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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 1:32:32 PM
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todd_t
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quote:
That depends on whether those denying him tenure considered ID religious or not.
Well, considering ID implies a supernatural element it is indeed religious by nature.
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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 1:36:04 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Well, considering ID implies a supernatural element is is indeed religious by nature.
That would be another discussion.
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Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 1:37:24 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Which ISU, Jack? (e.g. Illinois State, Iowa State, etc).
For the record, I went to Illinois State
I don't recall any religious/speech-related controversies while I was there.
If anything, the only campus issue that irritated me during my studies was a boneheaded, PC-driven effort to revise the school motto (which was adapted from Chaucer) to be gender-neutral.
Iowa State, or the jewel of the midwest, as we like to think of it.
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Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 1:51:27 PM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
The astronomer was not denied tenure on religious grounds. Therefore that example does not fall under persecution of Christians.
That depends on whther those denying him tenure considered ID religious or not.
What do you suppose?
He is not claiming religious discrimination. Therefore he is not being persecuted as a Christian. One of the ID problems is that proponents want it both ways. It's science when that's convenient, but it's religious when that's convenient.
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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 1:56:39 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
He is not claiming religious discrimination. Therefore he is not being persecuted as a Christian. One of the ID problems is that proponents want it both ways. It's science when that's convenient, but it's religious when that's convenient.
Well, no. If someone discriminates against me presuming me to be a Jew when I am not, it doesn't make me any less discriminated against, and it doesn't releive the perpetrator of being an anti-semite.
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Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 1:58:05 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
I recall our schools met up in the first round of the men's NCAAs in 1997; the Cyclones whomped the Redbirds but good
Occasionally we do well on the field or court, but I am only happy when we defeat the Hawkeyes, our arch nemesis. (nemesi?)
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Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 2:10:36 PM
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brotherbrian
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quote:
ORIGINAL: EverLearning
quote:
ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3
If the incidents sighted are examples of persecution, then what would you call what Christians go through in other counttries where they have to meet in secret, where they are jailed and tortured until they either die or renounce their faith?
Someday Christians may very well be persecuted in our country, but we are miles away from that at the present time. These are inconveniences designed to test us.
We americans sure do like to complain when the cover of our cushy little pillow gets wrinkled and ignore those in other parts of the world are beaten, ridiculed, jailed, or killed for their faith. The fact that someone won't let me pray at work or at school is not persecution in my book, I can still worship as i see fit and go to church openly without fear of anyone acting out against me. We Americans want our faith to be easy, we want to be accepted everywhere. I guess we want to be better than our Lord and Saviour who was beaten, spat upon, and crucified. We want to ignore the fact that he told us we would be hated just as he was hated. We want to cry because we can't pray out loud in our cubicles at work or at our graduations, never mind the fact that noone seeks to crucify us and ask us to denounce our religion. Never mind that we are free to practice our religion, outside of work and school, however we see fit as long as it doesn't injure others. Never mind that we live cushy feel good lives and most of us would faint cold just to see what Christians in other parts of the world are subjected to.
NO ONE is comparing the issue at hand with martyrdom.
However, to deny that the activities you mentioned are currently under sanction in American schools and workplaces is rediculous--we ARE losing freedoms we previously enjoyed, and that is a first step we have no business accepting while lying down.
What freedoms would you personally have to lose in order to give a rat's rump about the issue?
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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 2:15:56 PM
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brotherbrian
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quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
Riddle me this: how can a majority be persecuted?
By the tyranny of the minority--it's how Roe v Wade became the law of the land.
Most people who have no problem with being denied previous rights to exercise their faith publicly (I've found) weren't the kind of folks who ever bothered to exercise those freedoms in the first place.
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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 2:18:20 PM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
He is not claiming religious discrimination. Therefore he is not being persecuted as a Christian. One of the ID problems is that proponents want it both ways. It's science when that's convenient, but it's religious when that's convenient.
Well, no. If someone discriminates against me presuming me to be a Jew when I am not, it doesn't make me any less discriminated against, and it doesn't releive the perpetrator of being an anti-semite.
Then why not claim religious discrimination, which is illegal? Or could it be that the real bias is ethnic?
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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 2:21:53 PM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: brotherbrian
quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
Riddle me this: how can a majority be persecuted?
By the tyranny of the minority--it's how Roe v Wade became the law of the land.
Most people who have no problem with being denied previous rights to exercise their faith publicly (I've found) weren't the kind of folks who ever bothered to exercise those freedoms in the first place.
I often attend church in broad daylight, in full view of the authorities, as do hundreds of others attending the same services. We are sometimes forced to attend under cover of darkness ........... during the winter on Sunday and Wednesday evenings.
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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 2:29:35 PM
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brotherbrian
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There's a fine line between being allowed to wear a cross around your neck and being forced by the state to wear one around your neck for identification purposes.
Just ask some eighty year old European Jews.
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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 2:33:43 PM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: brotherbrian
we ARE losing freedoms we previously enjoyed, and that is a first step we have no business accepting while lying down.
What freedoms would you personally have to lose in order to give a rat's rump about the issue?
Protestants and, to a lesser degree, Catholics enjoyed the privileges of having our sectarian prayers and other outward signs of belief be favored by public institutions. I attended public schools where Protestant-themed chapel services were held weekly, where mandatory Bible class was taught (not as history but as Sunday School). There were also morning prayers and devotionals.
That was nice for me, being a Protestant and all, but it was not in keeping with the intent of the founding fathers (many being deists) that the government endorse one religion. Now, we Christians have to play on a level field, culturally. So my kids went to private schools so that they could have the religious themed education I got in the public schools. Government is a secular enterprise and the US is a republic, not a theocracy. We should stop whining and deal with it, IMO.
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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 2:34:52 PM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: brotherbrian
There's a fine line between being allowed to wear a cross around your neck and being forced by the state to wear one around your neck for identification purposes.
Just ask some eighty year old European Jews.
LOL, that is a line a mile wide.
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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 2:43:12 PM
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TheosCentric
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow257
quote:
ORIGINAL: brotherbrian
There's a fine line between being allowed to wear a cross around your neck and being forced by the state to wear one around your neck for identification purposes.
Just ask some eighty year old European Jews.
LOL, that is a line a mile wide.
I didn't think Jews would wear crosses around their necks anyway. 
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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 2:50:28 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Then why not claim religious discrimination, which is illegal? Or could it be that the real bias is ethnic?
I am not sure how such a lawsuit would precede; could I claim religious discrimination as a Jew, when in fact I am not one?
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 3:26:45 PM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Then why not claim religious discrimination, which is illegal? Or could it be that the real bias is ethnic?
I am not sure how such a lawsuit would precede; could I claim religious discrimination as a Jew, when in fact I am not one?
OK, I'm confused. Are you saying that Gonzales is being persecuted? That's what I gathered from your post. The EEOC covers employment, which would be the case for legal redress here. I have no doubt Gonzales could get help from any number of sources if he wanted to pursue that route.
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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 3:37:29 PM
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CleverName
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quote:
As Christianity is the most powerful and widespread faith in America,
Christianity is certainly not the most widespread faith in America. Even if we are a majority, it is entirely possible for a majority to be persecuted.
Well, here we go. The ADF website I linked earlier is replete with such cases. Moreover, no matter how many Chinese are rotting in prison for their faith, these cases are most certainly persecution, albeit of a lighter kind.
quote:
ORIGINAL: joeshappywife
I agree that persecution in the US rarely, if ever, is life threatening. However, to say that those who have had to endure it to whatever degree are whiners is being a bit condesending. To say that because the courts have made redress is to negate the initial acts of harassment, and that is not fair. Having to even go to the courts should not take place. My family, three generations ago, came to this country for various reasons, and I have chosen to stay here for some of the same and some different ones. Freedom to live out my faith without harassment is a main one.
I will share a very personal example for all of you needing one.
My husband is a public high school teacher and has had to use his personal time and his own, and others, resources, to defend his job because he chose to sponsor the on-campus Bible Study. Now, he never led the group, it was completely student led, he simply allowed them to meet in his room, and he was the teacher present at meetings which was required for all on-campus clubs.
I will fully agree that his life was never threatened, but his livlihood was. I will agree also that in the end, his job ended up safe, but it doesn't negate the fact that he had to fight the fight in the first place. It was time and resources that could have been better used.
Again, maybe this was only harassment, but it was still because of his faith and the way he chose to live it out...completely within the rules that had been set out.
Thanks for letting me share our experience. It's only one example, but I feel strongly that it should have never happened in the first place.
< Message edited by CleverName -- 5/30/2007 3:46:15 PM >
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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 3:53:34 PM
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CleverName
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quote:
The HUGE difference is that outside of government funded institutions and some work places you are FREE to worship as you please with very little fear that anyone will come and kill you for it.
And? None of that means that Christians aren't being persecuted. Are you afraid you will be less sensitive to the greater sufferings of Third-World Christians if you admit that the stuff that goes on here is also persecution? Why?
quote:
Having to pray siliently at work or at a school event is not persecution.
Sometimes it is. If students are forbidden to hold "See you at the pole" prayer events, which I believe has happened in the past, that is persecution. If students are barred from holding Bible studies on school grounds (on the same terms as other clubs), that is persecution. I believe ACLJ has handled a number of those cases. If an employer won't make a "reasonable accommodation" for his employees' religious beliefs, that could also be persecution. All of these things are currently illegal, but they still seem to be happening.
quote:
No one is hounding you to denounce your religion,
Can anyone name the atheist writer who has recently said that religion should no longer be tolerated? I think it was either Dawkins or Sam Harris.
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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 3:56:38 PM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CleverName
Well, here we go. The ADF website I linked earlier is replete with such cases. Moreover, no matter how many Chinese are rotting in prison for their faith, these cases are most certainly persecution, albeit of a lighter kind.
In a society where free speech is a value, there will be disagreements. These are not persecution. Most of the articles were the give-and-take of the culture wars. In true persecution, , for example, the students in Washington state would have been rounded up and jailed or beaten or kicked out of school altogether (they were suspended for failing to comply with an order from the administration to move to another area. The students were praying in a public area and officials believed they were obstructing traffic). The school has the right to require groups meet in designated areas. The chess club cannot decide to hold a meeting in a hallway, for example, if it causes a disruption.
They will prevail legally (as far as being able to have student-led prayer)because the case law is pretty clear. The ACLJ has had many similar cases. One of the reasons these incidents happen is the "you can't have religion at school" myhtology perpetrated by Christians. So you see isolated cases where principals and administrators show their ignorance of the law.
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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 4:07:15 PM
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SonInMe1
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I am not sure the controlled enviroments of our higher learning centers qualifies as the world, or our country at large. These places are usually the cornerstones of liberal thought....not exactly an open minded phillosophy or one that favors a christian influence.
It would be like Martin Luther King walking into a Klan's meeting and declaring he was descriminated against there.
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You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 4:18:13 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
It would be like Martin Luther King walking into a Klan's meeting and declaring he was descriminated against there.
Ah, but there is the rub; is it right that Americans are forced to subsidize Klan meetings?
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Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 4:24:48 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7413
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quote:
OK, I'm confused. Are you saying that Gonzales is being persecuted? That's what I gathered from your post. The EEOC covers employment, which would be the case for legal redress here. I have no doubt Gonzales could get help from any number of sources if he wanted to pursue that route.
I am saying that if Gonzalez' employers consider his ideas about ID to be 'religious' (which they do) and they have discriminated against him because of those beliefs (which they appear to have done) then they are being religiously discriminatory, whether or not ID is indeed religious, or Gonzalez considers ID to be a religious idea.
Now whether discrimination amounts to persecution is another question - personally I think it does.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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No. These things happen for two reasons.