming that an image in some form is permissible, what sort of pastoral counsel should the church then provide in regard to an image of Him that takes into account the significance of the nation.
5. How do the deliberations and canons of the 7th council inform and govern our understanding and use of images of Christ?
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