|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/3/2008 3:13:36 PM
|
|
|
Catholicandloveit
Posts: 310
Joined: 1/3/2008
Status: offline
|
I have always thought that Rev 5 gives the best biblical proof that the saints in heaven offer prayers of others to God. If they hear them or not isn't specifically addressed in this chapter, my faith believes they can, but nonetheless they are offering others prayers, so even if they are not aware of the details of the prayers they are aware that others are praying and join them in these prayers.
Now - outside of scripture which supports this we have tradition which also supports this. To me finding support for something in both scripture and tradition is not being gullible, but your free to have any opinion you want of us people.
Peace,
Mary
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/3/2008 9:17:52 PM
|
|
|
kelman
Posts: 3718
Status: offline
|
quote:
Just for arguments sake, even if I agree with you about this passage, it does not say Saints can't hear us and pray for us.
In fact, I'd like to turn the tables a bit and ask were in Scripture does it say Saints don't know about our struggles and pray for us?
Hmm, an interesting method of coming to truth. From that excellent method we can ask where in the Bible does it say that God doesn't live on the planet KOLOB?
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/3/2008 10:34:47 PM
|
|
|
Mannamuncher
Posts: 2609
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
Just for arguments sake, even if I agree with you about this passage, it does not say Saints can't hear us and pray for us.
In fact, I'd like to turn the tables a bit and ask were in Scripture does it say Saints don't know about our struggles and pray for us?
Hmm, an interesting method of coming to truth. From that excellent method we can ask where in the Bible does it say that God doesn't live on the planet KOLOB?
Why are the saints interested in us anyway ?
They are in God's Holy Presence, before the
throne of The Great I AM, seated in Heavenlies.
And they are distracted by what I'm doing ?
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
If Jesus Christ came back today and saw what was being done in his name, he'd never stop throwing up.
Woody Allen
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/3/2008 10:51:39 PM
|
|
|
Papa-san
Posts: 1012
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
I have always thought that Rev 5 gives the best biblical proof that the saints in heaven offer prayers of others to God. If they hear them or not isn't specifically addressed in this chapter, my faith believes they can, but nonetheless they are offering others prayers, so even if they are not aware of the details of the prayers they are aware that others are praying and join them in these prayers. Well, Rev 5 really offers nothing in regards to it, so that might be a good reason to look a little more critically at the practice.quote:
Now - outside of scripture which supports this we have tradition which also supports this. To me finding support for something in both scripture and tradition is not being gullible, but your free to have any opinion you want of us people.
The traditions that religious men invented, that were outside the scope of scripture, are one of the things that Christ Himself was vehemently opposed to. Now if this practice (praying to Mary and these saints) really is something the apostles taught, don't you think it would have been one of the things they wrote down? If someone did write it down, why would God not want it included in His perfect and preserved word, so that we would know that this practice didn't violate His laws about praying to the dead? Seeing as the practice in question is eerily similar to those things He prohibited, it would stand to reason that He would make it clear to us.
I guess the pivotal point is whether we have faith in what Gods word says, or in what humans have said. I'm sorry, but with what Jesus did with the religious leaders of His day who had done things like this, I am going to go with the word. When I am standing before Him, I will be able to say that I followed His directions as He presented them to me in His written word; that I didn't do something that violated an earlier Law of His, based on the word of a fallible human religious leader dressed the same way as the Pharisees of old...
Uh-uh... Not going to take that chance. Especially when they use something like Revelations 5:13 to justify it. That verse, even taken completely out of context, doesn't even say anything close to what you want it to... I'm sorry. I cannot see anything there that would make me feel comfortable violating God's OT laws, especially based on someone's say-so... Someone with a history of inventing un-scriptural practices... No... I haven't been that high in many, many years...
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/4/2008 3:23:54 AM
|
|
|
kelman
Posts: 3718
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
Just for arguments sake, even if I agree with you about this passage, it does not say Saints can't hear us and pray for us.
In fact, I'd like to turn the tables a bit and ask were in Scripture does it say Saints don't know about our struggles and pray for us?
Hmm, an interesting method of coming to truth. From that excellent method we can ask where in the Bible does it say that God doesn't live on the planet KOLOB?
Why are the saints interested in us anyway ?
They are in God's Holy Presence, before the
throne of The Great I AM, seated in Heavenlies.
And they are distracted by what I'm doing ?
For sure there is no evidence saints in heaven are interested in us by listening to prayers offered to them. In fact, all the evidence points in the other direction. Scripture reveals angels have an interest in what goes on here and God does dispatch them as "ministering" spirits.....but, saints?....no, neither Christ or the Apostles give any evidence of that whatsoever nor does the entire OT.
They are in the presence of God in His holy heaven in what is suppose to be bliss where there is no sorrow or tears. What kind of "bliss" is it if they are dragged into the horrors of this earth?
Imagine, the arrogance or just ignorance of attempting to draw the saint's attention to one's self and away from the Lamb that redeemed them who is the true focus of heaven?
The only other instances of anyone other than God receiving the worship of prayer are false gods. Those who pray to saints have to totally ignore an awful lot of Scripture as they continue this practice....you have to wonder why they persist when they know the truth. I'm reminded of Jeremiah 44:16.
As for the word that you have spoken to us in the name of the LORD, we will not listen to you! But we will certainly do whatever has gone out of our own mouth, to burn incense to the queen of heaven and pour out drink offerings to her, as we have done, we and our fathers, our kings and our princes, in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/4/2008 4:38:05 AM
|
|
|
authorcrat
Posts: 54
Joined: 4/20/2008
Status: offline
|
Much has been said about the Bible, if it is not in it, then it is not the Word of God and not true. And this is of course what the Bible, the inerrant Word of God, says:
Revelation 5:8: "... the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."
Revelation 8:3-4 "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God."
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/4/2008 5:03:57 AM
|
|
|
kelman
Posts: 3718
Status: offline
|
And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. -Revelation 8:3-4
Verse 3,4 - these prayers are offered to God, not to anyone else - for the incense ascended up before God. The "incense" represents the prayers of the saints - it says so twice. Therefore, the incense does not represent the intercessory prayers of the angels or the elders in heaven.
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. -Revelation 5:8
Verse 8 – the elders in that passage are referred to as carrying the prayers to God, not as the recipients of the prayers. And besides, who are these "saints", those on earth or already in heaven? We can't know. Obviously, if we don't know who the saints are, we don't know whose prayers are being referenced. Just as when the angels in Rev 16:2 are carrying “bowls of wrath” are we to conclude that the angels therefore are the recipients of the wrath? Of course not.
There is no evidence from these verses, or anywhere else in the Bible for that matter, that anyone but God is to be the recipient of prayer. They provide no help for the RC position. What a terribly dangerous doctrine to participate in when God is clear He alone is worthy of prayer.
In addition, we see ECF’s, some anyway, commenting on Rev 5:8. They refer to the prayers as being offered to God, not to the elders. We see this in Irenaeus (Against Heresies, 4:17:6-4:18:1), Origen (Against Celsus, 8:17), and Methodius (The Banquet of the Ten Virgins, 5:8).
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/4/2008 5:08:47 AM
|
|
|
authorcrat
Posts: 54
Joined: 4/20/2008
Status: offline
|
No one said the prayers were not to God. You are missing the point.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/4/2008 1:38:25 PM
|
|
|
Doghouse
Posts: 910
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
|
quote:
No one said the prayers were not to God. You are missing the point. To further this point...
Do people here believe that God DOES NOT hear prayers that are not formatted a certain way or addressed a certain way? To trod further down this path, is it possible to pray in such a way that God has no knowledge of it? Or, is it possible to do anything anywhere and keep it hidden from God?
The point being that by asking for the prayers of the Saints, Catholics ARE worshipping God and acknowledging His blessings and Grace by appealing to the particular way in which these gifts were realized or displayed in the life, choices and actions of the subject Saint. Why are we told that the prayers of the righteous are powerful; doesn't this presume that the prayers of the not-so-righteous are weak?
And if we are in such a weak state, do we not help ourselves to ask God for His favor and blessings - and invoke the reflection of a particular Saint in this request?
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/4/2008 2:50:47 PM
|
|
|
1love1God1way
Posts: 2190
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
No one said the prayers were not to God. You are missing the point. To further this point...
Do people here believe that God DOES NOT hear prayers that are not formatted a certain way or addressed a certain way?
Prayers to demons? Well, I'm sure He hears. . . but I can't say He will answer them. . .
It's a long way down the rabbit hole, but you get the point. . .
_____________________________
love.ben
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/4/2008 3:14:10 PM
|
|
|
authorcrat
Posts: 54
Joined: 4/20/2008
Status: offline
|
Ben,
I will venture with this answer. God is sovereign of all creatures, He hears everything. The devil cannot do anything about anything unless he gets permission from God. Remember Job.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/4/2008 3:15:33 PM
|
|
|
Papa-san
Posts: 1012
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline
|
I believe He will respond to those prayers, but it won't likely be a good response! That's what the problem with prayers to saints is... God really doesn't like it when people pray to other entities, and His word is full of examples of this... Why risk it based on the word of humans in an office that has been proven to have contained many men who truly were not after Gods heart!
Mind-boggling!
< Message edited by Papa-san -- 5/4/2008 3:21:52 PM >
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/4/2008 3:30:36 PM
|
|
|
authorcrat
Posts: 54
Joined: 4/20/2008
Status: offline
|
So Papa-san, what is your position?
You seem to think that God answers prayers through the devil, but not the Saints. Does He prefer to listen only to evil prayers and not to saintly prayers?
You don't think the Creator can tell the difference and isn't capable of reading the hearts of His Creatures? What kind of a God do you think He is, an insufficuent one?
Regardless of how you pray and where you direct it, He knows what is in your heart and He knows it is He you are pleading to in the end -- because it is only He who could answer prayers. He is God.
< Message edited by authorcrat -- 5/4/2008 3:37:05 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/4/2008 3:55:45 PM
|
|
|
Zhi
Posts: 1321
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: offline
|
I think we could ask you the same question. Is God so insufficient that He needs you to pray through Saints just so He will pay attention to your requests?
If you know you're pleading to God in the end, why not just plead to Him in the beginning? It's faster, simpler, more efficient, and less likely to incur His wrath.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/4/2008 7:52:02 PM
|
|
|
gatolover
Posts: 544
Joined: 6/23/2006
Status: offline
|
Hi Zhi,
quote:
Is God so insufficient that He needs you to pray through Saints just so He will pay attention to your requests?
Of course not. Catholic Christians serve a God who is so incredibly loving, giving, and selfless that He said:
"This is my commandment: LOVE ONE ANOTHER AS I LOVE YOU." John 15:12
Pretty straightforward, IMHO. There is no selfishness among God's children, or at least, there shouldn't be. One Body, One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism.
And as St. Paul wrote in 1Cor. 13:13 [after his exposition on the characteristics of true godly love]:
So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Faith and hope give way at the realization of the Beatific Vision, but love always remains. Without love, the selfless love of Jesus Christ Himself manifest in His Saints, there would be no one able to stand in His Presence.
I am more assured of the love, care, and prayers of the Saints [the spirits of the just made perfect..see Hebrews] who stand in the Presence of God than any half-hearted "prayer warrior" wannabe in a pew and their promise of prayer.
quote:
If you know you're pleading to God in the end, why not just plead to Him in the beginning? It's faster, simpler, more efficient, and less likely to incur His wrath.
I can't imagine a faith that would incline someone to think they serve a God who would be invoked to "WRATH" because His children love, respect, and invoke each other. "Faster, simpler, more efficient?" That's odd...I always approached my life in Christ as a journey, not a drive-thru.
For what it's worth.
gatolover
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/4/2008 9:09:23 PM
|
|
|
kielbasa
Posts: 165
Joined: 6/1/2005
Status: offline
|
Who rejoices in Heaven when a sinner comes to repentence?
_____________________________
"This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/4/2008 9:30:42 PM
|
|
|
ukfan
Posts: 329
Joined: 12/31/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
quote:
You coulda just said "I don't agree with your interpretation"
I would never say that without having a reason for doing so. After all, I am a Protestant.
quote:
Just for arguments sake, even if I agree with you about this passage, it does not say Saints can't hear us and pray for us.
In fact, I'd like to turn the tables a bit and ask were in Scripture does it say Saints don't know about our struggles and pray for us?
The passage also doesn't say that you shouldn't go rob a 7-11, but I would say that's probably also a bad idea. If your sole support for praying to the saints is that the Bible doesn't say they can't hear us (despite it saying who to pray to, specifying the sole mediator, and threatening judgement for anyone trying to talk to the dead), then you might want to reconsider the practice.
1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."
As Doghouse already pointed out, your usage of this verse to defend your objection to Catholic prayer is misplaced. Catholics do not equate Saints with God and do not consider them equals in any way. Saints do not "mediate" between God and man in any way different than the saints on earth do when they pray for you. Either Scripture contains a contradition by commanding us to ask saints on earth to mediate (pray for us) and them claiming Jesus is the only mediator or your interpretation of this verse is wrong.
quote:
Deuteronomy 18:9 "When you come into the land which the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you."
This is necromancy. Catholics do not practice necromancy.
quote:
1 Chronicles 10:13 "So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance." (keep in mind he called up Samuel, who, as a prophet, would be the equivalent of a saint.)
Last time I checked my Catechism, Catholics were called to not contact mediums and such.
quote:
Luke 11:1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.
2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
You know Catholics pray this at every Mass right?
_____________________________
"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church...." -ARCHBISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/4/2008 9:36:27 PM
|
|
|
ukfan
Posts: 329
Joined: 12/31/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
Just for arguments sake, even if I agree with you about this passage, it does not say Saints can't hear us and pray for us.
In fact, I'd like to turn the tables a bit and ask were in Scripture does it say Saints don't know about our struggles and pray for us?
Hmm, an interesting method of coming to truth. From that excellent method we can ask where in the Bible does it say that God doesn't live on the planet KOLOB?
Why are the saints interested in us anyway ?
They are in God's Holy Presence, before the
throne of The Great I AM, seated in Heavenlies.
And they are distracted by what I'm doing ?
Is praying for fellow Christians a distraction? Wanting others to share in the joy they have is distracting?
_____________________________
"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church...." -ARCHBISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/4/2008 9:41:11 PM
|
|
|
ukfan
Posts: 329
Joined: 12/31/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
I think we could ask you the same question. Is God so insufficient that He needs you to pray through Saints just so He will pay attention to your requests?
If you know you're pleading to God in the end, why not just plead to Him in the beginning? It's faster, simpler, more efficient, and less likely to incur His wrath.
I can't see your logic.
Is God so insufficient that you need to ask other Christians on earth to pray for you? Why not just plead to him in the beginning?
_____________________________
"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church...." -ARCHBISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/5/2008 12:04:04 AM
|
|
|
Zhi
Posts: 1321
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: offline
|
I have to get up at 5am to drive my husband to the airport, so I'm going to have to make this short:
I'm not sure what a long commentary on love has to do with praying to the saints. Since we haven't established any precedence showing that they can even hear you, their motivation seems a bit of a moot point.
I, too, consider my Christian life as a journey, but it's a journey with Christ, and I talk to Him directly, rather than relying on a massive host of intermediaries. My marriage wouldn't be doing very well if I called our friend Derrick every time I wanted to tell my husband something and asked him to pass it on. Relationships just don't work that way.
I ask Christians on earth to pray with me because a) I know they can hear me because they're standing right there listening, b) we're directly instructed to "bear one another's burdens", and c) they often come through with God-given advice and perspective that I very much need. There is nothing in Scripture to indicate that dead saints can hear us, no instruction to speak to them in Scripture, and dead people don't generally give advice (at least to sane people).
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/5/2008 2:55:05 AM
|
|
|
kelman
Posts: 3718
Status: offline
|
quote:
No one said the prayers were not to God. You are missing the point.
Actually, the point is praying to saints and Mary is not praying to God.
And, neither Rev 8:34 or 5:8 offer any support to the practice of praying to or petitioning saints. It simply does not address that issue.
quote:
The point being that by asking for the prayers of the Saints, Catholics ARE worshipping God.... That is a convoluted, disingenuous and desperate attempt to justify a doctrine for which Scripture will offer no credence and, in fact, denies.
quote:
Regardless of how you pray and where you direct it, He knows what is in your heart and He knows it is He you are pleading to in the end -- because it is only He who could answer prayers. He is God.
Rather naively you state it doesn't matter to whom one addresses prayer. If that were true, one would expect at least "one" prayer directed to someone other than God. But, other than prayers directed to the idols of pagans, we don't find even "one" in all of Scripture. That ought to give pause to anyone involved in such a practice. Clearly only God is worthy of prayer, that is the only conclusion Scripture will permit.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/5/2008 2:56:15 AM
|
|
|
kelman
Posts: 3718
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: kielbasa
Who rejoices in Heaven when a sinner comes to repentence?
Angels.
"Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.""
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/5/2008 3:25:24 AM
|
|
|
kelman
Posts: 3718
Status: offline
|
quote:
Either Scripture contains a contradition by commanding us to ask saints on earth to mediate (pray for us) and them claiming Jesus is the only mediator or your interpretation of this verse is wrong. Regardless of "interpretation" you can find no place in Scripture where it is permitted to pray to anyone but God - you just won't find it.
These types of statements are used only to veil and obscure the facts. Asking a person here on earth to pray for you is NOT praying to that person. But, it is precisely what is done when in the throes of praying to saints. And, since God does not condone such a practice, you pray to saints instead of God at your own risk.
quote:
Is praying for fellow Christians a distraction? Wanting others to share in the joy they have is distracting? Nothing but misleading, absurd platitudes - that's all that's ever offered. Scripture says "Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another.
Clearly, James is speaking to those presently alive. Since this is a passage used to support the practice of praying to saints, are we now expected to believe that the saints are confessing their sins TO you; and, that you are praying FOR the saints.......are they and do you?
Simply another verse offered which has no relevance, absolutely no connection to the issue of praying to saints.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/5/2008 11:16:02 AM
|
|
|
kielbasa
Posts: 165
Joined: 6/1/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: kielbasa
Who rejoices in Heaven when a sinner comes to repentence?
Angels.
"Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.""
Thank you, Mr. Kelman.
Now, who is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God?
_____________________________
"This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/5/2008 6:18:29 PM
|
|
|
kelman
Posts: 3718
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: kielbasa
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: kielbasa
Who rejoices in Heaven when a sinner comes to repentence?
Angels.
"Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.""
Thank you, Mr. Kelman.
Now, who is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God?
Sigh...check out the meaning of "in the presence" - Enopion. If and when you do you will find it means: before a) of occupied place: in that place which is before, or over against, opposite, any one and towards which another turns his eyes.
It is translated "before" 64 times, "in (one's) presence", 2 times ; "in (one's) sight", 5 times ; "in the presence of", 7 times ; "in the sight of", 16 times;
And if and when you check out the other places it is translated "in the presence of", you will again find its more than obvious meaning.
.....and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. -Revelation 14:10
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
