|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 2/22/2006 5:03:20 PM
|
|
|
Saved34
Posts: 123
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline
|
What exactly is the point of the images? I mean, we all know that there is only one true God. Are Catholics using them for some specific purpose? There must be some logical explaination behind the usage of statues?
_____________________________
"My friend, there is danger of just wanting the information and knowledge from the Bible but failing to translate it into shoe leather, not letting it become part of our lives" - J Vernon Mcgee
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 2/22/2006 5:25:29 PM
|
|
|
unworthyseraphim
Posts: 1092
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Mississippi
Status: offline
|
Dear Saved34.
Have you never heard of the iconclastic controversy of the 8th and 9th centuries. It lasted 150 years and thousands were martyred for Christ in the defense of images. The 7th Ecumenical council vindicated the faith of the iconodules over the iconoclasts, and in its canons set forth the reason and place of images in the theology of the Church. This was the last major joint declaration of faith before eastern Christianity and western went their seperate ways.
You may not know it, but that picture of Jesus on your little hand mirror, Christmas card, or refrigerator magnet was bought with the blood of a lot of holy men and women.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 2/23/2006 11:02:14 AM
|
|
|
Saved34
Posts: 123
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: unworthyseraphim
Dear Saved34.
Have you never heard of the iconclastic controversy of the 8th and 9th centuries. It lasted 150 years and thousands were martyred for Christ in the defense of images. The 7th Ecumenical council vindicated the faith of the iconodules over the iconoclasts, and in its canons set forth the reason and place of images in the theology of the Church. This was the last major joint declaration of faith before eastern Christianity and western went their seperate ways.
You may not know it, but that picture of Jesus on your little hand mirror, Christmas card, or refrigerator magnet was bought with the blood of a lot of holy men and women.
Thanks for the info UWS. I personally don't believe in having pictures of Christ. (though I do own a few movies with his likeness) but I would never Judge someone an Idolator simply because they have a statue in their home.
I readily admit, I don't see the point of having them, but to each his own. I'm pretty sure I do a few things that people would find curious as well.
_____________________________
"My friend, there is danger of just wanting the information and knowledge from the Bible but failing to translate it into shoe leather, not letting it become part of our lives" - J Vernon Mcgee
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 2/23/2006 1:22:32 PM
|
|
|
Daylights_56
Posts: 34
Joined: 1/14/2006
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline
|
Saved
Wow I have to be honest this was not the stance I expected you to take on this subject.
I think the point to remember is that if a statue of a saint takes away ones devotion to God it needs to stop, just like any other practice that takes away the adoration that belongs to God only.
God Bless
_____________________________
“It is no use walking anywhere to preach unless our walking is our preaching.” - St. Francis of Assisi
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 2/23/2006 4:30:29 PM
|
|
|
Saved34
Posts: 123
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Daylights_56
Saved
Wow I have to be honest this was not the stance I expected you to take on this subject.
I think the point to remember is that if a statue of a saint takes away ones devotion to God it needs to stop, just like any other practice that takes away the adoration that belongs to God only.
God Bless
 Sometimes I can come on a little strong. Please never ever believe I think I'm some kind of religious no it all.
_____________________________
"My friend, there is danger of just wanting the information and knowledge from the Bible but failing to translate it into shoe leather, not letting it become part of our lives" - J Vernon Mcgee
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 2/24/2006 12:25:38 PM
|
|
|
unworthyseraphim
Posts: 1092
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Mississippi
Status: offline
|
The point of images
Let’s look at this at two levels, the pragmatic and the theological. Granted this is an artificial division for these two do not separate so easily and each deeply interpenetrates the other. But it is useful for purposes of an introductory discussion.
The most mudane of the pragmatic uses is that images are the books of the illiterate. It is easy for us to forget that the high literacy rates of our time are a new thing in the world. The era in with the Scriptures and Sacred History arose, and the history of the Church for many centuries afterwards was far more oral and visual than literate. And the uses and practices of the Church reflect this….for example it’s why the ancient practice is to chant the Scriptures not just read them aloud. This served the purpose of making them easier to hear and follow in a large group and it preserved the reading of the text from any potentially improper interpretive emphasis or unseemly showmanship in the reading of the Scriptures. And since few people were rich enough to own private copies of Scripture, Church was the only place to hear them read…and they were (and) are read in fairly large chunks compared to contemporary Protestant practice. For those then that heard the Scriptures orally, images put what they heard before their eyes in a condensed stylized form that was carefully developed and guarded so as to be theologically identical in content with the Scripture. What the Scripture was in written word, these images were in line and color. Works of imagination in this realm were forbidden by the canons of the Church…every representation had to be sanctioned in the Tradition, being historically rooted in either eyewitness accounts or verbal descriptions found in Scripture. That is why the face we recognize as that of Christ is what it is…it is the image that has come down to us from apostolic times. And it has been stable across the centuries.
Secondly, done properly, they are beautiful, not just artistically but theologically and when we see them and contemplate what we see our minds are raised to good and holy things, such as the Scriptures commend to our contemplation. They show us the transformation and transfiguration of both man and the world in Christ.
Thirdly, even when not done as works of theological/liturgical art and are more mere illustration and imagination they still serve as markers and reminders of holy things. And they may even teach us other lessons as well…such as was impressed upon Dostoevsky when first saw a Dutch master’s painting of the descent of Christ from the cross…painted realistically as if He were just an ordinary man being taken down from his place of execution…with absolutely no indication Christ was God. It posed the artistic question what if Christ was only human, a proposition that left the writer dumbstruck with horror for almost an hour, a hour full of presentiment of what was before his eyes befalling western civilization.
Now lets look at the theology of the image…specifically that of Christ our Lord. We all know of the 2nd commandment that forbids the making of any image of God. But what it does not forbid…and what the commandment anticipates is God making His own image in the God-Man Christ Jesus. And having become a man, He lived among us as a man. And like a man an image could be made of Him. But what does such an image mean? And how can it be true to Him as God and Man, for though it accurately portrait His Humanity, it cannot so depict His ineffable Godhead?
What the image means theological is both simple and profound. It affirms that God became a man…not an illusion of a man, but as man constituted as are other men of the stuff of this world. The incarnation shows among other things that the creation is good and that the matter of this world may bear unbearable grace. In Christ the stuff of this world was transfigured and divinized. This we see clearly in His transfiguration on Mt. Tabor, and again in His resurrection and ascension. By using the matter of this world to depict Him we affirm His real incarnation and its promise of redemption and renewal for all creation. The image then by its content puts before our eyes the thinnest foretaste of the glory of the world to come…a little window for us to gaze through towards eternity.
But of the God question. Even if we wanted we cannot show depict God in His essence. How do we avoid a kind of artistic Nestorianism in depicting Christ? First we remember that we show Him in His person. How discernable was His divinity face to face…for some not at all, for others touched by the Spirit, it was made known in their hearts, not to their eyes. And from thence their eyes beheld him through their heart. The face they saw, they knew was the face of their God. In the Scripture is the name Jesus Christ intrinsically Divine…would we know that name to be the name of God the Son unless we were told by the rest of Scripture who He is? And so, in our artistic depiction we rely on other visual symbols in association with His image to convey this naturally unseen and unseeable reality. The most obvious is the sphere of light, the halo that surrounds His face. He is light of Light. In the light we see inscribed the cross and the limbs of the cross the “o ho on” Greek for “He Who Is”…the I Am of English usage. Thus we see He is true God of true God. Finally the image is labeled either fully or in abbreviation Jesus Christ (ICXC). Through the image we look to the prototype. Christ our God. In the veneration of His image we honor not the line and color but He who Is, God Incarnate…not our imaginative idea of God Incarnate, but as He came to us and as He is remembered to the Church from ancient times.
The image is the collective visual confession of the Church that God became man and dwelt among us.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 2/25/2006 3:06:20 AM
|
|
|
onelordofall
Posts: 262
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
Well said, Dear unworthyseraphim.
All that, plus we humans cannot deny the gift of our senses.
IOW, we are not all brain...obviously. ;)
Pax Christi,
Michael
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 3/12/2006 12:11:33 AM
|
|
|
jastay3
Posts: 13
Joined: 2/24/2006
Status: offline
|
I suppose that would be for a Catholic to deal with-"who am I that judges another's servant". Catholics know their own justification for it better then I.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 3/12/2006 12:28:40 AM
|
|
|
jastay3
Posts: 13
Joined: 2/24/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
You said it is very nearly insulting to you to hear of Catholic who pray for the conversion of their protestant relatives. In your view is it equally very nearly insulting when Protestants pray for the conversion of their Catholic kin?
_________________________
It is not insulting to either
We each think our own opinion right(unless one of us holds to an opinion he believes wrong, which would make him a hypocrite).
Presumably neither of us desires that are Christian brothers be caught in the trap of error.
And if we think our opinions right we must think contradictions to those opinions wrong.
Therefore it is perfectly legitimate as far as it goes.
But the claim of superior knowledge even in a specific point like any other claim of superiority bears with it a danger of pride. That may be what is meant by "knowledge puffeth up".
So it is easy to give or take offense
So if you do pray for the errors of your protestant/catholic brothers do not be obvious about it. And be careful lest you be, "thanking God that you are not as other men are".
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 3/12/2006 12:32:22 AM
|
|
|
jastay3
Posts: 13
Joined: 2/24/2006
Status: offline
|
By the way-how many times are we going to refight the Thirty years war?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 3/18/2006 12:23:07 AM
|
|
|
ignatius33ad
Posts: 13
Joined: 3/15/2006
Status: offline
|
the worship of anything other than God almighty is a dealy(mortal)sin and is a direct offense agaist he commandment of "you will have no other gods before you"
the worship of One Almighty God is the only worship a catholic can practice else they are anathema.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 5/25/2006 6:29:30 PM
|
|
|
Les
Posts: 55
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
I was sitting in my lounge this morning and thinking of my family that live quite a long way from us...I miss my grandbabies and I love sometimes to just sit there and look at their photos on the table. I think of them the last time I saw them or spoke to them on the phone, I sometimes laugh when I remember something funny they said. I feel closer to them in that time and I just love them more and more.
I know lots of other people do this as well with their familys and even with a picture of someone that has departed this world. This is normal, and its healthy, and it shows closeness and love for that or those people we love.
My question is why then if a Catholic does this same thing before a picture or statue of Mary, is it called Mary worship? I dont worship my family members when I do this, so why would a Catholic be worshipping Mary?
Blessings
Les
_____________________________
People who are crucified with Christ have three distinct marks: 1. they are facing only one direction, 2. they can never turn back, and 3. they no longer have plans of their own.
A.W. Tozer
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 6/14/2006 10:06:29 AM
|
|
|
Fritzpw_Admin
Posts: 7607
Joined: 2/28/2005
From: New Jersey
Status: offline
|
ADMIN'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
BenT,
Please refrain from resorting to personal attacks against other users with whom you disagree.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
_____________________________
Fritz
Senior Manager of Social Media
fritz@salemwebnetwork.com
Want to see my latest online project? Check out http://christianfriend.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 6/14/2006 3:12:25 PM
|
|
|
mushhead
Posts: 466
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
Status: offline
|
UWS,
If we follow the logic for justifying having images when God commands no images. Can't we do the same thing with all the other commandments?
I could regularly tell lies in order to remind myself and others that God hates lying. After all, for those that are unable to read or do not have access to the scriptures, my lying would be a powerful aid for them to remember the the ninth commandment.
I could committ adultery. That too would be powerful teaching aid to remind people not to be unfaithful in their relationships and to obey the seventh commandment.
As you can guess I am stunned by the logic of your argument. I am not telling you or anyone else to stop using idols. That is between you and God. But your reasoning leaves me confused.
Much of what you said about illiteracy and access to the scriptures only when in church was true of God's chosen people. They lived that way for centuries; yet God had this curious command - "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images."
They did okay with that for centuries, why can't we?
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 6/14/2006 5:46:33 PM
|
|
|
ukfan
Posts: 340
Joined: 12/31/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: mushhead
UWS,
If we follow the logic for justifying having images when God commands no images. Can't we do the same thing with all the other commandments?
I could regularly tell lies in order to remind myself and others that God hates lying. After all, for those that are unable to read or do not have access to the scriptures, my lying would be a powerful aid for them to remember the the ninth commandment.
I could committ adultery. That too would be powerful teaching aid to remind people not to be unfaithful in their relationships and to obey the seventh commandment.
As you can guess I am stunned by the logic of your argument. I am not telling you or anyone else to stop using idols. That is between you and God. But your reasoning leaves me confused.
Much of what you said about illiteracy and access to the scriptures only when in church was true of God's chosen people. They lived that way for centuries; yet God had this curious command - "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images."
They did okay with that for centuries, why can't we?
Who did okay with that for centuries? The Jews that had images of angels on the Ark and in their temples?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 8/30/2006 11:18:59 PM
|
|
|
gargle_007
Posts: 7
Joined: 8/27/2006
Status: offline
|
I have this to say, noone ever made a portrait of Jesus Christ and if that were true, the people that have these images, they are deceived.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 8/30/2006 11:22:29 PM
|
|
|
gargle_007
Posts: 7
Joined: 8/27/2006
Status: offline
|
the part where you said about the second commandment, in the end of Revelations, it is said that you aren't allowed to take words away from the bible, if that were true, that means the Catholics did that.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 8/30/2006 11:30:35 PM
|
|
|
gargle_007
Posts: 7
Joined: 8/27/2006
Status: offline
|
I have something to say to you, Admin, my mom used to be a Catholic and she says that she used to worship the statues, so the Catholics you interviewed were lying!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 8/31/2006 12:04:07 AM
|
|
|
milesjesu
Posts: 78
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline
|
gargle_007,
quote:
I have something to say to you, Admin, my mom used to be a Catholic and she says that she used to worship the statues,
It is unfortunate that your mom used to worship statues. She could not be Catholic and do so as it violates the teachings of the faith. You might be surprised to learn that if you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, you would find that being a true Catholic would make worship of statues contrary to the faith. You might even be surprised to find what the Church actually teaches on Idolatry:
2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon." Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast" refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.
Obviously, statues would be prohibited, the Pope, Mary, etc... despite what you may have "heard."
Peace,
MilesJesu
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 8/31/2006 9:17:01 AM
|
|
|
Ps103
Posts: 11601
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Here, now
Status: offline
|
MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Dear Gargle_007,
Please read THIS post before posting further regarding Catholicism.
Thank you.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 8/31/2006 6:54:50 PM
|
|
|
GoodME_II
Posts: 366
Joined: 12/15/2005
Status: offline
|
In this article: Tulsa World, August 14th, a reporter who apparently doesn't know much about the Roman Catholic Faith and its teachings writes that a 16 year old girl says the Hispanic Community "worships" Our Lady of Guadalupe. This is in a credible, wholly secular daily city newspaper - the main newpaper in Tulsa and Eastern Oklahoma. Got by the editor and everybody (unless you are a conspiracy theorist, in which case the editor must have had an agenda to find a quote that Catholics "really do" worship Mary).
There have been no fewer than 5 letters to the editor that the Tulsa World published (no telling how many they actually got) correcting the error of this particular journalist, including a letter from the Pastor of one of the Roman Catholic Parishes in Tulsa. Catholics do not worship Mary, or images, or statues, or anything else but God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit as the three personss of the Godhead. That it - end of story.
I think the point is that if Catholics and the Orthodox say they don't worship statues, then no amount of claiming that they do by anyone else is going to change that fact.
The purpose of the thread then is to educate those that are still uninformed by whomever they are hearing these myths from, just as is the purpose of practically all the "Catholic" threads.
I think you have to applaud people in a way for coming in here to learn, even if the way they do it is a little off-kilter.
Lastly, if you wish to evangelize against something, you'd best have your facts absolutely straight about that something, lest you destroy your credibility, and with it, your ability to convince.
_____________________________
"For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every foul practice. But the wisdom from above is...peaceable, gentle, compliant, full of...good fruits...And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace for those who cultivate peace"
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 9/1/2006 9:59:43 AM
|
|
|
unworthyseraphim
Posts: 1092
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Mississippi
Status: offline
|
What's the difference between a Muslim sitting quietly reading the Koran and an Evangelical sitting quietly and reading the Bible?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 9/1/2006 10:06:35 AM
|
|
|
CCCdnt
Posts: 354
Joined: 3/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: unworthyseraphim
What's the difference between a Muslim sitting quietly reading the Koran and an Evangelical sitting quietly and reading the Bible?
I have not read all the posts but I wanted to answer this question with a simple answer -
- one is reading the Word of God and the other is not.
_____________________________
http://www.abort73.com
See for Yourself
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 9/1/2006 12:23:40 PM
|
|
|
unworthyseraphim
Posts: 1092
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Mississippi
Status: offline
|
Ahh! well maybe there is something analagous that may be applied to the question about a Buddhist praying (do Buddhists pray?) with his beads and a Catholic praying with his beads.
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
