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RE: Worship Statues? - 9/1/2006 5:21:58 PM
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GoodME_II
Posts: 364
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quote:
ORIGINAL: schupfNoodle
Check out the pictures.
Catholics praying:
You are trying to make black coffee out of chicken soup.
I could show a picture of a monkey on the back of a dog and claim that the monkey owned the dog and bought him from the local Petsmart with money he earned repairing air conditioners. He lives in a big house and built a doghouse with his own little bare monkey hands (he's a handy monkey, you know...)
In spite of this claim, all you really see is a monkey on the back of a dog.
You have been instructed in this thread - by Catholics - that you are perpetuating falsehood. The choice is - do you continue to do so, now knowing that you are perpetuating falsehood, or do you stop?
_____________________________
"For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every foul practice. But the wisdom from above is...peaceable, gentle, compliant, full of...good fruits...And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace for those who cultivate peace"
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RE: Worship Statues? - 9/1/2006 11:02:43 PM
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milesjesu
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quote:
It would seem where I come from, it is unfortunate that the majority of the Catholics haven't heard of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
That is indeed unfortunate. Perhaps it is a fertile mission ground for faithful, practicing Catholics to help spread the word.
quote:
They honor and revere statues, offer flowers to them, rub their feet and kiss them. And yes, pray to them.
I think you miss the point. Perhaps it is due to your zeal in trying to assert that Catholics do something they do not. Here you say that they "honor and revere statues" yet the very picture you link to states:
Pilgrims to Lourdes love to pray around the statue of Bernadette, knowing that she suffered like them and that she intercedes for us all to the Lord.
It would seem by reading the associated caption that they are actually honoring Bernadette, who "suffered like them" and that she "intercedes for them to the Lord." I think you would perhaps admit after considering your statement, that they really are not thinking of the statue itself.
quote:
What differentiates a Catholic offering a flower to a statue to a Budhist offering to his statue?
I think you can probably figure out where the strawman is in this statement in light of the above comments...
quote:
What differentiates a Catholic praying the rosary to a Buddhist praying with his beads?
The object of their prayer....
Peace,
MilesJesu
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RE: Worship Statues? - 9/3/2006 10:03:17 AM
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schupfNoodle
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The thread is about worhipping statues. And I find similarities with a Buddhist's and a Catholic's beads and statues. I wonder if they have a similar history.
Don't get me wrong. Just about everybody I grew up with are Catholics. As was my family when I was younger. My teachers, best friends, uncles, aunts, cousins, officemates... are still Catholics. I come from a Catholic country.
The people in this thread say they don't worship idols, yet by growing up with the people around me, it makes me believe otherwise. The 'devotion' to statues is there, if we don't want to use the word worship. The kissing, the rubbing of the feet, the offering of candles and flowers.
What's the thing with a statue? You see many statues everywhere. Let's say we have a statue of a dead hero. If I start bringing it flowers, kissing it, decorating it with thousands of $$$ worth of jewels, bowing down to it, reciting my prayers in front of it, kneeling around it. What would people think I was doing?
Am I any different from a Buddhist with his statue and a Catholic with his statue?
Actually the answer is yes. A Buddhist would not deny he was worshipping, I would. Just ahhm devoting a lot of time in front of it :-)
quote:
ORIGINAL: milesjesu
quote:
It would seem where I come from, it is unfortunate that the majority of the Catholics haven't heard of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
That is indeed unfortunate. Perhaps it is a fertile mission ground for faithful, practicing Catholics to help spread the word.
Have fun. I think there are currently , hmmm, 65 million of them 
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RE: Worship Statues? - 9/27/2006 1:34:07 PM
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GoodME_II
Posts: 364
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quote:
ORIGINAL: schupfNoodle
What's the thing with a statue? You see many statues everywhere. Let's say we have a statue of a dead hero. If I start bringing it flowers, kissing it, decorating it with thousands of $$$ worth of jewels, bowing down to it, reciting my prayers in front of it, kneeling around it. What would people think I was doing?
They would think one of two things:
- That you are venerating or honoring a piece of concrete or rock in the shape of a dead hero; to which people would rightly think you a kook...
- That you are honoring or venerating the memory, courage, valor and actions of the fallen hero; to which people might jump in and help you...
Every year, the US President lays a wreath at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. We all immediately understand this to be honoring the memory of not only that particular invidual who died fighting for America, but all such "unknown" dead. We (well, most of us) immediately make this connection without any hesitation, and rarely does anyone question it (except to question the government for the wars they choose to fight, etc.).
And yet, when Catholics are honoring the courage and obediance of Mary by reflecting upon and decorating a statue, it is immediately assumed that the Catholics are a bunch of pagan idolators.
_____________________________
"For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every foul practice. But the wisdom from above is...peaceable, gentle, compliant, full of...good fruits...And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace for those who cultivate peace"
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RE: Worship Statues? - 9/27/2006 1:50:24 PM
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mariadreamer
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Since my thread was closed and I wasn't able to find many answers in this thread, I am forced to ask this here (although this is not about statues):
This might be a very narrow subject but would like to see the perspectives of those whose churches have used or still use icons/religious pictures or if you know something about the history of icons. I have only very limited info regarding this and a little confused. I do understand that before most people could read, this was a way to communicate examplary lives in the Christian community.
1. When were the icons first used?
2. Do any other churches use icons other than Roman Catholic and Orthodox?
3. What exactly are the teachings regarding those? I spoke with a Roman Catholic who said RCC considers them just pictures, but an Orthodox bishop was saying that icons are not just pictures but "windows into heaven" or something similar to that. (How much veneration should we show? Is it required? Specifically, my husband gets uncomfortable watching people kiss icons/paintings on the wall in the Orthodox church.)
4. What do I say to a Baptist friend who says icons are detestable in the eyes of God?
5. I know the Church teaches we don't worship icons, but where is the line between venaration and worship? Do you think some people actually DO worship them without knowing more?
_____________________________
Christ is risen from the dead,
by death He has trampled down death,
and on those in the tombs bestowing life!
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RE: Worship Statues? - 9/27/2006 2:22:09 PM
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GoodME_II
Posts: 364
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mariadreamer
Since my thread was closed and I wasn't able to find many answers in this thread, I am forced to ask this here (although this is not about statues):
This might be a very narrow subject but would like to see the perspectives of those whose churches have used or still use icons/religious pictures or if you know something about the history of icons. I have only very limited info regarding this and a little confused. I do understand that before most people could read, this was a way to communicate examplary lives in the Christian community.
1. When were the icons first used? People used to draw on cave walls over 10,000 years ago. People are able to look at something and then locmote their hand with an implement to mimic with lines and curves what they see. This is unique to humans; which brings the phrase "in God's image" to mind (God is an artist too)
2. Do any other churches use icons other than Roman Catholic and Orthodox? I don't know. I don't see how this is any different than seeing a picture of George Washington in a history book.
3. What exactly are the teachings regarding those? I spoke with a Roman Catholic who said RCC considers them just pictures, but an Orthodox bishop was saying that icons are not just pictures but "windows into heaven" or something similar to that. (How much veneration should we show? Is it required? Specifically, my husband gets uncomfortable watching people kiss icons/paintings on the wall in the Orthodox church.) Maybe UWS or Walter on one of the other Orthodox posters will come here and answer this. I am not uncomfortable with the kissing of the image - this is veneration; honoring the memory and understanding of the example and valor of the person, who's image is before the venerator.
4. What do I say to a Baptist friend who says icons are detestable in the eyes of God? Try my "Tomb of the Unknown Soldier analogy above.
5. I know the Church teaches we don't worship icons, but where is the line between venaration and worship? Do you think some people actually DO worship them without knowing more? I have run into people who do not understand the semantics between "worship" and "veneration". There was a recent flap in my local newspaper because a 16 year old girl said in one instance in an interview that contained several instances of "honroing Mary" that they were "worshipping Mary". The teen clearly knew the difference and made an honest mistake, but the reporter had a bit of a filed day with it in reporting it (hidden agenda??). The paper printed no fewer than 5 letters to the editor correcting the mistake - one from the pastor of a local parish.
Catholics know what they are doing (generally); a lot of mythology is generated by observers who do not know what is going on. If I define the color "blompy" as the color of the sky on a clear day, we might say that the background color of this website is a darker shade of "blompy". This is how people work and convey ideas - by definition and application.
If someone looks at a woman and defines what she is doing as "blompy" and then says "blompy" is anti-biblical, then they are simply defining the woman as anti-biblical, with the "insular" mid-step of trying to do it by something the woman is doing. This is usally a means to an end (defining Catholics as being anti-Scriptural in their practice); a just means might be to ask the woman what she is doing and why.
Funny how a lot of times people can't be bothered to do that; they would rather rationalize a story which suits the conclusion that they have already jumped to...
_____________________________
"For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every foul practice. But the wisdom from above is...peaceable, gentle, compliant, full of...good fruits...And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace for those who cultivate peace"
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RE: Worship Statues? - 9/27/2006 2:40:06 PM
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unworthyseraphim
Posts: 1090
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Dear Maria,
According to the tradition, the first icon was made by Christ (image not made by hands/holy mandilion) of himself in response to a letter from King Agbar of Edessa who asked Him for healing. The image was sent with St. Thadeus to King Agbar after the resurrection, by which was heal and soon there after the city was converted. You may read the full account in Eusebius, History of the Church.
The second icon was made of the Holy Virgin and the Christ Child by St. Luke when he intervieved her for his Gospel. She said, "My Son will bless this image"
Icons of saints began as funeary portraits in Christian communities of Egypt and Palestine. They were brought into the Temples along with the relics of martyrs.
A precise theology with regard to the purpose and proper use of icons was not worked out with any exactitude until the time of the persecutions that arose in the iconoclastic controversy which eventually led to the 7th ecumenical council and its canons. You should read those for greater insight into the Churches theology on this point. Also the seminal work by St. John of Damascus, On Holy Icons.
All the ancient communions use icons: Catholic, Orthodox, Syrian, Armenian, Copt, Malankara. Rome and western christianity though made less use of them and had a less thorough understanding of the theology and implications of the image for most of it history. In recent years this has begun to change though and Catholics are being to start to really appreciate the profound theology proclaimed by the icon.
According to the canons of the Church the veneration that may be shown to an icon is the same that may be shown to a human being. This is why after the icons are censed, the people are censed. We are all icons...or meant to be...of Christ, and the icons we venerate are icons of icons who more fully fulfilled this by the grace of God in their earthly lives.
As for your baptist friend, I recall a story of an iconographer brough before an iconclastic emporer who urged him to desist from icons because images were nothing. He even put an image of Christ on the floor and told him to trample it. The monk instead took a coin from his purse bearing the emperor's image, dropped it on the floor and trampled it instead. He was hauled off in chains to be executed...upon which he said in the emperor's hearing, "See, an image is not nothing." I wonder how eagerly your friend would trample a western image of Christ, let alone an icon.
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RE: Worship Statues? - 12/13/2006 4:31:07 PM
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bklynexcatholic
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No Catholics do not worship statues, they look upon the statue to meditate while in prayer. Hence if you're praying on the Lord's suffering, looking upon a crucifix may aid you in that prayer. Or if you are praying to St. Jude asking for intercessory prayer looking upon a statue of St. Jude may help you focus. But in my days I have seen many Catholics act in ways that made me very uncomfortable, to include parading statues around, crying at the statue, kissing the statue, rubbing the statues feet etc... To me that is making the statue more than just an image, a work of art that can invoke deeper meditation. Actions like that are simply crossing the line, and you can see it anytime you want. If you live in a city, sit in a Catholic Church and observe for about 30 minutes, someone will come in and behave in a way innappropriate towards a statue.
That said the Bible is pretty clear that not only are you not to worship them, but you aren't to make them NOR bow down to them, both of these Catholics do often, not to mention offer candles in front of the statues which always bothered me too.
So while it isn't statue worship, what Catholics do is still explicitly forbidden in the Bible. This was the MAJOR factor in me leaving the Catholic Church. No manner of mental gymnastics could stop me from asking why not just err on the side of caution and obey the commandment to not make graven images and bow dow to them? This issue has caused me an immense amount of pain and turmoil, and I do think the wrong side of the Iconoclast "heresy" won.
I will add that many Protestants homes are decorated with images of Jesus, Angels, statues of angels etc... taken literally this is also explicitly against the Bible.
< Message edited by bklynexcatholic -- 12/13/2006 4:53:44 PM >
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RE: Worship Statues? - 12/13/2006 4:58:52 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4508
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quote:
I wonder how eagerly your friend would trample a western image of Christ, let alone an icon.
Given the fact that the common western image of Christ looks nothing like a Jew I would... Not to mention it would be interesting to record the response of those who claim it's just an image and has no meaning in the context they don't worship the picture itself...
John
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RE: Worship Statues? - 12/13/2006 5:22:19 PM
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unworthyseraphim
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I don't worship the Holy Scriptures either but God helping me I'm not going to trample them just to make a point that they are materially just paper and ink.
If you would willingly trample an image of Christ western or not because it doesn't comport with your physical criteria for a Jew...would you perhaps be willing to trample a flag just because it looks nothing like the geographic boundaries of the USA? And if you wouldn't trample a flag that symbolizes the nation, but have no problem trampling an image that at the very least indicates/symbolizes Christ...then what does that say?
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RE: Worship Statues? - 12/13/2006 6:04:34 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4508
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unworthyseraphim
I don't worship the Holy Scriptures either but God helping me I'm not going to trample them just to make a point that they are materially just paper and ink.
The bible isn't a figment of man's imagination like a "picture" of Christ or the Zig-Zag man...
quote:
If you would willingly trample an image of Christ western or not because it doesn't comport with your physical criteria for a Jew...would you perhaps be willing to trample a flag just because it looks nothing like the geographic boundaries of the USA?
My physical criteria for a Jew? Ok...
I chuckle at the fact that in most pictures/movies Christ looks nothing like Peter, Paul or whomever... Generally taller and for lack of better term, good looking compared to others... Since pictures and movies can't really depict His deity they tend to make His physical appearance stand out to draw attention to Him...
quote:
And if you wouldn't trample a flag but have no problem trampling an image that at the very least indicates/symbolizes Christ...then what does that say?
That would depend on how much stock the person places in things that they believe indicate/symbolizes Christ. Which could be anything from something scratched in the dirt to the grandest creation of man's imagination in the world that is said to represent Christ.
Btw... What more can a image that is said to be Christ be but something that indicates/symbolizes Christ in the minds of those who feel the need to clutch and hold something in their hands; much in the same manner Thomas had to touch Christ to be sure in his mind.
John
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RE: Worship Statues? - 12/13/2006 8:07:27 PM
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big-bri
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GoodME_II
I have run into people who do not understand the semantics between "worship" and "veneration".
The Catechism book that I read once-upon-a-time also distinguished between veneration and adoration. According to what I read, icons were to be venerated, but never adored, and certainly never worshipped.
From this Catholic dictionary:
"the Seventh General Council, the second of Nice (787), defined the Catholic position, distinguishing between divine (latreutical) adoration and veneration of honor (Greek: time), between absolute and relative veneration, the latter due to images, because referred to the original."
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RE: Worship Statues? - 12/13/2006 8:11:08 PM
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Erucolindo
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Here is question I would like to ask:
It is says of Christ in the Scriptures
Romans 8:34
34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.
and elsewhere in
Hebrews 7:25 Therefore he is able to save completely[c] those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
and then in John 2:1-2
1My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Based on these Scriptures why would need any saint to intercede for us? The intercession of Christ before God is suffient.
THe HOly Spirit also intercedes for us as well in accordance to God's will.
Romans 8:26-27
So again why do we need to the saint to intercede for us, is God deaf? Is is so busy running the universe that he cant here us pray?
Why would you want to pray to a saint anyway? As believers we have direct access to God by the Spirit Ephesains 2:18 , in him and through faith in him we may approach God in freedom and confidence Ephesians 3:12
SO why pray to a saint, why pray to an image or an icon. This is idolatry is it not.
There I have said my peace.
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RE: Worship Statues? - 12/13/2006 8:36:50 PM
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big-bri
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Erucolindo
Based on these Scriptures why would need any saint to intercede for us? The intercession of Christ before God is suffient . . . So again why do we need to the saint to intercede for us, is God deaf? Is is so busy running the universe that he cant here us pray?
Okay then, I don't ever want you to consider praying for someone else, or having a brother or sister in Christ pray for you or your loved ones; God is sufficient, therefore it isn't necessary.
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RE: Worship Statues? - 12/13/2006 8:49:38 PM
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Erucolindo
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Erucolindo
Based on these Scriptures why would need any saint to intercede for us? The intercession of Christ before God is suffient . . . So again why do we need to the saint to intercede for us, is God deaf? Is is so busy running the universe that he cant here us pray? quote:
Okay then, I don't ever want you to consider praying for someone else, or having a brother or sister in Christ pray for you or your loved ones; God is sufficient, therefore it isn't necessary.
Praying for others is commanded in Scripture. I dont see any instruction in the Bible that tells us to pray to anyone else but God. Is my real point. To pray to anyone else in Heaven beside the Trinity is idolatry.
Unless you can show this in SCripture and only Scripture then I cant not accept your point of view.
Eruc
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RE: Worship Statues? - 12/13/2006 11:43:43 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: big-bri
quote:
ORIGINAL: Erucolindo
Based on these Scriptures why would need any saint to intercede for us? The intercession of Christ before God is suffient . . . So again why do we need to the saint to intercede for us, is God deaf? Is is so busy running the universe that he cant here us pray?
Okay then, I don't ever want you to consider praying for someone else, or having a brother or sister in Christ pray for you or your loved ones; God is sufficient, therefore it isn't necessary.
If you can't reach a brother or sister on earth by phone, email or smoke signals do you pray to them to pray for you?
John
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RE: Worship Statues? - 12/14/2006 12:00:52 AM
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unworthyseraphim
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The image of Christ in the icons is not a work of the imagination but is rooted in the historical image of the person of Christ.
Movies about the life of Christ are images of actors dressed up in imitation of popular images of Christ which are imaginitive interpretations of the image passed on to us in the Holy Icons.
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RE: Worship Statues? - 12/14/2006 12:23:47 AM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unworthyseraphim
The image of Christ in the icons is not a work of the imagination but is rooted in the historical image of the person of Christ.
Chapter and verse? Oh wait... Never mind...
quote:
Movies about the life of Christ are images of actors dressed up in imitation of popular images of Christ which are imaginitive interpretations of the image passed on to us in the Holy Icons.
Arguing against "imaginative interpretations" of people is like flailing away at windmills...
John
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RE: Worship Statues? - 12/14/2006 1:01:47 AM
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Lurker
Posts: 742
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Silver Spring, MD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Erucolindo
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Erucolindo
Based on these Scriptures why would need any saint to intercede for us? The intercession of Christ before God is suffient . . . So again why do we need to the saint to intercede for us, is God deaf? Is is so busy running the universe that he cant here us pray? quote:
Okay then, I don't ever want you to consider praying for someone else, or having a brother or sister in Christ pray for you or your loved ones; God is sufficient, therefore it isn't necessary.
Praying for others is commanded in Scripture. I dont see any instruction in the Bible that tells us to pray to anyone else but God. Is my real point. To pray to anyone else in Heaven beside the Trinity is idolatry.
Unless you can show this in SCripture and only Scripture then I cant not accept your point of view.
Eruc
First show us that everything a Christian should believe in has to be in Scripture.
;)
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Worship Statues? - 12/14/2006 11:40:18 AM
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big-bri
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
If you can't reach a brother or sister on earth by phone, email or smoke signals do you pray to them to pray for you?
Of course not; God is sufficient- remember?
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RE: Worship Statues? - 12/14/2006 11:46:02 AM
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big-bri
Posts: 532
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Erucolindo
Praying for others is commanded in Scripture. I dont see any instruction in the Bible that tells us to pray to anyone else but God.
The problem here is that you are getting hung up on semantics. We are commanded to not worship anyone but God, but pray can also encompass entreating someone for something, e.g. "Pray tell . . ."
quote:
Unless you can show this in SCripture and only Scripture then I cant not accept your point of view.
Back atcha: where does scripture forbid it?
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RE: Worship Statues? - 12/14/2006 12:04:27 PM
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unworthyseraphim
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Dear Sovereign,
The verse you are looking for is probably summed up under St. John's statement that if all that Jesus said and did were recorded it would be hard for the world to contain all that could be written.
The image we have of Him is historic and comes to us from three sources. The first is the image provided by Christ Himself to the emissaries of king Agbar of Edessa. This image was in possession of the Eastern Church until the sack of Constantinople in the 13th century. It was lost after that. The second is from the image of Him commision by the Syro-phonecian woman from the Gospels. She had a statue made of Him and placed it on her gate post. The church historian of the 4th century Eusebius had seen it and I think it lasted until the 5th or 6th century. The third is from St. Luke who gives us the youthful image of Christ. When he interviewed the blessed Theotokos for the Gospel that bears his name, being also a painter he asked to paint an image of her with the Christ child (whose description she provided). When the image was done she said that her Son would bless that image. That image is the first of the "Madonna" type icons of the Church. Of the several images of her and Christ he painted at least five remain whose provenance perports them to be originally from the hand of St. Luke. All images of Christ in Eastern icons are tracable to and derived from these originals.
This legacy began to be lost in the west when religous painters there began to use human models who resembled the icongraphic images or who else suited their imagination's image. Thus iconography was lost to the west and replaced by various modes of religous illustration. From what I can tell there is some movement in Roman and Traditionalist Anglican circles to start relearning and reclaiming the ancient icongraphic tradition and representational modes.
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RE: Worship Statues? - 12/14/2006 12:16:55 PM
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schupfNoodle
Posts: 93
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quote:
ORIGINAL: big-bri
quote:
ORIGINAL: Erucolindo
Praying for others is commanded in Scripture. I dont see any instruction in the Bible that tells us to pray to anyone else but God.
The problem here is that you are getting hung up on semantics. We are commanded to not worship anyone but God, but pray can also encompass entreating someone for something, e.g. "Pray tell . . ."
quote:
Unless you can show this in SCripture and only Scripture then I cant not accept your point of view.
Back atcha: where does scripture forbid it?
Exodus 20:3-10
3 "You shall have no other gods before [a] me.
4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.
Revelation 9:20
20The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk.
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RE: Worship Statues? - 12/14/2006 12:41:11 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4508
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: big-bri
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
If you can't reach a brother or sister on earth by phone, email or smoke signals do you pray to them to pray for you?
Of course not; God is sufficient- remember?
Does anyone else care to answser my question?
John
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John
Proverbs 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord.
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RE: Worship Statues? - 12/14/2006 12:57:30 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4508
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unworthyseraphim
Dear Sovereign,
The verse you are looking for is probably summed up under St. John's statement that if all that Jesus said and did were recorded it would be hard for the world to contain all that could be written.
Is there a limit to what can be stuffed into what John is refering to? Or is this case of "if the Church declares it" so be it and it's on par with God's word...
John
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord.
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