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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/23/2008 10:28:27 PM
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Eric B
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eric B
But nobody out there teaches not to grow and produce good works. Just because we see some people not producing enough works and then appealing to a prayer does not give us the license to try to "up the ante" and make it harder to be saved.
But, Eric, they do. There are those who actually teach that once one has said the "sinner's prayer," they are automatically saved, and they are signed, sealed, and delivered for heaven, no matter what they do in life. This is actually a fairly common teaching! But that's still not the same as teaching them not to grow. And the point was, we can warn those people, and they will have to gove account before God, but we are not to now decide "well, all this "easy believism" is causing all this laxity, so we must scare them into obedience by saying they aren't saved". And don't forget these guys are Calvinist, and believe that is already decided anyway.
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ORIGINAL: Eric B
Where do we even get off deciding that these other Christians are not producing enough fruits, or their their faith is too "easy"? That is the spirit of legalism, and such people do not grasp their own sin, even if they have improved their behavior after conversion or are not [visibly] committing the same sins they may see another Christian engaged in.
Well, that may be your idea regarding people's response to the teaching above, but the Bible is clear that if we are truly saved, we will produce fruit. I have an apple tree. Right now, it is just jammed with apples -- apples that are too close together to allow apple-growth. These apples are about 1/2" in diameter, and there are literally hundreds of them on that tree. The apples may be useless right now, but they are still fruit. We all know that some people's fruit-of-salvation they produce are very small, but if they truly are believers, they will produce anyway. But there truly are those who have said that little prayer, and because they were taught wrong, there is no fruit other than rotten fruit. But how do we decide what is "fruit" in someone else? I guess if they're not committing adultery, blaspheming, etc.; But then we end up judging by a list of Laws, just like the Pharisees.
I just watched another video of him, and he even says that "wherever two or three are gathered, there I am" is not enough. They have to have some sort of tangible experience. So he's getting just like the worst of the charismatics, now. Many of them won't even place salvation on the experiences.
On that same video, he so correctly points out that Baptists have often formed their doctrines in opposition to false doctrine, and end up just as false. But he and others are doing the same thing, with this reaction to what they call "easy believism".
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ORIGINAL: Eric B
Salvation is not "trying harder", and it's amazing to have to preach this to Calvinists!
I am sorry, but while I have not heard everything Washer has preached, I did not hear him say this. What I heard him call for was taking G-d serious and producing fruit. But in practice; that would be defined by "trying harder", though God is credited for giving one the ability. If you're able to do it, you were genuinely empowered, and this is the "fruit".
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ORIGINAL: Eric B
...Everybody throws around that term "fire insurance", but isn't that really all we can have? If not; then you're really saying we can do something to help save ourselves from the fire! And that's still basically "fire insurance", only now you've upped the premium, (and claimed that God gave you the money for it).
No! We do NOT have a fire insurance salvation! That was never offered! We were offered the love of G-d. We were offered the Kingdom of G-d. We were offered the healing stripes on His back. He offered us eternity with Him, which happens to exclude an eternity with satan.
ANYONE who turns to G-d for a fire-insurance salvation gets less than they are bargaining for. If they stay with it, they will learn that salvation is not about fire insurance pretty quickly, if they are taught and/or learn.
Of course, the focus is not on just escaping the fire. But as you said, the love of God and healing is that we're saved from the fire and eternity with Satan and go to the Kingdom. But when they put down "fire insurance", they're not talking about the other benefits of salvation; they're saying the people aren't DOing enough to claim salvation.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/23/2008 10:56:11 PM
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StephK
Posts: 1967
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
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I am Southern Baptist and understand where he's coming from in regards to the history of the SBC. Paul Washer has had the backbone to preach the truth that needed to be told. I know many people who walked the aisle as a young kid and was no more saved than the man in the moon. This is a problem in the SBC. I have been blessed by his teaching.
_____________________________
Stephanie
Communism "IS" socialism....
"How do you tell a Socialist:- It's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an Anti-Socialist someone who understands Marx and Lenin" -Ronald Reagan
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/23/2008 10:57:42 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 557
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From: Rocky mountain way
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quote:
But that's still not the same as teaching them not to grow. And the point was, we can warn those people, and they will have to gove account before God, but we are not to now decide "well, all this "easy believism" is causing all this laxity, so we must scare them into obedience by saying they aren't saved".
He isnt trying to scare them into obdeience, he's trying to scare them into salvation. It is tragic actually when we tell people who have zero evidence of salvation, and even feel in their hearts they are not saved, that " oh no, thats just the enemy making you doubt, just resist him". This kind of mentality makes me absolutely angry, because this is what i was told by my group leader when i was a young man. And the way washer relates it is just as it was explained to me, basically word for word : "you prayed the Lord into your life right, yes. ok did you mean it? uh.... yes. ok then dave, your saved". no matter how many times i said " i dont think im saved" i was just blown off with the same line. This led to years of absolute spiritual schizophrenia and shipwreck. i was still smoking dope and drinking but since i still had jesus on my lips i was told i was just a "carnal christian" (a teaching by the way which is right out of hell). If someone claims Christ, yet still lives as the world does without any desire to seperate from it, you do great damage to that person by telling them they have salvation.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/23/2008 11:34:33 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Well, Eric, we see things differently. If we all saw things the same way, the world would spin a lot more slowly, I guess, and we'd all be thrown off into space. 
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eric B
But that's still not the same as teaching them not to grow.
To me, it is. A new believer who does not receive proper teaching that is able to help produce growth may as well be taught that they can believe whatever they choose and be just fine before G-d. In Acts 15, when some of the Jewish believers were trying to make a ruling that the new Gentiles had to be circumcised in order to be considered believers, Paul said (in other words), "Give them the basics for now. After all, they will be going to synagogue every Sabbath, so they will learn everything in time." And the Gentiles did, if the ones mentioned in Romans are any indication of how they handled things, because Paul says there that the Gentiles in Rome knew the Torah. Just as the new believers did then, today's new believers need to be taught the full truth today, because if they are not, any ol' false doctrine can easily creep in, taking them captive. And we both know that this is what happens, Eric.
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ORIGINAL: Eric B
But how do we decide what is "fruit" in someone else? I guess if they're not committing adultery, blaspheming, etc.; But then we end up judging by a list of Laws, just like the Pharisees.
According to the Bible, the fruits of salvation are evident: "By their fruits, we will know them."
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ORIGINAL: Eric B
I just watched another video of him, and he even says that "wherever two or three are gathered, there I am" is not enough. They have to have some sort of tangible experience. So he's getting just like the worst of the charismatics, now. Many of them won't even place salvation on the experiences.
But, Eric, I cannot comment on that, because I have not heard him say that. Not at all. Furthermore, I know that many people do have a specific incident related to the moment of their perception of the receipt of salvation. Bluntly, although I have a tendency to discount "experiences" as humanly worked-up excitement having less to do with G-d than with expectation and drama, I happen to be one of those. I remember very specifically when I knew that I was saved, where I was, and what happened.
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ORIGINAL: Eric B
Salvation is not "trying harder"
Absolutely! I agree! Salvation is the work of G-d and of G-d alone! But I did not hear Washer say that it wasn't. I did hear him say that salvation will produce fruit. And I agree!
< Message edited by Covaan_Meshuga -- 6/23/2008 11:43:57 PM >
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/24/2008 12:39:37 AM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 466
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If Paul Washers sermons are scary, then think for a moment what makes them scary?
It is Paul that is acting scary or is it what he's saying that could be the truth and we havent listened to it before?
When a preacher acts like Hell is real, sin is truly abominable to God and God actually will put the sinner in that hell because that sinner is abominable.....it strikes too close to home.
It isnt the word "Hell" that makes men fear, it isnt "judgment" that makes men fear or the sincere gravity and demeanor that he has when preaching. All this is not what makes men fear.
Men fear when they come into contact with the presence of God and the word of God together.
Men fear when they sense that God is an almighty judge and will not tolerate wickedness.
Think for a moment again. When Israel left Egypt to enter the promised land. God brought them to Mt Sinai (Horeb) to speak to them. When they came in contact with the powerful presence of God speaking out the law and His word, they drew back they didnt want to hear God again audibly. So they sent Moses as the go-between because their hearts were still full of sin. Yes, full of sin.
Listen, They saw the most powerful miraculous moves of God to date, they were healed when they left Eygpt and they were miraculously fed, over and over they knew the power of God in the healings and the miraculous....and sin was still safe and comfortable in their hearts. Aaron himself 'made the golden calf' and he was co-spokesman with Moses. Yet, we see that when it came to worshipping God directly, and hearing God directly, they could not abide his presence because the sin in their hearts condemned them and made them fearful God would judge them. God also justified their staying at the 'base of the mount' because with their evil hearts God would have destroyed all of them.
Paul Washer is taking us to the mount, He is taking us to Gods law and people are hearing God for the first time. They are repenting of their idols and golden calves that are still in their hearts and forsaking them. The message of grace is on the heels of his law preaching, the message of grace is sounding loud and clear. Grace=obedience its the new heart and birthing into the kingdom. Paul is telling us all that what we call grace is nothing more than human invention and the devise of man to placate evil in the heart while worshipping golden calves of our own making. Paul is telling the world that the golden calf of 'sinners prayers' and 'altar calls' have not saved anyone unless that prayer took them to the place where they genuinely believed.
No man genuinely believes that is willing to go back to Egypt carrying a golden calf as a peace offering so that the world will not reject them anymore. But God has out rightly rejected them and as proof they died in the wilderness not receiving the promises of God or the promised land. Worst of all they only knew God from afar, they worshipped from afar, they obeyed from afar and they died afar off from God and their intended home.
Dont tell me the body of Christ in america is not suffering from the same sin-sickness as the Israelites? We have the golden calf in the heart and when God doesnt do what we want, we quickily turn to another, and 'out came this calf'.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/24/2008 1:21:45 AM
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Stephanos
Posts: 1118
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
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Eric, your completely biased anti calvinism is stinking up this thread. Not only do you misunderstand what most (including Pastor Washer) believe as Calvinists, you (intentionally or not) try to attribute practices to Calvinism that should not be so.
FACT the bible calls BELIEVERS to repentance. Any one who claims to be a follower of Christ Jesus, but does not repent of their sins, DOES NOT HAVE CHRIST IN THEM! This is NOT works salvation, this is the evidence OF salvation. AS a born again Christian, I am CALLED to repent for the sins I have committed. And frankly that is something that is NOT taught in most of the church today. The easy belivism of the alter call and saying the magic words, then off you go is what is poisoning the church. NOT Pastor Washer telling us we NEED to CONTINUE to repent our sins.
Frankly your words scare me. Teaching the NEED for repentance is NOT works based. It is teaching what TRUE Christians (note the already saved part) should be doing!
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/24/2008 3:11:20 AM
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faithfulservant_
Posts: 385
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Eric B,
May I please suggest taking all your issues over to the Calvinism-Arminianism One Stop Thread. It offends me whenever you make negative comments about Pastor Paul Washer. I consider any type of criticism of Paul Washer as an indirect verbal assault on me.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/24/2008 9:37:40 AM
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Eric B
Posts: 61
Joined: 11/22/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
He isnt trying to scare them into obdeience, he's trying to scare them into salvation. Salvation (at least in this covenant) is not something a person is to be "scared" into. (Especially when the same people probably will say that someone motivated by fear is probably still not saved!) And then, the "salvation" is being defined purey interms of "obedience' at that.quote:
It is tragic actually when we tell people who have zero evidence of salvation, What is "zero evidence"? We cannot determine that. That is the mistake we are making. quote:
and even feel in their hearts they are not saved, that " oh no, thats just the enemy making you doubt, just resist him". This kind of mentality makes me absolutely angry, because this is what i was told by my group leader when i was a young man. And the way washer relates it is just as it was explained to me, basically word for word : "you prayed the Lord into your life right, yes. ok did you mean it? uh.... yes. ok then dave, your saved". no matter how many times i said " i dont think im saved" i was just blown off with the same line. This led to years of absolute spiritual schizophrenia and shipwreck. i was still smoking dope and drinking but since i still had jesus on my lips i was told i was just a "carnal christian" (a teaching by the way which is right out of hell). If someone claims Christ, yet still lives as the world does without any desire to seperate from it, you do great damage to that person by telling them they have salvation. So it's better to tell them that when they were stuggling with faith and asking questions (and yes, still had not gotten over all their sins), that if they died, they would have gone to Hell, because they still hadn't done the right thing yet? (Then, later in their life, if they have some struggle again, and maybe even fall back into the same sin), it will be the same thing all over again). That is what used to drive people mad, expecially from a perspective where whoever is saved or lost is really predetermined anyway!
As for "carnal Christians" being from Hell, what do you do with the Corinthians? Declare that they were unsaved as well?
< Message edited by Eric B -- 6/24/2008 10:19:01 AM >
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/24/2008 9:46:00 AM
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Eric B
Posts: 61
Joined: 11/22/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
Well, Eric, we see things differently. If we all saw things the same way, the world would spin a lot more slowly, I guess, and we'd all be thrown off into space.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eric B
But that's still not the same as teaching them not to grow.
To me, it is. A new believer who does not receive proper teaching that is able to help produce growth may as well be taught that they can believe whatever they choose and be just fine before G-d. But that doesn't mean telling people they have to be producing the works before they can be considered saved. quote:
In Acts 15, when some of the Jewish believers were trying to make a ruling that the new Gentiles had to be circumcised in order to be considered believers, Paul said (in other words), "Give them the basics for now. After all, they will be going to synagogue every Sabbath, so they will learn everything in time." And the Gentiles did, if the ones mentioned in Romans are any indication of how they handled things, because Paul says there that the Gentiles in Rome knew the Torah. Just as the new believers did then, today's new believers need to be taught the full truth today, because if they are not, any ol' false doctrine can easily creep in, taking them captive. And we both know that this is what happens, Eric.
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ORIGINAL: Eric B
But how do we decide what is "fruit" in someone else? I guess if they're not committing adultery, blaspheming, etc.; But then we end up judging by a list of Laws, just like the Pharisees.
According to the Bible, the fruits of salvation are evident: "By their fruits, we will know them." And what were the "fruits" in that context? Jesus was referring to false prohpets, not new converts who have not gotten over all their sins yet. We have to keep these things in context, else we end up judging. And eventually, this will turn back into perfectionism, like "stop sinning.com". But then perhaps Christ will need to be writing on the ground again, to get people off their high horses.
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ORIGINAL: Eric B
I just watched another video of him, and he even says that "wherever two or three are gathered, there I am" is not enough. They have to have some sort of tangible experience. So he's getting just like the worst of the charismatics, now. Many of them won't even place salvation on the experiences.
But, Eric, I cannot comment on that, because I have not heard him say that. Not at all. Furthermore, I know that many people do have a specific incident related to the moment of their perception of the receipt of salvation. Bluntly, although I have a tendency to discount "experiences" as humanly worked-up excitement having less to do with G-d than with expectation and drama, I happen to be one of those. I remember very specifically when I knew that I was saved, where I was, and what happened. I'll have to find it again
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ORIGINAL: Eric B
Salvation is not "trying harder"
Absolutely! I agree! Salvation is the work of G-d and of G-d alone! But I did not hear Washer say that it wasn't. I did hear him say that salvation will produce fruit. And I agree!
Nobody's denying that.
Are you the same Abiyah who used to be on BaptistBoard?
If so, I know you were into the Torah and sabbath. So you're into this "Lordship" movement now?
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/24/2008 10:09:46 AM
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Eric B
Posts: 61
Joined: 11/22/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace
Paul Washer is taking us to the mount, He is taking us to Gods law and people are hearing God for the first time. They are repenting of their idols and golden calves that are still in their hearts and forsaking them. The message of grace is on the heels of his law preaching, the message of grace is sounding loud and clear. Grace=obedience its the new heart and birthing into the kingdom. Paul is telling us all that what we call grace is nothing more than human invention and the devise of man to placate evil in the heart while worshipping golden calves of our own making. Paul is telling the world that the golden calf of 'sinners prayers' and 'altar calls' have not saved anyone unless that prayer took them to the place where they genuinely believed.
No man genuinely believes that is willing to go back to Egypt carrying a golden calf as a peace offering
I don't know, but we need to be careful accusing others of "golden calves" and largely over some generality. There may be a lot of noninal Christians out there, but it seems you all are ready to conclude the entire Church lost except for perhaps Lordship advocates.
And "Grace=obedience"?  This again is exactly what the Catholics and Campbellists (blatant professing works-salvationists) claimed, regarding Titus 2:11. Grace become instructions for holy living. But if that's true, then entry to Heaven becomes a reward for that holy living, with the instructions as the "key", and hence, the "grace". But "grace" means unmerited favor. It is not instructions to do something. The grace then gives us the motivation to live holy, in love, (John 14:15, 1 John 4:19) not to gain heaven.
So you can warn people that if they are not living holy, whether they truly love God or not, and then it is for them to look into their hearts and see if they had really received Christ in a saving way. But we are not to go around declaring everyone unsaved. Agasin, grace is receiving, not giving!
I liked Cameron and Comfort's method of using the Law, but at the same time, we must remember that we are not back in the Old Testament (which seems to be the model people use to pronounce judgment and charges of "idolatry" on the entire church). Grace has appeared since then, and it's not simply rehashing the same OC, with only some "enabling" added.
< Message edited by Eric B -- 6/24/2008 10:16:39 AM >
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/24/2008 10:43:41 AM
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Eric B
Posts: 61
Joined: 11/22/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
Eric, your completely biased anti calvinism is stinking up this thread. Not only do you misunderstand what most (including Pastor Washer) believe as Calvinists, you (intentionally or not) try to attribute practices to Calvinism that should not be so. That's the same thing they always say. Everyone's misunderstanding them. I think I have articulated it accurately. The link I gave, for instance (Dave J. Stewart), accuses him of works-righteousness, but does not point out that they believe that it is God who enables people to do the works. Yet I do point this out. And isn't that basically what the belief is? If God has chosen you and regenerated you, you'll have a miraculous change of life; if He really hasn't, then it will be a false conversion.
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FACT the bible calls BELIEVERS to repentance. Any one who claims to be a follower of Christ Jesus, but does not repent of their sins, DOES NOT HAVE CHRIST IN THEM! This is NOT works salvation, this is the evidence OF salvation. AS a born again Christian, I am CALLED to repent for the sins I have committed. And frankly that is something that is NOT taught in most of the church today. The easy belivism of the alter call and saying the magic words, then off you go is what is poisoning the church. NOT Pastor Washer telling us we NEED to CONTINUE to repent our sins. How is it poisoning the Church? If all of these people are unsaved because of the bad teaching, they they simply were not called, according to the theology. So this is an attempt to throw blame to gain credibility.
Are you really repenting of ALL your sins? That's why I used the term it's not about "trying harder". That's apparently the difference between you and all these other Christians you all keep pointing at. You either keep the whole law perfectly (with God's empowerment, it's now hypothetically possible), and are saved by it, or by your own standard, you are just as lost and following something "too easy" as everybody else! This is what happens when you play around with works-justification. I can't know if you're keeping it, because I don't see you, and know your every thought. (which is ALSO included!) You just have to assert that you do compared to everyone else. 2 Cor. 10:12 says "they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise."
I don't think that Michael Horton, himself a staunch Reformed Calvinist is mixed up in this Lordship movement, but he said well in Beyond Culture Wars that people get on these high horses because they themselves don't understand the full demands and severity of the Law (as much as they may preach it at others). People are much like the rich young ruler.
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Frankly your words scare me. Teaching the NEED for repentance is NOT works based. It is teaching what TRUE Christians (note the already saved part) should be doing! And no one is denying you need to repent. But judging a person based on their works (and determining they did not "repent") and declaring them lost because of not enough works is what we are getting at.
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ORIGINAL: faithfulservant_
Eric B,
May I please suggest taking all your issues over to the Calvinism-Arminianism One Stop Thread. It offends me whenever you make negative comments about Pastor Paul Washer. I consider any type of criticism of Paul Washer as an indirect verbal assault on me.
I'm sorry if Calvinism is considered too off topic for this particular discussion. It comes up because it is an integral part of Washer's theology (which is my "issue"), and again, I do make the point that while he is preaching works, the Calvinistic concept is what supposedly keeps salvation "of God" in that scheme. So I have made that point, and can try to mention that less.
As for your last statement, first, is this thread only for appraisal of him, or for anyone, critical or favoring to state their opinions?
Second, it is amazing that you would get so deeply personally upset like that at any criticism of him. I'm sorry, but that is not good. That smacks of idolizing the man, to me. We can get personally upset if someone attacks Jesus, because He is the author and finisher of our faith, and we are His Body, and what people do to us, they do/say to Him. But not some other man like this, no matter how good a preacher he may be.
And I'm not even attacking him, just criticizing one point of his theology. Everybody is going to be criticize. It seems that's all we the Church today do to each other. Everybody rising up, claiming to be the true Prophet thundering everybody else back into line, and Washer is apart of this, if not the epitome of it at the monent. So the next time, if you ever see someone get upset at his apparently constant denunciation of Joel Olsteen (Who I myself do not care for, and don't see anyone here getting that angry for his sake), then just think about this.
This here is the ultimate illustration of what I am saying. You all, following his words, are accusing the entire modern church of "idolatry", but you may be falling into it yourself! Does this mean you're not really saved? When we get back into the Law, we often forget that there is the letter, and there is the spirit, and though you may watch others violating the letter and judge them over it; you yourself could be violating the spirit. This is why "the letter kills, but the spirit gives life". (2 Cor.3:6)
So people are quick to hold up how fearful or angry others get at Washer's teaching as the ultimate proof that "this is the truth": "they are worshipping the golden calf and hearing the Law for the first time", yet we see that my words "scare" one of you, while making the other upset and wanting me to go away. Sounds familiar? The Pharisees were the most angry at God's true messengers, and their aim wasn't "easy believism", but rather the opposite. So both extremes are just as offended at the real Gospel message, or in actuality, the "hard believism" moreso, because it destroys their works-merit (even if they try to credit God for it, like the Israelites in fact did). Again, you are essentially no different from all of these other Christians. You're just perhaps performing better in daily living, but salvation is not in performance. Scripture has concluded ALL under sin; "NOT ONE" is good. It is purely by God's unmerited favor that anyone can be saved. So while we preach to people that they should grow, we need to be careful with judging people as unsaved over works.
< Message edited by Eric B -- 6/24/2008 11:26:13 AM >
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/24/2008 11:10:38 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3479
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: a mother who let me live
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eric B
But how do we decide what is "fruit" in someone else? I guess if they're not committing adultery, blaspheming, etc.; But then we end up judging by a list of Laws, just like the Pharisees.
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ORIGINAL: Abiyah
According to the Bible, the fruits of salvation are evident: "By their fruits, we will know them."
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eric B
And what were the "fruits" in that context? Jesus was referring to false prohpets, not new converts who have not gotten over all their sins yet. We have to keep these things in context, else we end up judging. And eventually, this will turn back into perfectionism, like "stop sinning.com". But then perhaps Christ will need to be writing on the ground again, to get people off their high horses.
You are absolutely right, Eric. That's what I get for doing this from memory, rather than actually consulting my Bible. I was wrong to use that Scripture. Since we are using the term fruit, let's try the one that says that the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance. And there are Scriptures that say that the fruit of salvation is holiness, another that includes truth and righteousness, and so on. We could stop and look them up, if you wish, but they are clearly there: salvation will produce good fruit; if one doesn't see good fruit, salvation is non-existent.
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ORIGINAL: Eric B
Are you the same Abiyah who used to be on BaptistBoard?
If so, I know you were into the Torah and sabbath. So you're into this "Lordship" movement now?
Now, that is amazing! Yes! That's me! I so regretted when they restricted me there to the point of no longer being able to communicate, because I really liked it there and enjoyed the people. But CW has been very good to me, and I think I have learned to like it heere even more. Yes, I still love Torah and still observe the Sabbaths. However, I have no idea what you mean by "this 'Lordship' movement." Is that some particular belief system?
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Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/24/2008 11:45:54 AM
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Eric B
Posts: 61
Joined: 11/22/2005
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
Since we are using the term fruit, let's try the one that says that the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance. And there are Scriptures that say that the fruit of salvation is holiness, another that includes truth and righteousness, and so on. We could stop and look them up, if you wish, but they are clearly there: salvation will produce good fruit; if one doesn't see good fruit, salvation is non-existent.
Again, we have to be very careful determining that others have "no fruit". I have seen people do that, and then themselves fall back into all kinds of sin.
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ORIGINAL: Eric B
Are you the same Abiyah who used to be on BaptistBoard?
If so, I know you were into the Torah and sabbath. So you're into this "Lordship" movement now?
Now, that is amazing! Yes! That's me! I so regretted when they restricted me there to the point of no longer being able to communicate, because I really liked it there and enjoyed the people. But CW has been very good to me, and I think I have learned to like it heere even more. Yes, I still love Torah and still observe the Sabbaths. Oh, OK!
I didn't know you were restricted! The last I remember was that we were having an intense debate on the sabbath (I still remember you by your picture you used as avatar), and you seemed to get frustrated and then stopped posting. I even looked you up on the member directory a few months ago to see what happened to you, and you hadn't been on for years.
Yeah, they are ridiculous over there, and I'm now dab smack middle of a one year self-imposed break. All that stuff wore me out, and it gets to the point that it's fruitless.
For instance:
Sometime after you left, there was some new doctrine called "Millennial Exclusion", which actually would have been a perfect solution to debates like this. A person whose works excludes them from the first resurrection would miss out on the Milennium, but still be saved after it. That way, salvation was still by grace and not works, yet there was a missing out of something if you did not keep up the works, explaining all the scriptures that seem to teach works.
Of course, this is basically like a purgatory, and I did not quite see enough scriptural evidence for it. It just seemed like a nice on-the-fly attempt to patch up the holes in the endless OSAS/perseverance, and salvation vs works debates over there.
Well, they come down hard on that, forbid anyone to teach it and ban everyone teaching it, and even put up a special sticky on it. Yet, they're still allowing Campbellists and Catholics (including a rash of Eastern Orthodox getting really aggressive at one point), with their blatant "works" (baptism, communion, process salvation) and "we're the One True Church" doctrines, and then other regulars like Bob Ryan with his repetitive cut and pasting, and I just got completely tired. (They would only ban a person if it were evident that they were "proselytizing", yet otherwise, they could argue it all they wanted, while ME was completely silenced, and it's not as antibiblical as the works-salvationism of Catholicism). I did not have time for all of that anymore, with my job, plus online, I'm a bit more into type theory (MBTI, etc) now. I have been looking again at some soteriological issues which they wouldn't approve of as well, seeing how hard they were on ME. But I plan to go back there perhaps in January and perhaps stay out of the "Other Denominations" area. That place really hooks you in, and the posts are fast, while the board is kind of slow as well (especially on the mobile).
It is discrouraging, because all of this dispute shows that the Church today is completely mixed up, it looks like no one knows what the truth of the Bible really is; everyone only takes their own preconceived doctrines and proof-texts and tells the other person their doctrine is unscriptural, while others give up on doctrine completely, and hence all the "lax, apathetic Christians out there" with the entertainment, prosperity, "feel good" Olsteen stuff, etc. (And then I'm supposed to be able to go and witness boldly to a world watching all of this, and totally unconvinced of our message as we can't even get it straight among ourselves!) This is what allows doctrines such as Lordship to move in and take advantage of the situation, and because of all the confusion, it sounds like what they're saying is true; it looks like solid teaching for those unhappy with all the mess. But it's just another part of the problem when it distorts the Gospel in the opposite direction.
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However, I have no idea what you mean by "this 'Lordship' movement." Is that some particular belief system? That's the name given this brand of theology, with John MacArthur basically its leading advocate. I describe in in the post on the previous page when someone asked about it. It basically got its name because it teaches Christ is only "Lord" of a person if they produce a certain amount of works, or have an immediate change of life at conversion, and thus demands they "make Him Lord" by their works in order to be saved. (and it also gets in to the claim that they should already be bearing the "fruit" through "hatred of sin" when the evangelist talks to him). Again, that is a misleading term for it, but it is what it is now known as.
So I was asking you if that is what you now believed. (Particularly its Calvinistic basis, also discussed above).
< Message edited by Eric B -- 6/24/2008 12:46:03 PM >
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/24/2008 1:23:23 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
Posts: 953
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: Eric B
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ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
Hi Eric - I would like to comment in red next to yours -
Eric wrote -
Salvation is not "trying harder", and it's amazing to have to preach this to Calvinists! They accuse Arminians of being "closet Catholics", but again, what these guys are teaching is exactly the same as what Catholics teach about "works" and a "process" of salvation.
And it doesn't really produce genuine revival. It scares people for awhile (and then many Calvinists will say that if you're only believing to escape Hell, then you're still going there!   ) only to have them rebel in frustration generations later after they can no longer take all the fear. Lets not throw labels around here, but just deal with doctrine. Again, According to Ephesins 2:8-9 we are SAVED BY GRACE THRU FATIH, NOT OF WORKS". I as a christian dont want just to be saved to escape hell, I want to be saved so I can love the Lord completely. (and I am a calvinist christian by the way).
Everybody throws around that term "fire insurance", but isn't that really all we can have? If not; then you're really saying we can do something to help save ourselves from the fire! And that's still basically "fire insurance", only now you've upped the premium, (and claimed that God gave you the money for it). I hope you love the Lord for more than fire insurance.
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the "lordship" doctrine, which I've been hearing, I think - (correct me if Im wrong),, but is this where people beleive in making jesus not just savior, but also Lord. if so, that is totally biblical... as we dont just make jesus our personal santa claus, but he is Lord of our heart, life, soul, etc. he is our Lord and Savior, Master, etc. We are his property, as "we were bought with a price" "ye are not your own". That is what I think "lordship" means. that's not calvinistic - thats just being totally surrendered to the Lord. NO! That's exactly what I thought it meant as well. But in practice, what it refers to is the claim that a person has to be producing the fruit before the evangelistic approach, and afterwards, satisfy some nondescript demand of "growth" in order to be considered "saved". It's basically the Calvinistic doctrine of regeneration before conversion, taken to another level. Basically, Christ is already their "Lord" when given the Gospel, and they will already be producing some fruits of it, such as "hating their sin". Hence, no "sinner's prayer", or "asking them if they want to be saved". Eric, we will produce fruit if we abide in the vine - Jesus. Thats what the Bible says,, its not what i thought of. Works and fruit will happen as a result of the Holy Spirit living in us. any "good works" produced BEFORE salvation is just filthy rags,, as we have NO good works in us before salvation. Sanctification is a continuing process where your old fleshly desires will become less and less desirable up to totally throwing them off completely and instead loving Jesus and holiness.
That's a bad name for the teaching, since it does seem to simply refer to the acceptance of Christ as Lord. Here, I found a critic of him: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/paul_washer.htm (ridiculous KJVO fundie; can't even discuss the issue without mentioning "rock & roll drums" in the background of one of the videos). It looks like he is denying the need of making Jesus lord, repentance, and holy living. He really isn't, but the issue is "requiring the FRUIT of repentance as part of saving grace" and "that a person is not saved who doesn't have a drastic turnabout in their lifestyle". I also like how he says "Salvation is receiving; NOT giving!" Ok I didn't want to go see that video because I perceive it is something making fun of paul Washer. Remember not to diss Paul Washer irreverently because Jesus Christ lives in him, and therefore you would be dissing the Lord inside Paul Washer. Remember David would not even speak against King Saul because he did not want to speak against the Lord's anointed? You again, are not listenign to what I and others are saying but you are still quoting your own stubborn beliefs. Please listen again with your spirit - not your flesh - it is true that the fruit of repentence is holiness, because repnt means to TURN AWAY FROM. if you claim you repent but keep going back, then you have NOT repented. Jesus Christ WILL produce a dramatic turnaround in a person, just like if a big truck hit you, you would have a dramatic evidence that something powerful hit you - well, God is bigger than a truck! some things are subtle too, but if you have a huge sin in your life, when you are saved, truly saved, you will most likely turn that around and not do it anymore, because that sin stinks to you now. You are a new creation in Christ. We are continually being transformed into the image of God's dear Son, Jesus.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/24/2008 5:33:48 PM
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Eric B
Posts: 61
Joined: 11/22/2005
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
Lets not throw labels around here, but just deal with doctrine. Again, According to Ephesins 2:8-9 we are SAVED BY GRACE THRU FATIH, NOT OF WORKS". I as a christian dont want just to be saved to escape hell, I want to be saved so I can love the Lord completely. (and I am a calvinist christian by the way).
What label did I throw out? I'm just describing what has been going on.
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I hope you love the Lord for more than fire insurance. Of course! And fire insurance is not my term, it is the "label" Lordshippers are throwing at others, so it's not what I "love".
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Eric, we will produce fruit if we abide in the vine - Jesus. Thats what the Bible says,, its not what i thought of. Works and fruit will happen as a result of the Holy Spirit living in us. any "good works" produced BEFORE salvation is just filthy rags,, as we have NO good works in us before salvation. Sanctification is a continuing process where your old fleshly desires will become less and less desirable up to totally throwing them off completely and instead loving Jesus and holiness. And who can judge whether someone isn't "producing" enough? (Of course, God can, is the only One who should be, and we do not see into man like He does). We can admonish people to growing; not pronounce almost an entire body of Christians as "probably" unsaved, or whatever. And your description of "process sanctification" sounds just like what a Catholic once described to me. Do you really think that anyone has "thrown them off completely". A lot of more "conservative" types say that, but nobody sees any literally "perfect" people anywhere. It is easy to preach that when those you're preaching to cannot see your whole life.
So again, the answer is not judging, it is showing each otherthe same mercy God has shown us (If the person judging has even received that mercy himself, that is!)
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Ok I didn't want to go see that video because I perceive it is something making fun of Paul Washer. Remember not to diss Paul Washer irreverently because Jesus Christ lives in him, and therefore you would be dissing the Lord inside Paul Washer. Remember David would not even speak against King Saul because he did not want to speak against the Lord's anointed? OK; (though I'm not "dissing" him); but it's OK for him to dog Joel Olsteen, though. Of course, Olsteen is "false", and Washer is "just true", right? While there is only one truth, I see too many people claiming to speak that one truth, and they all have their proof-texts, and denounce each other. Not only Lordship vs. belief-alone, but also Calvinism vs Arminianism in general, OSAS vs perseverance, old-line fundamentalism vs new-evangelicalism, saying many of the same things, and the the Catholics and various sects claiming to be the "true Church". Each person thinks HE is Moses coming down from the Mount, and has the right to denounce everyone else, but someone say one word about him, he (or his devotees) cries martyrdom.
So it is obvious that God has not been directing a "true Church" or "true prophets/apostles" for a long time, with all the dispute, dissension and apostasy all of Christian history. (You can argue he's starting now through this person; but then that's what all groups appealing to a "latter rain" in the "end days" are saying; so wait in line and we'll see. And the Catholics will claim they were the true "Body" all along).
So we need more humility in dealing with each other. You can't denounce others and not expect to be criticized back. Just because the message is "tough" and offends people does not mean it is automatically the truth, and all mouths must be stopped. Plenty of other sects have similar beliefs they try to impose on others, and we do not listen to them, and instead denounce them back.
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You again, are not listenign to what I and others are saying but you are still quoting your own stubborn beliefs. And here you go with just what I was talking about. We're right; shut up and listen. (I saw the same attitude in the aftermath of James White-Dave Hunt controversy). You all are just quoting your stubborn beliefs as well. I am listenig. All I was doing there was answering someone else's question, and actually clearing up misconceptions about the doctrine in the link. (That was actually a text criticism, not a video. Though you definitely wouldn't like it, as this person does the same thing and questions the salvation of anyone he considers a "false teacher". That is going way too far for me, especially when he misses some of the points of the doctrine such as its monergistic orientation. But again, everybody's just denouncint each other, thinking they alone have the truth. They're all birds of a feather to me!) quote:
Please listen again with your spirit - not your flesh Actually; your side is the one getting the most angry and defensive (which is supposed to be the sign of "the flesh" you're referring to, right?); not me. Again, we are so quick to throw out these "Christianeze" cliches, yet we're pointing right back at ourselves! quote:
- it is true that the fruit of repentence is holiness, because repnt means to TURN AWAY FROM. if you claim you repent but keep going back, then you have NOT repented. Jesus Christ WILL produce a dramatic turnaround in a person, just like if a big truck hit you, you would have a dramatic evidence that something powerful hit you - well, God is bigger than a truck! some things are subtle too, but if you have a huge sin in your life, when you are saved, truly saved, you will most likely turn that around and not do it anymore, because that sin stinks to you now. You are a new creation in Christ. We are continually being transformed into the image of God's dear Son, Jesus. Actually, as that link points out, "REPENT" literally means "a change of mind". It's "turning from" in the mind. We all may have turned in our minds, but we still all give in to the flesh, and there is nobody who has completely "turned" in their behavior. Else, they wouldn't need Christ anymore. So to judge others based on behavior will only serve to get a person possibly judged themselves.
< Message edited by Eric B -- 6/24/2008 5:47:36 PM >
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/24/2008 11:19:40 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 557
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
Status: offline
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It is tragic actually when we tell people who have zero evidence of salvation,What is "zero evidence"? We cannot determine that. That is the mistake we are making
Are you kidding?. A person who has no desire to read Gods word, has no desire to pray, who lives just as the world lives and is comfortable with habitualy sinning. you can look at someone in that situation and still tell them, "ahh, your just doubting, dont let it bother you". Is salvation just some one saying the sinners prayer, is that all it takes?. No, it is not now, nor ever has been.
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As for "carnal Christians" being from Hell, what do you do with the Corinthians? Declare that they were unsaved as well?
Paul here is addressing the church concerning divisions as to who's teaching they followed. This is not about sin in all its facets as a way of life. You arminians have stretched this verse far beyond its meaning and have created a doctrine that has no biblical basis.
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But that doesn't mean telling people they have to be producing the works before they can be considered saved.
James 2:20 (King James Version)
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:26 (King James Version)
26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also
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don't know, but we need to be careful accusing others of "golden calves" and largely over some generality. There may be a lot of noninal Christians out there, but it seems you all are ready to conclude the entire Church lost except for perhaps Lordship advocates.
Well, according to the parable of the seeds, out of the four types of soil only one type grew anything that remained, small harvest per capita. also, there is that whole "narrow is the gate and few who find it" thing. Also know that Christ dosent need our approval to be Lord, He is.
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And "Grace=obedience"? This again is exactly what the Catholics and Campbellists (blatant professing works-salvationists) claimed, regarding Titus 2:11. Grace become instructions for holy living. But if that's true, then entry to Heaven becomes a reward for that holy living
yet again eric you put the cart before the horse. Our obediance to His commandments is in response to our having been saved, not as a means to gain salvation. Quit acting like this hasent been explained before.
1 John 2:3 (King James Version)
3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 3:24
And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Revelation 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city
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we must remember that we are not back in the Old Testament (which seems to be the model people use to pronounce judgment and charges of "idolatry" on the entire church). Grace has appeared since then, and it's not simply rehashing the same OC, with only some "enabling" added.
Dispensationalist mumbojumbo. Been there done that for twenty years: "thats OT", "sermon on the mount not for the church", "pauline epistles only", blah blah blah. Its why i left it, and its showing cracks in its foundation
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The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/25/2008 10:27:12 AM
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Eric B
Posts: 61
Joined: 11/22/2005
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: HisFish
Are you kidding?. A person who has no desire to read Gods word, has no desire to pray, who lives just as the world lives and is comfortable with habitualy sinning. you can look at someone in that situation and still tell them, "ahh, your just doubting, dont let it bother you". Is salvation just some one saying the sinners prayer, is that all it takes?. No, it is not now, nor ever has been. But that's not the only type of person Washer and others seem to be talking about, and even then, you add stuff that the Bible does not stake salvation on. We are told to read God's Word and pray, but that is never held up as a "fruit" of salvation. We can question why a person doesn't, and even if they fall into some of those other sins. But it seems like you all are intent to make a list of rules one needs to follow to be saved. And you're apparently never considering what happens if you one day fall into those things. I guess you don't think you ever will. But then beware, because Calvin did say that God grants reprobates "false faith" that He later "takes away", so they can die lost. Remember, it's not just doing the works, it's persevering in them till "the end". When I discussed this with Catholics they had to confess that they had no guarantee that they would make it in the end; it's just "try your best now". That is not the Gospel!
Again, it is easy to preach this stuff when no one else here can see you. Some child molester can come and demand absolute perfection from others on a board or TV screen, and who can say anything to that? So again, such judgment is not the Gospel.
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Paul here is addressing the church concerning divisions as to who's teaching they followed. This is not about sin in all its facets as a way of life. You arminians have stretched this verse far beyond its meaning and have created a doctrine that has no biblical basis. verse? I didn't give you just a "verse"; I just said "Corinthians", which is not one, but two entire books! Look at chapters 5 and 6 of the first book, for starters.
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But that doesn't mean telling people they have to be producing the works before they can be considered saved.
James 2:20 (King James Ver | | |
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