|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 8/2/2007 6:48:05 PM
|
|
|
crankius
Posts: 4358
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
Jesus hadn't died yet and there was no way He forgave her or any of the others in the NT for the eternal consequence IMO.
For this to be true, then all those who lived and died prior to Christ's death and resurrection have perished under the wrath of God for sin.
Consider an OT example of salvation prior to Christ's death and resurrection--Romans 4 makes it clear that Abraham was justified through righteousness that came by faith. He was justified the same way we are—also see Romans 3:21-25.
To understand your perspective, if you don't mind my asking, are you Catholic?
At any rate, no, I don’t think Jesus was simply saving her from her earthly consequences. I think that He literally meant that her faith in Him had saved her eternally.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
He Himself is our peace! Ephesians 2:14:a
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 8/2/2007 8:16:23 PM
|
|
|
Ezra
Posts: 1784
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
I'm going to give you the answers from the Lordship Salvation perspective.
Please explain the Lordship Salvation view of the woman who was told her faith saved her (Luke 7:36-50).
-The woman hasn't clearly spoken that Christ is Lord, so she hasn't professed with her mouth.
-It is not enough to experience mere sorrow over sins. This woman is clearly identified in the text as a sinner, which means she hadn't yet physically left her sin.
What the text does tell us is that Jesus recognized that she "loved much". He then forgives her of her sins, yet we have no evidence that she has even asked for forgiveness. Certainly as Lord He saw into her heart, the same as He does with all of us, which is the beauty of how the Lord views the conversion of the sinner versus how we view the conversion of the sinner. We cannot see into the heart and so we look for all sorts of outward manifestations of real conversion. We all agree that a life born again and filled with the Spirit will change, but since we cannot really see into the heart of man we cannot make judgments about who is saved and who isn't. In a Lordship church, this woman would have been viewed as only having sorrow, but since she was still clearly in her sin, and was not even asking for forgiveness, she would not be viewed as repentant.
Please explain how the thief on the cross who had no evidence of fruit or repentance was told by Jesus he would be with Him in paradise.
The Lordship camp would claim that merely believing or even recognizing is not enough. One must actually literally make Christ the Lord over their life in order for genuine salvation to take place.
Was Peter in a state of salvation when he denied Christ three times?
Lordship theology would claim that since this man literally publicly professed with his mouth a denial of Christ, at that moment he should have examined himself and found that his works were not in line with a true Christian, and thus he should have at that moment been on his knees praying for salvation and making Christ the Lord over his life.
While David was living in a sinful state, was his salvation sure?
While David was committing sin with Bathsheba and murdering her husband (showing a pattern of sin), his works were clearly not in line with one who has made God the Lord over his life, and thus, it would be evidence that he was never really saved to begin with. He should have repented and turned from his life of sin and literally made God the Lord over his life, and thus ensured his own salvation.
Everyone should be more informed of exactly what Lordship Salvation means when it functions in reality rather than just theology on a page.
Crankius:
You talk about "respectful dialogue", and then turn around and present a concoction of what you imagine is the response of those who hold to Lordship Salvation. That is not respectful in the least, since it is quite fanciful.
At the same time, you by-passed my responses in silence, since you realized that that was indeed what the Scriptures teach.
Unless you are prepared to quote chapter and verse from some of the proponents of Lorship Salvation and actually present the above thoughts from them, all you are doing is presenting propaganda.
So please show us from the writings or preaching of those who you claim believe such things as described above, so that we can verify for ourselves that you have properly represented Lordship Salvation.
You had better start backing up your allegations, or simply drop them. This is too serious a matter for empty debate.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 8/2/2007 8:47:39 PM
|
|
|
Ezra
Posts: 1784
Status: offline
|
quote:
That is eisegesis of the passage. You're out of context and now you want to "apply" it by importing the idea into the text.
So, Larry, now you are using exegesis and context as your crutch. Exegesis and context are fine in their place, but broader Bible principles are even more critical, and it seems that they escape you.
Your basic stance is that the professing Christian is not called upon to examine himself. Well, that is totally false, even if we were to ignore 2 Corinthians for the moment.
Let's take James 2:14: "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?"
This is addressed to professing Christians, and is a call to examine our lives (in context) to see if there is genuine fruit of the Holy Spirit. When the Gospel is preached, there will no doubt be professing Christians who need to hear this.
Let's take 2 Peter 1:9,10: "But he that lacketh these things [that reveal the fruit of the Spirit] is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall".
This is clearly a call to examine ourselves and our lack or abundance of spiritual fruitfulness (in context).
Let's take 1 John 1:6; 2:11: "If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth... But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes".
Another call to examine ourselves, and definitely in context.
I already pointed out to you the parables of the Kingdom (to which you gave no response) as indicative of the existence of true possessors and false professors. Hence the necessity to preach the examination of ourselves when the Gospel is preached.
< Message edited by Ezra -- 8/2/2007 9:38:33 PM >
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 8/2/2007 9:35:51 PM
|
|
|
Ezra
Posts: 1784
Status: offline
|
quote:
To anyone who has actually read MacArthur's work on the subject (without an axe to grind), the accusation that he makes obedience necessary for salvation is laughable. He is so unmistakably clear on that matter, there is no room for doubt. But when people read MacArthur's detractors and *think* they know what the man teaches, they are sadly and seriously deceived.
In Christ,
~Aphobos
Thanks for those quotes Aphobos. They basically put an end to this discussion with Bible truth clearly presented.
However, it is really quite amazing how the power of propaganda always seems to overshadow the power of truth.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
|
|
|
|
|
The Woman at the Well - 8/2/2007 11:39:44 PM
|
|
|
lmartuneac
Posts: 54
Joined: 7/29/2007
Status: offline
|
Luke 7:36-50
The woman had just washed His feet with her tears, and “did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed His feet, and anointed them with the ointment.” Jesus acknowledges to the Pharisees what the woman had just done unto Him. Then Jesus said, quote:
“Wherefore I say unto thee, her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little” (Luke 7:47).
In the matter of her salvation, Jesus says that it was her “faith,” not a submissive action or attitude, that had saved her.
There is no upfront or "whole-hearted commitment," no submission of every area of life, no promise of obedience; she is saved by faith alone!
LM
_____________________________
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man," (Col. 4:6).
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Woman at the Well - 8/3/2007 12:32:46 AM
|
|
|
Gloryandgrace
Posts: 484
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: lmartuneac
Luke 7:36-50
The woman had just washed His feet with her tears, and “did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed His feet, and anointed them with the ointment.” Jesus acknowledges to the Pharisees what the woman had just done unto Him. Then Jesus said, quote:
“Wherefore I say unto thee, her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little” (Luke 7:47).
In the matter of her salvation, Jesus says that it was her “faith,” not a submissive action or attitude, that had saved her.
There is no upfront or "whole-hearted commitment," no submission of every area of life, no promise of obedience; she is saved by faith alone!
LM
lmartuneac:
Your basing your argument on silence. There is nothing that disproves the evangelistic ministry
of Lordship salvation as we have been presenting it.
This woman met Jesus face to face. There was a connection and unspoken understandings that we can only speculate upon. I dont have to speculate on the gospel message from our Lord's silence. What replaced crying at his feet in contrition is crying to the Lord in prayer asking the Father to forgive our sins and accept us for Jesus sake.
This is only another attempt at dumbing down the gospel, minimalizing those great truths about Jesus Christ.
I suppose that woman just showed up and didnt even know Jesus? I mean do we have scripture that validates any interaction with Jesus from days or weeks earlier? What about the preaching of Jesus before hand? Do you think she might have heard testimony or heard for herself about Jesus Christ? Should we conclude the only thought or interaction she had with the Lord Jesus Christ is contained in the scripture narrative? Does she always carry an alabaster box of ointment with her?
So once we are done building doctrines on silence what shall we do with those teachings that are abundant in scripture? Shall we modify them to suit our imagination that we surmised from events where our Lord is recorded as only speaking very limitedly?
Personally this tactic amounts to a very weak portrail of Jesus Christ's salvation and degrades the scripture as a whole.
As to the woman and her utter lack of verbage from the gospel narrative, does this mean she didnt have a submissive spirit? What does bowing at Jesus feet mean? Why cry and wipe his feet when a hearty 'free-grace' belief and handshake would have sufficed? Couldnt we read into the text that such an action would have been representative of "loving much"?
Or maybe such tears and contrition are more representative of a submissive heart than the 'matter of fact' attitude that she could have done?
Maybe we should take this event a little further? Shall we? Luk 7:39 Now when the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, "If this man were a prophet, he would have known who and what sort of woman this is who is touching him, for she is a sinner."
Luk 7:40 And Jesus answering said to him, "Simon, I have something to say to you." And he answered, "Say it, Teacher."
We could easily suppose that the Pharasee was 'free-grace' meaning he invited Jesus to his home, he must have respected Jesus and he decided to go against the other pharasees that wouldnt have anything to do with Jesus. So could we say that the Pharasee was in the position of free grace? Could we assume he believed? Could we assume that since Jesus was 'invited in' that means something spiritual happened? Do you see where I am going? With just a little silence from Jesus and the narrarator I can turn the pharasee into a believer and turn Jesus rebuke of him into a lesson on love. But is this the way the Spirit wants us to handle the scripture? With some silence and crafty conclusions we can arrive at whatever destinations we want.
No my friend lmartuneac, this narrative doesnt undo Lordship salvation, it only reveals the kind of grace and mercy Jesus extends to sinners, the other doctrines of justification, sanctification, atonement and redemption are not mentioned, therefore shall we conclude we dont need those either for salvation? It takes more to disprove Lordship salvation than silence and your own conclusions from silence. As youve just read, I was able to twist the text will little effort to prove some point, some stupid point on a post.
Gods Word deserves better handling.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Woman at the Well - 8/3/2007 10:05:00 AM
|
|
|
Him4all
Posts: 427
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline
|
Crankius,
quote:
For this to be true, then all those who lived and died prior to Christ's death and resurrection have perished under the wrath of God for sin.
I don't think so. I think Christ's death is the focus point for all who died before, and all who died after Christ's death. All who lived and died before weren't eternally forgiven until Jesus paid the price, which for us and them was 2000 years ago. Whether or not they met the requirement was irrelevant, because the price for sin simply had not been paid yet.
As far as Romans 4 and Abrahams righteousness the scripture says it was "reckoned" unto him. There is a difference between 'imputed' and 'imparted'...between being 'declared' right and 'being' right.
In the Rom 3 verse you posted it appears that all debts/sins were, put on hold/tolerated/left unpunished, but they weren't forgiven. They couldn't be until the blood had been shed.
ROM 3:24 they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins;
NIV says "he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished"
In other words the sins of the OT people were "temporally" forgiven/passed over/left unpunished, that God's blessings/fellowship might not be hindered. But those sins weren't "eternally" paid for yet, because the only sacrifice that could take care of them eternally had not been shed yet. Does that make sense? I'm not asking for you to agree, I just hope you understand where I'm coming from.
quote:
are you Catholic? No, I'm not. I was born and raised as such but at age 19 I had forsaken God and church attendance. 4 years later I came to a saving knowledge of Jesus. That was in 1972.
You didn't answer my earlier question Crankius. Why did Jesus have to die on the cross if all he had to do was tell people their sins were eternally forgiven??? I think this is a huge question for the discussion.
DR
< Message edited by Him4all -- 8/3/2007 10:13:43 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
God's Grace or Lordship's Legalism - 8/3/2007 12:43:20 PM
|
|
|
lmartuneac
Posts: 54
Joined: 7/29/2007
Status: offline
|
For Your Weekend Reading and Consideration:
I am posting an article by Pastor George Zeller. It points up some of the disconcerting problems with the Lordship interpretation of the Gospel. This article will help many of you to gain a better understanding how Lordship Salvation confuses and frustrates the grace of God (gal. 2:21).
THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN GOD’S GRACE AND LORDSHIP LEGALISM
This brings us to a teaching of our day, common in Reformed circles, popularly known as LORDSHIP SALVATION.
Essentially Lordship salvation teaches that simple faith in Jesus Christ is not enough for salvation. Something else is needed. A solid commitment to Christ as Lord is needed. A person needs to surrender to the Lordship of Christ. A willingness to obey Christ’s commands is necessary. Also the sinner must fulfill the demands of discipleship or be willing to fulfill them. This includes loving Christ supremely, forsaking possessions, etc. (see Luke 14:25-33).
What do Lordship teachers do with Acts 16:30-31? [“And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.”] This verse teaches that the sinner must do the believing and that God must do the saving. It teaches that faith and faith alone is necessary for salvation. It does not say, “Believe and surrender to Christ’s Lordship and fulfill the terms of discipleship and thou shalt be saved.” It simply says, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.” What does it mean to believe? The hymn-writer has explained it in very simple terms, “Tis so sweet to trust in Jesus, just to take Him at His Word, just to rest upon His promise, just to know THUS SAITH THE LORD!”
Those who teach Lordship salvation are forced to redefine saving faith. It means more than just simple, childlike faith in Jesus Christ. They might say something like this: “We believe in Acts 16:31 just as much as you do, but you need to understand what the word ‘believe’ really means. ‘Believe’ means more than just believe. Saving faith involves much more.” What does it mean to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ? Lordship salvation teachers would say that it involves the following: It means surrendering to His Lordship. It means turning from sin. It means submitting to His authority and to His Word. It means obeying His commands, or at least having a willingness to obey. It means fully accepting all the terms of discipleship.
Consider this last statement. Does saving faith really involve accepting all the terms of discipleship? Does saving faith really include such requirements as loving Christ supremely, forsaking all that one has, denying self, etc. (Luke 14:25-33, etc.)? A saved person should do all of these things, but he does not do these things in order to be saved. He is saved because he throws himself upon the mercy of a loving Saviour who died for him. One reason why he needs to be saved is because he does not love Christ supremely. He is guilty of breaking the greatest commandment! It is not our COMMITMENT that saves us, it is our CHRIST who saves us! It is not our SURRENDER that saves us, it is our SAVIOUR who does! It is not what I do for God; it’s what God has done for me.
Avoid the dangerous error of taking what should be the RESULT of salvation and making it the REQUIREMENT of salvation: It is because I am saved that I surrender to His Lordship (Rom. 12:1-2). It is because I am saved that I turn from sin and begin to learn what it means to live unto righteousness (1 Pet. 2:24). It is because I am saved that I follow Him in willing obedience (1 John 2:3-5). It is because I am saved that I agree to the terms of discipleship and begin to learn all that discipleship involves (Luke chapter 14).
It is because I am saved that I submit to His authority over every area of my life (Rom. 6:13). I do these things because I am saved by the grace of God, not in order to be saved. Do not turn the results into requirements! Don’t turn the grace of God into legalism [adding unbiblical requirements to the gospel message].
Don’t confuse saving faith with that which saving faith ought to produce. Don’t confuse repentance with the fruits of repentance. Behavior and fruit are the evidences of saving faith but they are not the essence of saving faith. Don’t confuse the fruit with the root. Before you can “come after” Christ in discipleship (Luke 9:23; Matt. 11:29-30), you must “come unto” Christ for salvation (Matthew 11:28). Discipleship is not a requirement for salvation; discipleship is the obligation of every saved person.
Salvation involves Christ loving me (Rom. 5:8; Gal. 2:20); discipleship involves me loving Christ (Matthew 10:37). Because we are justified freely by His grace we measure up to the full demands of God’s righteousness in Christ (2 Cor. 5:21). Because we are frail we often fail to measure up to the full demands of discipleship (Luke 14:25-33). The requirements of discipleship are many; the requirement for salvation is simple faith and trust in the Saviour.
This article appears as an Appendix entry in my book: In Defense of the Gospel.
_____________________________
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man," (Col. 4:6).
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 8/3/2007 2:01:55 PM
|
|
|
GrahamCracker
Posts: 1959
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
That is eisegesis of the passage. You're out of context and now you want to "apply" it by importing the idea into the text.
So, Larry, now you are using exegesis and context as your crutch. Exegesis and context are fine in their place, but broader Bible principles are even more critical, and it seems that they escape you.
Your basic stance is that the professing Christian is not called upon to examine himself. Well, that is totally false, even if we were to ignore 2 Corinthians for the moment.
Do you do that on purpose: Make up things that someone has not said? I cannot have meant that because it directly contradicts what I said earlier.
In post 171 I said:
quote:
For the record, I do believe it is legitimate to challenge someone who is habitually disobedient. But insofar as regular self-examination for Christians who are trying to do God's will--no, I do not believe that 2 Cor. 13:5 [means that]
What I said is that Christians who are doing God's will should not constantly question whether or not they are saved. That we should examine ourselves with regard to possible sin in our lives--I affirm that and have never denied that.
quote:
I already pointed out to you the parables of the Kingdom (to which you gave no response) as indicative of the existence of true possessors and false professors. Hence the necessity to preach the examination of ourselves when the Gospel is preached.
When did I say there were no false professors? Typically, those parables refer to people who believe they are Christians based upon their works. Normally, they do not lack works but rather depend upon them for their assurance.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 8/3/2007 3:03:30 PM
|
|
|
GrahamCracker
Posts: 1959
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
|
quote:
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall".
Ezra,
No statement encourages doubt. It is directing us as to how we may have more assurance. Be diligent to make it sure. It does not say, "dilgently question your calling."
quote:
Let's take 1 John 1:6; 2:11: "If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth... But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes".
Another call to examine ourselves, and definitely in context.
Don't you think that Christians can be out of fellowship with Christ? Don't you think that believers can lie and lose sight of the truth? Where is the "call" to re[-examine our salvation?"
2 Peter has already referred to people who "are nearsighted and...and forgotten that they were purified from his sins."
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 8/3/2007 9:25:39 PM
|
|
|
crankius
Posts: 4358
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
Crankius:
You talk about "respectful dialogue", and then turn around and present a concoction of what you imagine is the response of those who hold to Lordship Salvation. That is not respectful in the least, since it is quite fanciful.
Assumption. My answers are not imagined or fanciful.
quote:
At the same time, you by-passed my responses in silence, since you realized that that was indeed what the Scriptures teach.
Again, assumption. I actually just wanted to show you the kind of answers that were typical when I sat under Lordship Salvation teaching.
quote:
Unless you are prepared to quote chapter and verse from some of the proponents of Lorship Salvation and actually present the above thoughts from them, all you are doing is presenting propaganda.
So please show us from the writings or preaching of those who you claim believe such things as described above, so that we can verify for ourselves that you have properly represented Lordship Salvation.
You had better start backing up your allegations, or simply drop them. This is too serious a matter for empty debate.
There is no propaganda in what I posted. Which answer do you think doesn't line up with the Lordship Salvation thinking? If you tell me specifically, I can then show you a quote from a Lordship Salvation teacher.
I've always been very clear that I am looking at how Lordship Salvation exists in practice...once it is no longer just theology on a page, but actually living and breathing amongst sinners. It is not pretty.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
He Himself is our peace! Ephesians 2:14:a
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Woman at the Well - 8/3/2007 9:27:34 PM
|
|
|
crankius
Posts: 4358
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
You didn't answer my earlier question Crankius. Why did Jesus have to die on the cross if all he had to do was tell people their sins were eternally forgiven??? I think this is a huge question for the discussion.
If you want to talk about atonement or propitiation, you should start a different thread.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
He Himself is our peace! Ephesians 2:14:a
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Woman at the Well - 8/3/2007 11:13:29 PM
|
|
|
Ezra
Posts: 1784
Status: offline
|
quote:
Which answer do you think doesn't line up with the Lordship Salvation thinking? If you tell me specifically, I can then show you a quote from a Lordship Salvation teacher.
Crankius:
Just as Aphobos gave us the very words of John MacArthur, you and Imartuneac should do the same for whichever source you have in mind. Quote the sources which you claim present such views.
From what we see in MacArthur's words above, there is nothing devious or deviant. It is straight Bible truth.
So show us the evidence of a warped Gospel instead of what you believe might be the response or belief of those with whom you disagree.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Woman at the Well - 8/3/2007 11:47:48 PM
|
|
|
lmartuneac
Posts: 54
Joined: 7/29/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
Just as Aphobos gave us the very words of John MacArthur, you and Imartuneac should do the same for whichever source you have in mind. Quote the sources which you claim present such views.
So show us the evidence of a warped Gospel...
I will weigh in here.
First, I will link you to an article at my blog where I quote John MacArthur liberally. In his own words MacArthur describes exactly what he believes the Gospel (that results in salvation) to be. See: Is Lordship Salvation An "Exchange?"
I might not use the term "warped Gospel." I would, however, call it a "man-centered message that frustrates grace" (Gal. 2:21).
Second, in my book I quote MacArthur and other LS advocates liberally. This way there is no mistake, or misrepresentation as to what they believe and teach. I then follow up with the biblcial answers to their interpretation of the Gospel, which is antitheticial to Scriptures.
Third, see my next post. I am going to quote MacArthur. I will encourage you and any person in this thread to answer a question about what they will read from MacArthur's The Gospel According to Jesus.
LM
_____________________________
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man," (Col. 4:6).
|
|
|
|
|
Is This a "Warped Gospel?" - 8/3/2007 11:54:34 PM
|
|
|
lmartuneac
Posts: 54
Joined: 7/29/2007
Status: offline
|
This is an excerpt from John MacArthur’s The Gospel According to Jesus. The statement appears in both the original and revised version (pp. 218 & 252 respectively). This is that statement:
quote:
"Perhaps the most comprehensive invitation to salvation in (all) the epistles comes in James 4:7-10... The invitation in 4:7-10 is directed at those who are not saved..."
Here is the Bible passage Dr. MacArthur refers to as an “invitation to salvation.”
"Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up," (James 4:7-10).
I will ask just two questions:
1) Is the epistle of James, and this passage specifically, "directed at those who are not saved," or to those who are saved already?
2) Do we find salvation by the grace of God through faith in Christ (Eph. 2:8-9) anywhere in James 4:7-10?
LM
_____________________________
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man," (Col. 4:6).
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is This a "Warped Gospel?" - 8/4/2007 9:57:30 AM
|
|
|
Ezra
Posts: 1784
Status: offline
|
quote:
I will ask just two questions:
1) Is the epistle of James, and this passage specifically, "directed at those who are not saved," or to those who are saved already?
James is writing to Christians -- professors and possessors.
quote:
2) Do we find salvation by the grace of God through faith in Christ (Eph. 2:8-9) anywhere in James 4:7-10?
No. MacArthur is clearly mistaken in this particular instance.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is This a "Warped Gospel?" - 8/4/2007 11:12:06 AM
|
|
|
Gloryandgrace
Posts: 484
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
|
Ezra:
James was writing to both believers and unbelievers.
The opening salutation 1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Since there are not twelve tribes of believers he must be refering to Israel and its twelve tribes, and we cannot assume that all twelve tribes are now fully saved. Instead we take this as a general letter written to the tribes irrespective of their spiritual condition concerning Christ.
Such as we would find in Pauls writings to 'the beloved', the 'church'
'brethren in Christ' etc.
Johns use of the text in james 4 1From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
2Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
3Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
4Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
5Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
6But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
7Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
9Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
10Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
11Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
12There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
My determination after reading the context is that James can very well be speaking to those unconverted brethren of his that have not believed on Christ as well as those who might have been converted.
The context of chapter 4 gives us a great bit of leeway to use this text for unbelievers. Especially that section of verse 7-10.
It is clear that believers are ment in the opening remarks, but it is again clear that 'sinners' being the unregenerate are being admonished in a portion of this chapter. That portion which John M quotes.
Most of us dont use this text for unbelievers because we are looking at ourselves in James, examining ourselves as this epistle tends to make us do.
So Ezra, I think John has good ground to use this text toward unbelievers with fair contextual grounds as justification to do so.
Have a read for yourself again and tell me what you think?
John
< Message edited by Gloryandgrace -- 8/4/2007 12:29:25 PM >
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is This a "Warped Gospel?" - 8/4/2007 11:35:19 AM
|
|
|
Gloryandgrace
Posts: 484
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
|
lmartuneac:
The fact that you ask plenty of questions and answer none is telling me you are only giving us a propoganda from your viewpoint.
quote:
I will ask just two questions:
1.) Is the epistle of James, and this passage specifically, "directed at those who are not saved," or to those who are saved already?
2) Do we find salvation by the grace of God through faith in Christ (Eph. 2:8-9) anywhere in James 4:7-10?
You cannot be serious, you dont even answer by quoting your own book.
The bible is taken as a whole, it is looked upon as a complete message, not simply what is written by one holy author, but that one holy author is seen in repect of all the other holy authors that have offered their inspired words.
I dont simply believe James alone to have good works, I believe Paul that I cannot be saved by them, I dont believe John alone to believe upon Christ I believe Matthew too to repent and believe upon Christ.
I dont believe John alone to follow Jesus, I believe Luke too, to take my cross and follow Jesus.
Psalm 119:160
The sum of Your word is truth,And every one of Your righteous ordinances is everlasting.
The sum of God's word, not the selected ones that lack one phrase, or contain more phrases. All are to be accounted for in the formation of any doctrine.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is This a "Warped Gospel?" - 8/4/2007 11:46:17 AM
|
|
|
Gloryandgrace
Posts: 484
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
"man-centered message that frustrates grace" (Gal. 2:21).
lmartuneac:
Im game, go ahead, tell me what frustrates grace.
What in JM's teaching or mine since I am a Lordship advocate hinders the grace of God? Ive given you plenty of quotes from me, and you have John's book so let hear some examples of 'frustration' to hinder a person from God saving them.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Woman at the Well - 8/4/2007 12:59:54 PM
|
|
|
crankius
Posts: 4358
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
So show us the evidence of a warped Gospel instead of what you believe might be the response or belief of those with whom you disagree.
Ezra,
Please stop with the condescending attitude. I’m not imagining anything. I heard it and saw it myself. I read my four scenarios to three others from that church the other day, and they all laughed and said “exactly”.
I have some old sermons of MacArthur and I looked through them, and while they will say the same stuff I heard from the two pastors, MacArthur also will recant in the same sermon, so his statements are actually quite confusing and contradictory. I’m thinking his book is more clear. I’ll try to pick up a copy today—but really you should read it for yourself.
One of the major problems I have with MacArthur’s writing on the topic is that he uses the results of salvation in the believer as the heart of salvation, rather than focusing on Christ and the true Gospel message for conversion. Sanctification, growing faith, and discipleship then become confused with initial conversion. While I’m sure he recognizes the difference between growth in the Spirit-filled regenerate believer and the conversion of the unregenerate unSpirit-filled unbeliever, his Lordship Theology in practice does not, and it leads to great confusion.
The quotes from MacArthur are in quote boxes in blue following the answers I gave.
quote:
I'm going to give you the answers from the Lordship Salvation perspective.
Please explain the Lordship Salvation view of the woman who was told her faith saved her (Luke 7:36-50).
-The woman hasn't clearly spoken that Christ is Lord, so she hasn't professed with her mouth.
-It is not enough to experience mere sorrow over sins. This woman is clearly identified in the text as a sinner, which means she hadn't yet physically left her sin.
What the text does tell us is that Jesus recognized that she "loved much". He then forgives her of her sins, yet we have no evidence that she has even asked for forgiveness. Certainly as Lord He saw into her heart, the same as He does with all of us, which is the beauty of how the Lord views the conversion of the sinner versus how we view the conversion of the sinner. We cannot see into the heart and so we look for all sorts of outward manifestations of real conversion. We all agree that a life born again and filled with the Spirit will change, but since we cannot really see into the heart of man we cannot make judgments about who is saved and who isn't. In a Lordship church, this woman would have been viewed as only having sorrow, but since she was still clearly in her sin, and was not even asking for forgiveness, she would not be viewed as repentant.
quote:
You see, salvation and saving faith is more than wanting forgiveness, it's more than wanting heaven, it's being willing to turn from sin and submit to Christ. Yet, beloved, shockingly and I say that advisedly, shockingly there are Bible teachers and preachers in fundamental evangelicalism who do not allow for any connection necessarily between faith and works. And therefore they are forced to receive as genuine virtually every profession of faith because of there's not necessarily a correlation between faith and works, than any profession is a valid one.
Please explain how the thief on the cross who had no evidence of fruit or repentance was told by Jesus he would be with Him in paradise.
The Lordship camp would claim that merely believing or even recognizing is not enough. One must actually literally make Christ the Lord over their life in order for genuine salvation to take place.
quote:
Now public confession in and of itself is not enough. In Matthew 7 the people say, "Lord, Lord, we prophesied in Your name, did many wonderful works," and so forth. "He said, I never knew you." There are those who profess the name who aren't real, but there are none who are real who don't profess the name.
quote:
So, you can see from these verses that there is a faith that doesn't save. There's a faith that's temporary, partial, inadequate. That's different than the faith that saves. John 3:16, the word there "believe", whosoever believes shall not perish, the word "believe" there is the same word in John 2:24 translated "commit...commit." It's something deeper than just believing facts, it's committing one's life, turning fr | | |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
No offence intended again, just being honest. 