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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 12/15/2007 8:32:10 PM
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gatolover
Posts: 560
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Dear DeborahL,
quote:
The gospel of God never teaches that Mary 'ascended'.
Nor does the Catholic Church, for that matter. Looks like we're on the same page.
Pax Christi,
gatolover
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 12/15/2007 8:39:21 PM
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DeborahL
Posts: 1347
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Great gato-no ascension, no assumption.
Gee then no need for The May Pole that I twirled around and the parade for her when I was in catholic elemenatry training...
grace and peace
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 12/15/2007 10:31:14 PM
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gatolover
Posts: 560
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Deborah,
quote:
Great gato-no ascension, no assumption.
Surely you understand the difference between "ascension" and "assumption," right? Christ, our Lord, ascended by His own power, the Blessed Mother was assumed by His Power.
quote:
Gee then no need for The May Pole that I twirled around and the parade for her when I was in catholic elemenatry training...
I have no idea what poles you've "twirled around," Deborah, nor do I care. I'm also not a big fan of parades, though I must admit, I've never witnessed a "parade" in honor of the Mother of our Lord. Personally, I stay away from parades, and poles, for that matter.
Peace,
gatolover
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 12/16/2007 3:09:47 PM
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PeterD
Posts: 433
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Hello gatolover!
May I ask you about this scripture passage and how it is related to the assumption of Mary?
John 3:13 (ESV)
13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
PeterD
< Message edited by PeterD -- 12/16/2007 4:59:09 PM >
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 12/17/2007 9:06:18 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 841
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: online
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quote:
May I ask you about this scripture passage and how it is related to the assumption of Mary?
John 3:13 (ESV)
13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
Sorry to butt in. It may have been true at the time this was spoken, no one had ascended to heaven. If your interpretation is correct, then no one goes to heaven - ever.
Mary was assumed. That is different. It speakes to the ability of you and I to get into heaven; that even in our fleshy suits, we are capable of heaven - there is nothing inherently wrong with flesh, but merely with the way it is operated by ourselves.
_____________________________
"Stop judging and you will not be judged. Stop condemning and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven. Give and gifts will be given to you;...For the measure with which you measure will in return be measured out to you."
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 12/17/2007 4:29:31 PM
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WesP
Posts: 1761
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gatolover
Still_Papa-san,
quote:
AWRIGHT!!!! Woo Hoo!!!! You finally caught on!!! (This is SO exciting!)
I'm confident Lurker is thrilled with your enthusiasm, however, I'm afraid you misunderstood his point....again.
quote:
The only difference between them and Mary is that their assumption is factual because it is written about in Gods word... If she had been assumed into heaven, God would have included her assumption just like theirs!
She was still alive and present in the Faith Community at Pentacost, and why would the evangelists write about an assumption that hadn't occurred yet? Are you saying nothing is "factual" that isn't recorded in Scripture? What about the fact the Earth orbits around the Sun? Is that factual? Are you saying you don't believe the Earth is round, rotates, and revolves? Must not be true since it isn't recorded in Scripture.
quote:
(However, He didn't, which means that she wasn't...
And that statement is just another "assumption" on your part, "Still_Papa San."
Good luck proving your own "assumptions" from Scripture alone or anywhere else, for that matter.
gatolover
Another Protestant assumption: "I assume Mary is in heaven." 
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them!
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 12/17/2007 6:40:33 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 494
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We have no evidence that Mary is assumed into Heaven. So we are to leave that alone.
“we have no knowledge of the death of Mary, the mother of Christ. Sarah alone has this glory, that the definite number of her years, the time of her death, and the place of her burial are described. Therefore this is great praise and very sure proof that she was precious in the eyes of God."
Martin Luther
http://www.ntrmin.org/Luthers%20Theology%20of%20Mary.htm#V
Because we have no knowledge of what happened at Mary's death, this only proves that she was precious in the sight of God.
Your sister in Chrsit Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 12/17/2007 9:31:19 PM
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DeborahL
Posts: 1347
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Dear Gatol:
me: Great gato-no ascension, no assumption.
you: Surely you understand the difference between "ascension" and "assumption," right? Christ, our Lord, ascended by His own power, the Blessed Mother was assumed by His Power.
me: No, Christ our Lord did NOT ascend BY his own power.
HE WAS RAISED BY THE FATHER. {CAP FOR EMP :)}...hmmm can also say assumed AND ascended.
Mary was not ever recorded as "assumed by Christ". The burden is to proove that His word did.
Me: Gee then no need for The May Pole that I twirled around and the parade for her when I was in catholic elemenatry training...
You: I have no idea what poles you've "twirled around," Deborah, nor do I care.
me: :) LOL--a fanciful tradition..but no Truth, and I knew it.
I did this for four years in re to the assumption parade of "Mary"in May at my church in the USA--and her role with God.
you: I'm also not a big fan of parades, though I must admit, I've never witnessed a "parade" in honor of the Mother of our Lord. Personally, I stay away from parades, and poles, for that matter.
me: Likewise, I left that to the diocese..thirty years ago.
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 12/17/2007 9:40:21 PM
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PeterD
Posts: 433
Joined: 4/27/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
May I ask you about this scripture passage and how it is related to the assumption of Mary?
John 3:13 (ESV)
13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
Sorry to butt in. It may have been true at the time this was spoken, no one had ascended to heaven. If your interpretation is correct, then no one goes to heaven - ever.
Mary was assumed. That is different. It speakes to the ability of you and I to get into heaven; that even in our fleshy suits, we are capable of heaven - there is nothing inherently wrong with flesh, but merely with the way it is operated by ourselves.
Hello Doghouse!
My question is what then did the Apostle Paul say this for in....
2 Timothy 2:15-18
15Carefully study to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they grow much towards ungodliness.
17And their speech spreadeth like a canker: of whom are Hymeneus and Philetus:
18Who have erred from the truth, saying, that the resurrection is past already, and have subverted the faith of some. (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)
Wouldn't this same thing that the Apostle Paul said also apply to Mary?
PeterD
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 12/18/2007 12:51:29 AM
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PeterD
Posts: 433
Joined: 4/27/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
May I ask you about this scripture passage and how it is related to the assumption of Mary?
John 3:13 (ESV)
13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
Sorry to butt in. It may have been true at the time this was spoken, no one had ascended to heaven. If your interpretation is correct, then no one goes to heaven - ever.
Mary was assumed. That is different. It speakes to the ability of you and I to get into heaven; that even in our fleshy suits, we are capable of heaven - there is nothing inherently wrong with flesh, but merely with the way it is operated by ourselves.
Hello Doghouse!
John 3:10-13
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou the teacher of Israel, and understandest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that which we know, and bear witness of that which we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I told you earthly things and ye believe not, how shall ye believe if I tell you heavenly things?
13 And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven. (ASV)
Jesus spoke these words for all time!!!
John 6:39
39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.(ESV)
John 6:40
40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."(ESV)
John 6:44
44No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.(ESV)
John 6:54
54Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.(ESV)
John 11:24
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
(ASV)
Now what is the last day?
John 12:48
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my sayings, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I spake, the same shall judge him in the last day.(ASV)
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
The Coming of the Lord
13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.
Matthew 9:24
24he said, "Go away, for the girl is not dead but sleeping." And they laughed at him.(ESV)
John 11:11-15
The Death of Lazarus
11After saying these things, he said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him." 12The disciples said to him, "Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover." 13Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. 14Then Jesus told them plainly, "Lazarus has died, 15and for your sake I am glad that I was not there, so that you may believe.
What does the Holy Spirit teach about waiting for one another in all the wonderful passages in this post?
Peter Daniel
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 12/18/2007 9:23:22 PM
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DeborahL
Posts: 1347
Joined: 4/11/2005
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DOGHOUSE;
"Mary was assumed."
Please give us God's word testifiying to this gospel. ..The reason for him doing so.
grace and peace
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 12/18/2007 9:54:20 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 841
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: online
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quote:
"Mary was assumed." Please give us God's word testifiying to this gospel. ..The reason for him doing so. Where is Mary buried? Knowing the early Church's propensity for relics and the sums of money raised by excavators and other forms of grave robbers in this pursuit, I would think the bones of Mary would be quite the prize indeed. We have relics of just about all the Apostles (Locations of relics), Mary Magdelene (in Constantinople), etc.
Where's Mary?
I don't need a Gospel verse to help me out with common sense...
_____________________________
"Stop judging and you will not be judged. Stop condemning and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven. Give and gifts will be given to you;...For the measure with which you measure will in return be measured out to you."
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 12/18/2007 10:04:02 PM
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Papa-san
Posts: 1107
Joined: 4/12/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
"Mary was assumed." Please give us God's word testifiying to this gospel. ..The reason for him doing so. Where is Mary buried? Knowing the early Church's propensity for relics and the sums of money raised by excavators and other forms of grave robbers in this pursuit, I would think the bones of Mary would be quite the prize indeed. We have relics of just about all the Apostles (Locations of relics), Mary Magdelene (in Constantinople), etc.
Where's Mary?
I don't need a Gospel verse to help me out with common sense...
So are you going to answer her question?
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 12/18/2007 10:09:37 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 841
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: online
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quote:
My question is what then did the Apostle Paul say this for in....2 Timothy 2:15-18
Kudos for quoting Douay-Rheims...
I guess I don't get the question.
For those who dispute about mere words (2 Tim 2:23-24) and indulge in irreligious talk to the detriment of their listeners (2 Tim 2:16-19), this has references in heretical teachers and in forms of gnosticism that were beginning to spring up, even in Paul's time (see 1 Tim 6:20-21 for example). Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Tim 2:17), while accepting the Christian's mystical death and resurrection in Christ through baptism, claimed that baptized Christians are already risen with Christ in this life and thus that there is no future bodily resurrection or eternal glory to come. The first quotation in 2 Tim 2:19 is from Numbers 16:5; the other quotation is from some unidentified Jewish or Christian writing.
What does this have to do with Mary? Mary resides in heaven hopefully the way you and I will someday in the future. By grace - through faith - with love, mercy and charity.
_____________________________
"Stop judging and you will not be judged. Stop condemning and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven. Give and gifts will be given to you;...For the measure with which you measure will in return be measured out to you."
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 12/18/2007 11:56:11 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 494
Joined: 4/16/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
"Mary was assumed." Please give us God's word testifiying to this gospel. ..The reason for him doing so. Where is Mary buried? Knowing the early Church's propensity for relics and the sums of money raised by excavators and other forms of grave robbers in this pursuit, I would think the bones of Mary would be quite the prize indeed. We have relics of just about all the Apostles (Locations of relics), Mary Magdelene (in Constantinople), etc.
Where's Mary?
I don't need a Gospel verse to help me out with common sense...
Hello doghouse!
Remember, God himself buried Moses, and Moses' burial site is unknown to this day. But remember, he died. But his body is nowhere to be found accrding to what it says in the book of Jude
Jude
9But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you." (ESV)
Same goes with Mary's death since she is precious in the eyes of God.
But apart from Moses and Mary, it is important to know where Jesus is sitting first.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 12/19/2007 8:48:07 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 841
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: online
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quote:
Perhaps, God ensured that certain bodies would not be available because He knows that people would make them more than they should be, IOW -- idols. According to some here...that plan worked out great, didn't it?
_____________________________
"Stop judging and you will not be judged. Stop condemning and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven. Give and gifts will be given to you;...For the measure with which you measure will in return be measured out to you."
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 12/19/2007 11:42:52 AM
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JesKlu
Posts: 494
Joined: 4/16/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
Perhaps, God ensured that certain bodies would not be available because He knows that people would make them more than they should be, IOW -- idols. According to some here...that plan worked out great, didn't it?
Outside of the present discussion: do you think that is a possibility?
Inside this discussion: it is irrelevant. I was just posing a possibility respecting your question of where Mary's body is/was located. 
Good to "see" you, DH!
Hello WeSavedByGrace!
I know I am not doghouse, but I did my resaearch on Mary's tomb and that only proved to me more that Mary's body was hidden by God.
There are estimates of about 5 different places where she could've been buried. See. Mary was precious in God's sight, and God did not want Satan to mess around with her body.
The 5 different places where it is said for Mary's tomb to be are:
Valley of Cedron near Jerusalem, Ephesus, Jerusalem, Gethsemane, and valley of Josaphat.
You might want to read the whole article on New Advent. But you will get the conclusion that nobody knows for sure where Mary was buried. So, I believe, that God hid her body.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14774a.htm
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 12/19/2007 12:04:50 PM
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WesP
Posts: 1761
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
Perhaps, God ensured that certain bodies would not be available because He knows that people would make them more than they should be, IOW -- idols. According to some here...that plan worked out great, didn't it?
Outside of the present discussion: do you think that is a possibility?
Inside this discussion: it is irrelevant. I was just posing a possibility respecting your question of where Mary's body is/was located.
Good to "see" you, DH!
Hello WeSavedByGrace!
I know I am not doghouse, but I did my resaearch on Mary's tomb and that only proved to me more that Mary's body was hidden by God.
There are estimates of about 5 different places where she could've been buried. See. Mary was precious in God's sight, and God did not want Satan to mess around with her body.
The 5 different places where it is said for Mary's tomb to be are:
Valley of Cedron near Jerusalem, Ephesus, Jerusalem, Gethsemane, and valley of Josaphat.
You might want to read the whole article on New Advent. But you will get the conclusion that nobody knows for sure where Mary was buried. So, I believe, that God hid her body.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14774a.htm
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
Hey, Jessica!
I believe He did, too. 
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them!
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 12/19/2007 2:43:17 PM
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Papa-san
Posts: 1107
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
Perhaps, God ensured that certain bodies would not be available because He knows that people would make them more than they should be, IOW -- idols. According to some here...that plan worked out great, didn't it?
No, it could have been better, but can you imagine what would have happened if you guys actually had her skull?!? I can't even imagine the rituals that would have been invented to worship her then...
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 12/19/2007 3:07:25 PM
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PeterD
Posts: 433
Joined: 4/27/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
Perhaps, God ensured that certain bodies would not be available because He knows that people would make them more than they should be, IOW -- idols. According to some here...that plan worked out great, didn't it?
No, it could have been better, but can you imagine what would have happened if you guys actually had her skull?!? I can't even imagine the rituals that would have been invented to worship her then...
Hello
Let us be careful with what we know about this knowledge on the Assumption of Mary.
Proverbs 24:17-18
17 Do not rejoice when your enemy falls,
and let not your heart be glad when he stumbles,
18lest the LORD see it and be displeased,
and turn away his anger from him.(ESV)
PeterD
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 12/19/2007 8:52:18 PM
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DeborahL
Posts: 1347
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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"Mary was assumed." Please give us God's word testifiying to this gospel. ..The reason for him doing so. Where is Mary buried? Knowing the early Church's propensity for relics and the sums of money raised by excavators and other forms of grave robbers in this pursuit, I would think the bones of Mary would be quite the prize indeed. We have relics of just about all the Apostles (Locations of relics), Mary Magdelene (in Constantinople), etc.
Where's Mary?
I don't need a Gospel verse to help me out with common sense..."
WHoa**************...... .....
Well ALL I need is the gospel of our Lord.
AND YOU have clearly refused God's Word here. Imho
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 12/19/2007 9:50:32 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 494
Joined: 4/16/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PeterD
quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
Perhaps, God ensured that certain bodies would not be available because He knows that people would make them more than they should be, IOW -- idols. According to some here...that plan worked out great, didn't it?
No, it could have been better, but can you imagine what would have happened if you guys actually had her skull?!? I can't even imagine the rituals that would have been invented to worship her then...
Hello
Let us be careful with what we know about this knowledge on the Assumption of Mary.
Proverbs 24:17-18
17 Do not rejoice when your enemy falls,
and let not your heart be glad when he stumbles,
18lest the LORD see it and be displeased,
and turn away his anger from him.(ESV)
PeterD
Hello to whom this may concern!
In this proverb that PeterD gave, I notice that I should take note of this. Because I too came from the Roman Catholic Church and when I was in prayer through the way the Roman Catholics pray, I was very sensitive to anyone who spoke harshly about Mary, like some here have just done. If I were you, I would also take notice of this proverb because we all know what bullying words are like. I am concerned for a healing to happen.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 12/20/2007 10:16:39 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 841
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: online
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quote:
Outside of the present discussion: do you think that is a possibility? It becomes an unprovable statement of faith - one way or the other.
Kind of like Tachyons (Google this if you don't know what these are...)
If God hid Mary, did He hide her in heaven...? Is that possibility on the list?
A lot of these discussions are getting a bit silly in the details and semantics.
For this Catholic, all of the press on Mary has to do with what I can hope for in the fulfillment of God's promises for mere mortal souls such as mine, and such as yours. Mary was mere flesh and bones, just like me. But by the power of God's grace, she was prepared and kept to bear our Savior, and when her earthly time was finished, her pristine person was assumed into heaven.
Where are all those 'rapture' folks in the "End Times" thread when you need them?
_____________________________
"Stop judging and you will not be judged. Stop condemning and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven. Give and gifts will be given to you;...For the measure with which you measure will in return be measured out to you."
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