RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostalism.
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 12/23/2006 1:56:41 AM
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zaphnathpaaneah
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Oh it's simple, she's taken a relativistic approach. Anyone is potentially saved, doctrinal differences are not relevant from her responses. I am not going to address her becuase she is not really discussing Oneness doctrine. She is taking a hands off approach and her position is "why call me a heretic when you yourself are guilty of judging others". Ok fine. Either go to hell for pointing out error or go to hell for living in error. Or neither. Who knows.
Anyway, Onneness doctirne is the topic here, I won't discuss relativism in this thread.
quote:
ORIGINAL: figmentPez
quote:
ORIGINAL: Superduck77
I ask you zaphnathpaaneah, come into the chat crossdaily where I chat with, many trinity people, and do call them Brothers, and Sisters. I invite you to see, that I am real, a upc, that does NOT condem any one.
Are you seriously not connecting the dots here? If what the UPC teaches is true, then zaphnathpaaneah and I, indeed anyone who believes in the trinity, are NOT your brothers in Christ. If the UPC is correct, that only those who believe in "oneness", were baptized "in jesus name" and spoke in tongues are members of the family of God. More than that, it claims that those who hold to trinitarian doctrine worship a false God and are anti-Christ. To claim that you call trinitarian believers "Brothers, and Sisters" is contradictory to the teachings of the UPC.
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 12/23/2006 2:01:45 AM
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zaphnathpaaneah
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Superduck77
I would that all would sit down in glory , the pagans, the babtist, the catholics, the mormons, ALL people zaphnathpaaneah jews and greeks alike, it is my heart that all enter the city.
I would even save you a seat beside me, at the marriage supper of the lamb, I am serious zaphnathpaaneah.
You would, but you don't. This is another thing that is characteristic of Oneness Pentecostalism. When they have to discuss the issues, they will try to steer the conversation towards a seemingly co-existent live-and-let-live resolution. But they don't really mean it. Notice she said "I would", in effect she is saying, she still thinks I am damned, but she HOPES I would change my beliefs "I would save you a seat"... I know enough about Onenss Pentecostalism, that's saying "I would like to talk you into the Onenss Doctrine to save your soul."
"I would that, I would even, it is my heart that all enter..."
this is all conditional acceptance, another Oneness tactic of letting the other person's guard down, showing some "christan" sign of human acceptance, then later "convincing" me through the guilt trip that Oneness is truth. But its letting me know something else. it's letting me know that she really doesn't have any real biblical foundation to her beliefs. I have been through this tactic with Mormons. When the discussion has ended on their side, they either "have to go" or ignore the truth and just wish themselves through the conversation. Reconvincing themselves they are true and wishing I would just trust them.
Come on guys.
What is God's name? God said it's Yahweh. Did the Father die on the Cross? NO! Do I need to talk in tongues to be saved? NO! Will talking in tongues be the only way I receive the fullness of the Holy Spirit? NO! Is the Son eternally interacting with the Father? YES! Does the Father send another who will work with us? YES.
I like my coffee with lots of cream, very little sugar. If I were you, I'd start listening more Superduck and be ok with dropping the Oneness doctrine. When i did, nothing bad happened. I didn't go through some period of hopelessness or despair. You see my posts in the Pentecostalsim thread. You yourself are living testimony as to why Pentecostalism itself is bordering on heresy. I ask you as I asked them, how can the two groups both be justified in the use of tongues as spiritual guidance when the two of you come to conflicting interpretations of the Bible? You use the same methods about tongues. Obviously you cancel each other out.
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 12/24/2006 7:54:02 PM
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The-Us-God
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Superduck77
would seem that the site posted in BASHING oneness hm......... when one kicks against the ****s would seem they are fearing the subject....... hm makes one or the oneness people wonder dont it lol .......... hmmmmm........ lets us not forget that even Jesus said He and His father are ONE ........hm...... and for me that nuff said on the subject.
Did you visit the site I gave to start this post?
If not then please visit here...
http://trisagionseraph.tripod.com/opf.html
This site goes into GREAT detail on the teaching of Oneness and your comments are welcome AFTER you view it...
Thanks
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 12/25/2006 12:24:50 AM
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Diolectic
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I will reword the scripturse to represent the oneness doctrine.
Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, (something in aramaic) that is to say, my self, my self, why hast i forsaken me?
Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, me: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mark 6:46 And when he had sent them away, he departed into a mountain to talk to Himself.
John 10:30 I and my self are one.
John 14:8-9 And Philip said to Him, Lord, show us yourself, and it is enough for us.
:9 Jesus said to him, Am I so long a time with you, and you have not known Me, Philip? The one seeing Me has seen Me! And how do you say, Show us You?
_____________________________
We are created to be slaves with bonds of freedom. As a astronaut is free un-tethered to his life supporting space shuttle, so would we be free from God.
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 12/25/2006 3:26:54 AM
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zaphnathpaaneah
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Diolectic - Beautiful. I like your style. Oh let me add three more if I may:
Jhn 14:16 And I will pray that myself, and I shall give you me again in my other mode, that I may abide with you for ever;
Jhn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, I will not come back unto you in my other office; but if I depart, I will send myself unto you in that mode.
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for me, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for me, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 12/1/2007 8:08:39 AM
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cajunhillbilly
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That is just about how the Oneness people really believe too. I know a pastor who is solidly Trinitarian who at one time was UPC. He said that my asking him simple questions about Bible passages that show Trinitarianism finally led him to reject Oneness for a more Biblical view. That and seeing so many Christians at Intervarsity while in college that so obiously had the fruit of the Spirit yet never spoke in tongues.
_____________________________
"A Stargate. You know, kind of a ring thing. Comes with a dialer. You hit some symbols. The lights come on. It spins around. And then it flushes sideways" Jack O'Neill on Stargate SG1
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 12/1/2007 8:39:59 PM
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walterquez
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Pentecostalism is a form of the old Montanism from the 2nd century, and Oneness Pentecostal is the old ancient heresy from around the same time of the Sabellians who believed in Modalism.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 12/1/2007 8:51:38 PM
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walterquez
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I think it is curious how the Sabellians spoke primarily of the Father, and the Oneness of today speak of the Son primarily, and recently there has been a lot of mention of the Holy Spirit among the Charismatics. I will be not surprised if a new form of Oneness will emerge focusing primarily on the Holy Spirit.
I think it is ironic that Modalism thru the ages starts with the Father, then the Son and probably very soon, unless it is here now, the Holy Spirit.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 12/3/2007 12:25:33 AM
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Aphobos
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
I think it is curious how the Sabellians spoke primarily of the Father, and the Oneness of today speak of the Son primarily, and recently there has been a lot of mention of the Holy Spirit among the Charismatics. I will be not surprised if a new form of Oneness will emerge focusing primarily on the Holy Spirit.
I think it is ironic that Modalism thru the ages starts with the Father, then the Son and probably very soon, unless it is here now, the Holy Spirit.
Rarely do I defend the charismatic church. It's gross excesses and misplaced focus leave it with few redeeming qualities. In the interest of fairness, however, I must speak.
While the charismatic movement may be accused of many things, modalism isn't one of them. I'm sure there are some exceptions, but charismatic Christianity is for the most part Trinitarian. Yes, they overemphasize the Third Person, but that is not tantamount to modalism. They would have to deny the coeternality of both Father and Son, and this they generally do not do.
On a side note, the role of the Holy Spirit in the church is to draw our attention to Christ. He is the spotlight; Jesus is center-stage. For a church to be fixated on the Holy Spirit is itself evidence that the Spirit is not at work there.
Modalism is a serious charge. It is a rejection of the biblical Trinity, in which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are coequal AND coeternal. Emphasizing one Person in the Godhead over another, however, is not modalism. Let's be a little more careful with our labels.
In Him,
~Aphobos
< Message edited by Aphobos -- 12/3/2007 1:07:15 AM >
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 12/4/2007 1:20:18 AM
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walterquez
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I don't think it is unfair to mention the Charismatics. That the Charismatics in general are Trinitarian it is true. But we can't deny that it is easy to adopt Modalism within their circles. After all, that is where the Oneness Pentecostal came from.
quote:
For a church to be fixated on the Holy Spirit is itself evidence that the Spirit is not at work there. And unfortunately, this is what is happening today.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 12/5/2007 5:13:58 PM
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figmentPez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
I think it is curious how the Sabellians spoke primarily of the Father, and the Oneness of today speak of the Son primarily, and recently there has been a lot of mention of the Holy Spirit among the Charismatics. I will be not surprised if a new form of Oneness will emerge focusing primarily on the Holy Spirit.
I think it is ironic that Modalism thru the ages starts with the Father, then the Son and probably very soon, unless it is here now, the Holy Spirit.
While I suppose it's possible that some sort of "holy spirit modalism" will arise, it would end up being fairly different than the "jesus-only modalism", and probably different than the "father-only modalism". See, my understanding of "oneness" is that the heart of the lie is the same that Satan tried to tempt man with originally "you will be like God". See, when we deny the person of the Holy Spirit, it becomes much easier to view the Spirit as a mere power given to humans, rather than God Himself. See, "oneness" says that the Son of God was just the flesh body that was God because of the spirit of the Father (whose name is Jesus) within it. One Satan can get people to believe this lie, that the man Jesus Christ was only God because of the spirit inside Him, then Satan can feed us humans the lie that we can become gods because of the spirit within us, gods in the same way that the Son of God was God. However, if we believe that the Holy Spirit is God Himself, and not just a power that God gave to humanity (see, when "oneness" comes across a verse that talks about the Holy Spirit as being other than the Father, they claim that it's because it's talking about the power of the Holy Spirit and not the person of the Holy Spirit), then it becomes that much harder for Satan to convince us that we can become god in the same way that Jesus Christ is God.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 12/14/2007 9:13:01 PM
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A_crucified_man
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
Pentecostalism is a form of the old Montanism from the 2nd century, and Oneness Pentecostal is the old ancient heresy from around the same time of the Sabellians who believed in Modalism.
I disagree with your general definition of "Pentecostalism" - not all of them believe in Modalism like the UPC.
The majority of us believe in the Trinity as is clearly shown in Scripture.
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 12/14/2007 10:35:23 PM
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walterquez
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Sorry for the misunderstanding. I didn't say Pentecostals in general believe in Modalism, only the Oneness Pentecostal do.
What I said about Pentecostals in general is that they are similar to the old Montanists, not that they believe in Modalism. I know the Pentecostals in general believe in the Trinity.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 12/21/2007 4:03:33 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
Hine ma tov u mah na-im shevet achim gam yachad. ya just can't read this without singing it
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
Shema Yisrael: Adonai Elohenu, Adonai echad. nor this without praying it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Superduck
United pentecostal people are sweet kind and lovig just as you are but then again............ you dont seem to nice really........ :( I haven't had this experience with UPC people, except with one friend in high school who was UPC. There are forums that might show another side of UPC that could ... well ... make you uncomfortable.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bethany
I am a Pentecost. And I was rised in this. And my church does belielve in speaking with other tongues. And we don't put down other people religion. This, also, was not my experience with UPC. When I would visit my friend, some of the people just loved to make jabs at me as a trinitarian. Her father kept me up until around 3 or 4 a.m. harrassing me, making fun of my beliefs, trying to convince me.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bethany
All us ladies wears dresses and skirts and shirts that is decent and all the men wear pants and decent shirts. Are dresses and skirts mentioned in the Bible? I know that UPC used to teach that pants were immodest for women, but if pants are immodest, why do the men wear them?
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 12/21/2007 9:32:30 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: A_crucified_man
I disagree with your general definition of "Pentecostalism" - not all of them believe in Modalism like the UPC.
The majority of us believe in the Trinity as is clearly shown in Scripture. Seriously? I was under the impression that most charismatics believed were trinitarian and most pentecostals were oneness. I had no idea, man.
I think that Assemblies of G-d, all branches. are charismatic. is that correct? I know that there are many other pentecostals who are trinitarian, but I had been under the impression that UPCI was larger than A-G. Wrong? I know that UPCs are not the only oneness people but that there are many, many more who are oneness. Is UPC the main oneness group, with no oneness rivals? Do you know where there are statitics on this?
Thank you!
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 12/21/2007 9:45:29 PM
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walterquez
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I think the Assemblies of God are by far the largest (50 million plus), and they are Trinitarian. According to wikipedia, the UPC has about 4 million worldwide. But I do know some, not many, within the main Pentecostal line do believe in some form of Modalism. Many mainline Pentecostals believe God has manisfested Himself differently at different times, but never denying the Trinity. But I think this is walking on thin ice.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 12/21/2007 9:51:52 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Thank you! I had no clue! I cannot tell you how relieved that makes me feel.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 3/24/2008 3:12:36 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
I don't think it is unfair to mention the Charismatics. That the Charismatics in general are Trinitarian it is true. But we can't deny that it is easy to adopt Modalism within their circles. After all, that is where the Oneness Pentecostal came from.
Thirty years ago, there was a gulf between Charismatics and Pentecostals and both wanted everyone to understand that. (I was corrected several times until I understood.) Pentecostals were specific denominations. Charismatics were in all denominations (Baptist, Methodists, Presbyterian, Catholic, etc.) with no previous ties to Pentecostals. In the past 5-10 years, those distinctives have become blurred and they are used interchangeably. For me, it has become a little confusing at times.
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 3/24/2008 3:35:56 PM
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earthless
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Has anyone, in three pages, mentioned the most famous Oneness Pentecostal of our time? T.D. Jakes.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 3/24/2008 4:32:06 PM
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yosemite371
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t d jakes is a money gruber and i dont wont to be assosiated with him although i am oneness jhn 1:1-12 and beleive that u have to use keys that jesus gave peter in mathew 16:18-19 these are explained in acts 2:38 or should i say peter used them in this passage. t d jakes serves an altogether different god-money and the love there of. this is just another oneness bashing thread. earthless, why did yall send me here. thnx yo
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peace love and charity be with u all thnx yosemite371
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 3/24/2008 4:36:39 PM
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figmentPez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: yosemite371
this is just another oneness bashing thread.
So, you're just going to ignore all the scripture quotation, all the reasoned arguments, and dismiss it all as "bashing"?
Maybe you'll answer this one question:
Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
Daniel 7:13-14
13"I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. 14"And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 3/24/2008 4:39:35 PM
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yosemite371
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talk about ignoring u missed scripture i gave u. thnx yo
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peace love and charity be with u all thnx yosemite371
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 3/24/2008 4:50:17 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: yosemite371
talk about ignoring u missed scripture i gave u. thnx yo
There were 70 posts in this thread on the topic before yours and you read how many? The Oneness error cannot be defended but it will not die because people that follow it ignore the body of Christ. Go back to the beginning and refute scripture that has already been presented before you ever joined the forum.
Thank you.
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 3/24/2008 4:57:13 PM
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figmentPez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: yosemite371
talk about ignoring u missed scripture i gave u. thnx yo
What verses did I miss, and what relevance do they have to the topic at hand?
Also, answer my question, please.
Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 3/24/2008 5:20:29 PM
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yosemite371
Posts: 88
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that is what i meant u dont see my post u only argue and moderator has already said we could not debate here so this lets u know I DID read posts and that u are not paying mine any attention or u would know ur questions would have been answerd. this is why i say yall are bashing (not allowing defence). scripture is not in error then how am i in error. please refrain from saying my faith is an error. just because u dont beleive u dont have to bash my beleif. offence of others is not right and only shows ignorance. thnx yo
< Message edited by yosemite371 -- 3/24/2008 5:31:34 PM >
_____________________________
peace love and charity be with u all thnx yosemite371
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