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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 11/3/2007 1:27:54 PM
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Geocacher301
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JerrynDolli
quote:
'm going to read that book. However, I am of the belief system. Don't talk about it to eachother. Go to the source. Write Joshua Harris and inquire what can he do to help in this situation of misunderstanding. If these people are looking up to Him as the end all and expert. Then maybe the will listen to is statement of the errors and the correct means to replace the erroneous teachings that does not apply.
Look God did many miracles in various way, He healed in various ways. You can not put God in a box. Continue to allow God The Holy Spirit... His instruction book the Bible lead our day... not books written with limited finiteness... when we all see dimly. Again, maybe you should write to Josh and ask him what is to replace the sections which are applicable to various age groups. I'm sure he would write you back.
Dolli
FYI, I did email Joshua Harris a number of times. The only email I ever received back was a message from his secretary. My guess is that he never received the messages. It would not surprise me if due to his getting so much criticism that he isn't that open to constructive criticism. It didn't help that his book was such a big seller for him to think that there was anything wrong with it.
Thus he certainly didn't write me back etc. as you thought he would. It would be more useful if this discussion could get directly to him.
I agree that things many times should first be shared with the person vs. shared publicly. Are you saying that we shouldn't be posting here on this thread to discuss the book are are you more concerned with my pointing out how little if any responsibility he accepted for misapplications of his book?
I definitely feel that people posting here and sharing their thoughts about this system is something valid and useful. Discussions such as this are helpful in sorting out how much if any of this you want to apply. I think is also good that people point out what problems have occurred with this approach since Joshua Harris for whatever reason failed to acknowledge this at all. From the posts on this thread it is quite obvious that what he promotes isn't the perfect system.
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 11/3/2007 3:05:50 PM
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JerrynDolli
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Dear Fredriqua,
I am Dolli's husband, the spouse who read and applied the book you're referring to. I've read your statements below and I can understand why you may feel the way do. Allow me to reason through some of your personal justifications for beliefs about the concept of dating. Maybe what I write will not make sense, and maybe it will. But let's reason through your position. Let me just begin by saying that my objective here is not to convince you you're wrong, but only to open your mind to the position of courtship.
quote:
I'm not sure why this whole topic is so frustrating to me, but it IS. And I've been happily married for the better part of 10 years, so it shouldn't matter.
First let me congratulate you and your husband for 10 happy years of marriage.
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Perhaps that's exactly WHY the whole "courtship is a spiritually superior (and more Biblical) method of finding a spouse" bugs me so much--because I KNOW from my own experiences that this is not necessarily true.
Lets start with some logical questions. How old is the dating concept? How old is the courtship concept? Which one is older? Why has dating replaced courtship?
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Moreover, when a church embraces such a social experiment as wholeheartedly as our small congregation has, it basically means that if you (and your kids) are the lone holdouts for normal, casual (but of course chaste) dating, then your kids pretty much are going to be loners.
If courtship is older than dating, why would it be today considered a social experiment? Wouldn't dating be more the social experiment? And if we were to look at both as an experiment, which practice has been found to be most successful? Why?
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In other words, my church may not come down OFFICIALLY on the side of "courtship only," but they might as well. It might as well be in their statement of faith. Because, it's the REALITY. There's nobody who doesn't think like that. If you try to attend a church where the courtship mentality has taken hold, you're not going to get to go out for ice cream with a boy you like at the age of 16 or 17. And you're going to get looked down upon as less holy if you have a romantic relationship when you're 20. That's the REALITY.
Lets talk about "romance". First of all lets define romance. What biblically does romance mean? We usually find this in commands. If we were to look at the word "love" for instance, is it described as a noun or is it a verb? More than often we find in scripture that love is a verb. The feelings of romance, we in our "modern" culture, oftern confuse that with the verb, when feelings are nothing less than a noun or a description of how one feels at a particular moment in time. Fellings come. And feelings go. What context do we find romance in scripture? Its usually found toward or in marriage.
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Yet, another reality is that the courtship mentality has turned ANY one-on-one interaction with a member of the opposite sex into a BIG deal, an almost forbidden thing. And I think that's horribly unhealthy.
If we were to answer the earlier questions again, which "social experiment" has had the best result, which would you say? Why?
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Think about it. You're a young lady of 22 or 23, and you've never been in a romantic relationship. You've never gone through the process of attracting a young man's attention, getting to know him, "falling" for him, having him reciprocate those feelings, and then discovering that you know, he's just not all that you're looking for in a spouse. So you break up. That's a HEALTHY process...one that helped me immensely to know and recognize the "real thing" when I found it in my now-husband.
Are we saying here that personal experience and following your heart in finding a mate has proven more effective than listening to reason? How many of us have fallen into the trap of losing all sense of reason for the sake of emotion when it comes to sharing your inner most being, your feelings, your dreams, your desires, your passions with a stranger? Yes - a stranger. If one has not grown up with the person, or knows much of that person's history, their habits (good or bad), the people they associate with, the books they read, the environment the person grew up in, the traditions they celebrate as well as frown on, the values they hold fast to, their likes and dislikes - then yes - that person is a stranger.
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But someone bound up in courtship...well, first of all, they view this process as something inherently evil, to be avoided no matter what. Then, they have highly unrealistic ideals about how they're going to build their relationships on a "spiritual" foundation BEFORE they allow themselves to be attracted.
Did Ruth take this route? Or did any one woman in biblical times take this route? Ruth, though out of the courtship scene for some time, decided to take the advce of her mother in law. Mary, the mother of our Lord, followed the leading of God's messengers, when in a most precarious situation. Rahab, though a harlot, found favor in God's eyes and was obviously wed to an Isrealite because Jesus came from her lineage. I believe we can agree that the concept of modern day dating is much younger than orginal concept, or what I would like to refer to as the method of finding a mate.
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That's not even honest or realistic. We're still human beings, after all, and unless we're BLIND, we're going to know whether or not we're attracted to a person, even if we've never heard them pray or discuss spiritual matters. That's just plain silly, to create this artificial process, this false division between our spiritual selves and our human inclinations.
To learn from our mistakes, we must understand our past. Yes, I agree, we are human. And yes, I agree, we're not blind to the visual attraction of others. However, wouldn't you agree that it becomes just as silly not to look at why our modern day culture has failed in keeping to God's covenant of marriage? And why are we compromising our values for the sake of fitting into this modern day culture?
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Think about how ponderous and heavy and SERIOUS it is when, at long last, a young man DOES decide to pay attention to a young lady. First he must gain the approval of the girl's father. The whole family now becomes involved in the process. What is the girl's natural reaction going to be? Of COURSE she's going to be heavily motivated to continue with the relationship, whether or not the guy is ACTUALLY a good match for her. She's been trained to think that allowing herself to "become emotionally involved" is not spiritual and is in fact harmful. So ending a courtship is a much bigger deal than ending a casual dating relationship would be.
This is where we as parents become the example, the guide, the couselor for our children's future. Helping our children to understand the importance of this covenant called marriage is too important to leave it to chance. We owe it to our children and their future, just as we owe them a proper education to be financially independent from mom and dad. God has given us that responsibility. Jesus taught his followers to be in the world - not of it.
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Plus, since a courtship involves "pursuing a relationship with the intent of marriage," and the girl has little perspective about what sort of young man she'd actually be compatible with, these girls are primed and ready for the relationship to get serious. I mean--it's actually already serious, by definition.
So then ask yourself this important question. What is the purpose of dating? Based upon upon your argument, it is to experience all the emotion of falling love with a person. Is this not true?
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There's a total lack of perspective on relationships in the courtship system. That's why it produces very few marriages and DOES produce a bunch of socially immature single adults.
Perspective. Lets look at that word. Perpective, according to the Webster dictionary, means point of view or the proper relative position of objects or phenomena one perceives. How many relative positions can we actually see in dating? If we go by the standard perception one usually begins with in modern day dating culture it is the perspective of emotions or wow, that guys hot! Or he's seems really nice. Or I like her. She's really cute. Ask the average dating person on perspective, you will find that their reason for even wanting to go out with that person is superficial at best. Every relationship, especially one that expects to endure the tests of time, deserves a little more than a superficial approach. Wouldn't you agree?
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This whole thing is just plain silly.
Hind-sight is 20/20 when you look at most divorces. Even most reasons for divorce, when we loom back, are just plain silly.
Jerry
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 11/3/2007 3:12:16 PM
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Fredriqua
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I've been following another discussion on another site (totally unrelated), and the people in that discussion have been exchanging thoughts on this very theme, of whether or not it's OK for Christians to discuss the ideas of a book without first privately contacting the book's author.
I believe that while it may be more Scriptural and desirable to involve a book's author in "criticism" of the book (and remember, "criticism" doesn't always have to be NEGATIVE..."literary criticism" is actually a term that means EVALUATING), sometimes that doesn't work out. Authors are often famous and busy. Sometimes, as Geo has pointed out, they don't respond to their email.
But also, the bottom line is, if you publish a book and put your thoughts out there, you then have made them available for PUBLIC discourse. It's not as though we are critiquing private conversations we've had with Josh Harris. Rather, we are discussing ideas that he PUBLISHED, that he sold and made money off of.
Those ideas have had consequences. Some of those consequences are great (like Dolli's marriage), but some of them are NOT so great. It's perfectly acceptable to discuss the consequences of a published idea. In fact, it's our duty as Christians to evaluate every teaching against the authority of the Word.
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 11/3/2007 3:34:44 PM
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Fredriqua
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Jerry, I would agree with you on many of your points regarding the history of courtship. But the bottom line is, we do not live in Bible times any more. When we take DESCRIPTIVE narratives of events from Bible times and attempt to turn them into PRESCRIPTIVE morality tales, I think we can run into issues...I mean, do you really think the way Ruth met Boaz is the way we ought to meet a spouse today? I don't think I'd advise a single gal to go sleep on some guy's threshing floor anytime soon...even if her ex-mother-in-law suggested it. 
I think you've misunderstood some of my posts, in that I'm not necessarily FOR "dating" as the world would define it. I've said several times that I agree with much of Josh Harris' teachings on purity. I also think that it's not necessarily a good idea to pursue romantic relationships when you have no possibility of getting married to the person at some point.
HOWEVER, isn't there room for chaste interaction between members of the opposite sex, where the potential for romantic interest could exist? Couldn't two 16-year-olds go out for ice cream after church by themselves and still honor Jesus?
With the courtship system as it plays out in my church, this sort of interaction is immediately suspect. People have the idea that the young man has sin in his heart toward the young lady, and if he still has the courage to pursue anything, he must run the gamut of trying to gain the father's approval. I am ALL FOR parental input and guidance when it comes to pursuing romance and marriage, but at some point, isn't such a heavy-handed approach taking it too far?
The result I've seen is that 25-year-old young women are still living at home with their parents, giggling with their friends on Sunday over a possible suitor. In a sad way, they are more boy crazy than young ladies from more middle-of-the-road churches who have been allowed to go out for ice cream.
As I told your wife, I think we are reacting to two very different outcomes to Harris' ideas. You came to the book with your previous dating experiences, got serious about how your love life honored God, and then pursued your now-wife. Other people have taken Harris' books as their manifesto for raising children who will never make romantic missteps. They've put in place a system that is NOT doing that good a good job of producing marriages. It doesn't even seem to produce young adults who can deal with the opposite sex in a mature way.
Could you agree that it's possible that these people's reaction to this book is a lot different than your own? And that possibly, people can take a "system" too far, to the point where it has unintended consequences, one of which is legalism?
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 11/3/2007 4:26:39 PM
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Geocacher301
Posts: 70
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fredriqua
Jerry, I would agree with you on many of your points regarding the history of courtship. But the bottom line is, we do not live in Bible times any more. When we take DESCRIPTIVE narratives of events from Bible times and attempt to turn them into PRESCRIPTIVE morality tales, I think we can run into issues...I mean, do you really think the way Ruth met Boaz is the way we ought to meet a spouse today? I don't think I'd advise a single gal to go sleep on some guy's threshing floor anytime soon...even if her ex-mother-in-law suggested it.
To further back up your comment Frederiqua I have seen others (and this is going back over 15 years ago) use the story of finding a wife for Isaac used as the supposed pattern for marriage. Those who used it were quick to point out that Isaac was meditating in a field when his wife came to him and that we were to follow this same pattern.
If you look back to one of my original posts on this thread I make more comments on this but what they were pushing is that you should be quite passive about finding a mate. This lead to many of the problems Freqriqua has mentione in the past about the men being quite so passive about trying to meet someone etc.
As I said in my longer post, the same story could be taught to show that you should be quite aggressive about finding your mate at the appropriate time.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Fredriqua
Could you agree that it's possible that these people's reaction to this book is a lot different than your own? And that possibly, people can take a "system" too far, to the point where it has unintended consequences, one of which is legalism?
I would hope he could. As I pointed out earlier, Joshua Harris himself has admitted this problem though denied an responsibility for it happening.
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 11/3/2007 5:41:01 PM
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JerrynDolli
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quote:
Are you saying that we shouldn't be posting here on this thread to discuss the book are are you more concerned with my pointing out how little if any responsibility he accepted for misapplications of his book?
Hi Geo,
No I wasn't... I do believe in talking things out. I just prefer to speak with the source behind it, to understand where they are coming from.
So I'll read the book.
I told my husband about the thread he answered some of my questions and he spoke volumes to my heart. So I asked him to read Fredriqua's comments because she seemed quite disappointed in the process presented in the Book. After reading it he decided to address some of her statements. I'll read them later.
But the main point is... we all may see differently. But, as the body of Christ Jesus, let nothing divide us. People always do what is right in their own eyes. However, make sure whatever we do... let it be done by the leading of the Holy Spirit... therefore doing that which right in God's eyes.
If the Lord tells you and family not to participate in this teaching... okay.
But, just know Joshua Harris is a man of God. He is not perfect... but,
Christ Jesus is perfect in Him. The best thing we can do for everyone involved is to pray one for another. Just like I tell my friends who may go from Church to Church... in search the perfect one for their ideologies or theologies. There is no perfect Church... we all see dimly until Jesus Comes Again, there is only a Perfect Savior(Jesus). So don't expect any Church you go to be perfect... in fact, the moment we arrive and sit on the pew... well, it becomes even more imperfect. Thank Christ for His Perfection. Look I don't anything... except Christ and Him Crucified. I'm still growing and how much more to learn.
Love you all,
In Christ Jesus
~Dolli
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 11/4/2007 7:53:56 AM
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Geocacher301
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Dolli
I would tend to agree with you on your last post. I am glad you don't want or think discussion should be stifled.
People should make their own decision on whether and what part of what Joshua Harris says in his book should be applied in their lives. I would also say that without balanced knowledge (knowing the pros and cons of his system) one might make the wrong decision. Again unfortunately he didn't share about any of the potential problems with his approach.
Also realize that as Fredriqua has pointed out that is a church has decided to fully embrace Harris's group concept/courting, it can be hard for an individual to not do the same. To date someone it takes finding someone.
It is true as you said the Joshua Harris is fallable. He was 21 when he wrote the book and for whatever reason didn't seem to research any history of this though it was available in the church he was a part of.
I don't think people should get too excited about his book. Its popularity for the most part has come and gone. I don't get the idea that his group/courting approach has gained that widespread acceptance. It has gotten people to challenge what they are doing and seek purity.
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 11/4/2007 8:31:32 AM
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JerrynDolli
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Amen... Oh and Good Morning,
Jerry and I are getting ready to go to church right now. He hasn't read your posts Fredriqua and Geo, we went to fellow sister's in Christ Birthday Party. So he'll more than likely read your post lead later.
Anway, Josh Harris did a sermon on Purity... His Church is on the website.
www.covlife.org.
Apparently he is no longer 21, but a father and an adult, Pastor a Church.
(REVISED)
Look what I believed in my twenties as a babe in Christ, is in many ways different than who and what I believe now. I was very legalistic. Grace and Mercy??? Though God granted it to me... I did not displayed it towards others. I was quick to received God's forgiveness and learning curb He seemed to allowed in some areas of my life as learned truth about His ways. Yes, because I was on the path of maturity. Yep, I discovered much of my failures were because of not believing what God said in His Word... Only to suffer and realize...Hey God knows what He's talking about. Then I understood I would have success when I believe God at His Word and applying it and having great success. Therefore, as we mature and understand God's Grace and the truth about what is in our deceitful hearts... we become humble... more merciful and prayerful for others' weakness. Many times rules and restraint we expect of one anothers we do not ourselves. Which why is very important to allow God to lead us through His written Word and not our own ideas and methods.
We all have come up with great plans and they just haven't worked. In fact, I have supervisors creating serving procedures for us to do on the aircraft... yet, never set foot on the plane to see if it is feasible. It look good in theory... put not practical. However, as we gave them our input. After enough complaints and suggestions they came out to see for themselves and agreed it isn't as easy as we thought. Then they revised it.
I'm was guilty of doing the same thing. I remember as a babe in Christ I decided to witness and worked on my days off volunteering in a Unwed Home for Crack Users. I didn't understand people destroying their lives by using drugs. I had great ideals for them to stop, but would they follow them... would they listen? No they didn't. I never tried using the advice myself... the ideas came from my intellect. Look I didn't do drugs... never have. If anyone would have passed an assortment of drugs on a tray, I wouldn't be tempted to take any. So it was easy for me to criticize and tell others who may have a bent to drugs to stop and be holy .... look I don't do drugs why can't you be drugless like me. Well, that is not my bent... and even that is because of the Grace of God. So I had to allow the Lord help me revise my teachings. Though in a secular program I used on them what I used on me in my shopping addiction (past shopping addiction ) Yep,give me a tray of credit cards in those days and release me in a mall  , WOW... the lust the eyes... materialism... , which is just as sinful. That it takes the Grace of God operating in and through me to practice self control, content with what have and obedience. I begin to pray and that It be Gods plans and ways not mine. As I matured I learned was not easy to follow Gods precepts... it was even harder following rules I made up for myself and others.
So we all are growing and Brother Harris is still growing as you, me, we... all, from faith to faith to glory to glory.
Hey, because I never read the book. And because I ended up marrying my husband in such a short time. I never thought reading it until now.
But, my message has always been Purity. That is my message when I do talk about dating to the singles. I never used the word courtship, because I was not familiar with it, and was communicating in their language. In fact, I use to date myself, meaning taking myself out dates. In fact, this is what I posted in another forum for women in their forties to give them insight and a ray of hope. Stella informed me of all many single females in their 30's,40's,50's,etc... who are still waiting for Mr. Right. You know this going to sound out there... but, I held on to Isiah 54 where God informed Israel He was their husband. I literally may the my pack with God during my single season. I said God... you are my husband and I'll will be faithful and honor you. You are my main guy and you're my date. I've always acted as if He was with me as a date. In fact, sometimes I ask Him to wait outside the Mall so I have could have  free guiltless shopping...  , I'll be right back Holy Spirit no need to follow me... I'll be a good girl... with all these things calling me to buy me.. buy me.. JUST KIDDING... I do take Him Shopping Now... His my accountablity partner.
Anyway, I'm more concern about purity above us when people are in the present of the opposite sexes... and it is very wise not to be let alone in places where no one could encourage good behavior. Places where there is darkness... as in a theater. So group dating makes a lot of sense. In Song of Solomon it takes about not awakening love before it's times. I don't believe in people kissing until the appointed time of .... we let's just say... it can be a prelude to fornication.
Anyway this is the advice I shared with the singles... about dating... and how God is able in many methods enable us to come upon the path of future spouses... just being about the Fathers Business... living life.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: gaylel1
wonder should we doing something in desparation, like going into other avenues like every dating service, lol and advertising that we are available and especially with the ladies, go get any man?--or should be wating and not let the world dictate what we should do?
Hi Gayle,
Might I suggest for everyone if they are desperate... to ask the Lord to remove that from their soul. Desperation is like a unpleasant scent... that drives others away. Others may perceive it as lack of confidence and a turn off. So please just relax and rest in the Lord. Resting in the Lord projects a confidence to others. They may precieve you as being assertive, peaceful, friendly, open... these attributes are very attractive. So when we trust in the Lord to work behind the scene... we do have an unspeakable assurance that everything is going to be alright. In fact, you no longer feel unworthy, unattractive, or unhappy about being you. You begin not to care what others think and begin to enjoy life. Again, confidence... as in your confidence in knowing that the Lord is enabling you to become a wonderful contribution to whose ever life you're involved in... is just very attractive. Even attractive to yourself. In fact, you will date yourself, until Mr. Right (if you're a female) or Miss right (if you're a man) crosses your path.
Yes, you'll begin to do things whether or not you have a date. Look. I'm no longer single, in fact, I've been married seven years next week. When my husband met me, I was so happy loving life and doing things with and by myself... I didn't think I wanted to get married. I had not dated for three years. I was going through a divorce and as long as I was legally married and may my husband would reconcile with me... well I refused to even have a cup of coffee with anyone. Those were some of the best seasons of my life. I refused to go out on dates, though my ex was seeing his girlfriend. Constantly individuals feeling sorry for me would asked If I got lonely. I would reply no... because I date myself. And I'm learning to love myself as the Lord tells me who I am and my purposed. I began to invest in others. In doing so I discover there other many single people(men) who shared my same interest. They sense my contentment and zeal for enjoying life and people. Though I could not date. I took note that my contentment and me loving myself and celebrating others was contagious. I realized they thought this to mean confidence. My passion for life and helping people overshadowed the fact I was shy on a one to basis with the opposite sex. Nevertheless, I also realized people enjoy and want to be around people who are happy with themselves. They want to be part of your life. So I shared this discovery with some of my single friends. I told them stop looking for men to marry them. Just learn to date yourself, love yourself expecting God to do something wonderful. Refuse to be bitter and angry about your past relationships (the attitude will drive any wise man away... and if a man ... a prudent woman). Remember, Proverb advises don't associate with an angry person.
Now when you date yourself... go to places you would like to go if you had a partner. Over the Holidays why not work in Organizations providing meals for the disadvantage or visit hospitals to assist the staff in making patients holiday joyful. Organizations that build homes for the disadvantage. You will meet individuals who are givers.Join various clubs... theater, art, writers workshops, poetry corner (Some Borders Books as places to showcase writers works), Cooking School, Sking classes, tennis clubs, walking clubs, painting...bowling leagues. The point is don't hide in the house. You can not be found in your house. Circulate. And beautify yourself... and I don't mean outward... but don't look a mess either. I mean allow your beauty come from the inside out. A beautiful joyful spirit, a beautiful smile... with laughter in the eyes. Kindness being displayed from the inside out... be real. Loving God means loving yourself, loving yourself and loving others. Such beauty is intoxicating.
Going to dating services. Well, I didn't. But God does work through many avenues. However, remember you want individuals of like faith and values. Being equally yoke is important. I know this from experience. I think it might be a good thing to go to e harmony just to do the assessment test to discover your likes and dislike... even bringing up some points you never thought of.
And remember don't expect others to be what you're not willing to be or provide.
In Christ Jesus,
~Dolli
< Message edited by JerrynDolli -- 11/4/2007 4:03:42 PM >
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 11/4/2007 8:57:55 PM
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Geocacher301
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quote:
i Geo and Fredriqua,
I went to the site again and here are His messages:
Dolli
Why did you post this? Are you saying these messages give an update on his KDG philosophy?
I don't think either of us are questioning the need for purity. I think both myself and Fredriqua are questioning Harris's approach especially when the approach is pushed to extremes and gets legalistic.
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 11/7/2007 6:15:16 PM
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JerrynDolli
Posts: 86
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quote:
Dolli
Why did you post this? Are you saying these messages give an update on his KDG philosophy?
I don't think either of us are questioning the need for purity. I think both myself and Fredriqua are questioning Harris's approach especially when the approach is pushed to extremes and gets legalistic.
Hi Geo,
I posted it because the messages are sound and since both of you are convinced courtship
ideology is not to your liking... since, some are of the mine that dating is presently of this era... well, I just thought the points he made about relationship between men and women were great guidelines.
But now, I decided maybe you cannot receive this teaching from Brother Harris. And that is okay. May you find someone's teaching on this courtship and dating dilema you can receive. I just think maybe everyone spend too much time on debating or critiquing this book. Now, that I know it was written many years ago. Apparently, he has written other books 'Boy Meets Girl' and 'Not Even A Hint'. I'm just sadden everyone is so disturbed about this book. If it doesn't fit in those who are complaining lives, and God is telling them not to follow the suggestions than don't. The mean point is to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit. God is able to navigate us through life and the process of becoming equally yoke... with the mate he has chosen. What God has for us, God has for us... and no one... but ourselves can hinder the vision he put on our hearts to get married from coming to past. May everyone who thinks they are not marrying because of the principles of I Kissed Dating Goodbye cease thinking so. If they say this book is hindering them than stop following the book and just follow the leading of the Holy Spirit and the principles of the Word of God. God is faithful and if people pursue dating... then may they use wisdom and purpose to pursue purity.
Well, But thank you anyway for sharing your viewpoints of the book. It has been very interesting. I pray that everyones God given desires as far as mates and helpmates goes, come to pass.
Agape,
In Christ Jesus,
~Dolli  
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 11/7/2007 9:30:02 PM
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Geocacher301
Posts: 70
Joined: 4/27/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JerrynDolli
Hi Geo,
I posted it because the messages are sound and since both of you are convinced courtship
ideology is not to your liking... since, some are of the mine that dating is presently of this era... well, I just thought the points he made about relationship between men and women were great guidelines.
But now, I decided maybe you cannot receive this teaching from Brother Harris. And that is okay. May you find someone's teaching on this courtship and dating dilema you can receive. I just think maybe everyone spend too much time on debating or critiquing this book.
Dolli
Thanks for responding back.
What I would say here is I agree with you that each person needs to decide whether the courtship/group approach is something that they want to adopt or decide which parts they want to adopt. Realize that since dating or courting require two people it might be hard to be in a church that has different beliefs on this than you do. Thus it may require moving to another church if the church you attend promotes a system you don't agree with. Another option if you are in this dilemma is to still attend the same church and find someone outside your church that agrees more with your philosophy on dating/courship.
In order for someone to decide if they want to use the courtship/group model they need to understand what it is about and understand the pros and cons. IMO, Harris presented a biased viewpoint on the system he promotes. He talked about all the cons of dating but failed to acknowledge the problems that can and have occurred with his system. Thus singles who are deciding what approach they want to take need to hear the whole story on his approach. Hearing the problems that can occur with the system they would have a better chance of avoiding the problems if they know what they are.
The book is also more of a testimonial on how it worked for him vs. a guide on his group approach.
Yes his book is old. but it was revised one time. Harris could have addressed more of the issues with his book when he did the revision.
It is frustrating when you send emails to the author of the book and it appears they aren't getting to him. As I have said before, I would guess that he has become numb to constructive criticism of his book since it has been attacked by a number of people. I am also sure it is hard to believe there is a problem with it when it sold so many books.
I hope this helps.
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 11/8/2007 4:04:24 PM
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10SNE1?
Posts: 198
Joined: 4/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fredriqua
But the reality is, since courtship, by its very definition, is so laden with expectations, these girls probably come off as over-eager, which I think is an instant turn-off to normal guys. Especially at the church we attended, many of the families also held to the notion that since women are told to be "keepers at home," pursuing a college education or a career outside the home was not Biblical. So a lot of these gals just stayed home (after completing their homeschool education). They were focused on learning the "home arts" and preparing themselves for their future spouses.
And if you questioned anything, they'd start quoting Josh Harris.
Hey Fredriqua,
I haven't been keeping up with this thread but this caught my attention. I seem to remember from your first few posts that you are concerned about raising your children in this type of environment. Honestly, we have three daughters and a son..the youngest is 16 and the others young adults, given what you posted above I'd say take your kids and find a different church.
Unless you truly believe that your daughters shouldn't attend college or have a career and plan to raise them accordingly, there is just no way that this is going to be a spiritually healthy place for them. They are going to grow up hearing one thing at home and the opposite at church. In fact, many people at church are going to tell them that the plan mom and dad are encouraging ( higher education) is in fact a "sin" for a woman.
This is just a recipe for disaster. They will either reject you or they will reject the church. And if they reject the church, they might reject more than just this local body.
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 11/8/2007 5:31:40 PM
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Fredriqua
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Joined: 9/12/2007
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10SNE1...
I'm afraid you're right in your assessment. My husband and I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that we need to find a different congregation where more people share our same outlook. It makes us really sad, because it's a very sweet church. If it were just us--if we didn't have kids--all those secondary things like courtship wouldn't bother us. Yet in some respects, we're beginning to realize that, sweetness aside, the secondary things actually symbolize other issues, like the love of control and submission.
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 11/8/2007 7:49:39 PM
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mellysue
Posts: 61
Joined: 5/25/2005
From: Memphis, TN
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It's been about 7 years since I read KDG. I should probably pick it up and re-read. I do remember being utterly disgusted by it. Well, maybe not so much by the book itself, but the way it was being applied all around me.
As I have mentioned before I was 19 when this book became 'hot'. I was a freshman in college, away from home and my boyfriend of 2 years. We had agreed to try the long distance thing out. We weren't really sure if it would work. Originally we had agreed to break up before college and not put ourselves through that but as college got closer we found ourselves unable to imagine not being with each other romantically.
It's not like we had an escape clause in our relationship if either got cold feet, but we didn't have expectations of marrying at the end of college. I hoped we would, and I'm sure he did as well, but we didn't officially commit ourselves to each other in that fashion. We were just taking this day by day.
Well, KDG comes out and courtship is all the rage and all the girls in my church group are into courting. Very easy for them, none of them were in a relationship at the time. It's real easy for a single girl who's not actively dating to say that she's going to stop dating. I was under an enormous amount of pressure to 'define' my relationship. "Are you guys engaged?" "Do you plan on getting married?" "Why would you date for so long if you don't know for sure that you are getting married?" etc..
There's no way I was going to tell my bf (who hadn't read the book btw) that he needed to propose or get out. He was still in high school!
What also goes along with this courtship model is that the guy must be able to provide for the girl before they court or marry or whatever. My husband and I (I married that guy BTW) have been married 4 years and I've been the provider for most of them while he finishes school. If I waited for him to be able to provide for me, I would still be single. Why should I have to wait for him to make the money when I'm doing it on my own!?
Anyway.. also, his mother hated me. Now, granted she wasn't a christian, but she hated me for 7 years. Tried her darnest to break us up. Eventually my hubby stood up to her and told her to buzz off or she risked losing her son. She calmed down a bit after that. Now we are actually close.
But had we followed the model of getting both parent's approval beforehand, we would have never ended up together.
I'm all for dating someone long enough to get to know them well. I wouldn't recommend the 7 year approach that we took :) but all the same, I knew my husband very well by the time we married and very few things about his personality took me by surprise when we married.
Oh.. and we we virgins on our wedding day... so purity in dating is quite possible.
I can't stand reactionary stances. I think courtship is a reaction to promiscuity in the church. The reaction to promiscuity shouldn't be no touching allowed, it should be education and enabling our teens/young adults to make wise and godly decisions on their own and not hold their hands until they are 25 years old.
I can't imagine my mother being actively involved in my love life at 25! I was out of the house at 18. Even if I hadn't been dating the same guy for 7 years and was seeing different guys, I still can't imagine my mom having a say so when I didn't live in her house. Advice is one thing - decision making is another. Of course any man I would get involved with would have to someday meet and greet my parents. And yes, I would hold their advice in very high esteem and if they had any hesitation in my decision I would see if it was built on something substantial or just "We don't like that guy"
My family actually never understood what I saw in my husband until after we were married. Even though he was around them for years they just never 'got it'. But they knew I loved him and he loved me and we both loved God and that was all that mattered.
After we were married my mom understood how we complimented each other. But only after seeing us living together did she fully get that.
She always wanted me to marry a missionary. But I'm quite the indoor girl type and can't see myself living in a tent in Africa and liking it a whole lot. :)
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 11/9/2007 7:53:53 PM
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Geocacher301
Posts: 70
Joined: 4/27/2007
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quote:
But the reality is, since courtship, by its very definition, is so laden with expectations, these girls probably come off as over-eager, which I think is an instant turn-off to normal guys. Especially at the church we attended, many of the families also held to the notion that since women are told to be "keepers at home," pursuing a college education or a career outside the home was not Biblical. So a lot of these gals just stayed home (after completing their homeschool education). They were focused on learning the "home arts" and preparing themselves for their future spouses.
And if you questioned anything, they'd start quoting Josh Harris.
Fredriqua
I am also baffled by this.
I am surprised that they don't want women in your church to not attend college. Even if the women does end up getting married and having kids and is hopefully able to stay home and raise the kids, wouldn't you want the person (the wife) who will spend the most time with them to have a good education? The additional learning in college would be a big benefit in many ways and especially if they are home schooling their kids.
Also, from what I have seen, these type of churches seem to attract more single women than single men so the odds are that at least some of the women will be working their whole life. A college education might be well worth it in that case.
Just another thought on this.
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 11/11/2007 11:07:52 AM
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Fredriqua
Posts: 20
Joined: 9/12/2007
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Geo,
To be fair, the "no college for girls" segment of my church is just a medium-sized portion of the folks who go there. And it's not taught directly from the pulpit. But there's definitely the underlying assumption among just about everybody that a woman's true calling is to be a "keeper of the home," and therefore, she should not be too career-focused.
I personally never had a problem with THAT aspect of the church, but I do think that when you combine the "no college, no career" attitude with the principles of courtship, it makes for a self-defeating mix.
First of all, if the girls are all so marriage-minded, with no real career aspirations, and just "killing time" before Mr. Right approaches Daddy to "court" them, they will be VERY eager for courtship, even if they've theoretically "kissed dating goodbye." And it's been my personal observation that normal, decent guys do NOT like over-eager girls. This is just my observation, of course, but I really don't think anyone will argue with me on that. Unless the "over-eager" gal is tremendously attractive, your average guy is turned off by that vibe.
Then, the "courtship" crowd has made interaction between the sexes into a big huge serious deal. By its very definition, "courtship" at the least is "dating with the purpose of marriage." The guy has to first "court" the girl's father, interacting with him for various lengths of time (depending on how deep into this the dad is) in order to prove his seriousness and Godly intentions.
As I've said before, it's been my observation that most of the guys who COULD get dates in the regular way defect from this system, going outside the circle of available IKDG gals and approaching gals who are more interesting and less "heavy" about the whole thing. They may still "do courtship," but it's not in the same heavy-handed, parentally controlled way.
So that leaves a bunch of gals (especially the more "average" ones) hanging around, waiting for Mr. Right. There are a lot fewer guys to choose from than gals. Geo is correct in his observation about the guy/gal ratio in most church singles groups.
That's the irony of IKDG and "courtship." If you combine a serious, heavy-handed approach to romance with teaching the girls that a woman's only REAL purpose in life is to be a wife and mother, you're going to end up with a bunch of spinsters.
That's why I think something is seriously amiss in the "courtship" system. Otherwise, it would produce more marriages.
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 11/11/2007 3:12:27 PM
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JerrynDolli
Posts: 86
Joined: 9/13/2007
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quote:
Geo,
To be fair, the "no college for girls" segment of my church is just a medium-sized portion of the folks who go there. And it's not taught directly from the pulpit. But there's definitely the underlying assumption among just about everybody that a woman's true calling is to be a "keeper of the home," and therefore, she should not be too career-focused.
Hi Fredriqua,
I'm glad to hear you state that fact. And that it is just a segment of your church that believes that. Does your Pastor promote this?
I happen know women who attend Covenant Life Church and their daughters goes to college. In fact, a co-worker (see she flies... she is a career woman) invited me to attend Covenant Life (the church where Joshua Harris is the Senior Pastor). She knew about the book and she and her husband practiced whatever the principles are in that book (I still haven't read it yet ). Her step daughter is very much involved in the singles group at her church and most of the girls are going to college. So I don't know where that doctrine about girls not going to college came from. There are many women who homeschool and are very connected to the Covenant Life Christian School. The school has sports teams (basketball, golf,etc...) in which they compete with other schools in their county. A lot of professional women (married and single goes to church there). In fact, there is a husband and wife who are scientists. She is very happy attending the church Josh Harris is pastoring. She is the one who told me about the other books he's written. By the way, there have been numerous weddings taking place at Covenant Life and the Church is continously growing in numbers because of their Family Values. In fact, Brother Harris might have not written you because the Church is very large and he is very busy. And continuously addressing a book that was written when he was in his twenties and apparently he has stated his knew found wisdom about the matter in previous areanas. Well, all I'm saying being a Pastor over a large congregation is time consuming and being a father over I think three little ones... well, forgive him. Please forgive this man if he hadn't time to address you. Allow God to help answers the question you may have and maybe God want people to come to Him to seek wisdom on how to walk out their faith in that area. Anyway, I thank God I did not write a book yet, because I know I am going to have many critics. We are not able to please everyone and have everyone agree with our views.
That is why we are instructed to measure everything by the Word... His Spirit.
I believe it is the parents responsibilities to teach the children in the way the are to go. And that is always in the way of the Lord. If these girls you are speaking of are not preparing themselves for life beyond being courted. I place the blame on their upbringing not the book IKDG or the church. Yes, it is good to hope to get married. But equip yourself beyond keeping a house. If they are going to be homeschoolers or teachers of their future children, then seeking an education until that time comes is very profitable for the children. Again, that is if they decide to stay home. Which is not a bad desire. I did not grow up in the faith. But, my mother was a stay at home mother. Because she did stay home she was able to make sure we were not getting into things most kids in their teens got into. She taught us manners, etiquette and morals (not kissing, drinking, smoking etc...), which is why most people thought I was a christian. She encouraged us to get an education and marry someone who was financially able to care for us. Though she didn't included knowing Jesus, she did the best she could in investing values in us. So women who desire to be home with their children and raise them is a good thing in any culture, it brings stability in a childs life.
Again, the bottom line is allow the Holy Bible and the Spirit of the Living God direct the course for your family. If God tells you to do something, then do not think about the opinion of others. If God tells them to do something for their families and it doesn't go against the Word of Truth, then don't upset about it... nor judge it before its time.
All of this energy can be a hinderance to you walking in the peace of God and fulfilling His purpose for your lives. Remember, what appears foolish in others eyes is wise to God. So you may not understand what those individuals are doing for their lives... what has that to do with you or any of us if God told them to do it. Just do what the Lord tells you to do, what has it to do with me. Let me make sure I'm walking the path the Lord told me to walk.
Be at peace and know God's Mercy and Grace is able to correct any plan of man. God's ways are perfect and when we love God everything works together for our good through Christ Jesus. Continue to pray for the young people and their parents, as well as yourselves. God will not fail, He is able to bring the vision He has placed in all of their... our hearts to pass.
Rest my friends.
Agape,
In Christ Jesus
~Dolli
< Message edited by JerrynDolli -- 11/11/2007 3:51:30 PM >
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