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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 2/20/2008 2:34:20 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheodenKing
John:
Dude, I was a member of SG for 9 years....
Ted, I'd say welcome, but since your introductory posts were to bash my very good friend, I'll withhold that welcome until I know you better. But, FWIW, this is a thread among friends, which would have been obvious if you'd read the folder description before jumping in with both feet.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 2/20/2008 3:01:17 PM
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TheodenKing
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Ephesians 4_32:
I teach at a Mennonite school. Good folks. We agree to disagree on some soteriological points.
Ted
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 2/20/2008 3:33:12 PM
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JimboFletch
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Just a reminder, here is the title and description of this folder:
Theo House
Just think of this as the Theology folder coffee shop. You'll find community interaction not of a theological nature.
And for good measure, here's the title of this thread:
Reformed Theology Chat Thread
There's a whole other folder for hashing out doctrinal issues.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 2/20/2008 4:36:07 PM
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kelman
Posts: 3139
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheodenKing
John:
Dude, I was a member of SG for 9 years.
Yes, I post on SG Uncensored.
Your stereotypical reply about said blog is incorrect on a variety of fronts, but first:
1. My soteriology is solidly Reformed. If ya wanna know, I'm a 5-Pointer.
2. My eschatology leans either Amil or Historic Pre.
3. I have a BA in History, halfway towards a Master's, and I have some seminary-NOT "Pastor's College," BTW-training.
I can tell you this, IMO:
There is a fundamental flaw in SGM that I think is the reason you have so many hurt, ex-SG members. Yes, there a are a LOT of us out there. There are several in my own local area. Many of us have been "burned." Some of us have suffered heavy-handed "shepherding."
( My wife was told that the childhood sexual and emotional abuse she suffered was not "important, rather your response is," and, "You're better ff than you deserve." Dontcha love that couselling expertise? )<Sarcsam intended>
I think the flaw is quite obvious, and it underlies much of SGM:
I have repeated it over and over, ad nauseum, ad infinitum, on the SG Uncensored site:
It's SG's adoption of the neo-Pentecostal/charismatic "apostolic church government." I mean, after all, WHO can disagree with an apostle? It is "apostolic oversight."
Such oversight NO longer can exist, and can only lead, at some point, to sinful usurping of power. The last apostle, St. John, died c.a. AD 100. There have been none since, in spite of what some maintain. The governing exercised by SG is NOT “essentially reformed.” It flies in the face of Reformers like Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, the Anabaptists. It is copied from the “charismatic” movement of the 60’s-70’s which maintained that the “sign gifts” had been somehow restored to the church in an outpouring described as a “Latter Day Rain.” One of those “sign gifts” was the gift of an apostle.
Attempts at “restoring” this “sign gift” as a part of “renewal” has lead to some tragic results, such as the “Shepherding Movement,” abuse of power within SGM, financial scandals/lack of accountability in prominent televangelistic ministries, etc.
It was NOT meant to be “restored.” God had a definite plan and purpose in His sovereignty, and in His plan for HIs elect church. That plan included apostles who laid the foundations. After the foundations were laid, the apostles were finished with their God-given mandates. I sincerely believe God, in His Providence and sovereignty, protected the apostolic office from hint of corruption, scandal, etc., so that He would establish His church firmly and strongly.
Because we are all sinners, the temptation to assume roles we should not and to don mantles we should not exist. When we we trespass, danger lurks. Absolute power in the hands of sinners corrupts absolutely. Thus, when CJ-or Brent-or ANYONE else assumes the role of an “apostle,” and attempts to govern a body of believers accordingly, danger lurks. Their intentions may be noble, especially at the start. But time inevitably shows us what the results will be.
There are many clear indications and hints in the Bible that the office of Apostle was temporary. Furthermore, church history, of which I am an avid fan, indicates the same.
In your words, Blah, blah, blah, and, "whatever."
I would suggest that issues with heavy-handed shepherding a la SGM is NOT merely "personal," but also DOCTRINAL.
Ted
I appreciate your post. I had no idea this movement has re-instituted the office of Apostle. This clearly is anti-biblical. The only other church to do this, as far as I know, is LDS; and, of course, RCC, which teaches the office never ended.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 2/20/2008 4:47:19 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
I appreciate your post. I had no idea this movement has re-instituted the office of Apostle. This clearly is anti-biblical. The only other church to do this, as far as I know, is LDS; and, of course, RCC, which teaches the office never ended.
No, there are several protestant denominations that claim apostolic succession. Mostly pentecostal.
And for the record, I don't consider LDS worth mentioning, since it isn't Christian, only a perversion.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 2/20/2008 4:54:11 PM
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Doveflight
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From: middle of nowhere 4 hrs from anywhere
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On another note concerning the topic at hand. It is very hard to explain one's pain among those
who are involved and supporting of the group in discussion, who ever they are. I have been in this place from another fellowship following another current leader. I grieve for those who have similar experiences. From my learning out of the situation, it really is a place that God put ME
in and when I sought Him and His purpose I found He had much to teach me which caused me much humility. Theodenking and other posters obviously feel their pain intensely and desire to correct the errors of man. Perhaps that was my error as well. I attempted to change man instead of allowing God to change them. Meanwhile, I have found peace in God's sovereignty.
_____________________________
If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I am made for another world. C.S. Lewis
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 2/20/2008 5:56:31 PM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
I appreciate your post. I had no idea this movement has re-instituted the office of Apostle. This clearly is anti-biblical. The only other church to do this, as far as I know, is LDS; and, of course, RCC, which teaches the office never ended.
No, there are several protestant denominations that claim apostolic succession. Mostly pentecostal.
And for the record, I don't consider LDS worth mentioning, since it isn't Christian, only a perversion.
Thanks for the correction. I wasn't aware of these other denominations; but, can you really call them "Protestant"?
As for LDS and its perversions, that's true; but, there's almost as many perversions in what we call "real" Christian churches.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 2/21/2008 1:37:07 PM
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pricelesspearl
Posts: 1279
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I haven't had time lately to keep up with the thread...but if I could interrupt...and request prayer for my son, Sean.
The restaurant he works at was robbed and his manager was shot and killed in front of him. And there were other complicating circumstances I don't have time to go into. He is doing better, but still having a difficult time of things. I sure would appreciate prayer right now.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 2/21/2008 1:45:08 PM
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doinkdom
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I am so grieved to hear about your son.
Praying as I type....
_____________________________
Religion is about me. Gospel is about Jesus -- Mark Driscoll
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 2/21/2008 5:11:35 PM
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Doveflight
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Oh PP I am so sorry to hear this. He must be traumatized. Our neighbor viewed a shooting in his school and he had much difficulty afterwards. I am praying for Sean and yourself.
_____________________________
If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I am made for another world. C.S. Lewis
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 2/22/2008 3:28:09 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3139
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pricelesspearl
I haven't had time lately to keep up with the thread...but if I could interrupt...and request prayer for my son, Sean.
The restaurant he works at was robbed and his manager was shot and killed in front of him. And there were other complicating circumstances I don't have time to go into. He is doing better, but still having a difficult time of things. I sure would appreciate prayer right now.
What a horrific thing for your son to have witnessed. I know how concerned for him you must be. You both will be in my prayers.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 2/22/2008 9:38:09 AM
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TheoJunkie
Posts: 2378
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From: Death to Life
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PP,
I hope God shields him and holds him secure.
_____________________________
-John
God is God. Get used to it.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 2/22/2008 9:55:16 AM
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TheoJunkie
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From: Death to Life
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Kelman,
SGM does not teach "apostolic succession."
They do teach that the gift of apostle is still given today, just as they teach that all Spiritual gifts have continued (not restarted, but never ceased).
I will not argue the non-cessation of spiritual gifts in here. Just know that it is not "apostolic succession." Also, it is not "Apostle" today, but "apostle". Big difference. Check the SGM website out on this, let them speak for themselves. [I edited this for clarity.]
=================
Ted,
I'm not going to get into it any more. The only way you will think I'm something more than Hitler's progeny is for me to apologize for everything SGM has done, and possibly to own it personally as my fault.
If you were hurt at SGM, I'm sorry to hear that. YOUR experience, however, is not my experience, and neither does it seem to be the majority experience at my local church. I do not attend all SGM churches, just my local church. Does that invalidate your experiece? No. It just means that I do not have to personally apologize for some alleged holocaust that I neither organized, supported, or even have witnessed.
People are indeed sinful, Ted. I'm sorry to hear that your experience was a bad one.
I will not respond to any other SGM related posts.
< Message edited by TheoJunkie -- 2/22/2008 10:06:06 AM >
_____________________________
-John
God is God. Get used to it.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 2/29/2008 10:27:27 AM
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doinkdom
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Thankfully, this month is just about over. Perhaps next month will bring better health for your family, dove.
It's such a blessing to have friends around us when we need their care.
Glad to hear you're able to rest now.
_____________________________
Religion is about me. Gospel is about Jesus -- Mark Driscoll
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 3/1/2008 12:07:18 AM
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TheoJunkie
Posts: 2378
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From: Death to Life
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Dove,
Read Job (I'm sure you have... but read it again). Stay strong. Stay strong.
_____________________________
-John
God is God. Get used to it.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 3/1/2008 4:48:39 PM
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besiderself
Posts: 710
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I've had some tough things happen in the last six months, and when I felt led to read in Job, I asked God if He was kidding...
but it really helped. Strangely.
besiderself
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 3/8/2008 7:45:40 AM
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cajunhillbilly
Posts: 181
Joined: 5/17/2005
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Reading Job puts life in perspective for me and lets me know that all suffering has a purpose in God's plan.
_____________________________
"A Stargate. You know, kind of a ring thing. Comes with a dialer. You hit some symbols. The lights come on. It spins around. And then it flushes sideways" Jack O'Neill on Stargate SG1
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 3/18/2008 8:27:34 PM
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JaredMeister
Posts: 213
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline
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Howdy,
I'm on Spring "Break" this week. (it's not much of a break...) It gives me a chance to do fun things like taxes (which I did today). And get caught up on homework. Oh yeah, and post here!
_____________________________
~ Jared
"I find your lack of faith disturbing."
-- Darth Vader
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 3/18/2008 10:15:02 PM
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lmwal931
Posts: 71
Joined: 4/16/2005
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i believe that calvinism and arminianism is trying to put GOD in a box.
you can put man in a box. i believe in total depravity.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 3/20/2008 9:00:29 PM
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TheoJunkie
Posts: 2378
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From: Death to Life
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lmwal931
i believe that calvinism and arminianism is trying to put GOD in a box.
you can put man in a box. i believe in total depravity.
Is that the only box you are in? Or do you believe in anything beyond that?
Consider these facts:
1) God is who God is. God is not other than who He is.
2) God is how God is. God is not other than how He is.
3) God does not change. God is eternally the same.
Translation: God IS IN a box. He was not put in a box... but rather, he is in a box defined by his own nature. He cannot be other than how he is. He defines his own box... and it is a huge box... but it is a box.
Therefore, it is wrong to put God in a box of your own making... but it is not wrong to describe the box that God is actually in.
Further, consider these facts:
4) The bible is inspired by God
5) The bible is the portion of God's "box" that He has chosen to reveal to us.
Therefore, if you describe God as he has revealed himself in the Bible to be... then you are not "putting God in a box", but describing him in truth.
If God has told us that he cannot lie, then it is not "boxing him in" to believe that he cannot lie.
If God says "I do it this way"... then by God (literally), that is the only way he does it. Whatever "it" is.
If God has told us that he saves by grace through faith and this not of yourselves... then by God, that is the way it is, and it is not "boxing him in" to affirm this.
< Message edited by TheoJunkie -- 3/20/2008 9:08:27 PM >
_____________________________
-John
God is God. Get used to it.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 3/21/2008 8:38:29 AM
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cajunhillbilly
Posts: 181
Joined: 5/17/2005
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Howdy Jared. How are you today? How is school?
_____________________________
"A Stargate. You know, kind of a ring thing. Comes with a dialer. You hit some symbols. The lights come on. It spins around. And then it flushes sideways" Jack O'Neill on Stargate SG1
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 3/21/2008 9:28:57 AM
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AllForIsrael
Posts: 155
Joined: 3/1/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie
quote:
ORIGINAL: lmwal931
i believe that calvinism and arminianism is trying to put GOD in a box.
you can put man in a box. i believe in total depravity.
Is that the only box you are in? Or do you believe in anything beyond that?
Consider these facts:
1) God is who God is. God is not other than who He is.
2) God is how God is. God is not other than how He is.
3) God does not change. God is eternally the same.
Translation: God IS IN a box. He was not put in a box... but rather, he is in a box defined by his own nature. He cannot be other than how he is. He defines his own box... and it is a huge box... but it is a box.
Therefore, it is wrong to put God in a box of your own making... but it is not wrong to describe the box that God is actually in.
Further, consider these facts:
4) The bible is inspired by God
5) The bible is the portion of God's "box" that He has chosen to reveal to us.
Therefore, if you describe God as he has revealed himself in the Bible to be... then you are not "putting God in a box", but describing him in truth.
If God has told us that he cannot lie, then it is not "boxing him in" to believe that he cannot lie.
If God says "I do it this way"... then by God (literally), that is the only way he does it. Whatever "it" is.
If God has told us that he saves by grace through faith and this not of yourselves... then by God, that is the way it is, and it is not "boxing him in" to affirm this.
Typical...........
_____________________________
http://forensictheology.smfnew.com
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