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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/23/2007 9:17:40 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1979
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
And shouldn't "come follow me" be interpreted as a call for discipleship? Or, was it a call for salvation AND discipleship?
A call to salvation is automatically a call to discipleship. The conversion of Saul of Tarsus is a good example. For some, the discipleship is a matter of time and growth, for others it is not. But the two are inseparable (Mt. 28:18-20) because Jesus is both Christ and Lord.
Discipleship is a matter of self-sacrifice, self-denial and a process of time. That is not salvation by faith alone.
It is in the sense that saving faith leads to self-sacrificial obedience, And thus we have the classic example of Abraham believing God and offering Isaac as a sacrifice. Thus obedience becomes a confirmation of genuine saving faith:
"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar... And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God" (Jas. 2:21-23).
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/23/2007 9:31:44 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2155
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From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
It is in the sense that saving faith leads to self-sacrificial obedience, And thus we have the classic example of Abraham believing God and offering Isaac as a sacrifice. Thus obedience becomes a confirmation of genuine saving faith:
"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar... And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God" (Jas. 2:21-23).
But that was not the time of his salvation/justification before God.
Besides, it does not address the issue. If salvation is by faith alone, then Abraham was not saved by discipleship and obedience--but by simple faith as Genesis 15:6 says. But if it is by faith and discipleship, then he wasn't fully saved until Genesis 22.
Of course, that is not sola fide.
_____________________________
Larry
Granddaughter, Skyler Lynn was born July 1, 2008.
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/24/2007 1:49:43 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1979
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quote:
If salvation is by faith alone, then Abraham was not saved by discipleship and obedience--but by simple faith as Genesis 15:6 says. But if it is by faith and discipleship, then he wasn't fully saved until Genesis 22.
Abraham was justified by faith, but that "simple faith" acknowledged God as both Lord and Savior, and that is really the point at issue.
The Most High God was Lord of Abraham's life. Therefore Abraham left Ur of the Chaldees "and he went out, not knowing whither he went", and subsequently he also placed Isaac on the altar, not knowing that God would provide Himself a lamb, but believing that God would raise Isaac from the dead.
Thus we see that obedience and discipleship were an integral part of Abraham's "simple faith", which translates for us today into receiving Christ as both Lord and Savior. He becomes Lord of our lives the moment we believe on Him.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/24/2007 7:30:25 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2155
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
Abraham was justified by faith, but that "simple faith" acknowledged God as both Lord and Savior, and that is really the point at issue.
The Most High God was Lord of Abraham's life. Therefore Abraham left Ur of the Chaldees "and he went out, not knowing whither he went", and subsequently he also placed Isaac on the altar, not knowing that God would provide Himself a lamb, but believing that God would raise Isaac from the dead.
Thus we see that obedience and discipleship were an integral part of Abraham's "simple faith", which translates for us today into receiving Christ as both Lord and Savior. He becomes Lord of our lives the moment we believe on Him.
First, no one in the Free Grace crowd has ever once denied that Christ is both Lord and Savior. Please understand that any suggestion that we have ever denied that is a misunderstanding of what we have said. I keep repeating myself lest you perpetuate a misunderstanding.
That Abraham obeyed God is beyond dispute. But look at Genesis 15:6.
"6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."
Nothing there mentions Savior. The English translation mentions LORD, presumably Elohim. I don't have time to look it up. I doubt that it is Jehovah/Yahweh in the original Hebrew, since that word does not appear until Exodus.
In any event, the Greek translations of this passage translate it as Theos. And Theos means neither Savior nor Lord. There are other words for that.
Contextually, Genesis 15:6 follows the declaration by God that Abraham's seed would be innumerable. That it would include the then-future Messiah may also be implied from other passages in the NT. There is the suggestion by the English translations that Abraham simply believed what he had been told. There was no commitment to discipleship there, no commitment to future obedience.
However, both the Hebrew and Greek seem to include within the meaning of "believe"----both "belief" in the facts as God told him AND the meaning of "loyalty."
Let me quote from the NET Bible notes on page 57:
"Num 25:12-13...(XXX Hebrew word) seems to carry by metonymy the meaning of "loyal, rewardable behavior" here, a meaning that fits nicely in Genesis 15,..."
I would like to present more but I am hindered by time.
_____________________________
Larry
Granddaughter, Skyler Lynn was born July 1, 2008.
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/25/2007 1:35:57 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1979
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
First, no one in the Free Grace crowd has ever once denied that Christ is both Lord and Savior.
The so-called Free Grace crowd pays lip service to Jesus as Lord by denying that it is necessary to receive Him as both Lord and Savior in order to be saved.
quote:
Nothing there mentions Savior.
This is what happens when one fails to compare Scripture with Scripture, and dig beneath the surface. The Gospel speaks distinctly of the Savior, and according to Paul (through Divine revelation) the Gospel was preached unto Abraham:
"And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, PREACHED BEFORE THE GOSPEL UNTO ABRAHAM, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed" (Gal. 3:8).
quote:
There was no commitment to discipleship there, no commitment to future obedience.
Once again, such remarks indicate a superficial understanding of the nautre of Abraham's faith. God said to Abram "I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect" (Gen. 17:1) -- a call to obedience and discipleship, and after seeing his faith in action, God said to Abraham "for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me" (Gen. 22:12). To fear God is to reverence Him as our Lord through unquestioning obedience.
James tells us that this obedience was a proof of his genuine faith, thus teaching that saving faith cannot be divorced from a complete submission to God as Lord. So does the writer to the Hebrews, stating "By faith he sojourned in the land of promises, AS IN A STRANGE COUNTRY, DWELLING IN TABERNACLES, with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise" (Heb. 11:9).
Abraham recokned himself a stranger and a pilgrim because he had fully submitted his will to the Most High God from the day that he believed God.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/25/2007 2:07:33 AM
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Aphobos
Posts: 663
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
"6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."
Nothing there mentions Savior. The English translation mentions LORD, presumably Elohim. I don't have time to look it up. I doubt that it is Jehovah/Yahweh in the original Hebrew, since that word does not appear until Exodus.
Actually, it is the personal Name of God (YHWH). In most English translations, whenever you see the word 'LORD' in upper-case, it is translating the Divine Name. This is in contrast to 'Lord', which most often translates the titular and generic adonai.
Both are seen in such passages as Psalm 110:1, where we read:
The LORD says to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet."
In other words, "YHWH says to my adonai..."
While the LXX may have a form of theos in Genesis 15:6, the Hebrew text (Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia) has YHWH. Remember, Moses wrote the Book of Genesis after the Exodus from Egypt -- after he learned the Divine Name. It would make sense for Moses, knowing the personal Name of God, to use it when writing the Pentateuch.
In Christ,
~Aphobos
< Message edited by Aphobos -- 7/25/2007 2:23:09 AM >
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/25/2007 7:41:49 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2155
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
This is what happens when one fails to compare Scripture with Scripture, and dig beneath the surface. The Gospel speaks distinctly of the Savior, and according to Paul (through Divine revelation) the Gospel was preached unto Abraham:
"And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, PREACHED BEFORE THE GOSPEL UNTO ABRAHAM, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed" (Gal. 3:8).
That doesn't really respond to my post.
I agree that the "Gospel" is a reference to the Messiah. That answers my post regarding "Savior" in what way?
Further, let's be careful not to anachronistically insist that Abraham would have understood "The Gospel" as we do. Revelation is progressive.
quote:
quote:
There was no commitment to discipleship there, no commitment to future obedience.
Once again, such remarks indicate a superficial understanding of the nature of Abraham's faith. God said to Abram "I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect"[/color] (Gen. 17:1) -- a call to obedience and discipleship, and after seeing his faith in action, God said to Abraham "for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me" (Gen. 22:12). To fear God is to reverence Him as our Lord through unquestioning obedience.
Notice that occurs AFTER Abraham was declared righteous in 15:6. So, it couldn't have been a condition for his salvation unless you want to insist that he wasn't saved after 15:6. Maybe not until 17:1? Is that what you are saying. Surely not.
quote:
James tells us that this obedience was a proof of his genuine faith, thus teaching that saving faith cannot be divorced from a complete submission to God as Lord.
I agree that Abraham's sacrifice was evidence of his faith. It was proof or evidence that faith was there. But it was not a condition for faith to be there.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 7/25/2007 7:59:43 AM >
_____________________________
Larry
Granddaughter, Skyler Lynn was born July 1, 2008.
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/25/2007 7:52:46 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2155
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Aphobos
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
"6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."
Nothing there mentions Savior. The English translation mentions LORD, presumably Elohim. I don't have time to look it up. I doubt that it is Jehovah/Yahweh in the original Hebrew, since that word does not appear until Exodus.
Actually, it is the personal Name of God (YHWH). In most English translations, whenever you see the word 'LORD' in upper-case, it is translating the Divine Name. This is in contrast to 'Lord', which most often translates the titular and generic adonai.
While the LXX may have a form of theos in Genesis 15:6, the Hebrew text (Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia) has YHWH. Remember, Moses wrote the Book of Genesis after the Exodus from Egypt -- after he learned the Divine Name. It would make sense for Moses, knowing the personal Name of God, to use it when writing the Pentateuch.
In Christ,
~Aphobos
Thank you for that bit of research. (BTW, I am quite aware of upper and lower cases of fonts in their renderings of the divine name. It's just that keeping the distinction straight in my my mind is a bit of doing.)
Anyway. As for Moses inserting the divine name in the narrative. The terms LORD and Lord are English translations. Adonai was not present in the Genesis 15:6 narrative was it. If I understand you guys correctly, Abraham's acceptance of God's Lordship was a condition for his salvation. But, if the words didn't mean Lord to Abraham, I fail to see how it makes your point.
BTW. I have presented you perfectly good suggestion and no one has picked up on it. The word "believe" or "faith" have strong overtones of "faithfulness" or "loyalty." Such meanings would imply both a recognition of the facts conveyed to Abraham his personal long-term dedication to them.
_____________________________
Larry
Granddaughter, Skyler Lynn was born July 1, 2008.
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/25/2007 9:07:44 AM
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Aphobos
Posts: 663
Joined: 8/22/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
If I understand you guys correctly, Abraham's acceptance of God's Lordship was a condition for his salvation. But, if the words didn't mean Lord to Abraham, I fail to see how it makes your point.
Not at all. I was merely providing some information on Genesis 15:6. There are several conditions for salvation (election, regeneration, etc.). Obedience to the Lord, however, is not one of them. Obedience to God is an invariable result of salvation, never its cause. The only obedience that can merit salvation is that of Christ. And only by faith in his finished obedience -- despairing of any faith in our own -- are we saved.
Jesus is Lord. Period. His lordship does not hinge on anyone's acceptance of the fact. All Christians are slaves to the Lord. It's a biblical reality.
"Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? ...You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness." (Rom 6:16,18)
On becoming a Christian, the slave is transferred to a new Owner. Salvation is granted so that the slave can finally obey his rightful Owner (Eze 36:24-27; Eph 2:10; Tit 2:12; Ja 2:14). The slave is not given a choice to "accept" the Owner. It's a state of affairs quite beyond the slave's control.
~Aphobos
< Message edited by Aphobos -- 7/25/2007 9:20:47 AM >
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/25/2007 9:21:11 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2155
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
Not at all. I was merely providing some information on Genesis 15:6. There are several conditions for salvation (election, regeneration, etc.). Obedience to the Lord, however, is not one of them.
Well, I am not Calvinist nor Arminian. This discussion is not supposed to address those. If anyone insists on that topic, I have been informed that the thread will be closed. In addressing the topic of Lordship salvation, "election, regeneration, etc" are outside the parameters of this discussion. By "conditions for salvation," the topic of the discussion is addressing OUR response and exactly what our responsibility is, not God's initiation.
quote:
Obedience to God is an invariable result of salvation, never its cause.
Faith itself is obedience. Actions can be, but it depends on what stage of obedience one is talking about. And obedience does not always inherently involve actions.
Properly speaking, the Lordship position insists that a commitment to obedience is mandatory. And frankly, with regard to obedience as actions, I agree that it is God's will for us to be obedient, but it not inevitable.
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Jesus is Lord. Period. His lordship does not hinge on anyone's acceptance of the fact.
Contrary to popular opinion, no Free Grace proponent has rejected that proposition.
quote:
All Christians are slaves to the Lord. It's a biblical reality.
Do all slaves obey think not. There will be consequences if they do not. I believe that if Christians are not obedient, there will be untoward consequences--always.
_____________________________
Larry
Granddaughter, Skyler Lynn was born July 1, 2008.
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/25/2007 10:57:10 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1979
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
This is what happens when one fails to compare Scripture with Scripture, and dig beneath the surface. The Gospel speaks distinctly of the Savior, and according to Paul (through Divine revelation) the Gospel was preached unto Abraham:
"And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, PREACHED BEFORE THE GOSPEL UNTO ABRAHAM, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed" (Gal. 3:8).
That doesn't really respond to my post.
Indeed it does. You claimed that Abraham did not see God as His Savior. Scripture says that the Gospel was preached unto Abraham, and the Gospel presents God with us (Immanuel) as Savior.
quote:
I agree that the "Gospel" is a reference to the Messiah. That answers my post regarding "Savior" in what way?
I didn't think we would have to return to the ABCs of the Gospel. Messiah means Christ, and Christ means Savior. And the Gospel is about the Savior and His salvation.
quote:
Further, let's be careful not to anachronistically insist that Abraham would have understood "The Gospel" as we do. Revelation is progressive.
As a matter of fact, Abraham understood the Gospel better than most evangelicals today. God revealed to Abraham far more than is recorded in Genesis. That is why "He looked for a city which hath foundations, whose Builder and Maker is God" (Heb. 11:10). We learn of this city with 12 foundations in the last book of the Bible. But God showed it to Abraham (presumably in a vision) and Abraham fixed his eyes on that city, rather than an earthly one.
quote:
Notice that occurs AFTER Abraham was declared righteous in 15:6. So, it couldn't have been a condition for his salvation unless you want to insist that he wasn't saved after 15:6. Maybe not until 17:1? Is that what you are saying. Surely not.
No one has said anything about obedience and discipleship being "conditions" of salvation. However, genuine saving faith includes these items, which means that genuine saving faith sees Christ as both Lord and Savior. And that is the whole point at issue.
quote:
I agree that Abraham's sacrifice was evidence of his faith. It was proof or evidence that faith was there. But it was not a condition for faith to be there.
James teaches that there is superficial faith and genuine faith. Genuine faith produces obedience and good works. Superficial faith is essentially dead. Which translates into genuine faith seeing Christ as BOTH Lord and Savior, and superficial faith simply assenting to the Gospel with no fruit of any kind.
I trust the issue has been sufficientyly clarified that we no longer have to belabor the point.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/26/2007 2:42:29 AM
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Aphobos
Posts: 663
Joined: 8/22/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
This discussion is not supposed to address those. If anyone insists on that topic, I have been informed that the thread will be closed. In addressing the topic of Lordship salvation, "election, regeneration, etc" are outside the parameters of this discussion.
Let's allow the moderators do the moderating, shall we? Really, I find it amazing that we are not allowed to use vocabulary that is related to Calvinism without causing some folks to fly off the proverbial handle. And within the context of the discussion, my statements were completely inside "the parameters". Knee-jerk reactions to words like "election" are not becoming of the mature Christian.
quote:
By "conditions for salvation," the topic of the discussion is addressing OUR response and exactly what our responsibility is, not God's initiation.
In an effort to make sure no one would misunderstand, I added one comment about conditions for salvation in general. I couldn't very well say, "There aren't ANY conditions for salvation in Christ." That simply would not be true. And so I qualified my statement, not with a dissertation on Calvinism, but with a simple, parenthetical statement. Alas, as you have demonstrated, there are some folks who will seize any opportunity to criticize no matter what is said.
quote:
Faith itself is obedience. Actions can be, but it depends on what stage of obedience one is talking about. And obedience does not always inherently involve actions.
Faith implies action. A lack of action implies a lack of faith. Now we're getting back at James 2, which is another thread. So we'll leave that argument for now.
quote:
Properly speaking, the Lordship position insists that a commitment to obedience is mandatory.
This is just plain false. The Lordship position, as advocated by John MacArthur at least, does not insist that obedience in mandatory for salvation. To say otherwise is no more factual nor intelligent than saying that a circle is a 4-side object. Anyone can read MacArthur's works on the subject for him/herself.
quote:
Do all slaves obey think not. There will be consequences if they do not. I believe that if Christians are not obedient, there will be untoward consequences--always.
Exactly. Why are there consequences? Because a slave is obligated to obey his Lord. That is precisely what Lordship salvation is about. You can't accept Jesus as Savior and not Lord. He doesn't give us that option. Thank you for proving my point. The notion of the "carnal" Christian is a myth, right alongside jackalopes and unicorns. Slaves that disobey will be disciplined, and the Spirit will reign them in. That is one of His roles in the economy of redemption.
We are not saved by our obedience; we are saved unto obedience. God saves us so that we can love and obey Him. Obedience is the result -- never the cause -- of salvation in Christ. Those who say otherwise are either legalists or antinomians.
~Aphobos
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/27/2007 3:10:06 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2155
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
This is just plain false. The Lordship position, as advocated by John MacArthur at least, does not insist that obedience in mandatory for salvation. To say otherwise is no more factual nor intelligent than saying that a circle is a 4-side object. Anyone can read MacArthur's works on the subject for him/herself.
I don't agree with you.
In order to not misrepresent John MacArthur, I'd like to limit my comments at this time. It happens to be late at night and I cannot find my borrowed copy of The Gospel According to Jesus in the dark.
But if you don't mind, please look at these pages in his text 33, 47, 53,174, 178.) If I beat you back to this thread, I'll supply the appropriate quotes. I cannot get them right now. Maybe you don't actually have your own copy of the book, as I don't either. Let's examine the quotes for starters. If I don't have firm ground, then I'll retract the statement until I do. Personally, I don't think I am wrong. Or, if I am, I am not far off.
quote:
And so I qualified my statement, not with a dissertation on Calvinism, but with a simple, parenthetical statement. Alas, as you have demonstrated, there are some folks who will seize any opportunity to criticize no matter what is said.
I never once criticized Calvinism. If I did, please show me where. I simply said that I was not a Calvinist and I would hope that we could avoid mentioning it lest the thread be closed down. Please see post 38-41, including that of the Administration.
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Faith implies action. A lack of action implies a lack of faith.... It's supposed to be. Trouble is that without deeds we would never know. In that, I think we would be in agreement.quote:
The notion of the "carnal" Christian is a myth, right alongside jackalopes and unicorns. Slaves that disobey will be disciplined, and the Spirit will reign them in. That is one of His roles in the economy of redemption.
It's another thread, I suppose. But the myth is that the carnal Christian is a myth.quote:
We are not saved by our obedience; we are saved unto obedience. I concur.
quote:
God saves us so that we can love and obey Him. Obedience is the result -- never the cause -- of salvation in Christ. Those who say otherwise are either legalists or antinomians.
I want to tread lightly here, so as not to misrepresent MacArthur or anyone else. Often the argument goes something like the following. We are saved by grace through faith--and are Christians. All those who become Christians obey. If someone does not obey they are not truly Christians. Or they say, if they do not have good works, they are not Christians. At this point, I have difficulty. What generally happens is that there is a retroactive judgment that the salvation by faith alone becomes either "not faith" or insufficient for salvation.
There is no latitude given for someone to fall into disobedience. No one is arguing for antinomianism, not even those of the FreeGrace camp. Unfortunately, that is often the accusation.
_____________________________
Larry
Granddaughter, Skyler Lynn was born July 1, 2008.
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/27/2007 9:43:30 AM
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Aphobos
Posts: 663
Joined: 8/22/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Maybe you don't actually have your own copy of the book, as I don't either. Let's examine the quotes for starters.
I'm almost positive that both The Gospel According To Jesus and its companion, Faith Works: The Gospel According To The Apostles, are in my basement library. I'm off to work in a few minutes, but I'll be sure to go down and look when I return this evening.
Regards,
~Aphobos
< Message edited by Aphobos -- 7/27/2007 9:54:26 AM >
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/27/2007 9:48:45 AM
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Aphobos
Posts: 663
Joined: 8/22/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Often the argument goes something like the following. We are saved by grace through faith--and are Christians. All those who become Christians obey. If someone does not obey they are not truly Christians.
I would never use such an argument, nor would MacArthur. What we would both agree upon is that a lack of works MAY BE an indication that a person isn't saved. That is all. Moreover, the only person qualified to judge in the matter (apart from God) is the person whose works are lacking. We can't see into a person's heart. Not to mix threads, but this is precisely the issue in James 2. Faith is demonstrated by action; inaction suggests (but does not prove) a lack of faith.
Yes, Christians stumble and fall. Yes, they can backslide for a season and appear no different than the world around them. But in the bigger picture, looking at the person's life as a whole, the trend is still a climb toward Christ-likeness. Sanctification is taking place. The Christian is becoming more righteous (practically speaking), and he/she will bear the fruits of the Spirit. We cannot fixate on one small peak or valley in the overall ascending graph of personal sanctification.
~Aphobos
< Message edited by Aphobos -- 7/27/2007 9:56:45 AM >
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/27/2007 2:46:27 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4150
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
I want to tread lightly here, so as not to misrepresent MacArthur or anyone else. Often the argument goes something like the following. We are saved by grace through faith--and are Christians. All those who become Christians obey. If someone does not obey they are not truly Christians. Or they say, if they do not have good works, they are not Christians. At this point, I have difficulty. What generally happens is that there is a retroactive judgment that the salvation by faith alone becomes either "not faith" or insufficient for salvation.
There is no latitude given for someone to fall into disobedience. No one is arguing for antinomianism, not even those of the FreeGrace camp. Unfortunately, that is often the accusation.
Here is my concern with Lordship Salvation. It can be taken too far. Believers can be actually encouraged to doubt their own salvation. Assurance of salvation is then mistakenly placed in their works instead of in the atoning work of Christ's blood.
Yes, the passages of scripture are there for each of us to examine ourselves, yet taken too far away from the proper understanding of atonement and a Biblical understanding of justification, Lordship Salvation can get quite close to the Mormon doctrine of doing all we can to help in our salvation and assurance being in our works.
I realize that those writing the Lordship Salvation books understand the difference theologically, but in practice Lordship Salvation often becomes a works-based theology.
(I have only loosely followed this thread so I apologize for possibly repeating what has already been stated)
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
IS CHURCH YOUR IDOL?
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/27/2007 9:57:30 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1979
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quote:
I realize that those writing the Lordship Salvation books understand the difference theologically, but in practice Lordship Salvation often becomes a works-based theology.
How could it become a "works-based" theology, when the emphasis is clearly on Jesus as both Lord and Christ, not on the sinner and his wonderful works and astounding "penance"?
That genuine saving faith cannot be separated from obedience and discipleship is a given, as we see in the life of Abraham. And Abraham is "the father of us all" when it comes to faith.
Lordship salvation is simply a return to the Bible truth that God has made Jesus BOTH Lord and Christ (Acts 2:36), therefore His Lordship cannot be separated from His being our Savior.
To "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" is not to believe merely on "Jesus", nor merely on "Jesus Christ", but altogether on "the Lord Jesus Christ". Each of those names and titles has a very profound significance for our salvation. And Paul was speaking by Divine inspiration. There must be no dichotomy in the Gospel or later.
That is why Christians should stop referring to Him as simply "Jesus" ,and revert back to what the apostles declared Him to be -- "the Lord Jesus Christ". That would clear up most of the fog. Yet we hear even pastors and teachers constantly speaking about "Jesus" and omitting the phrase "the Lord Jesus Christ".
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/27/2007 11:16:54 PM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 498
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quote:
Here is my concern with Lordship Salvation. It can be taken too far. Believers can be actually encouraged to doubt their own salvation. Assurance of salvation is then mistakenly placed in their works instead of in the atoning work of Christ's blood.
Yes, the passages of scripture are there for each of us to examine ourselves, yet taken too far away from the proper understanding of atonement and a Biblical understanding of justification, Lordship Salvation can get quite close to the Mormon doctrine of doing all we can to help in our salvation and assurance being in our works.
I realize that those writing the Lordship Salvation books understand the difference theologically, but in practice Lordship Salvation often becomes a works-based theology.
Hi Crankius:
You and I have been on the same side of the fence on so many topics Im surprised were not together on this one?
There is a root cause for the fear of Lordship salvation tending towards legalism works-based salvation and that has to do with a synergistic assumptions on mans obtaining salvation.
Those who promote Lordship salvation the most loudly are monergistic and outright reject any kind of works-based salvation because they preach and teach the impossibility of it by reason of the total depravity of man.
A child of wrath who is dead in tresspasses and sins cannot obtain by works or law keeping any improvement on his spiritual condition before God. His reformations may bring praise because he has refrained from greater scandalous sins, but it doesnt remove the simplest white lie from the record of his life. Jesus blood alone is sufficient.
But they who endorse a synergistic help-God-out by our free will are locked into thinking that their deeds are of some value and their free-wills are able to obtain salvation for themselves, therefore its is a natural conclusion for synergists to feel pressed into legalism when the Lordship of Christ is stressed.
Since Christ is Lord before they are saved and before their conversion the acts of obedience is immediately placed upon them in their own consciences, of course they know that they have nothing but filthy rags to bring, but therein lay the problem. God is not birthing anyone because they have offered a mistaken set of filthy rags in place of righteous obedience, they are required by God to repent of dead-works. A literal throwing oneself upon the Lord Jesus Christ for his mercy and his willingness to reign over them is the essential heart of asking for salvation.
Any design in mans heart to obtain mercy without a willingness to submit to Lordship is theologically false and practically an impossibility. The impossibility lay in God leaving his disciple in ignorance of himself. God indwells us by the Spirit and the Spirit of God teaches and shows us what belongs to Christ and his Lordship is preeminently understood.
Everyone knows that allowances are understood since not all people whom are saved have the advantage of a complete gospel message, and in America its growing sparse. Nevertheless the Spirit of God reveals the Lordship of Christ in the heart of his disciples from the outset.
Even those who have very little gospel message do not take up theological stances to justify preaching a Christ that is not right now reigning and when Christ is believed upon He is determined to reign over us in righteousness. In fact they that have that Spirit of adoption desire the sincere milk of the Word that they may grow thereby. In that Word lay the breastmilk of Christ's divinity and power to lead and guide us, to protect and provide for us and train us up in righteousness bearing fruits unto holiness.
I have met many that have "cut deals" with God, namely asking God for this or that and promising some obedience or some thing in return. The outcome that I have witnessed over the years has been disasterous. "I will do something for you God if you will do this for me God" is nowhere found in scripture or sound teaching. Nevertheless that doesnt mean folks dont do it, and do it often. But we seek to build disciples from the outset with all truth laid open in plain sight that a man may look upon and when he has set his hand to the plow will not look back.
John
< Message edited by Gloryandgrace -- 7/27/2007 11:27:01 PM >
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Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/27/2007 11:28:16 PM
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HisbyHischoice
Posts: 832
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Florida
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Would you rather people doubt once in awhile, or have false assurance? We are told to examine ourselves.
quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
I want to tread lightly here, so as not to misrepresent MacArthur or anyone else. Often the argument goes something like the following. We are saved by grace through faith--and are Christians. All those who become Christians obey. If someone does not obey they are not truly Christians. Or they say, if they do not have good works, they are not Christians. At this point, I have difficulty. What generally happens is that there is a retroactive judgment that the salvation by faith alone becomes either "not faith" or insufficient for salvation.
There is no latitude given for someone to fall into disobedience. No one is arguing for antinomianism, not even those of the FreeGrace camp. Unfortunately, that is often the accusation.
Here is my concern with Lordship Salvation. It can be taken too far. Believers can be actually encouraged to doubt their own salvation. Assurance of salvation is then mistakenly placed in their works instead of in the atoning work of Christ's blood.
Yes, the passages of scripture are there for each of us to examine ourselves, yet taken too far away from the proper understanding of atonement and a Biblical understanding of justification, Lordship Salvation can get quite close to the Mormon doctrine of doing all we can to help in our salvation and assurance being in our works.
I realize that those writing the Lordship Salvation books understand the difference theologically, but in practice Lordship Salvation often becomes a works-based theology.
(I have only loosely followed this thread so I apologize for possibly repeating what has already been stated)
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"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you." ---John 15:16
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/27/2007 11:30:33 PM
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HisbyHischoice
Posts: 832
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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John 14:15
"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments."
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"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you." ---John 15:16
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/27/2007 11:55:34 PM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 498
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
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Lordship salvation is only an attempt to stem the tide of scandal, sins, wickedness of all kinds, adultery, swearing, blasphemies, theft, covetousness, dishonoring parents and whatever else is contrary to Gods law. The perspective is that false converts are being made, that the gospel message is anemic, lacking the fear of God, lacking faith and repentance, lacking faithful living witnesses and faithful proclamation. What goes forth is an americanized culturalized fornication with compromise. Simply put its a message about Jesus that is really not what He said, about a gospel that is really not what He preached to live a life thats really not whats being lived and to obtain a salvation which is only granted to disciples without being a disciple.
All the right words and all the wrong ways to obtain it.
It was argued in earlier posts that faith somehow was the stop-gap means of obtaining salvation, that faith alone ( a very theologically important concept) was the practice of Abram
and that faith alone set him in a right condition before God. But what was not said was enough to fill the pages of Barth's,'church dogmatics'.
Somehow in the mix was the proposition that faith alone meant a vagueness and ignorance which safely held the saved from the examinations of other disciples.
Jesus said "Joh 8:19 They said to him therefore, "Where is your Father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also."
Joh 8:20 These words he spoke in the treasury, as he taught in the temple; but no one arrested him, because his hour had not yet come.
Joh 8:21 So he said to them again, "I am going away, and you will seek me, and you will die in your sin. Where I am going, you cannot come."
Joh 8:22 So the Jews said, "Will he kill himself, since he says, 'Where I am going, you cannot come'?"
Joh 8:23 He said to them, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
Joh 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins."
Joh 8:25 So they said to him, "Who are you?" Jesus said to them, "Just what I have been telling you from the beginning.
Scripture nullifying concepts that supposedly shield the 'faith alone believer' tell us that to use such texts as those above amount to 'discipling' before conversion. But its all just a badmitten
of words that go nowhere. The fear of God is all but removed and nullifyed when some one says
"You need to believe in who Jesus says he is". But instead ignorace is bliss, namely 'faith alone' in the vague idea of a saving God cuts the conviction of this text to nothing but a local rebuke to old leaders of years gone by.
The time will tell whether the doctrines of Freegrace will lead the body of Christ whom endorse such views into increasing holiness and righteousness, or will it lead them into justifications of sin and abandonment of Lordship.
The exhortation "you will die in your sins" has been replaced by "just pray this prayer" and leave the theologians to fight over such things.
This kind of prayer and this kind of attitude towards a full presentation of the gospel message I fear will in judgment day be a horrifying source of shame and rebuke to its promoters.
John
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Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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