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Are there any Reformed Charismatics out there? - 5/19/2007 2:01:54 AM
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johnkw
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I'm a bit ignorant, so pardon me if I mischaracterize. But my impression is that most hard-core Reformed Christians do not believe that the, shall I say, sensational expressions of the Holy Spirit were meant to continue past the age of the Apostles. I'm looking for people out there who fully subscribe to Calvinistic theology (Belgic Confession, Canons of Dort, Westminster Catechisms, etc.), and who also move in (or at least believe in) what some call the sign gifts, others call miracles, others call signs and wonders. Are you out there?
For the record, I'm not a Calvinist (but the jury's still out on this one--I'm listening to a lot of James White material), I do believe in the sensational gifts (and have moved in them to some extent), but also believe that they must be operated in decently and in order. And when I say 'hard-core', I mean that with the utmost respect.
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All that is gold does not glitter.
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RE: Are there any Reformed Charismatics out there? - 5/19/2007 2:21:12 AM
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rosswell59
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John,
I'm not a Calvinist except for election in salvation and I don't believe in tongues but I have heard of some who do. I think though that tongues as we know them today came through Arminian circles. I believe this is because of their false notion that man has the capacity to work up faith within himself. Tongues are a logical result of the kind of innovations which can come from such a belief.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
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RE: Are there any Reformed Charismatics out there? - 5/19/2007 2:34:58 AM
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johnkw
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rosswell59
John,
I'm not a Calvinist except for election in salvation and I don't believe in tongues but I have heard of some who do. I think though that tongues as we know them today came through Arminian circles.
This was my understanding as well, and the source of my doubt that there are many Reformed Charismatics. I believe the rough historical progression was Wesleyan Methodism to Holiness Movements to Pentecostalism to the Charismatic Movement.
But weren't there some strange experiences in Jonathan Edwards's congregation after he preached Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God, which people attribute to the Holy Spirit? Was he reformed?
quote:
I believe this is because of their false notion that man has the capacity to work up faith within himself. Tongues are a logical result of the kind of innovations which can come from such a belief.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
It can be worked up, and I've seen a lot of people get worked up. But that's not the real thing. I've seen fake and get turned off by it, but I've also seen the real thing. (Not talking tongues necessarily, but other things like words of knowledge, laughing, crying, etc.) My belief, and that of the church I belong to (a Vineyard) is that we only do what we see our Father doing. That is, even the faith to work the sign gifts is a gift of God. And the assignment to do such works is an appointment from God (Eph. 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.")
God bless.
John
_____________________________
All that is gold does not glitter.
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RE: Are there any Reformed Charismatics out there? - 5/19/2007 12:20:57 PM
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Gloryandgrace
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Hello john:
yes, Iam one of those weird reformed believers who also believes in the continuance of the spiritual gifts 1 cor 12.
I happen to love being a reformed believer...and happen to love the giftings of God too.
John
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Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Are there any Reformed Charismatics out there? - 5/19/2007 12:36:11 PM
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Gloryandgrace
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Its true that lots of religious expressions can be mimiced by the flesh.
But those mimicings are no argument against the existence of the real thing. They are an argument for using discerning and wisdom.
As an evangelist, I am always praying that God heal and deliver the sinner at my meetings. I pray that Christians learn to receive the healing and deliverance God will give. I believe God uses us at times to manifest His power by ministering in supernatural ways to others.
It doesnt matter if they are sinners or saints, God heals both and displays His power to both.
The Sovereign God Jesus Christ told us to ask, seek, knock. He told us to persevere in prayer, to believe and receive, to remove unbelief, not make unbelief a foundation upon which to build peculiar doctrines and then to shore up that unbelief with scripture to prove our unbelief is biblical.
God manifests himself in power, but I can attest, those who do not ask to do not receive.
Those who do not believe do not receive of God. Our stock and trade as believers is faith. We place our faith in God alone. It is Christ that connects us to the will and desire for Him to show great and mighty works.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Are there any Reformed Charismatics out there? - 5/19/2007 12:50:05 PM
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Gloryandgrace
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One more thing. Instead of seeking God for the operation of his Spirit in power from the defensive posture that certain men want to place us into, let us approach the throne of grace with confidence and knowledge that we are accepted in the beloved. We are given every spiritual blessing in heavenly places, and now God manifests them in earthly, carnal, sinful places. What we have received of God is to be shown in the darkness.
We know we are now children of the light, that light exposes evil and shows the evil of men and devils in thier works through out the world. I say take the offensive. We have the armor of God, let us wear it and resist the darkness that seeks to grind every human being underfoot. We do not have to compromise one iota of solid biblical doctrine in order to seek God and believe Him to use us and manifest His power through us to edify the body and to bring sinners to Christ. Wear the armor of light against the unbelief of men whom have relegated Gods power to priviledged apostles when those same apostles taught the believers how to handle the manifestations of Gods power.
We may not have the first apostles in the flesh but we have their words and their teachings as inspired scripture. We are being taught by the apostles, they teach us to covet the best gifts and show us the better way of using love to demonstrate the power of God toward one another in the use of those gifts.
I say, lets let the apostles teach us, just as the early church had done and we shall find ourselves imitating the early church demonstrations of power and effectiveness as well.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Are there any Reformed Charismatics out there? - 5/19/2007 2:27:20 PM
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roboteer
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I think I kind of know what the term means, but how have we got into the situation where we describe some of us as 'Reformed Charismatics'. If we really think of it, is it useful to have term such as that. We should really, really try to remove such terms and call ourselves all 'Christians'.
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RE: Are there any Reformed Charismatics out there? - 5/19/2007 2:53:33 PM
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rosswell59
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John(gloryandgrace),
While your postion is quite reasonable and compelling, I would just make one point for your consideration. I believe one of the fallacies of reformed theology is that it fails to take into account what I call "the ruin of the church in responsible testimony." I believe scripture makes it clear that the early church complete with signs and wonders fell into failure very early on in church history. This failure corresponds to the destruction of Solomon's temple which was center of the testimony entrusted to the responsibility of Israel. Just as Haggai found himself in a "day of small things" having a rebuilt temple which was still in subjection to Gentile rule and of which the old men wept when they saw the lack of glory compared to the original temple we too can only establish the basic structure of worship today minus all the glory and majesty which once accompanied the church in scripture. I believe we still have the better gifts at our disposal so nothing is lost in not having the sign gifts as far as our needs are concerned. Since there is no real testimony to the world that they can point at and say "that is the church of Jesus Christ" it is of no real use to have the signs which were intended to verify the reality of the church.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
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RE: Are there any Reformed Charismatics out there? - 5/19/2007 3:02:12 PM
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johnkw
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace
I say, lets let the apostles teach us, just as the early church had done and we shall find ourselves imitating the early church demonstrations of power and effectiveness as well.
John
Amen!
_____________________________
All that is gold does not glitter.
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RE: Are there any Reformed Charismatics out there? - 5/19/2007 3:03:58 PM
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johnkw
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quote:
ORIGINAL: roboteer
I think I kind of know what the term means, but how have we got into the situation where we describe some of us as 'Reformed Charismatics'. If we really think of it, is it useful to have term such as that. We should really, really try to remove such terms and call ourselves all 'Christians'.
I agree with the spirit of what you say, and try to avoid labels, since I don't like 'isms'. However, sometimes they're convenient, especially when you don't have a lot of time to post.
_____________________________
All that is gold does not glitter.
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RE: Are there any Reformed Charismatics out there? - 5/19/2007 3:09:51 PM
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rosswell59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: johnkw
quote:
ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace
I say, lets let the apostles teach us, just as the early church had done and we shall find ourselves imitating the early church demonstrations of power and effectiveness as well.
John
Amen!
Yes, and the apostle Paul teaches us that there are "better gifts" as well as that the church fell into a poor state very early on. He also introduces the need to act in a remnant character like we see in the latter temple of Israel. In the letter to the church at Philadelphia which compared to the others is clearly a remnant, we read "you have a LITTLE strength." I believe we have the strength available to us to maintain the character of the early church but not her glory.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
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RE: Are there any Reformed Charismatics out there? - 5/19/2007 3:16:26 PM
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Gloryandgrace
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Hi Ross:
Thanks for the kindly put post to me. I see you disagree but your speaking is full of grace.
I would simply say that God didnt give the gifts to verify the Church. God sent the indwelling Spirit to conform men into the image and pattern of Christ, that image and pattern testifies to the visible Work of God in the world. As a part of our imitation of Christ the manifestations of God's Spirit accompany the good works we were created to do. I dont seek to magnify the gifts in any way, my teaching and my calling is to magnify Christ and proclaim that glorious gospel.
The temple built by Herod did have a greater glory in it than all the other combined, It had God manifest in the Flesh and teaching daily in it. What it lacked in outward glory it obtained by God's purposes to enter into it clothed in flesh and blood. But I say this not to counter your meaning, Im only saying that these vessels of clay perish but the inward glory of God is to be revealed.
The gifts of the Spirit are the revealing of Christ in a form that is not human but supernatural.
The Kingdom we have entered and which we are now apart of is a kingdom of power, it is a kingdom that is raised up beyond human effort can offer in its stead. Therefore as a preacher of the gospel I intend to take the apostles teachings where they have instructed me on handling, seeking and operating under the power and prompting of the Spirit so that I may fully imitate the Lord Jesus Christ.
Charismatic/pentacostal/new vision/ prophetic anointing...and whatever labels that are attached
I only use them as a point of reference for someone else to understand a basic fact about myself.
I do not call myself a reformed/charismatic I call myself a Christian and I will fellowship with any Christian gifts or no gifts. I do not divorce the imitation and Character of Christ from the Spiritual gifts that should accompany the believer in all God has called Him/her to do.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Are there any Reformed Charismatics out there? - 5/19/2007 3:25:34 PM
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Gloryandgrace
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quote:
Yes, and the apostle Paul teaches us that there are "better gifts" as well as that the church fell into a poor state very early on. He also introduces the need to act in a remnant character like we see in the latter temple of Israel. In the letter to the church at Philadelphia which compared to the others is clearly a remnant, we read "you have a LITTLE strength." I believe we have the strength available to us to maintain the character of the early church but not her glory.
Yours in Christ,
Ross:
We are in agreement here, I believe we should act according to the Spirit that indwells us.
As to the glory of the Church, that is something God is able to supply according to his power.
I will not limit that power by assuming the early Church was the summit of Gods expression through His people.
I pray, according to the divine promise that God intends for the Church to be without spot or wrinkle that the elect would reveal Christ like that in their lives.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Are there any Reformed Charismatics out there? - 5/19/2007 4:11:39 PM
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manwe
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Check out Every Nation International they are thoroughly reformed and also charismatic. It might be a helpful resource for you. Another poster here on CW - RJR_Fan is associated with the movement.
Hope it helps.
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RE: Are there any Reformed Charismatics out there? - 5/19/2007 5:01:14 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rosswell59
Yes, and the apostle Paul teaches us that there are "better gifts" as well as that the church fell into a poor state very early on. He also introduces the need to act in a remnant character like we see in the latter temple of Israel. In the letter to the church at Philadelphia which compared to the others is clearly a remnant, we read "you have a LITTLE strength." I believe we have the strength available to us to maintain the character of the early church but not her glory.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
And which of the gifts would you consider "Better"?
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: Are there any Reformed Charismatics out there? - 5/19/2007 5:06:59 PM
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rosswell59
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The gifts which edify such a prophesy and teaching.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
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RE: Are there any Reformed Charismatics out there? - 5/19/2007 10:23:59 PM
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HisbyHischoice
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I am a reformed Christian who does not limit God and say (biblical)tongues cannot possibly exist today, however I have never spoke in tongues. I have heard John Piper say on a sermon that he also believes (biblical) tongues could possibly exist today. And he is reformed. But neither of us would be labled charismatic.
Do you have to speak in tongues to be charismatic? Just curious.
BTW, I don't like the labels either, but I agree with john kw, labels help when you don't have allot of time.
quote:
ORIGINAL: johnkw
I'm a bit ignorant, so pardon me if I mischaracterize. But my impression is that most hard-core Reformed Christians do not believe that the, shall I say, sensational expressions of the Holy Spirit were meant to continue past the age of the Apostles. I'm looking for people out there who fully subscribe to Calvinistic theology (Belgic Confession, Canons of Dort, Westminster Catechisms, etc.), and who also move in (or at least believe in) what some call the sign gifts, others call miracles, others call signs and wonders. Are you out there?
For the record, I'm not a Calvinist (but the jury's still out on this one--I'm listening to a lot of James White material), I do believe in the sensational gifts (and have moved in them to some extent), but also believe that they must be operated in decently and in order. And when I say 'hard-core', I mean that with the utmost respect.
_____________________________
"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you." ---John 15:16
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RE: Are there any Reformed Charismatics out there? - 5/19/2007 10:25:29 PM
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colliefan
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I am a member of a church that is part of the Anglican Mission in America so, in that sense, I guess I would be considered reformed. I also believe that healing and tongues exisit today, but I also believe that there is far too much experiemce-driven worship in the charismatic movement (slain-in-the-spirit, holy laughter, holy barking, etc.)
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RE: Are there any Reformed Charismatics out there? - 5/20/2007 7:43:05 PM
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johnkw
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace
quote:
Yes, and the apostle Paul teaches us that there are "better gifts" as well as that the church fell into a poor state very early on. He also introduces the need to act in a remnant character like we see in the latter temple of Israel. In the letter to the church at Philadelphia which compared to the others is clearly a remnant, we read "you have a LITTLE strength." I believe we have the strength available to us to maintain the character of the early church but not her glory.
Yours in Christ,
Ross:
We are in agreement here, I believe we should act according to the Spirit that indwells us.
As to the glory of the Church, that is something God is able to supply according to his power.
I will not limit that power by assuming the early Church was the summit of Gods expression through His people.
I pray, according to the divine promise that God intends for the Church to be without spot or wrinkle that the elect would reveal Christ like that in their lives.
John
I would say that I pretty much agree with both of you, regarding the state of the church in the world throughout history. (How's that for talking out of both sides of my mouth? I should run for office!  ) What I mean is that both of the following are true: We are a city set on a hill and our light is meant to shine. On the other hand, in the words of Paul: "all Asia has forsaken me", and "after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you". Only 2 of the 7 prophetic churches in the book of Revelation had completely (or almost completely) positive things said about them. But what an impact this remnant had. In other words, the outward glory and the outward "shame" of the church are both going to be evident in God's true people. Only few will "find it", but this few is salt and light, and responsible (well really, God is responsible really, through Christ and the Holy Spirit) for the blessings this world has experienced in the past 2000 years.
But we're digressing from my original query, which was to find died in the wool, Turretins, Calvins, Knoxes, who also recognize the continuing power and applicability of the sensational gifts. (I recognize that all bible-believers believe in the continuation of gifts of the Holy Spirit.)
I'm not very familiar with Brethren. Maybe someone else could start a "Charismatic Brethren" thread...
< Message edited by johnkw -- 5/20/2007 7:53:24 PM >
_____________________________
All that is gold does not glitter.
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RE: Are there any Reformed Charismatics out there? - 5/20/2007 7:45:47 PM
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johnkw
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace
Hello john:
yes, Iam one of those weird reformed believers who also believes in the continuance of the spiritual gifts 1 cor 12.
I happen to love being a reformed believer...and happen to love the giftings of God too.
John
John,
Great! doesn't seem weird to me. Just uncommon. As far as I can tell, Reformed folks are very diligent at sticking with Scripture, so it should be natural for such to move in these gifts.
-John
_____________________________
All that is gold does not glitter.
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RE: Are there any Reformed Charismatics out there? - 5/20/2007 7:53:39 PM
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johnkw
Posts: 393
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manwe
Check out Every Nation International they are thoroughly reformed and also charismatic. It might be a helpful resource for you. Another poster here on CW - RJR_Fan is associated with the movement.
Hope it helps.
Thanks, manwe.
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RE: Are there any Reformed Charismatics out there? - 5/20/2007 7:55:31 PM
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johnkw
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manwe
remember, this is not the spiritual gifts thread, it is about if there are any reformed charimatics.
Yes. I'm just looking for info. If it leads to a friendly discussion on the compatibility (or non-) between "Reformed" and "Charismatic", that's fine.
_____________________________
All that is gold does not glitter.
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RE: Are there any Reformed Charismatics out there? - 5/20/2007 8:00:04 PM
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johnkw
Posts: 393
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisbyHischoice
I am a reformed Christian who does not limit God and say (biblical)tongues cannot possibly exist today, however I have never spoke in tongues. I have heard John Piper say on a sermon that he also believes (biblical) tongues could possibly exist today. And he is reformed. But neither of us would be labled charismatic.
Do you have to speak in tongues to be charismatic? Just curious.
Thanks, HBHC. No, I'm pretty sure it's not a "requirement". But it is one of the gifts that Charismatics believe in and expect that some will operate in.
_____________________________
All that is gold does not glitter.
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RE: Are there any Reformed Charismatics out there? - 5/21/2007 6:45:37 AM
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SureHope
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rosswell59
John,
I'm not a Calvinist except for election in salvation and I don't believe in tongues but I have heard of some who do. I think though that tongues as we know them today came through Arminian circles. I believe this is because of their false notion that man has the capacity to work up faith within himself. Tongues are a logical result of the kind of innovations which can come from such a belief.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
Interesting thought.
Another link between those who believe in a subsequent to salvation baptism in the Holy Spirit and Arminianism may be found in church history.
Many Methodists of the 19th Century were seeking the "second blessing" of perfection (derived from teaching of John Wesley who popularized Arminianism). This teaching was later mixed with the idea of returning to the experience of the Apostolic Church and the baptism in the Holy Spirit. Some actually believed that there were two subsequent experiences after salvation - the second blessing of perfection and the baptism in the Holy Spirit. There is much to be said for the idea that the Pentecostal movement in the United States at the turn of the Century came out of this Wesleyan motivated thinking. Thus Pentecostal denominations and most Charismatic churches adhere to Arminian theology.
I personally agree with the likes of John Piper and Wayne Grudem, who both see the possibility of the gifts of the Spirit in operation today. Also, from the 20th Century, David Martyn Lloyd-Jones, the great preacher of Westminster Chapel, experienced a subsequent to salvation baptism in the Holy Spirit.
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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