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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/8/2008 10:49:55 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2089
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Of course atheists are not going to heaven. We are not disputing it, what is under debate is rather – can an already saved person commit a sin of unbelief? Are there some sins that no believer can possibly ever commit? Is atheism or worshipping other gods among them? Are there sins believer commits that the blood of Jesus is powerless to cover?
Everyone falls away in some respect at some point in time.
Sin is sin, and unbelief is under The Blood of Christ Jesus.
Sealed unto The Day of Redemption is sealed forever.
A repentant, humble, contrite heart will not be spurned (David).
Once an elect.......always an elect.......regardless of the sin
Are we talking about what condition someone dies in ?
IOW, will the elect atheist die in a state of unbelief ?
At one time we all were unbelievers, now we believe by grace.
By grace, the elect believer will be led back to acceptance of Christ.
_____________________________
"WHOSOEVER"are the elect-
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 2:24:45 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3438
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
I have the book and read it, and know the quotes, K :) Okay, good. Then you know he teaches those who permanently walk away from Christ, i.e., the atheist can go to heaven. And also that a believer who becomes an unbeliever is still saved. In addition some believers show NO evidence of salvation which translated means fruit and a turning from sin is optional.
So, can we agree that the above is, in fact, the theology taught by FGM?
quote:
So you agree that it is possible that Solomon was saved before becoming (therefore while being) an idol worshipper.How is being an idol worsh. better then being an atheist ? I said we're not told "when" he became saved. But, if he was saved before he became an idol worshipper, he later repented of his sin. Now, if an atheist repented of his sin, sure, the possibility exists he might have been saved "while" being an atheist. But, FGM theology teaches that this atheist need not repent to go to heaven, or, for that matter neither does the idolator. Therefore, whether Solomon was saved, before, during or after salvation is not the point because he did repent of his sin; unlike the atheist who does not repent and dies an atheist.
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If one can be saved and commit the sin of id. worshipping, or denying One and Only God why is being saved and committing the same sin of denying One and only God only by calling it atheism isnt also, at least theoretically, possible? I agree it is possible. But, that is not the issue. The issue is the unrepented idol worshipper, atheist or unbeliever. We can be saved and still commit a terrible sin; but, we cannot be saved if we have no repentance and faith, both of which the atheist, idol worshipper and unbeliever most definitely do not have.
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Are you saying FGM does not teach that if one believes Jesus Christ died for his sins he is saved?
if one truly believes that (not to be confused with mere professing – people can "profess" and "claim" a lot of things, without really believeing 'em) and is born again he is saved by God, from that moment for eternity, correct. That is what I believe the Bible states. What do you object to here? Why would someone “"profess" and "claim" a lot of things, without really believeing 'em)”? Obviously, there examples given in Scripture of those who only “thought” they believed.
I thought you were saying that FGM teaches that no one can tell if he is saved. But, I see now you meant no one can know about the salvation status of someone else. And, to that, I have no objection :) Yes, I would agree that no one can know for certain if another is saved. We have only their works to go by. Just as Paul judged by the "works" of the adulterous man when he excommunicated him.
I don't think the Bible states that "if one truly believes he is born again" that would necessarily mean he was born again. There is biblical evidence that some did "think" they were saved - but, were not. No reason to think it is any different today – many believe they are saved but are not.
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O: repentance is changing attitude towards sin, and turning from it is a proof that we repented. IF someone claims that Christian repentance from certain sin always mean quitting that sin - Mirror is very helpful in such cases....
K : I totally agree with your first sentence; but, not so much with your second. In fact, they seem a little contradictory. Repentence from sin does mean, as you say, "turning from it"; but, it also involves "quitting that sin". If you mean that we may commit that sin again, yes, I can agree we might. That is the Christian life, when we sin we repent and turn from that sin; and, if need be we repeat steps one and two :)
What do we disagree on, K-man, exactly? We both say that repentance means turning from sin, but sometimes we don’t turn. That doesn’t mean we didn’t repent. It takes more then one repent attempt to turn away, some sins we never overcome, nobody dies perfectly sanctified, but still while being a sinner.Explain what is under debate here, please. If we repent of a sin we will turn from that sin. I believe that is what repentance essentialy is. That is what Paul is teaching when he said: “And such were some of you”. There still exists the possibility we may repeat that sin; but, if we have repented that sin will occur less and less frequently. We will not have the same relationship with sin as we did before we became saved.
Say, for example, we lie - a lot. If we repent of that sin, it means we are very sorrowful and abhor that sin. We recognize it is an offense to God. We make every conscious effort not to lie even under somewhat embarrassing circumstances where formally we would naturally lie. That I believe is what repenting from a sin is. Is it possible we might tell another lie?...yes, it is. Still, it is now not the norm for us to do so and we hate it if we do lie.
But, if otoh, we don't much care about stopping our lies and continue exactly as before we professed being "born again"; then, we are probably not saved at all. Therefore, what we "do" is an evidence of our salvation. This is where I disagree with FGM's theology. It teaches that if I do continue to lie, I need not question my salvation because “my faith” is the only criteria. The problem with that is Scripture gives examples of those who “thought” they were saved – but were not. This is why we are told to examine ourselves to make sure of our calling and election and to be certain we are in the faith.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 2:33:59 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3438
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Do you mean one account can "trump" another account? No, I believe all Scripture is perfectly harmonious and there is no contradiction within Scripture.
I think that all the parables still say the same thing, even though neither matt or Mark's account use the word "believe" for the first or second soil. What is the same is what stunts the growth of the plants in the second and third soils.
excellent point, br. FG!
humans are humans. Versions of parables aren’t written by lawyers as a contract, but by regular people,so we cant try to dissect every word but should look at it as a whole.
Especially that former tax collector guy, apostle Matthew’s account – that is a typical IRS employee, allright. His sower story is so generic and brief, you got to use your own imagination to get the full picture.
I agree, parables are not exact; but, they do teach a principle and the prinicple in these parables indicate only one soil is truly saved. In addition, the teaching of the parable must harmonize with the rest of Scripture.
Christ taught about the good and bad trees. Unless, you're willing to say the "bad" trees mean saved people, both the parables and the "good, bad tree" teaching of Christ's are saying the same thing. In addition, to the teaching found in James concerning work and faith it all adds up to fruit is a product of salvation without which we remain the "bad tree" - no matter how much we "think" we have faith.
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Fruit, if we look at it closely, is always present in a true believer, all on this thread already agreed on that. Acc to Gal.5 faith and love and humbleness,all that etc.are fruit which is and have to be present to a degree once a person truly believes. He is humbled, he loves God and has faith , he truly repents - all that is truly fruit of HS. Actually, that is debatable unless FG has changed his mind from earlier posts. Since this is not what the FGM teaches, how do you claim to be an adherent of this theology?
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But as for evident fruit to others- that can be missing or virtually invisible. That is what basically under debate - how much visible fruit means you are a believer? I don't think that is what's under discussion exactly. Unless someone is living in gross sin, similar to what Paul found in the Corinthian church, we take people at their word. If they say they are truly saved - we believe it. I doubt anyone would ask another person: how often to you read your Bible, how often do you pray, how often do you evangelize, etc.?
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 7:52:07 AM
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tdd1975
Posts: 264
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quote:
Absolutely correct, MM. God has chosen to save believers.
God has concluded all in unbelief (Ro 11:32). If had chosen believers then he would have chosen none.
No. He has chosen his elect from the foundation of the world to be rich in faith and to the adoption of sons according to the good pleasure of His will. Not according to the good pleasure of sinful fallen man's free will that is driven by a hard heart that is at enmity against God.
_____________________________
In the Red Sea of His own blood, our Redeemer has
drowned the Pharaoh of our sins C H Spurgeon
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 7:57:26 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 1529
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Of course atheists are not going to heaven. We are not disputing it,
Tell FG, then.
quote:
what is under debate is rather – can an already saved
person commit a sin of unbelief?
They can commit any sin there is.
quote:
Are there some sins that no believer can possibly ever commit?
Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?
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Is atheism or worshipping other gods among them?
As a rabbit trail to be chased, but not a continual way of life.
If we take a picture of any saved person at any point in time, none of
us would look like we are saved.
I am talking about a person's overarching witness to his faith throughout
his life.
Do you think a saved person should have a testimony of faith?
quote:
Are there sins believer commits that the blood of Jesus is powerless to cover?
No.
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If you can prove to me Scripturally that there are certain sins
committing which proves that a saved person is not really saved, I would
be very grateful, for I cant find any verses that say that.
Not saying a believer is sinless or there are certain sins they cannot commit.
We are talking about a lifestyle of sin. We are talking about whether a person
has an internal witness of the Holy Spirit or not.
I myself am saying that "once believed" will and does deceive many who
were never born again.
What does "the old has gone, the new has come" mean to you?
What does "we are no longer slaves to sin" mean?
How about if we walk in darkness we do not know him?
And "He knows his sheep and his sheep know him"?
Sayers but not doers are deceived (James). Lip service with no
lifestyle are not ones who know him (Matt. 7).
Even lukewarm is spit out........
A change is wrought in the believer by God himself.
Man-centered salvation with man in total control of his
sanctification is not biblically true, IMO.
My only point about OT saints re: salvation is that they were not
FULLY saved, ie. entered the presence of God in heaven UNTIL
Jesus ascended there and only through Christ.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 8:39:52 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 1529
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Jesus died for everyone, yet we have folk in hell ?
Its man's rejection, not God's selection.
1Jn 2:2.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 8:41:59 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 1529
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quote:
MANNA: Someone might convince themselves
they believe when they actually don't.
Our thoughts can be deceptive. Carnal belief is not really belief at all.
Common ground 
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 9:24:43 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2089
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
Absolutely correct, MM. God has chosen to save believers.
God has concluded all in unbelief (Ro 11:32). If had chosen believers then he would have chosen none.
No. He has chosen his elect from the foundation of the world to be rich in faith and to the adoption of sons according to the good pleasure of His will. Not according to the good pleasure of sinful fallen man's free will that is driven by a hard heart that is at enmity against God.
AMEN tdd !!!
This is the "cart before the horse".
Are we to believe that we choose first ?
Nope, not according to Saint John.
God loves FIRST...1 John 4:19
So, are we to believe we would choose God
before He loved us ? A veritable impossibility.
_____________________________
"WHOSOEVER"are the elect-
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 9:38:05 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5950
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Your belief, not mine...Precisely, you must tell the unsaved in hell that Jesus died for them. Then explain their fate.
Why do you think anyone will try "evangelism" on the unsaved in hell? What would be the point? I am speaking of the here and now. That Christ died for everyone is good news. Or do you disagree that His dying for everyone is good news.
Those are your words...where are they in The Bible ?
You should have read the post immediately before you posted this response. It is #29218, if you need a review of what the Bible says. They aren't my words.
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Is the Good News REALLY for everyone ?
Don't you know the meaning of euangelia? It means "good news". That's Biblical. Review Titus 2:11. It is for everyone.
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Who said ?
The Bible. Again, review my post #29218 for the details.
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Jesus quoted this passage in Isaiah which describes the type of
people who will preached to. Why be specific if it's generically ALL ?
Your error is found in your word "generically". The reformed seem unable to grasp that Christ died specifically for everyone. Christ didn't do anything "generically". That sounds more like a pharmacy thing than the good news of salvation offered to everyone.
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Jesus died for everyone, yet we have folk in hell ?
That is correct. Why do the reformed continue to bring up this false issue of "universalism" when it has been debunked many times? Maybe you should review post #25708, which provides an excellent example of how Christ could die for everyone specifically, yet not everyone will be saved. Let me know what you think of the post when you finish it. Thanks.
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Tell them Jesus died for them. Would you ?
Tell who? The people in hell? How could I? I won't ever be there.
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I am speaking hypothetically about a proclamation in hell.
That's another of the problems with reformed theology. You all have a lot of hypotheticals you just can't get around.
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Tell them Christ died for all men, including them.
The point, dear MM, is that the good news isn't for hell, where it's too late. It's for the here and now, when men can hear the good news and believe it. See Rom 10 for the details.
Why are you so "hung up" on what happens after this life? The whole issue of the gospel is for the living, not for those who have died. You should have known that from the story Jesus gave of the rich man and Lazarus. Please re-focus on the relevant. Thanks.
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Tell them why God's plan failed...
It's very tiring to continue to read such nonsense, when I know that you know better than that.
What is very sad to me is that your hypothetical, presuppositional philosophy (yes, that is exactly what Turretinfan calls Calvinism, just go back and check post #25) thinks such nonsense.
God's plan didn't fail, since Christ did die for everyone. When people end up in hell, it is not because of your perceived failure on God's part, it is because men didn't believe in Him and are condemned for it.
You haven't responded to my question to you about Rom 3:23-25, which clearly demonstrates that the "all who have sinned" crowd is justified freely through (by means of) faith in His blood. That says that all are able to believe, but not that all will believe. Paul most definitely was not a Calvinist in any sense of the word. His writing contradicts your philosophy.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 9:39:06 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2089
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
God has concluded all in unbelief (Ro 11:32). If had chosen believers then he would have chosen none.
And God made a Covenant with some.
Is the Covenant with ALL men ? Can't be !
If God covenanted with all men, then we
must conclude God is a liar. God doesn't
keep His promises if we believe as some do.
An oath declared by God cannot be treated
casually or cavalierly. God is able to perform
what He promised. Or, we cannot believe Him.
If God, by His Holy Name, declared and made
a committment to save 100 % of mankind and
didn't, then He simply cannot be trusted. Also,
this makes God a "HOPEFUL" universalist.
_____________________________
"WHOSOEVER"are the elect-
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 9:40:16 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5950
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Now you are sounding like God made everyone identical (like robots), and He is conducting an AI experiment.
No, I'm not. Seems you just cannot grasp what I say. Everyone having both "on" and "off" buttons isn't being "identical". It's no different that everyone having 2 eyes, 1 nose, 2 arms, 2 legs, 1 head, 2 hands, and 2 feet. I suppose you would call that "identical". 
Everyone DOESN'T have 2 eyes, ears, arms, legs, hands, and feet.
God equipped everyone as He saw fit and as it pleased Him.
OK, how about the "all" that do have? Would you call "all" of them identical? The question remains. I await your answer.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 9:41:38 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5950
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
God chooses only believers, which is "some out of all".
So, God looks into the future, and sees who will believe- then chooses them ? That cannot be what you are suggesting ?
Yes, He chooses only believers for salvation. That is quite clear from John 6:40, as well as 2 Thess 2:13.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 9:45:27 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5950
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
God chooses SOME out of ALL...not potential all.
1 Corinthians 1:26-29 (King James Version)
26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29That no flesh should glory in his presence.
Where is the all in "not many" ?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Again, show me the "ALL" !!!
I would be happy to.
Still waiting...no all in this passage is there ?
As I thought...you simply won't deal with all the passages I provided you in #29218. Christ died for everyone, whether you like it or not. The Bible has stated it many times, very clearly. You need to get used to it.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 9:56:05 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5950
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
I have the book and read it, and know the quotes, K :) Okay, good. Then you know he teaches those who permanently walk away from Christ, i.e., the atheist can go to heaven. And also that a believer who becomes an unbeliever is still saved. In addition some believers show NO evidence of salvation which translated means fruit and a turning from sin is optional.
So, can we agree that the above is, in fact, the theology taught by FGM?
No, actually it is taught in the Bible.
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I said we're not told "when" he became saved.
It is quite clear to most that he was saved before he became king. Just read the account of his coronation.
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But, if he was saved before he became an idol worshipper, he later repented of his sin.
Please provide some shred of evidence for this presupposition. The summary of his life states that "when he was old" his heart was turned from God to worship other gods because of his many wives. There is actually NO evidence that he ever "finally" repented. That is your presupposition only.
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Now, if an atheist repented of his sin, sure, the possibility exists he might have been saved "while" being an atheist. But, FGM theology teaches that this atheist need not repent to go to heaven, or, for that matter neither does the idolator.
From your own lips "once elect, always elect, regardless of the sin". Remember? If not, check out #29226.
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Therefore, whether Solomon was saved, before, during or after salvation is not the point
No, this surely cannot be the point, because it is so confused. What were you trying to say here?
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because he did repent of his sin;
You need to demonstrate some evidence or support for your theory.
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unlike the atheist who does not repent and dies an atheist.
Seems I recall you saying "once elect, always elect, regardless of the sin". Have you changed your mind (repented) of that thought?
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Obviously, there examples given in Scripture of those who only “thought” they believed.
Are you able to provide any texts where it states that people "only thought they believed"? I'll bet you cannot. iow, you are unable to.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 10:00:41 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5950
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
Absolutely correct, MM. God has chosen to save believers.
God has concluded all in unbelief (Ro 11:32). If had chosen believers then he would have chosen none.
Then, you deny John 6:40, which tells us that God gives eternal life to whosoever believes in His Son? It doesn't tell us that God gives faith to some in order to believe in His Son.
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No. He has chosen his elect from the foundation of the world
The key is missing from your statement. We have been chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. That means He has chosen those who have believed in Him. Your philosophy has it all backwards.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 10:12:20 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1751
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
In addition some believers show NO evidence of salvation which translated means fruit and a turning from sin is optional.
No, I would say that is the wrong conclusion. Otherwise : “ Some lame husbands show NO evidence of being real spouses which translated means love, kindness and faiththfullness is optional”
Those who don’t show evidence of salvation might be just bad, immature.. but still believers. Eliot Spritzer is a bad, immature, cheating garbage but still a spouse. It’s not the behavior that determines the state of salvation, but faith and new birth. Many people that live together are nicer to each other then legal spouses- that dosnt mean that based on that evidence we can make assumption they are married.
If someone loves the child, deal with his tantrums and later pays for his college that should doubtlessly indicate that that person must be that kid's parent. However the parenthood is not determined by how "parentish" one act, but if the kid is or is not the man's blood child.
It’s not the fruit that determines the tree, we cant make a determination of salvation status based on good deeds, or something -that-appears-as- fruit or other exterior indicators. It can be deceiving. I made a post to Destiny about my position on it.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 10:24:32 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5950
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Of course atheists are not going to heaven. We are not disputing it,
Tell FG, then.
rw, haven't you been following very closely? She isn't speaking of an atheist who formerly believed here. Of course not all atheists go to heaven, only the ones who formerly believed in Christ will. That bothers you a great deal, though, doesn't it?
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quote:
what is under debate is rather – can an already saved
person commit a sin of unbelief?
They can commit any sin there is.
Do you also agree that such a one is still saved?
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Are there sins believer commits that the blood of Jesus is powerless to cover?
No.
Including the sin of failing to continue to believe?
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What does "the old has gone, the new has come" mean to you?
For me, it speaks of the regeneration that God performs on us. It doesn't speak of the transformation that we are commanded to do, per Rom 12:2.
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What does "we are no longer slaves to sin" mean?
It means we don't have to obey it.
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How about if we walk in darkness we do not know him?
Many believers are ignorant of basic Biblical truth. You misunderstand this passage if you think it means they aren't saved, or that a believer cannot "not know Him".
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A change is wrought in the believer by God himself.
The error is thinking this means a change in lifestyle. It speaks of regeneration, or newness of life to our dead human spirits, not lifestyle. The Bible is full of commands for believers to change their lifestyle.
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Man-centered salvation with man in total control of his
sanctification is not biblically true, IMO.
Since no one on this thread believes that, nor has suggested that, why do you bother bringing it up? It indicates you do not understand the views of others.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 10:35:26 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2089
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
No. He has chosen his elect from the foundation of the world
The key is missing from your statement. We have been chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. That means He has chosen those who have believed in Him. Your philosophy has it all backwards.
WHOA...Believing preceeds God's choice ?
You are re-inventing salvation !!!
Psalm 65:4 (King James Version) 4Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.
1 John 4:19 (King James Version)
19We love him, because he first loved us.
_____________________________
"WHOSOEVER"are the elect-
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 10:38:24 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2089
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
God chooses only believers, which is "some out of all".
So, God looks into the future, and sees who will believe- then chooses them ? That cannot be what you are suggesting ?
Yes, He chooses only believers for salvation. That is quite clear from John 6:40, as well as 2 Thess 2:13.
Like choosing my wife after already married ?
Wait, there is some truth here... 
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"WHOSOEVER"are the elect-
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 10:40:35 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2089
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Now you are sounding like God made everyone identical (like robots), and He is conducting an AI experiment.
No, I'm not. Seems you just cannot grasp what I say. Everyone having both "on" and "off" buttons isn't being "identical". It's no different that everyone having 2 eyes, 1 nose, 2 arms, 2 legs, 1 head, 2 hands, and 2 feet. I suppose you would call that "identical".
Everyone DOESN'T have 2 eyes, ears, arms, legs, hands, and feet.
God equipped everyone as He saw fit and as it pleased Him.
OK, how about the "all" that do have? Would you call "all" of them identical? The question remains. I await your answer.
Sounds like the "L" in a certain bulbous flower...
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"WHOSOEVER"are the elect-
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 10:41:50 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2089
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
God chooses only believers, which is "some out of all".
So, God looks into the future, and sees who will believe- then chooses them ? That cannot be what you are suggesting ?
Yes, He chooses only believers for salvation. That is quite clear from John 6:40, as well as 2 Thess 2:13.
So what does God choose UN-believers for ?
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"WHOSOEVER"are the elect-
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 10:46:08 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2089
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Is the Good News REALLY for everyone ?
Don't you know the meaning of euangelia? It means "good news". That's Biblical. Review Titus 2:11. It is for everyone.
I know what it means, BUT.......
The question is...Is the Good News for everyone ?
It can't be Good News for everyone since the
outcome is not "GOOD" for some people !
It's ONLY "Good News" if everyone gets saved-
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 10:49:33 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2089
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Your error is found in your word "generically". The reformed seem unable to grasp that Christ died specifically for everyone. Christ didn't do anything "generically". That sounds more like a pharmacy thing than the good news of salvation offered to everyone.
Specificity CANNOT be totality !!!
Specificity is LIMITED.......(OOPS... )
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 11:19:59 AM
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FreeGrace
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