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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 1:47:20 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 1953
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
rw, since you struggle so much with your perceived view of some difference between thinking with the mind, and believing with the heart, here are some additional verses that demonstrate that we think AND believe from the heart.
There you go disagreeing with Jesus again !!!
Matthew 22:36-38 (King James Version)
36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38This is the first and great commandment.
Please explain your presuppositional belief
since it is not in agreement with King Jesus- 
_____________________________
The church of Jesus Christ is about Jesus Christ.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 1:55:10 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 1953
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Heart = Mind ?
Hebrews 10:16 (King James Version)
16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Philippians 4:7 (King James Version)
7And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
You were saying... 
_____________________________
The church of Jesus Christ is about Jesus Christ.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 2:03:40 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5047
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Heart = Mind ?
Hebrews 10:16 (King James Version)
16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Philippians 4:7 (King James Version)
7And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
You were saying...
I was saying, read the verses I posted, which explains everything.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 2:11:54 PM
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Conquered
Posts: 108
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quote:
No, I do not admit that. The verse clearly says "all shall be taught of God". In the OT, we know that God's principles and commands were taught to everyone. The passage in John 6 notes that it is those "who have heard AND learned from the Father, come to Me". Here is the point: ALL have been taught, but ONLY those who actually paid attention and learned come to Christ.
He taught to the Assryians? The Babylonians? The South American tribesman who had no outside contact until the 20th century? These were his chosen people too? That's not what the OT texts suggests at all.
So taking your argument outward: Since have all have been taught and since only those who paid attention and learned come to Christ, then we do not have Christ by faith alone but by a special merit, by works. And since by a special merit, therefore Jesus' work on the cross needs your choice along with his glorious death to save you from your sins.
That is certainly not the point of Scripture.
quote:
2 Chron 33:10 "they paid no attention"
Neh 9:17 "refused to listen, did not remember, became stubborn"
Neh 9:24 "did not listen to commandments"
Prov 1:24-32 "I called, you refused, no one paid attention"
Jer 6:17 "we will NOT walk (in the good way)"
Jer 13:10 "refused to listen
Jer 26:5-6 "you have not listend
Jer 35;15 "have not incluned your ear or listened to Me"
Jer 36:31 "they did not listen"
Jer 44:16 "we are NOT going to listen to you"
Ezek 3:7 "house of Israel will NOT be willing to listen to Me"
Zeph 3:2 "heeded no voice, accepted no instruction, did not trust in the Lord"
Zech 1:4 "they did NOT listen to Me"
Isa 5:12 "they do NOT pay attention to the deeds of the Lord"
Free, you need to pay attention to the context and audience of what you are quoting....
It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children...-Romans 9:6-7a
Abraham is our father," they answered. "If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would do the things Abraham did. As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41You are doing the things your own father does." - John 8:39-41
Choice only exists insofar as you have the capacity to choose. Dead men do not choose life because they cannot choose. If you say we are not dead in our sins then you are forced to embrace a flavor of pelagianism.
< Message edited by Conquered -- 5/10/2008 2:20:19 PM >
_____________________________
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. - John 15:16
www.desiringgod.org
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 5:14:11 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5047
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Conquered
quote:
2 Chron 33:10 "they paid no attention"
Neh 9:17 "refused to listen, did not remember, became stubborn"
Neh 9:24 "did not listen to commandments"
Prov 1:24-32 "I called, you refused, no one paid attention"
Jer 6:17 "we will NOT walk (in the good way)"
Jer 13:10 "refused to listen
Jer 26:5-6 "you have not listend
Jer 35;15 "have not incluned your ear or listened to Me"
Jer 36:31 "they did not listen"
Jer 44:16 "we are NOT going to listen to you"
Ezek 3:7 "house of Israel will NOT be willing to listen to Me"
Zeph 3:2 "heeded no voice, accepted no instruction, did not trust in the Lord"
Zech 1:4 "they did NOT listen to Me"
Isa 5:12 "they do NOT pay attention to the deeds of the Lord"
Free, you need to pay attention to the context and audience of what you are quoting....
I suggest you pay attention to the point. When people don't hear or see, it is because they refuse to listen or pay attention. Those are choices freely made.
quote:
Abraham is our father," they answered. "If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would do the things Abraham did.
If they were Abraham's children, they would have paid attention. 
quote:
Choice only exists insofar as you have the capacity to choose. Dead men do not choose life because they cannot choose.
What do dead men have to do with this discussion? Reformed theology misunderstands the issue in being spiritually dead.
The point of Eph 2 is not about function as the reformed erroneously think. Rather, it is about position. Unbelievers are dead in their sins, meaning separated from God, while believers are alive with Christ.
Adam is a good example of a newly unregenerate person who was fully able to respond to the Lord. He was aware of his new condition and was embarrassed by it, which is why he hid from the Lord. When the Lord asked him questions, he answered them. So much for reformed theology's understanding of being "dead in sins". 
quote:
If you say we are not dead in our sins then you are forced to embrace a flavor of pelagianism.
Please see above. I embrace the Bible, not calvinism or pelagianism.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 6:00:41 PM
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Destiny7777
Posts: 22
Joined: 5/2/2008
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quote:
I'm not sure what you are looking for in v.18-30. Seems clear that Paul notes that the gospel is foolish to Greeks, in that they couldn't grasp that God could die, and a stumbling block to the Jews, who considered Jesus a blasphemer, claiming to be God.
The word "called" means an invitation, not a choosing, as some think. The gospel is an invitation to believe.
If you were looking for something else, please clarify. Thanks. Sorry my previous post was unclear. I guess in this type of forum it's easy to post something and assume that others will understand what you're thinking and seeing. I'll try to be more specific. I'll point out what I see in the text and then maybe you could comment on it.
I Corinthians 1:22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
In these 2 verses Paul is saying that for both Jews and Greeks the gospel is unacceptable for various reasons (that you pointed out in your response). Neither group was able to believe such "foolishness". Verse 24 begins BUT to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks.......
It seems that there is a distinction made between the Jews and Greeks in general and the Jews and Greeks who were "called". (Sorry if I am not using the right words to describe this here). Because to those who were "called" the message of Christ was the "power of God and the wisdom of God" and not foolishness.
Then Paul goes on to say what was highlighted earlier in Manna's question...
26 Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things--and the things that are not--to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.
Are these verses saying that it is the "calling" that makes the gospel believeable?
Please ask for more clarification if I still am not being clear and I can try again. Thanks
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 7:06:08 PM
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futuremartyr
Posts: 39
Joined: 4/4/2008
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
I'm not sure what you are looking for in v.18-30. Seems clear that Paul notes that the gospel is foolish to Greeks, in that they couldn't grasp that God could die, and a stumbling block to the Jews, who considered Jesus a blasphemer, claiming to be God.
The word "called" means an invitation, not a choosing, as some think. The gospel is an invitation to believe.
If you were looking for something else, please clarify. Thanks.
define "couldn't grasp"?
_____________________________
http://www.teachableheartsathome.blogspot.com/
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 8:22:37 PM
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Conquered
Posts: 108
Joined: 6/18/2005
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quote:
I suggest you pay attention to the point. When people don't hear or see, it is because they refuse to listen or pay attention. Those are choices freely made.
There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. -Romans 3:11
That doesn't sound like the product of someone who has the ability to make a free choice. And if the inspired writer says that not a single human understand or seeks God, that doesn't say much about the possibilty that humans are able to make "free choices."
It's about capacity.
Who is the one not listening here?
quote:
What do dead men have to do with this discussion? Reformed theology misunderstands the issue in being spiritually dead.
The point of Eph 2 is not about function as the reformed erroneously think. Rather, it is about position. Unbelievers are dead in their sins, meaning separated from God, while believers are alive with Christ.
It has everything to do with this discussion. Again, if one is dead they cannot choose, they cannot do anything unless they have life.
IOW, here's a catchy slogan for you: Dead men don't choose.
So dead means dead in Eph 2, in the fullness of what dead means. Like Lazarus from the grave, you don't walk out of the tomb until God says "Come forth!"
And if you are separated from God, you are dead. You are unable to choose God. You are unable to please God. This is one reason why Jesus said "Apart from me you can do nothing." This would include the idea of making the cross of Christ powerless and impotent until your choice is added to it.
_____________________________
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. - John 15:16
www.desiringgod.org
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 8:47:59 PM
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Conquered
Posts: 108
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Adam is a good example of a newly unregenerate person who was fully able to respond to the Lord. He was aware of his new condition and was embarrassed by it, which is why he hid from the Lord. When the Lord asked him questions, he answered them. So much for reformed theology's understanding of being "dead in sins".
Adam is a terrible example. He wasn't born into sin. Adam wasn't unregenerate when he was created. He was sinless. You and I were born into sin because of the curse that he brought through his truly free choice. But we don't have that choice before us, but if we did, we'd do the same as he did.
You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly -Romans 5:6 (emphasis mine)
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned - Romans 5:12
_____________________________
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. - John 15:16
www.desiringgod.org
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 8:54:27 PM
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Aphobos
Posts: 669
Joined: 8/22/2006
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Conquered,
Very well said. The Arminian thinks of fallen man as being spiritually sick, infirm, even unto death. He is so ill, in fact, that he is unable to move or so much as lift a hand. The life-giving medicine is within arm's reach, yet he cannot take hold of it. Someone else must poor the elixir onto a teaspoon, place it gently to his lips, and encourage him: "Drink this, dear child, and live."
Yet the Arminian is not dead. He alone must decide to ingest the medicine. He can still refuse. If it is poured into his mouth, he is able to spew it out. The sick man must choose to take the medicine of life. Everything hinges on his decision. Without man's decision, the medicne itself is powerles to save.
As your post makes clear, the Bible depicts fallen man not as spiritually sick but as spiritually dead. Nothing short of a spiritual resurrection is called for in order for the dead man to live. And just as Lazarus was called forth quite apart from his own will or effort, so fallen man is quickened from his spiritual death by the effectual call of Almighty God. Soli Deo Gloria!
In Him,
~Aphobos
< Message edited by Aphobos -- 5/10/2008 9:04:45 PM >
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 10:04:40 PM
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Conquered
Posts: 108
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Nothing short of a spiritual resurrection is called for in order for the dead man to live. And just as Lazarus was called forth quite apart from his own will or effort, so fallen man is quickened from his spiritual death by the effectual call of Almighty God. Soli Deo Gloria!
Very well put yourself.
quote:
The Arminian thinks of fallen man as being spiritually sick, infirm, even unto death. He is so ill, in fact, that he is unable to move or so much as lift a hand. The life-giving medicine is within arm's reach, yet he cannot take hold of it. Someone else must poor the elixir onto a teaspoon, place it gently to his lips, and encourage him: "Drink this, dear child, and live."
Not most of them. Just to stick up a bit for some of our brothers.... What you've perfectly described here is the Pelagian or Semi-Pelagian view which views man's depravity as such. Jacobus Arminius rejected the idea that humans were born with anything good in them. The Classic Arminian (CA) does believe that we are dead in sin but that God give all humans prevenient grace, just enough grace to give us the ability to "freely choose" or reject God. They also believe that this is grace It's still off, because it still gives man a tiny bit of claim over his own salvation but at least CAs reject that man is just merely sick in sin.
< Message edited by Conquered -- 5/10/2008 10:11:18 PM >
_____________________________
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. - John 15:16
www.desiringgod.org
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 11:00:55 PM
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tdd1975
Posts: 169
Joined: 2/12/2008
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quote:
Adam is a good example of a newly unregenerate person who was fully able to respond to the Lord. He was aware of his new condition and was embarrassed by it, which is why he hid from the Lord. When the Lord asked him questions, he answered them. So much for reformed theology's understanding of being "dead in sins".
(Genesis 3:7) Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths.
I don't think Adam is very good example for you at all.
Rather than go to God as naked guilty sinners Adam and Eve utilize their new found fallen free will to sew for themselves clothes of self righteousness.
(Genesis 3:8) And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
Nice free will response. They run and hide.
(Genesis 3:10) And he said, "I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself."
Why didn't Adam utilize his glorious free will to immediately respond to the call of God? He sounds more like the man hiding his talent in the ground because he feared than someone willing to obey.
(Genesis 3:11) He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?"
(Genesis 3:12) The man said, "The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate."
And when convicted by the law does the newly fallen free willer automatically concede his guilt? No, he does what we have done with our free will. He trys to lay the blame with God saying "the woman you made did it".
No Free, Adam is not a good example of how men respond. He is the perfect example of one that God sought out.
And God was found of him that sought Him not.
Glory be to Jesus Christ.
_____________________________
In the Red Sea of His own blood, our Redeemer has
drowned the Pharaoh of our sins C H Spurgeon
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/11/2008 6:39:51 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5047
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Destiny7777
quote:
I'm not sure what you are looking for in v.18-30. Seems clear that Paul notes that the gospel is foolish to Greeks, in that they couldn't grasp that God could die, and a stumbling block to the Jews, who considered Jesus a blasphemer, claiming to be God.
The word "called" means an invitation, not a choosing, as some think. The gospel is an invitation to believe.
If you were looking for something else, please clarify. Thanks. Sorry my previous post was unclear. I guess in this type of forum it's easy to post something and assume that others will understand what you're thinking and seeing. I'll try to be more specific. I'll point out what I see in the text and then maybe you could comment on it.
I Corinthians 1:22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
In these 2 verses Paul is saying that for both Jews and Greeks the gospel is unacceptable for various reasons (that you pointed out in your response). Neither group was able to believe such "foolishness". Verse 24 begins BUT to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks.......
It seems that there is a distinction made between the Jews and Greeks in general and the Jews and Greeks who were "called". (Sorry if I am not using the right words to describe this here). Because to those who were "called" the message of Christ was the "power of God and the wisdom of God" and not foolishness.
Then Paul goes on to say what was highlighted earlier in Manna's question...
26 Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things--and the things that are not--to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.
Are these verses saying that it is the "calling" that makes the gospel believeable?
Please ask for more clarification if I still am not being clear and I can try again. Thanks
Thanks for the clarification. The Greek word for "called" is kletos, and is translated "called/invited". I see those who are "called" as simply those who have been invited to believe the gospel.
In this passage, you bagan with v.22, but I think v.21 is significant. "For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the messge preached to save those who believe." Throughout Scripture we read that our salvation (Eph 2:8), justification (Rom 3:23-25), forgiveness (Acts 10:43) and possession of eternal life (John 6:40) is based on faith. iow, we have these things because of our faith.
My disagreement with reformed theology is that they think God chose who would believe, though they never state it that way. But their view of election is just that; God chooses who will believe, and then gives them salvation, justification, forgiveness, eternal life, and, oh, by the way, the faith to believe.
Yet Scripture is very clear; faith is the means of all of these things.
So, to answer your question, I don't think the "calling" has anything to do with making the gospel believable. Titus 2:11 says "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men". That's real clear. I think the invitation to believe the gospel is made to all men. Some respond to the "call", many don't.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/11/2008 6:41:09 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5047
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: futuremartyr
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
I'm not sure what you are looking for in v.18-30. Seems clear that Paul notes that the gospel is foolish to Greeks, in that they couldn't grasp that God could die, and a stumbling block to the Jews, who considered Jesus a blasphemer, claiming to be God.
The word "called" means an invitation, not a choosing, as some think. The gospel is an invitation to believe.
If you were looking for something else, please clarify. Thanks.
define "couldn't grasp"?
Couldn't accept.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/11/2008 6:57:55 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5047
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Conquered
quote:
I suggest you pay attention to the point. When people don't hear or see, it is because they refuse to listen or pay attention. Those are choices freely made.
There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. -Romans 3:11
That doesn't sound like the product of someone who has the ability to make a free choice.
If you would pay attention, you might see my point. Rom 3:11 is referring to the fools, which Paul was quoting from Psa 14 and 53.
quote:
And if the inspired writer says that not a single human understand or seeks God, that doesn't say much about the possibilty that humans are able to make "free choices."
Please pay attention to the verses I gave re: not paying attention and refusing to listen. Those most certainly ARE free choices.
quote:
It's about capacity.
Who is the one not listening here?
You
quote:
quote:
What do dead men have to do with this discussion? Reformed theology misunderstands the issue in being spiritually dead.
The point of Eph 2 is not about function as the reformed erroneously think. Rather, it is about position. Unbelievers are dead in their sins, meaning separated from God, while believers are alive with Christ.
It has everything to do with this discussion. Again, if one is dead they cannot choose, they cannot do anything unless they have life.
Because you seem to refuse to pay attention, you keep missing my point. Adam was spiritually dead, yet responded completely to the Lord in the Garden. Being spiritually dead speaks of position, as in "dead IN sins", which is contrasted in Eph 2 with being "alive IN Christ", the position of the believer. Adam as a spiritually dead person in need of regeneration, made the choice to hide from the Lord. So don't give me this nonsense that spiritually dead people can't make choices. They do all the time. Adam proves that.
quote:
IOW, here's a catchy slogan for you: Dead men don't choose.
Since Adam has proven you wrong, the slogan isn't catchy. It's wrong.
quote:
So dead means dead in Eph 2, in the fullness of what dead means.
When a person has died, do you think of them as having "ceased to function" or as having "passed away"? Normal people use the phrase "passed away" to describe death, which indicates position, not function. That is how Paul used it in Eph 2. Unbelievers are "dead in their sins", and believers are "alive in Christ". It's a positional thing. Unbelievers are separated from God.
quote:
Like Lazarus from the grave, you don't walk out of the tomb until God says "Come forth!"
Wrong example. John 5:25 says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead shall hear the Son of God; and those who hear shall live." This statement contradicts your theory.
Jesus noted that the dead will hear, and as a result of hearing, will live. So Jesus, along with Adam contradicts your theory. So don't tell me that the dead can't respond.
quote:
And if you are separated from God, you are dead.
That is my point. It is a positional thing, NOT a functional thing.
quote:
You are unable to choose God.
Jesus said the dead will hear and will live. You are wrong.
quote:
You are unable to please God. This is one reason why Jesus said "Apart from me you can do nothing."
Jesus was speaking to believers.
quote:
This would include the idea of making the cross of Christ powerless and impotent until your choice is added to it.
Since it is the cross of Christ that provided the means of our forgiveness and salvation, one's faith has nothing to "add" to it, as you foolishly say. Why do you think that if man believes freely, that would "add" anything to what Christ did? I'm always amazed when the reformed think so.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/11/2008 7:02:29 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5047
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Conquered
quote:
Adam is a good example of a newly unregenerate person who was fully able to respond to the Lord. He was aware of his new condition and was embarrassed by it, which is why he hid from the Lord. When the Lord asked him questions, he answered them. So much for reformed theology's understanding of being "dead in sins".
Adam is a terrible example. He wasn't born into sin. Adam wasn't unregenerate when he was created. He was sinless. You and I were born into sin because of the curse that he brought through his truly free choice. But we don't have that choice before us, but if we did, we'd do the same as he did.
you seem to be having a terrible time paying attention. Adam is a perfect example of a newly unregenerate person. I was using Adam as an example of AFTER he sinned. In his newly unregenerate state, he was making choices. He realized his condition and hid from the Lord. That was a choice. When the Lord called out to him, he answered. So don't tell me that spiritually dead people cannot respond. That is nonsense.
quote:
You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly -Romans 5:6 (emphasis mine)
That is very true, and has nothing to do with this discussion. We are speaking of spiritually dead people being able to respond.
quote:
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned - Romans 5:12
Again, very true, but what is your point with these 2 verses?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/11/2008 7:08:17 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5047
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Aphobos
Conquered,
Very well said. The Arminian thinks of fallen man as being spiritually sick, infirm, even unto death. He is so ill, in fact, that he is unable to move or so much as lift a hand. The life-giving medicine is within arm's reach, yet he cannot take hold of it. Someone else must poor the elixir onto a teaspoon, place it gently to his lips, and encourage him: "Drink this, dear child, and live."
Yet the Arminian is not dead. He alone must decide to ingest the medicine. He can still refuse. If it is poured into his mouth, he is able to spew it out. The sick man must choose to take the medicine of life. Everything hinges on his decision. Without man's decision, the medicne itself is powerles to save.
As your post makes clear, the Bible depicts fallen man not as spiritually sick but as spiritually dead. Nothing short of a spiritual resurrection is called for in order for the dead man to live. And just as Lazarus was called forth quite apart from his own will or effort, so fallen man is quickened from his spiritual death by the effectual call of Almighty God. Soli Deo Gloria!
In Him,~Aphobos
Nice caricature of what Arminians think, but since it appears you haven't been paying attention either, there isn't anyone on this thread who subscribes to what you've just noted. So, what is your point?
I'm not Arminian at all, btw. I suggest you read #29316 for an explanation of what being spiritually dead really means. It has nothing to do with function, and everything to do with position. Let me help you understand this:
Believers are "alive IN Christ".
Unbelievers are "dead IN their sins".
To be "dead in sins" means to be separated from God. It's a positional thing.
Jesus says in John 5:25 that the dead will hear, and as a result, will live. So much for the erroneous theory that spiritually dead people cannot respond.
Adam responded to the Lord after he sinned, and was in need of regeneration.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/11/2008 7:17:49 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5047
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
Adam is a good example of a newly unregenerate person who was fully able to respond to the Lord. He was aware of his new condition and was embarrassed by it, which is why he hid from the Lord. When the Lord asked him questions, he answered them. So much for reformed theology's understanding of being "dead in sins".
(Genesis 3:7) Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths.
I don't think Adam is very good example for you at all.
I wouldn't expect a reformed person to think so, since Adam disproves the erroneous theory that spiritually dead people can't respond.
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Rather than go to God as naked guilty sinners Adam and Eve utilize their new found fallen free will to sew for themselves clothes of self righteousness.
The point was that in their spiritually dead condition, they made choices.
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(Genesis 3:8) And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
Another choice.
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Nice free will response. They run and hide.
I don't know what was particularly "nice" about it, but it most certainly WAS a free will response. And from a spiritually dead person, no less.
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(Genesis 3:10) And he said, "I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself."
More responses from a spiritually dead man. The reformed theory is proven wrong by Adam.
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Why didn't Adam utilize his glorious free will to immediately respond to the call of God? He sounds more like the man hiding his talent in the ground because he feared than someone willing to obey.
He actually demonstrates his understanding that he screwed up big time and was in need of what he didn't have. And how could he respond to the "call of God" since that hadn't happened yet? What a silly question. btw, he did respond to the call of God when God called.  I suggest you pay attention to the passage.
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(Genesis 3:11) He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?"
(Genesis 3:12) The man said, "The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate."
And when convicted by the law does the newly fallen free willer automatically concede his guilt? No, he does what we have done with our free will. He trys to lay the blame with God saying "the woman you made did it".
Yep. Still proving he had free will, though.
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No Free, Adam is not a good example of how men respond. He is the perfect example of one that God sought out.
And God was found of him that sought Him not.
Adam is a perfect example of the FACT that spiritually dead people can and do respond. Which was my point. Please pay attention.
Seems the reformed all suffer from attention deficit disorder around here.
(edited to change 1 "can" to "can't". )
< Message edited by FreeGrace -- 5/11/2008 1:06:41 PM >
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/11/2008 1:58:02 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 1455
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Ah, my dear brother you have struck a chord...
Evidence of the Free Grace Carnal Mindset.
Churches are filled with UN-believers !
I am FIRMLY convinced the mission field is in the pews.
Read Jim Eliff's article "SBC - An unregenerate denomination"
@ http://ccwonline.org/sbc.html.
Funny, the Baptist denom was Calvinistic in theology.
What has happened?
I think we're good at bringing to narrow gate, but not
guiding down the narrow road.
More interested in numbers..
Perseverance has been destroyed by easy believism.
Not God's work in a man, but a decision...Sad.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/11/2008 2:06:27 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 1455
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
No one can come to ME (Jesus)...UNLESS The Father draw him...
John 6:44 (Amplified Bible)...
44No one is able to come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me
attracts and draws him and gives him the desire to come to Me,
and [then] I will raise him up [from the dead] at the last day.
Sounds like some want us to believe that a man can randomly
without direction, guidance, or The Holy Spirit - bumble, fumble,
and stumble his way into the Kingdom of God. Isn't it really saying no one can simply decide to be saved?
That contrary to what FG believes, it is not mere mental assent?
That our initial response to the gospel is through the quickened heart, the good soil?
The soil who is not fertile due to man's pride and rejection?
Does this necessarily mean God's draw isn't for all?
Even though God's clear desire is for all to repent and be saved?
Oh, how he desires to gather them under his wings.......
But they are obstinate and prideful people who have hardened hearts.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/11/2008 3:04:43 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5047
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
No one can come to ME (Jesus)...UNLESS The Father draw him...
John 6:44 (Amplified Bible)...
44No one is able to come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me
attracts and draws him and gives him the desire to come to Me,
and [then] I will raise him up [from the dead] at the last day.
Sounds like some want us to believe that a man can randomly
without direction, guidance, or The Holy Spirit - bumble, fumble,
and stumble his way into the Kingdom of God. Isn't it really saying no one can simply decide to be saved?
That contrary to what FG believes, it is not mere mental assent?
Man both thinks in his heart, and believes in his heart. Scripture says so.
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That our initial response to the gospel is through the quickened heart, the good soil?
There is no support for regeneration preceding faith.
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Does this necessarily mean God's draw isn't for all?
What did Jesus say about going to the cross in John 12:32?
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Even though God's clear desire is for all to repent and be saved?
Since this is clearly true and Biblical, your previous statement cannot be true, or Scripture is contradictory.
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Oh, how he desires to gather them under his wings.......
That very FACT should demonstrate clear enough that man's believing is freely done. If He desires (and Scripture says He does) yet they don't come, the only conclusion is free will to believe.
This is further indicated from Mark 3:5 which says, "He (Jesus) looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts (NIV) or grieved at their hardness of heart (NASB), said to the man, 'Stretch out your hand.' He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored."
Now, can your really accept as true that God is the One who gives man his faith from this verse? If the reformed view were correct, please explain to me why Jesus was "deeply distressed/grieved" at their "stubborn hearts/hardness of heart". | | |
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