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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/29/2008 12:42:51 PM
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Catholicandloveit
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Stellaluna,
A - We disagree - Peace
B - I did not word my PP well. Jesus was kept free from all sins because he is the son of God. Mary did not make Jesus sinless, I did NOT mean to imply that. God kept Mary sinless as she was chosen before her conception to be the woman to carry Jesus - God kept original sin from touching his son by keeping it from his mother. This was a gift to Mary from God not a gift Mary gave Jesus.
Pax
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Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/29/2008 1:39:59 PM
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1love1God1way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
God kept original sin from touching his son by keeping it from his mother.
This is the part of the argument that I never understood.
Why is it that Jesus needed a sinless mother so that he could be born sinless, but Mary did not need sinless parents to be born sinless?
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-Ben-
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/29/2008 2:01:51 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 914
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
Why is it that Jesus needed a sinless mother so that he could be born sinless, but Mary did not need sinless parents to be born sinless?
You mis-read the statement.
Mary was not sin-free to bear a sin-free Son. Mary was sin-free to carry God's child. Mary was the vessel, not the cause....and the vessel was pure. This has nothing to do with whether or not the child is sin free, it only describes the nature of the vessel.
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...If Christian Doctrine were on trial, the Bible would be called as a witness. The Church serves as the judge...(Acts 15:28)
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/29/2008 2:13:11 PM
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Papa-san
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
I believe that Mary was sinless, but that doesn't mean I think the Gospel is a lie. I think that the idea that Jesus was kept free from sin by being born to someone who was free from sin fits the Gospel better then the alternative.
a) it isn't the "alternative"...it is, in fact, the gospel the way it was written
b) Jesus wasn't kept free from sin because He was born to someone who was sinless...He was kept free from sin because He was the SON OF GOD; the fact that He was sinless and no other human has ever been sinless is THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE WHOLE THING
BINGO!!!
To say that Mary was entirely free from sin places her in a position that can only be filled by Jesus Christ! If Mary was sinless, no matter what the reason, then it means that there is another way to achieve Salvation, and to say that Salvation comes through Christ alone then becomes a lie!
This is why there is such a big problem with Mariolotry: It invalidates the Gospel...
Almighty God could make a perfectly sin-free child (His Son) issue forth from a pig-sty if He so chose to. (Lighten up... that isn't me saying anything about Mary!) It's just the fact of the matter.. God can do ANYTHING, even through a sinful vessel... That's why the Gospels don't state she was sin-free... She didn't need to be.
< Message edited by Papa-san -- 4/29/2008 2:20:16 PM >
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"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/29/2008 2:34:08 PM
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Ps103
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Forgotten about THIS thread, have we?
Please take the sinless discussion there and only use this thread for discussing "Praying to the Saints and Mary?"
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/30/2008 8:17:32 PM
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ukfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
quote:
ORIGINAL: ukfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
Can any of you Orthodox point me to scripture verses that confirm your claim that these saints and Mary can hear us, please?
It's been done multiple times in this thread already but you just interpret those verses differently.
Based on my involvement in the Eucharist thread I think that sometimes even if there were explicit instructions in Scripture that said the Saints in Heaven can hear our request for prayer some Protestants would say "that's not what they really meant." 
No... If it said it, we'd agree. That's just how we roll....
Really? St. John the Apostle, in describing his experience his Heavenly vision wrote, Rev 5:13 And I heard every creature which is in the Heaven and on the earth, and under the earth, and those that are in the sea, and all who are in them, saying, Blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb forever and ever.
Here we have a verse of Scripture expressly stating what you've just questioned. A Saint, given a beatific vision, heard prayers. Now I can already hear your objections. "But what he meant was...," etc. But what you mean, what it all boils down to is "I don't interpret those verses the same way."
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"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church...." -ARCHBISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/30/2008 10:14:03 PM
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Papa-san
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ukfan
Really? St. John the Apostle, in describing his experience his Heavenly vision wrote, Rev 5:13 And I heard every creature which is in the Heaven and on the earth, and under the earth, and those that are in the sea, and all who are in them, saying, Blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb forever and ever.
Here we have a verse of Scripture expressly stating what you've just questioned. A Saint, given a beatific vision, heard prayers. Now I can already hear your objections. "But what he meant was...," etc. But what you mean, what it all boils down to is "I don't interpret those verses the same way."
And THIS is what you offer as 'proof'?
Sorry, but you're going to have to at least hit somewhere inside the stadium!
It's not even a matter of interpretation!
Have you even read what it says!?!
What were all of these creatures saying? Then, most importantly... WHY were they saying it in this particular passage?
What it boils down to is the fact that the actual words written cannot even be IMAGINED to say anything that can imply that anyone in heaven can hear our requests to THEM to pass on our needs to Christ or God.
Try again... That one didn't even land on the same continent!
< Message edited by Papa-san -- 4/30/2008 10:48:31 PM >
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"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/30/2008 10:27:00 PM
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Papa-san
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Seriously, though... John was granted this vision for a specific reason. He was supposed to pass on what He saw and experienced there. What he wrote about was the situation when the Book was supposed to be opened. The passage is about who could possibly be worthy of loosing the seals and opening that book. What you quoted was simply validation of the fact that the Lamb is worthy. That's why John heard " ...every creature which is in the Heaven and on the earth, and under the earth, and those that are in the sea, and all who are in them, saying, Blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb forever and ever." Because HE is worthy to loose the seals and open that book.
THAT is the context. You'd have to be on drugs to see it any OTHER way! I would challenge anyone who reads this to look at that passage (Revelation 5) themselves and see if there is ANY way it could be interpreted as meaning that the saints in heaven can hear our prayers to them so they can pass those on to God...
If you say it can, please explain... Because I really cannot see it...
EDIT:
I should apologize for the drugs thing...
I suppose that if you started with the idea that you wanted to be able to justify praying to these people who have died, and then looked at this verse as a stand-alone statement with no real context surrounding it, that you might be able to convince yourself that maybe it could fall into a slightly similar vein... But it seems to be a MUCH farther stretch than it will actually reach... It's really not a very good argument for the case of praying to Mary and the saints...
What else do you have?
< Message edited by Papa-san -- 4/30/2008 10:46:34 PM >
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/1/2008 4:42:46 AM
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kelman
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quote:
...and under the earth, and those that are in the sea, and all who are in them, How could anyone possibly interpret the above as the saints in heaven hearing the prayers of those on earth? I can't even imagine the lenses one must be looking through to come up with that understanding.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/1/2008 8:23:10 AM
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ukfan
Posts: 340
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
quote:
ORIGINAL: ukfan
Really? St. John the Apostle, in describing his experience his Heavenly vision wrote, Rev 5:13 And I heard every creature which is in the Heaven and on the earth, and under the earth, and those that are in the sea, and all who are in them, saying, Blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb forever and ever.
Here we have a verse of Scripture expressly stating what you've just questioned. A Saint, given a beatific vision, heard prayers. Now I can already hear your objections. "But what he meant was...," etc. But what you mean, what it all boils down to is "I don't interpret those verses the same way."
And THIS is what you offer as 'proof'?
Sorry, but you're going to have to at least hit somewhere inside the stadium!
It's not even a matter of interpretation!
Have you even read what it says!?!
What were all of these creatures saying? Then, most importantly... WHY were they saying it in this particular passage?
You say it's not even a matter of interpretation, then ask me why they were saying this? 
_____________________________
"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church...." -ARCHBISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/1/2008 9:43:53 AM
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stellaluna
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Dude...it's a stretch to even say that passage means they were praying at all. It appears that everyone and everything has stopped daily business to worship God.
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"In one century, we went from teaching Greek and Latin in lower schools to teaching remedial English in colleges."
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/1/2008 10:12:15 AM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 303
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ukfan
Really? St. John the Apostle, in describing his experience his Heavenly vision wrote, Rev 5:13 And I heard every creature which is in the Heaven and on the earth, and under the earth, and those that are in the sea, and all who are in them, saying, Blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb forever and ever.
Here we have a verse of Scripture expressly stating what you've just questioned. A Saint, given a beatific vision, heard prayers. Now I can already hear your objections. "But what he meant was...," etc. But what you mean, what it all boils down to is "I don't interpret those verses the same way."
You were right about the objections
I liked the verse for what its worth.
Pax,
Mary
A Blessed Month of May and Ascension Thursday to all.
< Message edited by Catholicandloveit -- 5/1/2008 10:18:30 AM >
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Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/1/2008 12:06:51 PM
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ukfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
Dude...it's a stretch to even say that passage means they were praying at all. It appears that everyone and everything has stopped daily business to worship God.
I think you've missed the point. One of the problems some protestants have is "Saints can't hear us in Heaven". This is just what Papa asked about. This verse clearly illustrates that Saints can hear us on Earth.
_____________________________
"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church...." -ARCHBISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/1/2008 12:17:18 PM
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Zhi
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Actually you've demonstrated that a single saint, still alive, and in a vision sent directly from God enabling him to see God's point of view, is able to hear a future declaration of worship as part of a prophecy on the part of all of creation saying a single thing.
Don't you think people were praying when he was having his vision? He didn't hear any of them.
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The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/1/2008 1:43:44 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1179
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Meh. I'll break it down.
The saints you insist can hear us have died. John is not dead when he has this experience. Therefore John is not a saint who has died who can hear us in this passage.
You insist that the dead saints hear our prayers. John does not hear anything other than a single statement of worship made by all of creation. One must assume that there were prayers happening concurrent to this single statement of worship, but John does not hear any of these.
You insist that dead saints hear our prayers asking them for intervention. The statement that John hears is not a request to John for intervention. The statement John hears is made directly to God.
You insist that dead saints hear our current prayers asking them for intervention. The statement John hears is quite obviously, from context, made in the future, not John's present time. There is no indication that prayers can be heard from the present time.
Therefore there is no indication whatsoever in this passage that dead saints can hear prayers for intervention you make to them at the current time.
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The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/1/2008 9:34:33 PM
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Papa-san
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ukfan
I think you've missed the point. One of the problems some protestants have is "Saints can't hear us in Heaven". This is just what Papa asked about. This verse clearly illustrates that Saints can hear us on Earth.
NO, IT DOES NOT!!!
The verse clearly illustrates that John, (A saint), heard these voices while he was still very much alive. He heard "all" of these voices affirming the fact that Jesus was worthy to break the seals and open that book during the end times...
Absolutely NOTHING in here says that even one saint who has died and is in Heaven can hear our prayers. It's not even a stretch... It just doesn't even apply in the least!
This verse very, very clearly says that one alive saint, taken to Heaven to have prophecy revealed to him in regards to the end times, was able to hear " ...every creature which is in the Heaven and on the earth, and under the earth, and those that are in the sea, and all who are in them, saying, Blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb forever and ever." in order to write to us about the future time when this book is supposed to be opened.
There is no reason for us NOT to object to this... All along, I have been under the assumption that I have been debating with some reasonably intelligent and rational individuals on this topic. If you actually see what you say you do in this verse, I would be a fool not to re-assess that opinion. I believe this is a prime example of my lemming example. There is no way that you could have come up with 'saints who have died and are in heaven can hear us' through the reading and understanding of this verse. The ONLY way to this understanding is by blindly following the person in front of you... Unless you have a lot more to go on, that is...
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/2/2008 2:23:34 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3735
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ukfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
...and under the earth, and those that are in the sea, and all who are in them, How could anyone possibly interpret the above as the saints in heaven hearing the prayers of those on earth? I can't even imagine the lenses one must be looking through to come up with that understanding.
How could anyone interpret "And I heard every creature which is in the Heaven and on the earth" to mean Saints hear us on earth? 
You do a disservice to the very meaning of the sentence by not including ALL of the sentence. It speaks of every creature in heaven, earth and sea. That would include the animals and very probably the mountains, etc. - all of creation giving glory to Christ as the Creator, that is what John heard. It has absolutely nothing to do with saints in heaven hearing the petitions of those on earth....unless, you think they're hearing the petitions of the animals also.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/2/2008 2:57:10 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1179
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quote:
You coulda just said "I don't agree with your interpretation"
I would never say that without having a reason for doing so. After all, I am a Protestant.
quote:
Just for arguments sake, even if I agree with you about this passage, it does not say Saints can't hear us and pray for us.
In fact, I'd like to turn the tables a bit and ask were in Scripture does it say Saints don't know about our struggles and pray for us?
The passage also doesn't say that you shouldn't go rob a 7-11, but I would say that's probably also a bad idea. If your sole support for praying to the saints is that the Bible doesn't say they can't hear us (despite it saying who to pray to, specifying the sole mediator, and threatening judgement for anyone trying to talk to the dead), then you might want to reconsider the practice.
1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."
Deuteronomy 18:9 "When you come into the land which the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you."
1 Chronicles 10:13 "So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance." (keep in mind he called up Samuel, who, as a prophet, would be the equivalent of a saint.)
Luke 11:1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.
2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
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The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/3/2008 10:20:16 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 914
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." Define "mediator" as Paul is using the term here (what is the Greek - what does it mean?). Then define "Intercessory Prayer".
quote:
or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. This is only relevant if a profession in Jesus as Lord and Savior leads us to eternal death...
quote:
And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
"First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4).
"I urge you, (brothers,) by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to join me in the struggle by your prayers to God on my behalf, that I may be delivered from the disobedient in Judea, and that my ministry for Jerusalem may be acceptable to the holy ones, so that I may come to you with joy by the will of God and be refreshed together with you." (Romans 15:30-32)
"With all prayer and supplication, pray at every opportunity in the Spirit. To that end, be watchful with all perseverance and supplication for all the holy ones and also for me, that speech may be given me to open my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel for which I am an ambassador in chains, so that I may have the courage to speak as I must." (Ephesians 6:18-20)
"Persevere in prayer, being watchful in it with thanksgiving; at the same time, pray for us, too, that God may open a door to us for the word, to speak of the mystery of Christ, for which I am in prison," (Colossians 4:2-3)
"The one who calls you is faithful, and he will also accomplish it. Brothers, pray for us (too)." (1 Thessolonians 5:24-25)
"Finally, brothers, pray for us, so that the word of the Lord may speed forward and be glorified, as it did among you," (2 Thessolonians 3:1)
"To this end, we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and powerfully bring to fulfillment every good purpose and every effort of faith," (2 Thessolonians 1:11)
Paul apparently has no problem with the concept of intercessory prayer. The only distinction you can throw at this is that those that have gone on to heaven are "dead". To which I reply - "No, they're not".
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 5/3/2008 10:26:31 AM >
_____________________________
...If Christian Doctrine were on trial, the Bible would be called as a witness. The Church serves as the judge...(Acts 15:28)
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/3/2008 12:42:59 PM
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Papa-san
Posts: 1087
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You people could twist 1 inch re-bar...
There is nothing in scripture that says those saints who have died and moved on can even hear you. All those quotes you gave are spoken/written to the living.
The idea that prayers to the saints and Mary are actually heard and passed on to Christ is nothing more than someone's fantasy that has been taught as fact, and the gullible believe it. They are in the darkness as far as it goes because that particular practice is forbidden by God.
Thus I sit here slowly shaking my head in disbelief, and including y'all in my prayers...
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/3/2008 1:19:00 PM
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authorcrat
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This is a good article from Timothy George, an ordained minister in the Southern Baptist Convention and dean of Beeson Divinity School of Samford University.
Evalengicals and the Mother of God
quote:
Evangelical retrieval of a proper biblical theology of Mary will give attention to five explicit aspects of her calling and ministry: Mary as the daughter of Israel, as the virgin mother of Jesus, as Theotokos, as the handmaiden of the Word, and as the mother of the Church.
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