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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 5:07:07 PM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 1906
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: contend4christ
[quote:
quote]ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
According to scripture if you have done something (work) you have reason to Biblically boast.
BUt since the Bible has clearly differentiated between faith and works, you should have no concerns at all. The Bible has made it very clear that man cannot boast based on his faith.
quote:
Making a choice is an action and it is work.
According to the Bible, you are wrong. The Bible differentiates between faith and works. What part of that do you not understand?
At first I was confused as to why you were not at all understanding my reasoning but I think I see why. We both agree that God does all the saving work, a 100% of the work? First do you believe that?
If so lets continue......
However we disagree that God is the cause of belief for the saints.
According to your belief man does by the regular definition (not the Biblical cause you make a big difference) do some type of work (ie. man exerts something or does something and he is the cause of what is done, by way of his own will). Feel free to correct me if I twist your belief as I am trying to interpret your view because I do make mistakes.
You ask whats so hard to understand the Bible clearly separates mans faith from works. However you don't answer why it does treat faith as if man cant say hey, I faithed, I have done something, some type of work. I say the reason is, faith is the work of God along with all of the process of salvation.
He saved us by his grace through faith, so faith was merely his tool to save you. Faith is not your tool to salvation, but his tool to save you (his wrench so to speak).
You believe, and you made a choice to believe indeed, but God said your choice to have faith was merely a tool to save you. my question is who do you think is using the tool (faith), ie. doing the work?
In your view God has tossed us the tool, we could use the tool or not. The problem is who ever uses the tool is doing work. I believe God is the one using the tool.
This is turning in circles now. Faith and works are separate in the Bible, and therefore must be separate in our lives. "tool" implies work, so it's not the best analogy since faith and works are separate. Plus, "works" are plainly (to me) visible acts. Read James.
Can faith without works save a man? -- James
Of course not, but it's not the works that do it -- Paul.
James simply states that faith is dead without works.
Oh yeah. I forgot. You people think that dead faith is still faith. Silly me. 
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 5:23:45 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
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I don't quite understand of what you're accusing me here... though I'm guessing that was just another facetious comment.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 6:13:33 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2050
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quote:
ORIGINAL: doublecross
rwe,
quote:
tells me you think salvation is possible for any man, not just a select group,
but yet you deny it is possible for a man to repent unless God
regenerates his heart (meaning his repentance is essentially forced). You sure are lost regarding HyperC. I resent the accusation because I do evangelize till people kick me in the face.
His repentance is not forced! What do you mean by that? The Spirit opening your eyes is a violent act? Wow, you guys are going to town on fallacious accusations.
Forget what I say.
Please read the sources I quoted and tell my why you are not a hyper one?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 6:15:21 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2055
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
quote:
TheosC : Faith gives birth to works. Perhaps you all missed that because you continue to want to take credit for your salvation.
Faith gives birth to works ? I'm not even sure you understand that statement .
Who may I ask on this thread continues to want to take credit for their salvation ? No one here has ever even implied that they take the credit for their salvation : thats simply reformed rhetoric in a feable attempt to discredit the non-reformed : IOW's , I'm sorry to have to say , its a lie . Do not bear false witness ; remember that one ?
Were have you seen anyone on this thread taking credit for their salvation, TC? Salvation is God's and only God's, without God's salvation work nobody would have been saved. Critique of the FW position is welcomed, but misrepresentation of FW point robs your view of all credibility.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 6:18:09 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2050
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quote:
KELMAN: the new heart IS being born again.
And because of this new heart we will evidence the faith
and repentance which God graciously gifts to us.
Please tell me how it is not heresy to teach we are saved before
we repent and believe. Please?
I reject it completely as unbiblical.
God has a redemptive plan.
That plan is that based repentance and faith we are born again.
Period.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 6:27:49 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2055
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
O:
I understand that, thanks, but what about responsibility? How can a person be held responsible for something he can not do ?........
Manna:
Greetings Miss Odeliya !
I really don't know how to respond here.
I know you believe in God's right to rule
His universe and govern as He sees fit.
It comes down to trusting God 100 %.
I am not saying or implying you don't trust.
But, if we have trusted God for salvation, then
we can confidently trust Him in all things !
Hello, Manna- I agree with the highlighted and appreciate you kindly saying that you believe me that i trust God.
I think what is still under debate here is interpretation of God's words( C version vs. FW version)
I have hard time believing that God acts against what (even in our human understanding) is Fair and Just.
But that is where the pov leads- we are responsible for something we can not do.
I am (for real, not sarcastically) truly happy for C's that are not bothered by that, maybe they know something i dont , are more enlightened, i give the benefit of the doubt gladly .But I cant reconcile that.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 6:38:12 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2050
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Do you remember Jesus' promise? Ask and you WILL receive? Seek, AND you WILL find?
Sure, but who is REALLY seeking ?
Pews today are full of SEEKERS !
We have seeker-friendly services !
Seemed there were SOME seekers, Manna:
Deuteronomy 4:29 (NIV)
But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if
you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul.
2 Chronicles 12:14(NASB)
He did evil because he did not set his heart to seek the LORD.
Psalm 14:2 (NIV)
The LORD looks down from heaven on the sons of men to see
if there are any who understand, any who seek God.
quote:
Is there any FINDING happening ?Why not ?
Mostly because of false teaching. I'm sure you agree.
quote:
Jesus tell us-
Luke 13:24 (King James Version)
Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you,
will seek to enter in, and shall not be able
(de-emphasized for context)
Strive?
Seek?
Shall not be able?
Why?
God disabled them? Never enabled them? Will not enable them?
Why shall they not be able to?
What did they ask?
Can only the remnant be saved?
Following Jesus costs.
Many who were (are) certain they would be saved are deceived, no?
There is only one way (Christ) and many will not enter.
This verse is not about election or enabling, but who will enter and how.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 6:47:16 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2050
Status: offline
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quote:
MCFATTY: Why are they so excited if it was already written in stone?
This can give you an idea of God's glory from a man's decision. The man repented.
God didn't force him to repent.
I have also asked this question several times.
Also why God commands something we are unable to do.
Why God waits patiently for us if we are unable.
Why desires us to do something if he cause us to do it.
And why God would change his mind based on us doing it?
The answers get quite jumble within the crampled quarters
Calvinism places God's sovereignty.
Ironically, the hyper C's actually limit God' sovereignty
by refusing to accept the fact that God can allow evil to
happen without being the cause of it.
Simply adding a disclaimer as the WM Confession does,
does not get their theology off the hook for making
God the author of evil.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 6:49:44 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2050
Status: offline
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quote:
MCFATTY: but foreknowledge and complete control over the
choices of men are two very different things.
Sssshhhhhhuuuuuushhhhh up with that you , you, you
free will person,
you.
signed,
The Calvin Myth-Busters
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 7:16:47 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2609
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
Does God know who is saved, or is it a surprise to Him who accepts salvation?
Edit: this is directed at non-reformed
Some believe God does not yet know...
He is waiting on man to act.
Some previously here believed in multiple
contingencies, and God was ignorant of result.
Until man chose, God was absolutely clueless.
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
If Jesus Christ came back today and saw what was being done in his name, he'd never stop throwing up.
Woody Allen
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 7:19:44 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2609
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: contend4christ
In your view God has tossed us the tool, we could use the tool or not. The problem is who ever uses the tool is doing work. I believe God is the one using the tool.
Elegantly simple and very poignant !
Can one perform heart surgery on oneself ?
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
If Jesus Christ came back today and saw what was being done in his name, he'd never stop throwing up.
Woody Allen
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 7:22:28 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2609
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: contend4christ
Eternal life is the gift of God, however faith is what God uses to get you the Gift. So tool is the proper analogy. Faith is Gods tool by which he saves, and he is the one working to bring salvation to us.
Amen !
Captain of our salvation
Author and perfecter of our faith
He Who began work will complete it
All from The Holy Writ !!!
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
If Jesus Christ came back today and saw what was being done in his name, he'd never stop throwing up.
Woody Allen
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 7:48:07 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2609
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Luke 13:24 (King James Version)
Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you,
will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
This verse is not about election or enabling, but who will enter and how.
...many...shall not be able...
It's right there rwe !!! Many not able !
Who made man to differ from one another ?
Who placed us in The Body as He pleased ?
The gift of God, His great salvation is
pressed into our hand by His Mighty hand.
Some here seem to think salvation is an
entitlement and all are owed an opportunity.
Kinda like a spiritual affirmative action.
Everyone has a fair chance. No one is slighted.
This is idle. This is man, and his rights !
If you were God, you would do it this way.
You would do it differently and save all men.
But, we are not God. His ways are higher.
The prospect of questioning God's choice is
loathsome and awkward. I'll have no part.
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
If Jesus Christ came back today and saw what was being done in his name, he'd never stop throwing up.
Woody Allen
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 7:52:46 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2609
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Do you remember Jesus' promise? Ask and you WILL receive? Seek, AND you WILL find?
Sure, but who is REALLY seeking ?
Pews today are full of SEEKERS !
We have seeker-friendly services !
Seemed there were SOME seekers, Manna:
Sure, but a few finders.
Who decided the amount of finders ?
Who determined the full number of Gentiles ?
The wheat and the weeds grow together.
The righteous and unrighteous are in proximity.
Seekers and finders in the same church building.
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
If Jesus Christ came back today and saw what was being done in his name, he'd never stop throwing up.
Woody Allen
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 7:55:04 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2055
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Were have you seen anyone on this thread taking credit for their salvation, TC? Salvation is God's and only God's, without God's salvation work nobody would have been saved. Critique of the FW position is welcomed, but misrepresentation of FW point robs your view of all credibility.
Perhaps you should be spokeswoman !!!
You seem to make more sense than others.
You are great wordsmith, filled with knowledge.
You are patient, and able to conduct a mutually
beneficial dialogue even with dissenters !!! 
You are intelligent and also humorous. 
My darling,  that would make a lovely obituary !
wonder if i am dead yet... i will go pinch myself.
quote:
Now, what was the question ?
thank you for the opportunity, out of time, but i will think of the questions and try to post it very soon!
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 8:05:45 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2609
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
All this ability you believe you possess is
not a (free) will, but God operating in you
according to His pleasure, by His power.
Your ability to respond, to know, to see,
to desire, to want...all given by God !
All these events and decisions that you
see as an internal resolution are not yours.
God has to give grace or we will never have it.
Grace is from God, not inherently within man.
The reason you chose God, is He chose you first.
I will not assume silence is agreement.
I do know it would be hard to disagree with this
and talk out of the other side of your mouth.
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
If Jesus Christ came back today and saw what was being done in his name, he'd never stop throwing up.
Woody Allen
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 8:10:16 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
You seem to believe that God chooses based on man's choice, right? If that is so, is that not works-based salvation? Romans 8:29-30 contradicts that belief.
I believe that God chooses based on man believing the gospel. And, that IS so, and it is NOT a works based salvation because Paul clearly differentiated works from faith in Rom 4:4,5. We earn nothing from believing, even though none of the reformists on this thread seem to understand that.
And you continue to contradict yourself.
No, you continue to misunderstand.
quote:
If God chooses based on man's believing, then man does something to get saved. That's the simple logical conclusion of your argument.
What did Paul tell the jailer who asked him what must I DO to be saved? He told him to believe. So, yes, man MUST do something; believe the gospel. That's Biblical.
quote:
Man does not, cannot earn their salvation. It is all a work of God.
Yes, the salvation is. But, the believing comes from man, whether you like it or not. And that is NOT a work, as you wrongly assume.
quote:
God grants man faith to believe in Him. Apart from God doing the work first, man cannot believe. You seem to be saying that one hand, but on the other hand, you say that man must believe first. Which is it? Works or God?
You simply cannot shake the error that if man believes, that somehow makes it a work. Since Paul differentiated faith from works, your hangup simply dissolves.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 8:15:16 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Do you remember Jesus' promise? Ask and you WILL receive? Seek, AND you WILL find?
Sure, but who is REALLY seeking ?
What does that matter to you? We know that Cornelius did seek, so that proves free will exists.
quote:
Pews today are full of SEEKERS ! We have seeker-friendly services ! Is there any FINDING happening ? Why not ?
Jesus tell us-
Luke 13:24 (King James Version)
24Strive to enter in at the strait gate:
for many, I say unto you,
will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
What does any of this have to do with the discussion?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 8:21:27 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
No, you simply continue to misunderstand my view. When one seeks God, God gives more evidence, as Cornelius demonstrates.
I am all ears, teach me ! 
First, you'll have to open them.
quote:
OK, so this sounds like fetal growth. IOW, you seem to want to mirror growth in the Spirit, with embryonic development. You said God would give a little at a time. God would illuminate those who seek.
So, what would be next for Cornelius ?
Acts 10 has shown you the progression. Why don't you understand it?
Who/what would be the next growth stage ? And how do we know we level up ? What is the criteria for the upgrade ? Here I thought God pours out His Spirit- Oh wait...God does say that !!! Not your installment plan !!! There's no "installment plan man" 
Who said there was, other than your erroneous misunderstanding?
quote:
Romans 5:5 (New American Standard Bible)
5and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
That is so true! God loves His creatures and promises that those who seek will find, whether you understand it or not.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 8:26:00 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Do you remember Jesus' promise?
Now God is a liar ? His Word is worthless ?
Why in the world do you ask such completely ridiculous questions? What you trying to prove? Apparently, only how ridiculous your questions are.
quote:
So, you allege God has made a promise to man, and He refuses to honor it ? WOW !
Wow, is right! If you had paid attention, you would have known that God ALWAYS keeps His promises. Why you erroneously think I said he refuses to honor it is beyond me, but knowing that you aren't really paying attention, and would rather ask silly questions, I shouldn't expect any more from you.
quote:
Think about what you are saying here Free...Implicit in this belief is Universalism. If God promised ALL men, and we know God keeps His promises... ALL are saved.
You really don't get this, do you. His promise to ALL MEN is that IF they seek Him, He WILL ensure they find Him.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 8:35:43 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
All this ability you believe you possess is
not a (free) will, but God operating in you
according to His pleasure, by His power.
Your ability to respond, to know, to see,
to desire, to want...all given by God !
All these events and decisions that you
see as an internal resolution are not yours.
God has to give grace or we will never have it.
Grace is from God, not inherently within man.
The reason you chose God, is He chose you first.
I will not assume silence is agreement.
I do know it would be hard to disagree with this
and talk out of the other side of your mouth.
You've been silent about my last several posts, as well, so I observe.
Your "I'll have no part of it" post is just another non-argument. "My side is right and yours is wrong" is not an argument. Do you understand this?
Your idea that understanding something different from the Bible is questioning God's choice is way off, but instead seems to be yet another refusal to try and understand the things people believe.
Your post also seemed to indicate that you believe God is a bigot. Is this the case?
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 8:35:56 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
FG,
quote:
quote:
I have checked my post #31214 and said nothing close to your deceptive claim. I read what you might think is the 3rd paragraph up from the bottom where I state,
“It only illustrates the doctrine of free will if you believe that doctrine and you want Cornelius to illustrate it. Of course I reject the kind of free will philosophy you espouse – it’s unscriptural - and therefore reject your idea that Cornelius illustrates that which I know to be false.”
I think you need to get over this.
I understand why you would want me to “get over this,” but you need to take responsibility for your accusations.
quote:
When you state the life of Cornelius "only" illustrates the doctrine of FW IF you believe that doctrine", you have very clearly stated that you don't see a doctrine that you don't believe.
If you actually believe what you just stated you are totally deceived. Your restatement of what I said totally changed the meaning.
I never said that "I don't see a doctrine that I don't believe." That is your spin alone. What I said was "[Cornelius] only illustrates the doctrine of freewill if you believe the doctrine and you want Cornelius to illustrate it.” Quite a difference. Your deceptive spin totally changes the meaning of what I said.
Nonsense. When you say that Cornelius only illustrates the doctrine IF you believe it clearly means that you don't see it. Or, do you see it? Which is it? You don't see it because you don't believe it.
quote:
quote:
Argue all you want; they're your own words. My claim was not deceptive at all. All I did was rephrase what you said, with the same meaning.
Yes, you rephrased what I said, but with the meaning you wanted, not what I clearly stated. You did violence to what I had said, the same way you do violence to Scripture. You were consciously deceptive or you are totally deceived yourself - it is only one or the other or both.
OK, here's how you can get over this. Just tell the thread if you see any free will in the life of Cornelius. That will show the thread who is right.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 8:43:27 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
4. Suppression of the truth in unrighteousness
Unrighteousness in and of itself is a suppression of the truth. Was Cornelius unrighteous? By all means yes; otherwise he would not need the Savior. Therefore he in his unrighteousness suppressed the truth.[/color]
This is one example alone. If that does not convince you and can repost more substance for you.
I'm not convinced. I claim that you fail to understand the context of Rom 1:18-24, which is about God making His existence evident to men, who suppress the truth about that. Whether you agree or not, that is the context, not merely sin as suppression of truth.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 8:59:03 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: contend4christ
quote:
quote]ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
According to the Bible, you are wrong. The Bible differentiates between faith and works. What part of that do you not understand?
At first I was confused as to why you were not at all understanding my reasoning but I think I see why. We both agree that God does all the saving work, a 100% of the work? First do you believe that?
Of course I do, the Bible says that.
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If so lets continue......
However we disagree that God is the cause of belief for the saints.
Yes. I believe that God is the cause of making the gospel evident to man, who is faced with the choice of believing it.
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According to your belief man does by the regular definition (not the Biblical cause you make a big difference) do some type of work (ie. man exerts something or does something and he is the cause of what is done, by way of his own will). Feel free to correct me if I twist your belief as I am trying to interpret your view because I do make mistakes.
The only definition that counts is what the Bible says, not some "regular definition, and the Bible says that faith | | |
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