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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/12/2008 3:05:14 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3363
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Ah, my dear brother you have struck a chord...
Evidence of the Free Grace Carnal Mindset.
Churches are filled with UN-believers !
I am FIRMLY convinced the mission field is in the pews.
Read Jim Eliff's article "SBC - An unregenerate denomination"
@ http://ccwonline.org/sbc.html.
Funny, the Baptist denom was Calvinistic in theology.
What has happened?
I think we're good at bringing to narrow gate, but not
guiding down the narrow road.
More interested in numbers..
Perseverance has been destroyed by easy believism.
Not God's work in a man, but a decision...Sad.
Excellent article. Precisely what I was saying - the churches are filled with tares; and, the ministers do not preach the whole counsel of God. They preach to what they are incorrectly assuming is a "saved" congregation. And, if that is the case, then the pastors are a problem in and of themselves.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/12/2008 7:24:18 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5692
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Aphobos
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Nice caricature of what Arminians think, but since it appears you haven't been paying attention either, there isn't anyone on this thread who subscribes to what you've just noted. So, what is your point?
If you'll notice, the title of this rather lengthy discussion is 'Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread'. The contrast in my post involves classic Arminian theology. Whether or not anyone here subscribes to it is irrelevant. It is possible to discuss a view without holding it personally, is it not?
What is your point since no one on this thread believes what you've presented? Kind of like making a speech to an empty auditorium. To each his own.
[quoe]quote:
I'm not Arminian at all, btw. I suggest you read #29316 for an explanation of what being spiritually dead really means. It has nothing to do with function, and everything to do with position.
I did not accuse you of being Arminian. Again, I was merely presenting material that is directly within the scope of this thread. If you don't want to compare or contrast Calvinism and Arminianism, I suggest you find another thread. Moreover, I find it odd that you (not being an Arminian) are so easily offended by a presentation of that theology.
Not offended at all. btw, why did you ignore my comment about what being spiritually dead means? Did you bother reading the post? If you really want to participate on this thread, you need to engage the topics being posted.
[quoe]quote:
Let me help you understand this:
Believers are "alive IN Christ".
Unbelievers are "dead IN their sins".
While I agree that the prepositional aspect of the passage is of great import, I think you over-state it.
You are quite free to think anything you want to.
quote:
The text says that while we were dead in sin, God made us alive in Christ.
Yes, it does. And the main point in the chapter is about position, not about function, as the reformed think.
quote:
Being brought to spiritual life involved the act of God on a spiritual corpse. Before we could ever be "in Christ," God had to make us alive.
That is in error. Jesus contradicts you in John 5:25, where He said "the dead shall hear, and will live".
quote:
quote:
Jesus says in John 5:25 that the dead will hear, and as a result, will live. So much for the erroneous theory that spiritually dead people cannot respond.
Not at all. The reason why the dead will hear is because they will be made to hear. That is precisely what the Greek communicates. First, the dead will hear (Gk. oi nekroi akousousin). The verb akousin is in the future tense. The dead do not presently hear. Second, not all the dead will hear. Christ follows immediately by saying, "and all who hear will live" (v. 25b).
Quite a twist to the Scriptures. The point is that the DEAD WILL HEAR, not the living. And as a result of the DEAD hearing, they will LIVE. Your theory of the dead not being able to respond is contradicted by Scripture.
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Obviously, there are many who are still dead in sin.
OK. So, what is your point? Jesus never said ALL of the dead will hear. He said the dead will hear. I don't see "all" in the verse.
quote:
What you'd like the text to say is that everyone will hear, and that only those who make a good decision will live.
Just read my response above and you will see that your conclusion is totally wrong.
quote:
Yet that is completely foreign to the text. Though the gospel message goes out to all the dead, only some of them will hear (having been made alive by the Spirit).
You've got your tenses all mixed up. It is the DEAD who will hear. They haven't yet been "made alive" as you erroneously state. Pay attention to the text.
quote:
The Spirit gives life;
After the dead have heard.
quote:
Finally, let us not forget Jesus' statement only four verses prior to John 5:25. "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it."
The point remains that it is the DEAD who are hearing. Life is given after they hear, which obviously means they believed what they heard. Similar concept in Rom 10.
quote:
Here again is the Lazarus comparison. It was not invented by Calvinists as a proof-text to support their theology of regeneration. God makes the analogy Himself! Just as He raises people from the dead, so the Son. Just as Christ called Lazarus forth from the grave -- totally apart from the dead man's cooperation or consent -- so are we brought to spiritual life in Him.
Interesting. I recall one of the reformed saying that Lazarus came out because he had been given life in which to hear the command of Jesus. So, what is it? Do the living hear, or the dead hear? You can't have it both ways.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/12/2008 7:56:46 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 1452
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
The relationship is intact even though there may be no fellowship between the two.
I can have a father (genetic), but have no father (relational).
He knows his sheep and his sheep know him.
quote:
My ONLY emphasis is on what one
has believed, not claimed to believe.
Why can't you get this straight?
I've had to correct you many times, and here I am,
doing it again. What's with that?
Because the what we believe has side effects, all knowing one. 
Still want to know you are saved only by thinking you believe?
Or by the effect grace has had on your heart and mind?
quote:
To say "when we are saved by a doctrine" demonstrates your confusion.
Oh, no it doesn't, FG.
Decisionism saves nobody, and our evangelism is rife with it.
Believing is not just mental assent.
OSAS was based on Perseverance doctrine - look at what it has
produced: Many deceived running around proclaiming they are
saved, only they forget God is the author of their faith.
quote:
We are saved only by God, through faith in His Son.
Can you understand this?
Only as one born again who sees it as radical change,
not one believing in his mind only.
quote:
Regeneration IS permanent.
Why do you continue to think that I think otherwise?
That's not what I think.
I think is you are wrong in believing regeneration
may or may not result in lifestyle change.
Sorry, but it is my presupposition as a born again believer
that being saved is a radical thing and a work of God, not
intellectual assent and live anyway you want.
As I said Heb 11 cries out that faith is more than mental.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/12/2008 8:08:55 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 1452
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
I have concluded man simply cannot be confident they know him
based on what they supposedly "believe". This is why the Bible says
we must believe in our heart, and not just our mind (Rom 10:9).
rw, Luke 5:22 says "Jesus knew what they (Pharisees) were thinking, and asked, 'Why are you thinking these things in your hearts?'"
This indicates that we think in our hearts, which is also called the mind. We believe from the heart, per Rom 10:10, so I conclude that our believing and our thinking all comes from the same area.
Where is the heart also called the mind?
We think with our heart mind, but in different ways.
And then there is spiritual knowledge......
If heart and mind were the same, then why
"Love the Lord with all your heart, mind, soul and strength......"
Sorry, but heart-know and mind-know ARE different.
That is the meaning of Rom 10:9. Paul lost the men of Athens
when he spoke of resurrection - their logical minds rejected it.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/12/2008 9:24:57 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Bee, there is no disputing that no one was in heaven before Jesus ascended.
UMCBEE: Yes , there is plenty to dispute that .
What?
Gen 5:24 > And Enoch walked with God : and he was not ; for God took him .
2 Kings 2:11 > And it came to pass , as they still went on , and talked , that , behold , there appeared a chariot of fire , and horses of fire , and parted them both asunder , and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven .
Both Enoch and Elijah were taken into heaven without dying ; why would you think they were the only two there ? Where could paradise or Abraham's bosom possibly be located other than heaven ?
Then what does John 3:13 mean? There was a person in
heaven even though he said there wasn't?
John 3:13 means the same as Deut 30:12-14 > It is not in heaven , that thou shouldest say , Who shall go up for us to heaven , and bring it unto us , that we may hear it , and do it ? Neither is it beyond the sea , that thou shouldest say , Who shall go over the sea for us , and bring it unto us , that we may hear it , and do it ? But the word is very nigh unto thee , in thy mouth , and in thy heart , that thou mayest do it .
quote:
I suggest they went to a holding place like paradise for the thief.
And where do you think paradise was located ?
quote:
No , just trying to show how hard it is to carry
on a theological debate when someone does not
understand the elementary doctrines .
quote:
Like sanctification?
That would be one .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/12/2008 9:30:04 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Since I have successfully defended the fact that Christ died for everyone, how in the world could you even suggest that the gospel is limited in scope?
Because Paul says it by The Holy Spirit ???
God chooses SOME out of ALL...not potential all.
1 Corinthians 1:26-29 (King James Version)
26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29That no flesh should glory in his presence.
Where is the all in "not many" ?
So you say the majority of the wise and mighty and noble have no chance for salvation ? What a pitiful gospel that is .
I am not saying anything...what did you think I said ?
Feeling contentious about Paul's words...???
God has chosen...God has chosen...God has chosen...
to confound...to confound...
Again, show me the "ALL" !!!
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God , it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe . God will save all them that believe .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/12/2008 9:40:17 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
It says not many wise according to the flesh , not many mighty , not many noble , are called . But first Paul said "For you see your calling , brethern , that " : meaning that not many of the Corinthians called (which means invited) that Paul was writing too were wise according to the flesh , nor mighty , nor noble . It is a statement to a local church , not a sweeping theological statement to all mankind . And it could very well be said that it was "not many answered" the call ; it no where says "not many called period " : which it would have to say for manna's and your interpretation to make sense .
This only serves to prove the point yet again...
The Corinthians are just a microcosm.
IOW, not even "ALL" of the Corinthians could be saved !!!
Eiither way ALL Corinthians were neither called, nor saved.
There is no indication whatsoever that all of Corinth could be saved.
There is no indication whatsoever that all Corinth could not be saved .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/12/2008 9:43:20 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 1985
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
God has chosen...God has chosen...God has chosen...
to confound...to confound...
Again, show me the "ALL" !!!
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God , it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe . God will save all them that believe .
Nope...you have added something !!!
What you say is NOT in the text.
Rather, God has chosen is...three times !!!
27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
_____________________________
"WHOSOEVER"are the elect-
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/12/2008 9:45:54 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Destiny7777
The discussion on the passage from I Corinthians prompted me to go back and read the entire passage. Quite fascinating, and while I appreciate the "All" passages quoted by FreeGrace in response, I - like Manna I think - am very interested to know how umcbee and FreeGrace understand THIS particular passage, (especially the highlighted portions). Thanks in Advance
I Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. 26 Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things--and the things that are not--to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.
I think FG gave you a very good answer to your question . I would only add that most reformed equat that all who are called are saved : however Jesus states For many are called , but few are chosen .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/12/2008 9:48:25 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
God has chosen...God has chosen...God has chosen...
to confound...to confound...
Again, show me the "ALL" !!!
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God , it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe . God will save all them that believe .
Nope...you have added something !!!
What you say is NOT in the text.
Rather, God has chosen is...three times !!!
27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1 Cor 1:21 answers perfectly what God has chosen .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/12/2008 10:02:31 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Some refuse to accept God's declarations and
proclamations that He has definitive limits...
Not regarding His abilities, faculties, or powers-
it would be foolish to spout off such gibberish,
rather God operates in a way that pleases and
glorifies Him, but man's pride sees it differently.
Who disagree's with this ?
quote:
A few examples of God's LIMITING:
---Noah saved, others drowned
---Israel favored over rest of world
---Abraham called out of Mesopotamia
---Lot escapes from Sodom
---Joshua & Caleb enter Canaan
Noah was righteous the others were not .
Israel for the special purpose to bring God's word to the world .
Abraham called to be the father of many nations , along with Israel .
With Lot , the Lord knows how to deliever the righteous .
The rest did not enter Canaan because of unbelief .
quote:
Some men are revolted and reviled by God's choice
to do what He wants with His creation.
Some men don't understand what God's choice's entail .
quote:
God is under no obligation to do anything.
God has obligated Himself through covenant .
quote:
God is not conflicted.
Who says He is ?
quote:
God is not tormented by all those who are hellbound.
God says that He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/12/2008 1:05:34 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5692
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
The relationship is intact even though there may be no fellowship between the two.
I can have a father (genetic), but have no father (relational).
Are you agreeing or disagreeing about the fact that one who has a father (DNA) might not have fellowship with his father? Your statements are confusing.
quote:
He knows his sheep and his sheep know him.
Yes, that is a true statement. But you haven't dealt with the issue of fellowship in a relationship. Since you didn't deal with parent-child, how about spouse? Can you understand that though married (relationship) the husband and wife might not enjoy fellowship? That is the point. If you can grasp this, you should be able to grasp what I've said regarding believers and God. If not, then there really isn't any point in further discussion.
quote:
quote:
My ONLY emphasis is on what one has believed, not claimed to believe.
Why can't you get this straight? I've had to correct you many times, and here I am, doing it again. What's with that?
Because the what we believe has side effects, all knowing one.
The "side effect" as you call it is regeneration, which isn't lifestyle, but change as in DNA.
quote:
Still want to know you are saved only by thinking you believe?
There's no other way to know what you believe if you check your brain somewhere else. I have shown verses where Jesus noted that men think in their heart, so why are you having so much trouble with this?
quote:
quote:
To say "when we are saved by a doctrine" demonstrates your confusion.
Oh, no it doesn't, FG.
Decisionism saves nobody, and our evangelism is rife with it.
I'm not talking about the errors of today's Christianity. I speak only of what the Bible says. So, we aren't saved by any doctrine. We are saved by believing the gospel, which is God's Word. You have read His Word. Do you believe it or not? That is the issue in salvation.
quote:
Believing is not just mental assent.
Please tell me what else in involved in believing. And please also provide some support for your view. Thanks.
quote:
OSAS was based on Perseverance doctrine - look at what it has
produced: Many deceived running around proclaiming they are
saved, only they forget God is the author of their faith.
OSAS has nothing to do with getting sidetracked regarding the author of one's faith. I don't know what your point is here. Please clarify.
quote:
quote:
We are saved only by God, through faith in His Son. Can you understand this?
Only as one born again who sees it as radical change, not one believing in his mind only.
You keep placing emphasis on what you do when the emphasis on what Christ did for you, and whether or not you believe it. But, since you don't believe what the Lord said in Luke 8 about some (saved) believers losing their faith and not producing fruit, what's the point in further discussion. You aren't even believing what the Bible says, imo.
quote:
Regeneration IS permanent. Why do you continue to think that I think otherwise?
That's not what I think. I think is you are wrong in believing regeneration
may or may not result in lifestyle change.
Just read the words of Jesus. That's where my view comes from.
quote:
Sorry, but it is my presupposition as a born again believer that being saved is a radical thing and a work of God, not intellectual assent and live anyway you want.
I too am sorry that you harbor presuppositions. That seems to be your problem with texts you reject. btw, why do you continue to suggest that I think one can "live anyway you want" when I've been real clear. Are you not paying attention either?
quote:
As I said Heb 11 cries out that faith is more than mental.
More what? Physical? What do you mean?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/12/2008 1:07:32 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5692
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
I have concluded man simply cannot be confident they know him
based on what they supposedly "believe". This is why the Bible says
we must believe in our heart, and not just our mind (Rom 10:9).
rw, Luke 5:22 says "Jesus knew what they (Pharisees) were thinking, and asked, 'Why are you thinking these things in your hearts?'"
This indicates that we think in our hearts, which is also called the mind. We believe from the heart, per Rom 10:10, so I conclude that our believing and our thinking all comes from the same area.
Where is the heart also called the mind?
We think with our heart mind, but in different ways.
And then there is spiritual knowledge......
If heart and mind were the same, then why
"Love the Lord with all your heart, mind, soul and strength......"
Sorry, but heart-know and mind-know ARE different.
That is the meaning of Rom 10:9. Paul lost the men of Athens
when he spoke of resurrection - their logical minds rejected it.
Why do you reject what Jesus says. He indicates that man thinks with his heart, and we all know that we think with our minds, so what's your problem?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/12/2008 1:44:57 PM
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tdd1975
Posts: 247
Joined: 2/12/2008
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quote:
Thanks for the clarification. The Greek word for "called" is kletos, and is translated "called/invited". I see those who are "called" as simply those who have been invited to believe the gospel.
In this passage, you bagan with v.22, but I think v.21 is significant. "For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the messge preached to save those who believe." Throughout Scripture we read that our salvation (Eph 2:8), justification (Rom 3:23-25), forgiveness (Acts 10:43) and possession of eternal life (John 6:40) is based on faith. iow, we have these things because of our faith.
My disagreement with reformed theology is that they think God chose who would believe, though they never state it that way. But their view of election is just that; God chooses who will believe, and then gives them salvation, justification, forgiveness, eternal life, and, oh, by the way, the faith to believe.
Yet Scripture is very clear; faith is the means of all of these things.
So, to answer your question, I don't think the "calling" has anything to do with making the gospel believable. Titus 2:11 says "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men". That's real clear. I think the invitation to believe the gospel is made to all men. Some respond to the "call", many don't.
You are twisting this scripture big time. Just as with Bee, if the text said not many responded you might have a point but it most definately doesn't say that.
23but we preach Christ crucified, unto Jews a stumblingblock,
and unto Gentiles foolishness; 24but unto them that are called, both Jews
and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
Faith cannot be what seperates these two groups. You can't believe something before you are called to believe it.
_____________________________
In the Red Sea of His own blood, our Redeemer has
drowned the Pharaoh of our sins C H Spurgeon
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/12/2008 1:58:18 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5692
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
Thanks for the clarification. The Greek word for "called" is kletos, and is translated "called/invited". I see those who are "called" as simply those who have been invited to believe the gospel.
In this passage, you bagan with v.22, but I think v.21 is significant. "For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the messge preached to save those who believe." Throughout Scripture we read that our salvation (Eph 2:8), justification (Rom 3:23-25), forgiveness (Acts 10:43) and possession of eternal life (John 6:40) is based on faith. iow, we have these things because of our faith.
My disagreement with reformed theology is that they think God chose who would believe, though they never state it that way. But their view of election is just that; God chooses who will believe, and then gives them salvation, justification, forgiveness, eternal life, and, oh, by the way, the faith to believe.
Yet Scripture is very clear; faith is the means of all of these things.
So, to answer your question, I don't think the "calling" has anything to do with making the gospel believable. Titus 2:11 says "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men". That's real clear. I think the invitation to believe the gospel is made to all men. Some respond to the "call", many don't.
You are twisting this scripture big time.
Faith cannot be what seperates these two groups. You can't believe something before you are called to believe it.
What do you think the "calling" is? I accept the lexicon meaning of "to be invited". iow, the invitation is given, and some respond. That is consistent with all of Scripture, and "whosoever" may believe.
Your theology has a big time problem with the word of Jesus, who grieved at the hardness of the hearts of some. That makes no sense under reformed thinking. He grieved because people weren't believing in Him, which He wanted them to do. Recall that "God our Savior wants all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth".
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/12/2008 4:46:12 PM
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Destiny7777
Posts: 23
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
Thanks for the clarification. The Greek word for "called" is kletos, and is translated "called/invited". I see those who are "called" as simply those who have been invited to believe the gospel.
So, to answer your question, I don't think the "calling" has anything to do with making the gospel believable. Titus 2:11 says "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men". That's real clear. I think the invitation to believe the gospel is made to all men. Some respond to the "call", many don't.
Thank you for taking the time to respond. Sorry, but I'm still struggling to understand. If the calling is simply an invitation and all men are called then what does it mean in I Corinthians that not many wise are called, not many mighty are called, and not many noble are called? I think this is the real core of my original question. Exactly what does I Corinthians I : 26 mean?
quote:
1 Corinthians 1:26-29 (King James Version)
26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/12/2008 5:42:53 PM
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tdd1975
Posts: 247
Joined: 2/12/2008
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quote:
What do you think the "calling" is? I accept the lexicon meaning of "to be invited". iow, the invitation is given, and some respond. That is consistent with all of Scripture, and "whosoever" may believe.
Your theology has a big time problem with the word of Jesus, who grieved at the hardness of the hearts of some. That makes no sense under reformed thinking. He grieved because people weren't believing in Him, which He wanted them to do. Recall that "God our Savior wants all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth".
I agree with "to be invited" meaning of calling. Not many invited doesn't help your pov.
We have to rightly divide the Word. There is a general call that is given to all men. There are many that do not respond to this call and I agree with you that God is grieved with that.
But there is another call that is effectual.
(Romans 8:30) And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
predistined, called, justified, and glorified are all the same group of people. There are no drop outs or refused invitations.
_____________________________
In the Red Sea of His own blood, our Redeemer has
drowned the Pharaoh of our sins C H Spurgeon
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/12/2008 6:09:47 PM
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Destiny7777
Posts: 23
Joined: 5/2/2008
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quote:
From tdd1975: (Romans 8:30) And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
predistined, called, justified, and glorified are all the same group of people.
The discussion of "calling" led me to look it up in the Crosswalk tools. The entry they have says:
Kletos
Definition
called, invited (to a banquet)
invited (by God in the proclamation of the Gospel) to obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom through Christ
called to (the discharge of) some office
divinely selected and appointed
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
It seems there are more than one possible meanings to the word. I highligted the two that seem to be involved in this discussion (as I understand it). In the verse tdd1975 quoted - Romans 8:30 - it seems that the last definition must be meant (because those who are called are ultimately justified), right? How can we tell in the I Cor. Passage which definition is to be used?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/12/2008 8:47:16 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5692
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Destiny7777
quote:
Thanks for the clarification. The Greek word for "called" is kletos, and is translated "called/invited". I see those who are "called" as simply those who have been invited to believe the gospel.
So, to answer your question, I don't think the "calling" has anything to do with making the gospel believable. Titus 2:11 says "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men". That's real clear. I think the invitation to believe the gospel is made to all men. Some respond to the "call", many don't.
Thank you for taking the time to respond. Sorry, but I'm still struggling to understand. If the calling is simply an invitation and all men are called then what does it mean in I Corinthians that not many wise are called, not many mighty are called, and not many noble are called? I think this is the real core of my original question. Exactly what does I Corinthians I : 26 mean?
quote:
1 Corinthians 1:26-29 (King James Version)
26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
I see what you are asking. It could be that Paul is noting only those who answered the call. I really don't know. But I do know this, the word for "call" is rendered "invite" in my lexicons, so I see no issue of being elected.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/12/2008 8:53:40 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5692
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
What do you think the "calling" is? I accept the lexicon meaning of "to be invited". iow, the invitation is given, and some respond. That is consistent with all of Scripture, and "whosoever" may believe.
Your theology has a big time problem with the word of Jesus, who grieved at the hardness of the hearts of some. That makes no sense under reformed thinking. He grieved because people weren't believing in Him, which He wanted them to do. Recall that "God our Savior wants all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth".
I agree with "to be invited" meaning of calling. Not many invited doesn't help your pov.
We have to rightly divide the Word. There is a general call that is given to all men. There are many that do not respond to this call and I agree with you that God is grieved with that.
But there is another call that is effectual.
(Romans 8:30) And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
predistined, called, justified, and glorified are all the same group of people. There are no drop outs or refused invitations.
I think the key to Rom 8:30 is found in v.29, which begins with: "For whom He foreknew". I know the reformed understand "foreknew" as an intimate knowledge, kind of like the intimacy between husband and wife, but the word for "foreknew" is 'proginosko' and speaks of knowing "beforehand" what will occur. So it is quite acceptable to understand that God in His omniscience has always known who will believe His gospel, and it is to those He predestines, invites, justifes, and glorifies.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/12/2008 9:01:43 PM
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tdd1975
Posts: 247
Joined: 2/12/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
The discussion of "calling" led me to look it up in the Crosswalk tools. The entry they have says:
Kletos
Definition
called, invited (to a banquet)
invited (by God in the proclamation of the Gospel) to obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom through Christ
called to (the discharge of) some office
divinely selected and appointed
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
It seems there are more than one possible meanings to the word. I highligted the two that seem to be involved in this discussion (as I understand it). In the verse tdd1975 quoted - Romans 8:30 - it seems that the last definition must be meant (because those who are called are ultimately justified), right?
Yes, I believe both are found in the bible and you are correct the last definition has to be for Romans 8:30
quote:
How can we tell in the I Cor. Passage which definition is to be used?
The simplest way for me is to replace the word with the definition and compare with other texts.
(1 Corinthians 1:23) but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,
(1 Corinthians 1:24) but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
but to those invited (by God in the proclamation of the Gospel) to obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom through Christ
This definition doesn't fit because we are commanded to preach the gospel to every creature in all the world. The very fact that Paul says "but to those" excludes some.
but to those divinely selected and appointed
This definition makes the most sense and it fits with the Romans 8:30 passage.
But to those who are divinely selected and appointed Christ is the power of God and wisdom of God. Those that have this call will be justified and finally glorified.
_____________________________
In the Red Sea of His own blood, our Redeemer has
drowned the Pharaoh of our sins C H Spurgeon
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/12/2008 9:14:37 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5692
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
but to those divinely selected an | | |
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