Persecution in America? (Full Version)

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CleverName -> Persecution in America? (5/29/2007 2:02:39 PM)

I am looking for a web site, or other source, where I can find factual, documented information on persecution against Christians in the U.S. or in Canada. I hear a lot of word-of-mouth about kids in public school being told not to read their Bible on their free time, or Christians being fired because of their beliefs or lifestyle. I would hope someone has an internet clearing house that documents such cases, referencing media sources and perhaps court documents.

I understand that some will object to "persecution" being used for anything other than physical violence, incarceration, and other forms of persecution common in some parts of the world. If such people could suggest an alternative term, I'd be glad to consider using that word instead.


Here is one I found by googling Christian AND persecution AND America.



brotherbrian -> RE: Persecution in America? (5/29/2007 2:29:41 PM)

Google for Christian law firms working pro-bono.
One is called the Christian Defence Fund, I believe.

Also google "Christian Workplace Problems", and Christianity in Public Schools.

Don't bother to check network news--they avoid stuff like this like the plague.



cow451 -> RE: Persecution in America? (5/29/2007 2:46:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: brotherbrian

Google for Christian law firms working pro-bono.
One is called the Christian Defence Fund, I believe.

Also google "Christian Workplace Problems", and Christianity in Public Schools.

Don't bother to check network news--they avoid stuff like this like the plague.

That's because it is such a rare occurrence, if at all.



CleverName -> RE: Persecution in America? (5/29/2007 3:27:58 PM)

quote:

That's because it is such a rare occurrence, if at all.

And that would make it more news-worthy. Man bites dog and all of that.


quote:

One is called the Christian Defence Fund, I believe.

You mean the Alliance Defense Fund? Thanks, I had forgotten about them. They have some good stuff here. ACLJ has a similar page, but most of the cases are not the sort I was looking for.

Thanks a lot, brian. There seem to be a number of cases confirmed on the ADF site (with names, places and copies of court documents), although I haven't been able to dig into it yet. Me thinks the cow may be mistaken, depending on the definition of "rare."



cow451 -> RE: Persecution in America? (5/29/2007 4:09:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CleverName

quote:

That's because it is such a rare occurrence, if at all.

And that would make it more news-worthy. Man bites dog and all of that.


quote:

One is called the Christian Defence Fund, I believe.

You mean the Alliance Defense Fund? Thanks, I had forgotten about them. They have some good stuff here. ACLJ has a similar page, but most of the cases are not the sort I was looking for.

Thanks a lot, brian. There seem to be a number of cases confirmed on the ADF site (with names, places and copies of court documents), although I haven't been able to dig into it yet. Me thinks the cow may be mistaken, depending on the definition of "rare."

These cases do not rise to the level of "persecution" in my book. They were all handled through due process and rights were protected and affirmed. Some looked more like zoning squabbles and local political battles.



brotherbrian -> RE: Persecution in America? (5/29/2007 4:20:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cow257

quote:

ORIGINAL: brotherbrian

Google for Christian law firms working pro-bono.
One is called the Christian Defence Fund, I believe.

Also google "Christian Workplace Problems", and Christianity in Public Schools.

Don't bother to check network news--they avoid stuff like this like the plague.

That's because it is such a rare occurrence, if at all.



You're misinformed.

The ACLU has helped with many of these cases as well--believe it or not.



CleverName -> RE: Persecution in America? (5/29/2007 4:59:04 PM)

From freedictionary.com - Persecute:
1. To oppress or harass with ill-treatment, especially because of race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, or beliefs.
2. To annoy persistently; bother.


To admit that at least some of the cases on the ADF page are persecution does not detract from the much greater suffering of Christians being beaten, tortured, imprisoned or killed.



cow451 -> RE: Persecution in America? (5/29/2007 5:32:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: brotherbrian

quote:

ORIGINAL: cow257

quote:

ORIGINAL: brotherbrian

Google for Christian law firms working pro-bono.
One is called the Christian Defence Fund, I believe.

Also google "Christian Workplace Problems", and Christianity in Public Schools.

Don't bother to check network news--they avoid stuff like this like the plague.

That's because it is such a rare occurrence, if at all.



You're misinformed.

The ACLU has helped with many of these cases as well--believe it or not.

I know the ACLU has worked on all sides with freedom of speech and expression. I'm still waiting for a case in America where someone is denied housing, employment or has been imprisoned or prevented from attending worship services where the courts have not given redress.



cow451 -> RE: Persecution in America? (5/29/2007 5:36:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CleverName

From freedictionary.com - Persecute:
1. To oppress or harass with ill-treatment, especially because of race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, or beliefs.
2. To annoy persistently; bother.


To admit that at least some of the cases on the ADF page are persecution does not detract from the much greater suffering of Christians being beaten, tortured, imprisoned or killed.


I do not find "persistent annoying" to be persecution in the sense the OP intended. If that's the case we'd have to lock up every nine-year-old in the country. So where are the instances of Christians being tortured, beaten, imprisoned or killed. What some Christians have become are whiners and complainers.



brotherbrian -> RE: Persecution in America? (5/29/2007 5:41:05 PM)

Ah! Let's wait 'til some of us are beaten and imprisoned before we seek redress.
Gotcha, Cow.



cow451 -> RE: Persecution in America? (5/29/2007 5:44:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: brotherbrian

Ah! Let's wait 'til some of us are beaten and imprisoned before we seek redress.
Gotcha, Cow.


So, what do you want? Sue somebody that hasn't done anything to you?

"Your Honor, the defendant was making faces and persistently annoying my client."[sm=crystreams.gif]



brotherbrian -> RE: Persecution in America? (5/29/2007 6:14:33 PM)

Instead of going off half cocked, why don't you do some investigating and find out what's happening to Christians in schools and workplaces pretty frequently?

What do you think--we're making this stuff up?

Attempting to prevent people from exercising the right to free speech and enjoying a hassle-free workplace based soley upon religious reasons is a bit more ominous than "making faces" at them.



cow451 -> RE: Persecution in America? (5/29/2007 6:21:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: brotherbrian

Instead of going off half cocked, why don't you do some investigating and find out what's happening to Christians in schools and workplaces pretty frequently?

What do you think--we're making this stuff up?

Attempting to prevent people from exercising the right to free speech and enjoying a hassle-free workplace based soley upon religious reasons is a bit more ominous than "making faces" at them.

I work, have kids in school and get around a bit. Since you think I live in a bubble, how about you--having made the claim-- back it up with some links to actual events.



brotherbrian -> RE: Persecution in America? (5/29/2007 6:39:57 PM)

Everyone's busy cow.
Honestly--it's like you have your mind made up and don't want to look up the stats because it might cause you to alter your opinions.
Also, YOU were the one who said it happens "rarely, if ever". You said it--feel free to back it up.
Lastly, I wasn't the OP.



EverLearning -> RE: Persecution in America? (5/29/2007 6:43:08 PM)

I am going see a psychiatrist tomorrow since i agree with Cow yet again. [;)]

I see part of the problem here being the culture of victimhood we foster here in America. Some people want to cry persecution or discrimination anytime someone looks at them wrong. Some body telling jokes about Christians in the workplace isn't persecution, it is juvenile misbehavior. Jesus never whined when he was persecuted, that was real persecution, but so many Christians cry persecution because some governmental body doesn't sanction their prayers or their coworkers make fun of them. Well for myself the opinions and actions of others doesn't affect my faith one bit. Now when a Christian shows where he couldn't get a job or a home or car because of his faith then i will stand up with them. People of all persuasions are picked on or shunned in the work place and the real world, it is all part of this fallen world.



cow451 -> RE: Persecution in America? (5/29/2007 6:45:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: brotherbrian

Everyone's busy cow.
Honestly--it's like you have your mind made up and don't want to look up the stats because it might cause you to alter your opinions.
Also, YOU were the one who said it happens "rarely, if ever". You said it--feel free to back it up.
Lastly, I wasn't the OP.

Stats? What stats. I'm busy, too, dude. But I've had this discussion before so I have looked around. Take your time, no rush.



cow451 -> RE: Persecution in America? (5/29/2007 6:47:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EverLearning

I am going see a psychiatrist tomorrow since i agree with Cow yet again. [;)]



It'll pass. It's probably the stress you're under.



brotherbrian -> RE: Persecution in America? (5/29/2007 7:00:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EverLearning

I am going see a psychiatrist tomorrow since i agree with Cow yet again. [;)]

I see part of the problem here being the culture of victimhood we foster here in America. Some people want to cry persecution or discrimination anytime someone looks at them wrong. Some body telling jokes about Christians in the workplace isn't persecution, it is juvenile misbehavior. Jesus never whined when he was persecuted, that was real persecution, but so many Christians cry persecution because some governmental body doesn't sanction their prayers or their coworkers make fun of them. Well for myself the opinions and actions of others doesn't affect my faith one bit. Now when a Christian shows where he couldn't get a job or a home or car because of his faith then i will stand up with them. People of all persuasions are picked on or shunned in the work place and the real world, it is all part of this fallen world.



Investigate the allegations made, and see for yourself--it's not anti-Christian jokes or the workplace equivalent of short-sheeting someone's bunk at summer camp.



brotherbrian -> RE: Persecution in America? (5/29/2007 7:01:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cow257

quote:

ORIGINAL: brotherbrian

Everyone's busy cow.
Honestly--it's like you have your mind made up and don't want to look up the stats because it might cause you to alter your opinions.
Also, YOU were the one who said it happens "rarely, if ever". You said it--feel free to back it up.
Lastly, I wasn't the OP.

Stats? What stats. I'm busy, too, dude. But I've had this discussion before so I have looked around. Take your time, no rush.



Nice do-si-do, cowdude.
You take YOUR time, brother.
:)



Evangel70 -> RE: Persecution in America? (5/29/2007 7:08:25 PM)

As others have suggested, your best bet would be a site like the Rutherford Institute or <gasp> the ACLU. Unlike countries like China, Iran, Iraq or the former Soviet Union, there has never been any real "Christian" persecution in America (i.e. Where Christians have been prohibited from meeting together, owning a bible, unable to obtain housing or employment because of their faith, etc.) Thank God for the wisdom of our constitutional writters.

[8D]



rcjames -> RE: Persecution in America? (5/29/2007 7:08:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CleverName

I am looking for a web site, or other source, where I can find factual, documented information on persecution against Christians in the U.S. or in Canada.


Try HERE for a start and google "Christian Rights Groups".

Thanks
RC


edited for spelling



cow451 -> RE: Persecution in America? (5/29/2007 7:27:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: CleverName

I am looking for a web site, or other source, where I can find factual, documented information on persecution against Christians in the U.S. or in Canada.


Try HERE fpr a start and google "Christina Rights Groups".

Thanks
RC


Great site. It shows the American system at work to protect the rights of Christians to live, work and worship. It also dispells many of the "persecution" myths that abound in the Churches. Case after case has been upheld. Thanks, RC.



CleverName -> RE: Persecution in America? (5/29/2007 7:52:42 PM)

quote:

I'm still waiting for a case in America where someone is denied housing, employment or has been imprisoned or prevented from attending worship services where the courts have not given redress.


Redress is not at issue. Persecution is persecution regardless of legal action. In fact, not all persecution is illegal, or at least in some cases it should not be. If a child is told by teachers that he should not read the Bible during his lunch break at a public school, that would be persecution, regardless of what the law said, or whether the teacher was dealt with. Or even if he is regularly teased by his classmates because of it, that would be persecution. Legal free speech, yes, but persecution nonetheless.

Whining? Yes, Christians and conservatives do too much whining about some things. But persecution is persecution regardless of who whines about it.



phosadaud -> RE: Persecution in America? (5/29/2007 9:06:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EverLearning
I see part of the problem here being the culture of victimhood we foster here in America. Some people want to cry persecution or discrimination anytime someone looks at them wrong. Some body telling jokes about Christians in the workplace isn't persecution, it is juvenile misbehavior. Jesus never whined when he was persecuted, that was real persecution, but so many Christians cry persecution because some governmental body doesn't sanction their prayers or their coworkers make fun of them. Well for myself the opinions and actions of others doesn't affect my faith one bit. Now when a Christian shows where he couldn't get a job or a home or car because of his faith then i will stand up with them. People of all persuasions are picked on or shunned in the work place and the real world, it is all part of this fallen world.


Agreed. Have there been wrongs done to Christians in this nations? Yes. Have there been Christians who have perpretrated wrongs against non-Christians? Yes. That being said, to claim persecution to me dimishes the real persecution, in every sense of the word, of Christians around the world who are imprisoned, beaten and even executed for their faith.

The fact is, I deal with more garbage being a woman (and oftentimes in the CHURCH) than I ever have being a Christian.

Deal with the wrongs when they happen but stop the pity party please.



Leon_Figg3 -> RE: Persecution in America? (5/30/2007 12:11:33 AM)

If the incidents sighted are examples of persecution, then what would you call what Christians go through in other counttries where they have to meet in secret, where they are jailed and tortured until they either die or renounce their faith?

Someday Christians may very well be persecuted in our country, but we are miles away from that at the present time. These are inconveniences designed to test us.



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