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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/17/2007 8:08:18 AM
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floydette
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Stephanos,
When you say "line up with scripture" do you mean that you want to see, in the Bible, a story of this happening to someone? Is this what you mean by "line up with scripture?" Or do you mean "in principle?"
Thanks.
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/17/2007 8:52:26 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 1063
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I'll take these one at a time... Earthless, you said that you feel an especial burden to fight against "chaismania" (my word) specifically because you have seen people hurt by the WoF movement. That indicates to me that you were hurt by seeing these people hurt. Reacting out of hurt is a poison that colors everything from your doctrine to the actual words you use. This is why I mentioned that forgiveness may be in order... and since you didn't disagree, I'll trust that we have digressed into playing semantics rather than actually talking about an issue. I will also tell you now that being labled a heretic is no fun either (yes, this has happened, no it wasn't here, and yes, I did forgive that person later). As for your self-justification, I disagree that your doing what God commanded us to do. God commanded us to A) love Him with our heart, and B) love our neighbor as ourself... these are the greatest two commandments in order. Until we accomplish these two ends, we really have no business saying that we fully follow any of the others.quote:
Shouldn't we therefore, regard as divisive those people who speak out against teachings in the church which are clearly unbiblical? I will answer this question with a conglomeration of ideas and premises from this and other threads... "Does the Bible necessarily condemn anything not found specifically in its pages? As yet, no one has shown the Bible condemning being "slain in the spirit"." This is where my argument rests... until you show that it is actually unbiblical, the argument that it is unbiblical is just smoke and vapor. I would also point out that the idea of correcting people with issues was referring to two specific things that are not being adressed in this thread. First, when the idea of correcting people within the church is raised in the Pauline epistles, it is talking about christians walking in sin. Secondly, it is talking about PEOPLE and not a MOVEMENT. If you have a beef with a specific person (IE, the thread about Mike Bickle) then fine... if in your voicing of opinions you risk estranging a sizable percentage of the church, you need to ask yourself if you would rather be right or be a unifying member of the body.
There is also a specific difference between being Slain in the Spirit and being Saved. No one who actually studies their Bible will tell you that you NEED to be slain in the spirit to be saved... so it doesn't affect your salvation in the slightest. You do not NEED to be slain in the spirit to be accepted into God's Kingdom when Jesus comes back, so it doesn't affect your eschatology. If someone is preaching that you HAVE to be slain in the spirit to be a genuine Christian, then you can freely dismiss that person. However, I have yet to see anyone preach that line of doctrine. All of that is to say that the issue of being slain in the spirit really has no major significance of any kind on the daily christian walk. This firmly removes it from the realm of heresy. If you would care to prove that it is destructive, be my guest... but I would say that that is highly subjective anyway and is not fit for a "logical" discussion.
Wintery:quote:
If you walk out on the street and share Jesus, that's spiritual warfare. If I'm back inside praying for you, that's spiritual warfare. If someone tells you that God told them to tell you to fast fifty days, hand me some bread and pass the mustard, that's baloney--in my opinion and from my best understanding at the present time. I will say that this comment shows, IMO, a blatant misuderstanding of the forty day fast leading up to the Call in Nashville on 07/07/07. Mike Bickle and Lou Engle both felt that the date was significant (as this is the fortieth anniversary of the "Summer of Love", plus the three 7's) and felt that God had called them to fast for that time. They announced the fast and invited any comers to join them. They did not do this with an elitist spirit of "anyone who isn't fasting is a heathen!" If anything, they were doing something God told them to do and asked that if anyone would join them to please do so. As for the "spacey results", who are we to judge the effects of prayer? The problem is that we restrain God to our narrow mindset, and we have no idea that he wants to do something more with our weak little prayers. The prayer in the Prayer Room, has a very specific focus. Our no 1 mandate is the salvation of Israel. Currently, we are also focusing on the ending of abortion and human trafficking in the USA... if these aren't specific enough, then I don't know what will be.quote:
My answer indicates my belief that you were referring to a place of imaginary happenings that certain leaders are known for telling about. It seems the phrase is used as a catch-all blanket over the inquiring mind Fair enough, but I wasn't. Please do not add your emphasis to my words. I actually mean what I actually say.quote:
There are heavenly realms, yes, but today's overly imaginative prophets aren't really riding chariots through portals while demons tremble. I'm sorry, but I must ask who you are to judge a report of a "heavenly vision" or "visitation". The God we serve is the same God who took John and the Apostle Paul to the heavens, translated Jesus on the mountaintop, and showed visions to Jeremiah that left him wasted on the riverbank for 10 days. If this is true, then it is no big thing for God to show a man a vision involving a chariot ride. If you would like to refer to people who abuse the idea of the prophetic, you will find no argument from me... if you refer to EVERYONE who claims to have had a heavenly vision, then you must claim infinite knowledge of who God is and how He acts.... and I'm just not comfortable with that.quote:
Turning the sacred into the frivolous is not wise. Omein... for once I found something to agree with... I'm so excited...quote:
1Corinthians 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
1Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. ...And? Please show me where this contradicts what I have said... I can tell you that it doesn't. While this isn't a thread for the groanings of intercession, I will say that Romans 8 and 1st Corinthians 14 are in the same Bible.... so taking them to the extent that you are is just as unbiblical as the Corinthian church being in the chaos it was.
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Is that for real? I have never seen anything so ridiculous in my life. I would have thought it was someone making fun of Christianity if I had just stumbled upon it. I will simply quote St Paul in saying "For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; or if we are of sound mind, it is for you."
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It is a shame that people can attribute any number of things like this, which were widely reported, to the working of God or thinking that this is drawing near to God. But to wax somewhat prophetic, perhaps it was a judgement on a lukewarm, entertainment-seeking Laodicean church which has abandoned its first love. Before passing a judgement such as the moniker of "Laodicean" on the TACF, please prove it first...
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Adam,
I just have to say your posts are impressively articulate. You really have a gift with words.
That's all I have to say (right now, at least) because I'm just not inclined to join the fray. This particular horse has breathed its last, and as far as I can tell, everyone still maintains the opinion they had at the very beginning of the thread.
Kim Thank you very much Kim... its nice to know somebody thinks that way. I agree, this horse should be buried. It died a page or two ago.quote:
I hate it when I'm sharing a personal experience and someone tells me to prove it. It's my personal experiences and I don't feel that I need or even want to prove anything to anybody. I don't have scripture to back up everything I have seen and experienced in my life, isn’t in large measure what faith is all about? What I have seen and experienced as a Pentecostal believer is in many ways “off the charts”, however it doesn’t mean it not biblical and that I’m not walking a righteous path, and isn’t that between my Lord and I? This is what I would call "spiritual arsenic" to Greek Rationalism.. which for what its worth is what much of the Western church is operating under. While not "evil" in and of itself, Greek rationalism has its limits... the limits of the human mind. I am not trying to proclaim some weird Eastern Mysticism or other spooky doctrine. Rather, I am openly admitting that God is much, MUCH bigger than my mind's capacity to understand Him.
quote:
So do not dare become presumptive and assume that your experiences are the end all to be all of experiences. The difference between us is that I admit to taking my experiences to the bible, and you say you dont need to. Does that not say it all?!?! Easy, tigger... don't bust a capillary. As I mentioned earlier, the experiences we have either supplement, confirm, or contradict scripture. The ones that confirm it are easy to accept (speaking in tongues, laying on of hands, visions, dreams, healings... that lot). The ones that contradict scripture are easy to ignore (seances, necromancy, autonomous writing, etc.). The ones that are a supplement are the ones that get everyone bent out of shape. If something is NOT MENTIONED in scripture, does that necessarily make it evil? The answer should be no. The Bible is in no way an exhaustive list of "Sins and Penances" for humanity. To quote a catholic, "Love God and do whatever you please, because a soul that is taught to love God is taught by that same love to do nothing that might displease Him, and to leave nothing undone that might please Him." So until someone proves that being Slain in the Spirit is actually unbiblical, let that point lay.
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/17/2007 9:46:05 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
I'll take these one at a time... Earthless, you said that you feel an especial burden to fight against "chaismania" (my word) specifically because you have seen people hurt by the WoF movement. That indicates to me that you were hurt by seeing these people hurt. Reacting out of hurt is a poison that colors everything from your doctrine to the actual words you use. This is why I mentioned that forgiveness may be in order...
Anger is more like it. Akin to the righteous anger displayed by Jesus when he whipped and came full force against the money changers (same as these brood of vipers) in the temple. Making merchandise of men.
I have also included a wide array of Scriptural context that shows God commands believers to not only test all things in light of Scripture, but to name names, and warn the brethren of these people.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
and since you didn't disagree, I'll trust that we have digressed into playing semantics rather than actually talking about an issue. I will also tell you now that being labled a heretic is no fun either (yes, this has happened, no it wasn't here, and yes, I did forgive that person later). As for your self-justification, I disagree that your doing what God commanded us to do. God commanded us to A) love Him with our heart, and B) love our neighbor as ourself... these are the greatest two commandments in order. Until we accomplish these two ends, we really have no business saying that we fully follow any of the others
Adam
I will forgive these people when they repent, confess their sins, and turn from said teachings and antics. As for love? It is because of love that I and others are vocal about this.
What you're suggesting is to:
a) turn a blind eye to it all and not care about the damages they are causing. That would be sins of omission. Failing to do what one ought to do.
b) Use the idea that because of love - one doesn't do anything when wrong is being done. That's like patting a loved one on the back as they are walking towards a cliff.. all the time telling them "I love you.." and you know they are seconds from death and you're doing nothing.
Many today believe that it is wrong to expose error and to name names. Liberals have always seemed to believe this, but in recent times it has been widely espoused by evangelicals and charismatics.
Now we are seeing the same fatal error being declared by those who profess to be Bible believing fundamentalists. Those who are faithful in exposing error according to the Bible are now being widely denounced, and are accused of being unloving and unkind.
One of the most misused verses in the Bible is, "Judge not, that ye be not judged." (Matthew 7:1).
Every Scripture verse should be read in its context, if we are to properly understand the true meaning. In verses two through five of this same chapter it is evident that verse one is referring to hypocritical judgment. A brother who has a beam in his own eye should not be judging the brother who may have a mote in his eye. The lesson is plain, you cannot judge another for his sin if you are guilty of the same sin.
Those who cling to "Judge not, that ye be not judged," to condemn those who expose error should read the entire chapter. Jesus said, "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing...".
How can we know false prophets unless we judge them by the Word of God? If we know the false prophets, how can we fail to warn the sheep of these "ravening wolves?"
All through the Bible we find proof that they should be identified and exposed.
"Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit" (16,17).
Did the Lord mean that we could not judge the tree (person), by the fruit of their life and doctrine?
Certainly not, for you cannot know without judging. All judgment should be on the basis of Bible teaching, not according to whims or prejudices.
"Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment." (John 7:24). Here our Lord commands that we are to "judge righteous judgment," which is judgment based upon the Word of God.
If judgment is made upon any other basis, other than the Word of God, it is a violation of Matt. 7:1. Webster's Dictionary says that a judge is "one who declares the law." The faithful Christian must discern of judge on the basis of God's inspired law, the Bible.
To do anything else, especially nothing is sin.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/17/2007 9:52:53 AM
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floydette
Posts: 1082
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
I will forgive these people when they repent, confess their sins, and turn from said teachings and antics.
Forgiveness is our responsibility. It is not to be dependant on the other person's actions or inactions. Whether they confess, repent and turn does not matter when it comes to our decision to forgive.
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/17/2007 10:35:49 AM
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kimonomyhouse
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quote:
Forgiveness is our responsibility. It is not to be dependant on the other person's actions or inactions. Whether they confess, repent and turn does not matter when it comes to our decision to forgive.
God only forgives if we repent. IMO, we should pray for those who have trespassed against us, but forgive as He forgives us for our own trespasses. If we follow His example, forgiveness comes AFTER repentance.
That's not to say we are forbidden to forgive, but from a legalistic POV, it's not a requirement absent repentance.
Allow me to add - I try to refrain from legalism. I'm just trying to make a point here.
Kim
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/17/2007 12:08:09 PM
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Stephanos
Posts: 1118
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From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
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quote:
Easy, tigger... don't bust a capillary. As I mentioned earlier, the experiences we have either supplement, confirm, or contradict scripture. The ones that confirm it are easy to accept (speaking in tongues, laying on of hands, visions, dreams, healings... that lot). The ones that contradict scripture are easy to ignore (seances, necromancy, autonomous writing, etc.). The ones that are a supplement are the ones that get everyone bent out of shape. If something is NOT MENTIONED in scripture, does that necessarily make it evil? The answer should be no. The Bible is in no way an exhaustive list of "Sins and Penances" for humanity. To quote a catholic, "Love God and do whatever you please, because a soul that is taught to love God is taught by that same love to do nothing that might displease Him, and to leave nothing undone that might please Him." So until someone proves that being Slain in the Spirit is actually unbiblical, let that point lay.
First I want to point out that not everyone believes that modern tongues, modern "visions/dreams" are scriptural. But that is another thread.
As far as slain in the spirit. First, there is NO scriptural support for this. If it was biblical, in that the "power" of the spirit in some people would be so strong it would knock other people over, then it would be in the bible. The works of the Spirit would be recorded as such. But it is NOT in the bible. THEREFORE we should take special care to see that it is not completely heretical in nature.
So then we look at it this way. There is NO biblical evidence that we can obtain more "doses" of the spirit as we go along. We are blessed with the Holy Spirit in our lives once. And THAT filling is more than enough, more than effective for the rest of our lives. It does not need to be recharged, refilled, or redone. This is the Spirit of GOD we are talking about. The third part of the Trinity of God. While its actions might be different than the other two, it still has the SAME power and the SAME authority as the other two. So if someone could please show me in the bible and explain to me, how exactly we can get to a point where we need more of it?
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/17/2007 12:55:12 PM
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earthless
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Exactly, Stephanos. And that is one crucial point which I touched upon a bit in this thread and others. How the entire concept of getting more anointing, or that so and so has a double portion of anointing/etc.. is not Scriptural.
Error begets error.
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/17/2007 2:07:43 PM
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Soxfan
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A church I used to attend got into the whole phony signs and wonders movement. I remember being at an evening service and the guest speaker started his "slaying in the spirit" charade. I was asked to be a "cathcer". That's when I realized this was NOT of God and nothing but mass hypnosis. I refused and walked right out the door and never returned.
A few years ago, my current church had a speaker come in and try to pull the same stunt. The pastor grabbed the mic and asked the ushers to politely escort him out of the building.
God is a God of order. If he were in control of this, there would be NO need for "catchers". He would never allow his spirit to come upon someone and allow them to hurt themselves.
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/17/2007 2:09:28 PM
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Soxfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Exactly, Stephanos. And that is one crucial point which I touched upon a bit in this thread and others. How the entire concept of getting more anointing, or that so and so has a double portion of anointing/etc.. is not Scriptural.
Error begets error.
Amen!! I received ALL the filling of the Holy Spirit I needed when I accepted Jesus as my Savior. There are NO additional fillings or anointings to be had. It is a myth perpetrated by the Chrismatic movement
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/18/2007 5:02:30 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
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quote:
Anger is more like it. Akin to the righteous anger displayed by Jesus when he whipped and came full force against the money changers (same as these brood of vipers) in the temple. Making merchandise of men. So you put your anger on the same level as Jesus'? That, my friend, is dangerous territory. Why? Because God is omniscient and knows when anger is and is not worth having. Essentially you are saying that your anger gives you a right to tear down anyone that you think is off-base, and that really worries me.quote:
I have also included a wide array of Scriptural context that shows God commands believers to not only test all things in light of Scripture, but to name names, and warn the brethren of these people. ...and none of which have I disagreed with. You are clinging to those scriptures like your very salvation depends upon it, when they aren't even under fire. I'm saying that we have officially traversed the path of testing them in the light of scripture into the land of personal church preferrences, and that is not kosher. Please remember, as I have said time and again, this topic really has no bearing on your salvation or eschatology... since when is there a lack of "live and let live" in the church? If you really have such an issue, you ask God to release Wisdom and Revelation to the church (as per Ephesians 1:17-19)... that is much more beneficial to all involved then for you to get yourself catagorized a crackpot. All I ask is that you remember to pray FOR people and not ABOUT people.quote:
I will forgive these people when they repent, confess their sins, and turn from said teachings and antics. As for love? It is because of love that I and others are vocal about this. Since we are evolving into a discussion on the sermon on the mount we are to love our enemies... pair that with Love keeping no record of wrongs (1st Corinthians 13) and how can you withold forgiveness from your enemies? First off, Forgiveness is NOT turning a blind eye to a wrong. Forgiveness is the turning over of your anger to God. Turning a blind eye means you just gloss over it and pretend nothing is happening... and I have not advocated this to the best of my knowledge.quote:
b) Use the idea that because of love - one doesn't do anything when wrong is being done. That's like patting a loved one on the back as they are walking towards a cliff.. all the time telling them "I love you.." and you know they are seconds from death and you're doing nothing. No, I am wanting an accurate definition of love. Love wants what is best for others, but it is also patient and kind. And I see neither patience nor kindness toward anyone who advocates something other than your opinion. So rather than saying that you are patting people on the back while they walk towards a cliff, I would say you are patting people on the back who agree with you and attacking anyone that doesn't. We have progressed as a church from simply saying that there are other denominations of the church that disagree with us to saying that everyone else is apostasizing... and the Body needs to be coming together in unity. Can you see what I'm driving at? We are quibbling over something that means absolutely nothing! If it is fake, then it doesn't affect that person's spiritual life in the least... if it is real, then they are getting a touch from God. There is no negative to this.quote:
Many today believe that it is wrong to expose error and to name names. Liberals have always seemed to believe this, but in recent times it has been widely espoused by evangelicals and charismatics.
Now we are seeing the same fatal error being declared by those who profess to be Bible believing fundamentalists. Those who are faithful in exposing error according to the Bible are now being widely denounced, and are accused of being unloving and unkind. A) never have I claimed that it is wrong to expose error. I do say that it is wrong to commit character assasination, but that is beside the point. Here is my point, just because someone has a minor error in their doctrine, you are calling them false teachers, charlatans, and just short of calling them heretics. THAT is unloving and unkind. If you disagree with a theology, fine... but to begin asassinating a person's character for teaching that doctrine goes well beyond examining theology.quote:
One of the most misused verses in the Bible is, "Judge not, that ye be not judged." (Matthew 7:1).
Every Scripture verse should be read in its context, if we are to properly understand the true meaning. In verses two through five of this same chapter it is evident that verse one is referring to hypocritical judgment. A brother who has a beam in his own eye should not be judging the brother who may have a mote in his eye. The lesson is plain, you cannot judge another for his sin if you are guilty of the same sin. True, every scripture is to be understood in it's context. False that Matthew 7:1 is misused. The point being made is that we DO judge something when it is within ourselves. Do not judge, and you will not be judged. For with the same measure you use, it will be measured back to you. That is verses 1 and 2. I don't know about you, but I don't want to get into going over someone's theology with a microscope, simply because I don't want God to do the same thing to me when I meet Him face to face. If the measure I use is the measure I will get, I want to have the broadest measure the Bible will allow me to have. That is why I say that there are certain pillars of christianity that CANNOT be moved, but anything else is debateable safely. Those pillars? The life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, his imminent return to judge wickedness, and Yahweh being the one true God. Anything else can be debated and still be "Christian".quote:
As far as slain in the spirit. First, there is NO scriptural support for this. If it was biblical, in that the "power" of the spirit in some people would be so strong it would knock other people over, then it would be in the bible. The works of the Spirit would be recorded as such. But it is NOT in the bible. THEREFORE we should take special care to see that it is not completely heretical in nature. And as I have said previously, the exclusion of it from the Biblical canon (which it is not, as I mentioned earlier... Solomon and the Temple is a huge example) does not necessarily mean a condemnation by the same.quote:
God is a God of order. Which I have never debated. And never will I debate it. To quote Graham Cooke "God is unpredictable, but he never changes." God is far outside of our boxes... to the point that our connotation of "order" does not match his. If there is no spontanaeity in the Godhead, then there must be a very logical and understandable reason for why God created heaven when he did. I wonder how God would have survived before he created time... I wax sarcastic, but the point is still valid. Until you can claim to know the mind of God fully and truly, then I will believe you that everything he does will fit your mental boxes. Until then, you have not changed my opinion by repeating the same argument over and over again.
I will say this once, hopefully I will be heard. The discussion is dead. Now it is a fight to see who ends up with the last word. So if you will pardon me, I'm going to go bury my horse... right next to the hatchet.
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/18/2007 9:50:51 AM
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earthless
Posts: 5732
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From: where pigeons are getting their sweaters ready....
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Adam,
And that is where we divide on this topic. You view Word of Faith heresies as "minor error". I don't see how it can be minor when the God, the Jesus, the Gospel presented is foreign to Scripture. Falsehoods stuffed into the skin of the truth.
Maybe.. just maybe.. you're not fully aware of what they are teaching and how it is not biblical Christianity.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/18/2007 9:51:35 PM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 1063
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
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quote:
Adam,
And that is where we divide on this topic. You view Word of Faith heresies as "minor error". I don't see how it can be minor when the God, the Jesus, the Gospel presented is foreign to Scripture. Falsehoods stuffed into the skin of the truth.
Maybe.. just maybe.. you're not fully aware of what they are teaching and how it is not biblical Christianity. I made no referrence to Word of Faith in my last comment... so dragging this "discussion" that direction serves no purpose other than to give you a platform you already had to voice opinions you have already stated. Seeing as how this topic is not specifically aimed at the Word of Faith crowd, if I have a desire to more fully search out a specific movement or theology, that's what wikipedia is for. I never said I fully agreed with WoF... I will never agree 100% with anyone or anything else either... If you accurately preach the life, death, and resurrection of Christ along with Yahweh being the only God, then you are biblically sound enough to enter heaven. The salvation of another's soul is our most important goal on this side of eternity. Our spirituality and doctrines are the responsibility of the people who choose to formulate and accept them. Now, there are times I wished that Christianity would host some kind of "church council" like they did at Nicea or Jerusalem... but until there is some major revival going on SOMEWHERE in the church, it would be superfluous anyway. Let me also make it clear, there is much more to the more Charismatic side of church than the WoF movement. As such, to keep harping on the WoF movement is really to make an argument against a small section of the "charismatic movement" that was taking place in the larger part of the world. But like I said, this thread needs to be buried.
Adam
ADam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/19/2007 9:21:49 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2593
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From: Raleigh, NC
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Acts 5:1 - 11 (ESV) 1But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property, 2and with his wife’s knowledge he kept back for himself some of the proceeds and brought only a part of it and laid it at the apostles’ feet. 3But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? 4While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”
5When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and breathed his last. And great fear came upon all who heard of it. 6The young men rose and wrapped him up and carried him out and buried him. 7After an interval of about three hours his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8And Peter said to her, “Tell me whether you£ sold the land for so much.” And she said, “Yes, for so much.” 9But Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.”
10Immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. When the young men came in they found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11And great fear came upon the whole church and upon all who heard of these things.
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/20/2007 12:03:58 AM
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floydette
Posts: 1082
Status: offline
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colliefan, Could you please explain what the point is behind your last post? Thanks.
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/20/2007 3:28:57 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 1063
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
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I will make this simple because I have somewhere to be...
earthless, there are a couple of gaping holes that I must point out... I still hold that this discussion should be buried, but you have raised a couple issues that I feel I should address. As I have said, WoF teachings have been largely discredited for the extremes that they were taken to. As such, I do not agress with the vast majority of WoF doctrine. The "name it claim it, blab it grab it" crowd is using a few verses that speak about the power of words to make several inferences that the Bible itself does not. However, they do not deny Jesus, the Father, or the imminent return of the same. So heretical is catagorically NOT the right word to describe them. As for the Bible itself, it does mention several times when God manifested in several illogical, unscientific ways. Fire falling from the sky, the glory filling the temple to the point that priests cannot minister anymore, the earth opening up to swallow Korah and his family, that kind of thing. The idea that the human rational is "enough" to fully understand what God does in the earth is a large amount of pride that is grossly over-estimating the capability of a sin-cursed being for logic. If you honestly believe that you can understand everything that God does, then attempt to make a scientific explanation of the Hypostatic Union. If you would like some Bible on this, take a look at God's response to Job... "who is this that darkens my council?" "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?" God is a God of order, but imagine if His idea of "order" and ours don't line up perfectly? Either us or God are messing something up, and I'll wager it isn't God.
Greek Rationalism is, in fact, a blessing and a curse to the human mindset. First off, it is a blessing for its achievments in both science and philosophy. However, it is also a curse because it has effectively dulled our minds to the possibility that there might be something that is beyond out understanding. To quote Tozer, "It is a poor science indeed that would hide from us the wonder of nescience..." (Knowledge of the Holy, A. W. Tozer). If your God is small enough to fit into your mind nice and neat, then you and I aren't talking about the same God.
I have presented Biblical examples for my arguments (Solomon dedicating the temple, for one), and I think I have presented some pretty good philosophy on the subject as well. If you are going to make an argument of silence from the Bible (and I only mean to say this one more time), an argument by silence does not NECESSARILY endorse, or condemn, and particular action... silence means just that, silence. If God has nothing to say about it, then why do we? As I said in a previous comment, if being "slain in the spirit" is fake, then it really means nothing to someone's spiritual heading... if it is real, that person is getting a real touch from a real God, and there is no downside to that. If you would like to accuse someone of being a hypnotist, have fun... but that goes well beyond the realm of theology.
Adam
PS, I have actually seen Benny Hinn in person... I did not personally witness any kind of hypnotic suggestion, but the man didn't pray for me either. So if you would like to go accusing him of something, I have little-to-no motivation to participate in that "discussion". If you please, I would like to keep my arguments out of the realm of character assassination.
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I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/20/2007 8:07:18 AM
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earthless
Posts: 5732
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are getting their sweaters ready....
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: floydette
colliefan, Could you please explain what the point is behind your last post? Thanks.
I believe it has to do with my opening thread post, the very first post of this thread. That the only example of "slain in the spirit" found in Scripture is with Ananias and Sapphira - who were killed by the Holy Spirit. That is not something I think the masses would be lining up for.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/20/2007 8:09:55 AM
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earthless
Posts: 5732
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are getting their sweaters ready....
Status: offline
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Adam,
I guess you deem what Jesus and the Apostle Paul and others in Scripture did as "character assassination". I have personally met Benny Hinn and he is a very nice man. But his teachings and false prophecies are the problem at hand. Don't confuse warning the brethren of a publically well known individuals' teachings are "character assassination" or as a way for you to try and curb what ought and needs to be done in an age of crisis in Christianity.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/20/2007 12:06:13 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2593
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: offline
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quote:
I believe it has to do with my opening thread post, the very first post of this thread. That the only example of "slain in the spirit" found in Scripture is with Ananias and Sapphira - who were killed by the Holy Spirit. That is not something I think the masses would be lining up for.
Bingo!
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/22/2007 3:39:05 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 1063
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
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quote:
I guess you deem what Jesus and the Apostle Paul and others in Scripture did as "character assassination". One major difference between what Jesus and St Paul and this... they were attacking people that either A) denied Christ was God, or B) denied the Resurrection. If Benny starts going that route, feel free to go there after him. As I said earlier, if the measure I use is the one I will recieve from God, then I want to have the broadest measure of grace that is biblically allowable. You don't see me trashing people because of being cessationist. I think they are wrong, and I will debate that point heavily with them... but I don't think that person is evil or a heretic. Benny Hinn preaches the power of a risen Christ as the basis for his ministry... which means Benny is giving the glory to God in his meetings. If he was telling people that HE was the one healing them instead of Jesus, then I would have a major problem with him. If something that seems crazy happens in his metings, I can overlook that because he preaches Jesus. So, I would say that what we are doing is MASSIVELY different then what Jesus and Paul did when they called out the "Judaizers" and the Pharisees. Besides, if Jesus was to come in to the forum and be perfectly honest, I think we would ALL be surprised at what he had to say about our doctrine and the way we use it.
Adam
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I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/22/2007 8:01:18 AM
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earthless
Posts: 5732
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are getting their sweaters ready....
Status: offline
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Adam,
Does your point even matter when the Jesus Benny Hinn preaches is a Jesus from anything but the Bible?
Do you need us to present the evidence (audio clips, video clips, documented writings of his own ink, etc) from the Benny Hinn thread?
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/22/2007 12:27:26 PM
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kimonomyhouse
Posts: 60
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
All I have ever spoken against are Word of Faith teachings.
earthless, I can't help wondering why you only speak against WoF. Do not other heretical teachings concern you? I notice you had no comment in the Billy Graham thread, and it seems to me that the idea that one can go to heaven even if they've never heard of Jesus Christ would be at least as important as the doctrine WoF teaches.
Just wondering, that's all.
Kim
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