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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2008 7:22:57 PM
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tdd1975
Posts: 351
Joined: 2/12/2008
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quote:
You act as though Acts 17 is the only place where the Bible speaks of men seeking God, when I gave you several different places. I never cited Acts 17 more than the other verses I cited. Tell me how those don't say that men seek God, if you would be so kind.
I meant nothing by it. I thought Acts 17 was your strongest verse.
Look, I am not saying that men don't seek God. What I am saying is that men don't seek Him on their own.
The verses you sited admonish men to seek God but does that mean that we can on our own?
I believe that our seeking is actually God drawing us to Jesus. Jo 6:44
One last thing. If God has decided to save only those who seek Him and find Him of their own free will, how can it be written "I was found of them that sought me not"? Ro 10:20
PS You don't have to respond if you don't want to. You and Manna are essentially having the same debate. I will just kick back and read you guys.
< Message edited by tdd1975 -- 7/22/2008 7:32:55 PM >
_____________________________
After conversion we need bruising so that reeds may know themselves to be reeds, and not oaks.- Richard Sibbes
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2008 8:06:19 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
In the discussion regarding to whom the wrath of God is directed at, the reformed view is that God's wrath is directed against everyone in the human race.
Yet, ANOTHER new teaching Free ! Where did this come from ? We are not under wrath-NOW But, all men are under condemnation. Name a time you weren't under wrath.
Apparently you weren't able to follow my post in 31916. What you quote here was only my opening statement. Everything that followed supported that.
Since you disagree with me, why didn't you deal with the whole post, rather than just the opening sentence?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2008 8:09:45 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
1 Cor 2:14 is speaking of the "deep things of God", of which the gospel is NOT that. So you are using a verse out of context to support your notion. There is no particular mention of "deep things of God" in those verses.
btw, if you look at v.10 of 1 Cor 2, you will read: "For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the deep things (depth) of God."
So, yes, there IS particular mention of "deep things of God" in the context of what the natural man cannot understand. From the context, the deep things of God cannot refer to the gospel.
Can't weasel out so easily...
The gospel obviously includes faith, belief, justification, redemption, etc.
These are certainly deep things !!!
In the context of 1 Cor 2:10-14, the "deep things of God are revealed by the Spirit to believers, NOT to unbelievers. The gospel call is for everyone, and since God makes evident "what is known about God" to everyone, why do you think He would keep the gospel from anyone, since He created everyone to seek Him?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2008 8:15:51 PM
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godogs
Posts: 21
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: godogs
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Do you believe God commands people to do something of which they aren't capable, which they can never achieve even with help?
Is this a trick question? because the obvious answer is ...Yes.
"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Please tell me who can do that? because I sure can't. I can't, but Jesus did for me. He gets my disobedience to these command and I get His obedience of these commands. Praise be to God, who spared not His own Son.
I can with the help of the Holy Spirit, and therefore I can, since the Holy Spirit dwells within me.
So you believe that you can love God with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind and your neighbor as yourself? You can do this all the time? You have got to be kidding me ...right. Because if you slip up just once you are in violation of these commands.
I know I haven't kept these commands with all my......, neither the first nor the second. I need to meet you because I know only one person who kept these commands and he is the God man.
I think if you were honest with yourself you would say that you have broken the first and the second command. Which brings us back to your question "would God command us to do something we can't do?" I reiterate, the answer is obviously.....yes.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2008 8:20:50 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
You act as though Acts 17 is the only place where the Bible speaks of men seeking God, when I gave you several different places. I never cited Acts 17 more than the other verses I cited. Tell me how those don't say that men seek God, if you would be so kind.
Look, I am not saying that men don't seek God. What I am saying is that men don't seek Him on their own.
If I may join your discussion with McFatty, who on this thread has ever said that man can or do seek God "on their own"? I've already pointed out from Romans 1:18-19 that God has made evident His existence so that men would understand He exists to get man to seek Him, plus God created man to seek Him. So, please answer this: how can you claim that non-reformists think man seeks God on his own?
quote:
The verses you sited admonish men to seek God but does that mean that we can on our own?
God created man to seek Him. Are you going to defend the idea that God creates men to do something that man is unable to do? Do you realize the effect that has on His sovereignty and omnipotence by that conclusion?
Now, please explain how God would create man for a specific purpose without giving him the means or ability to carry out that purpose?
quote:
I believe that our seeking is actually God drawing us to Jesus. Jo 6:44
I believe that Rom 1:18-19 demonstrates a drawing by God.
quote:
One last thing. If God has decided to save only those who seek Him and find Him of their own free will, how can it be written "I was found of them that sought me not"? Ro 10:20
Context. Who is being referred to? Gentiles, who didn't have the Law from God and weren't God's chosen nation. iow, even though Gentiles didn't have the background the Jews did, they obviously did respond to the evidence that God has given everyone, per Rom 1:19.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2008 8:23:55 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
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I believe you have misunderstood me, and it seems you have made some bad inferences as a result.
At no time in my response did I say "always" or "all the time". My statement is that without the Spirit, I couldn't do any of these things ever. With the Spirit, I can. Sure I slip up, but I can actually do them.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2008 8:29:25 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: godogs
So you believe that you can love God with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind and your neighbor as yourself? You can do this all the time? You have got to be kidding me ...right. Because if you slip up just once you are in violation of these commands.
I know I haven't kept these commands with all my......, neither the first nor the second. I need to meet you because I know only one person who kept these commands and he is the God man.
I think if you were honest with yourself you would say that you have broken the first and the second command. Which brings us back to your question "would God command us to do something we can't do?" I reiterate, the answer is obviously.....yes.
Your comments are directed to McFatty, but I'd like to ask you why you seem to think that McFatty is sinless or something?
Would you check out #31319 and comment about the word "righteous" in 1 Pet 3:12.
Also, 31320, and explain what you disagree with. Thanks.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2008 8:30:58 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2595
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: godogs
So you believe that you can love God with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind and your neighbor as yourself? You can do this all the time? You have got to be kidding me ...right. Because if you slip up just once you are in violation of these commands.
I know I haven't kept these commands with all my......, neither the first nor the second. I need to meet you because I know only one person who kept these commands and he is the God man.
I think if you were honest with yourself you would say that you have broken the first and the second command. Which brings us back to your question "would God command us to do something we can't do?" I reiterate, the answer is obviously.....yes.
Beautiful post...how true, how true !!!
Some are not as strict in their assessment
of self, they are better, more decent folk
than those quick to admit their total depravity.
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
If Jesus Christ came back today and saw what was being done in his name, he'd never stop throwing up.
Woody Allen
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2008 8:39:31 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2595
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
Look, I am not saying that men don't seek God. What I am saying is that men don't seek Him on their own.
And why would they ?
God allegedly implanted it in all-
But, it's not working, is it ? Nope !
Another portrait of God as incompetent.
So, God gave it to all, but all don't use it ?
God gave it to all, but some chose to ignore ?
God gave the seek mechanism to all, but for
some reason men continue to seek self !
quote:
PS You don't have to respond if you don't want to. You and Manna are essentially having the same debate. I will just kick back and read you guys.
Jump on the merry-go-round 
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
If Jesus Christ came back today and saw what was being done in his name, he'd never stop throwing up.
Woody Allen
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2008 8:50:04 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1443
Joined: 12/2/2006
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McFatty,
quote:
I believe you have misunderstood me, and it seems you have made some bad inferences as a result.
At no time in my response did I say "always" or "all the time". My statement is that without the Spirit, I couldn't do any of these things ever. With the Spirit, I can. Sure I slip up, but I can actually do them.
I dont think anyone mis-understands you.
The text that was given to you says;
Jesus replied:
"'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment.
And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
The text is clear.........perfectly clear.
The response you give only waters down the clear and perfect intent of the text.
The text was never meant to show people how good they are or how close to being good they are.
The text was never meant to show how anyone is able to meet what is required.
The text cleary states what is required and anything less than what is required does not MEET what is required.
The text should clearly show a person how miserably they fail at what is commanded.
It is called conviction.
It shows that people are not able to meet what God has clearly commanded.
Using the response you have given the text should read more like;
"Try to love the Lord as much as you can...........and try to love your neighbor as much as you can which should be almost as much as you love yourself".
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.
And;
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
That is the first point you should work on understanding.
The entire world naturally stands condmened by God because of sin.
The entire world cannot keep from sinning even though God commands perfection.
He commands perfection and no creature is able to meet what He requires.
KJB
_____________________________
For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2008 9:00:21 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
Look, I am not saying that men don't seek God. What I am saying is that men don't seek Him on their own.
And why would they ? God allegedly implanted it in all-
Why do you mock Scripture? Rom 1:19 isn't "alleged". It is divine Truth.
quote:
But, it's not working, is it ? Nope !
Did you come to faith? Why do you say it's not working, then? Everyone who posts on this thread has come to faith. Each one of us proves your nonsensical question wrong. Every believer in the world disproves your pov. God created man to seek Him, even though it appears that you don't believe it. I wonder what you think Acts 17:27 says.
quote:
Another portrait of God as incompetent.
No, not God. Just your theology.
Speaking of claiming the non-reformist pov portrays God as incompetent, how do you defend your theology that Rom 3:10-12 states that no one seeks God, yet Acts 17:27 says that God created man to seek Him? That means that what He created cannot do what He created them for.
How is your "portrait" of God any less incompetent than what you charge the non-reformist with? Please explain yourself.
quote:
So, God gave it to all, but all don't use it ?
Is that difficult for one who embraces a puppet theology to understand?
quote:
God gave it to all, but some chose to ignore ?
What do you think Rom 1:19 says?
quote:
God gave the seek mechanism to all, but for some reason men continue to seek self !
That "some reason" is called freedom of choice, something that puppets don't have, and therefore cannot comprehend.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2008 9:16:31 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
McFatty,
quote:
I believe you have misunderstood me, and it seems you have made some bad inferences as a result.
At no time in my response did I say "always" or "all the time". My statement is that without the Spirit, I couldn't do any of these things ever. With the Spirit, I can. Sure I slip up, but I can actually do them.
I dont think anyone mis-understands you.
The text that was given to you says;
Jesus replied:
"'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment.
And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
The text is clear.........perfectly clear.
The response you give only waters down the clear and perfect intent of the text.
The text was never meant to show people how good they are or how close to being good they are.
The text was never meant to show how anyone is able to meet what is required.
The text cleary states what is required and anything less than what is required does not MEET what is required.
The text should clearly show a person how miserably they fail at what is commanded.
It is called conviction.
It shows that people are not able to meet what God has clearly commanded.
Using the response you have given the text should read more like;
"Try to love the Lord as much as you can...........and try to love your neighbor as much as you can which should be almost as much as you love yourself".
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.
And;
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
That is the first point you should work on understanding.
The entire world naturally stands condmened by God because of sin.
The entire world cannot keep from sinning even though God commands perfection.
He commands perfection and no creature is able to meet what He requires.
KJB, Jesus was quoting from the Mosaic Law, right? What was the purpose of the Law?
Heb 7:19 says "for the Law made nothing perfect, and ont he other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, thorugh which we draw near to God." The Law draws man near to God.
Gal 3:21 "Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law."
Gal 3:24 "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith."
KJB, you want to make an issue of the fact that no one can keep the Law perfectly. That is a non-issue, as these verses show.
The purpose of the Law was to draw us to God (Heb) and as a tutor to lead us to Christ (Gal).
Therefore, God NEVER intended for man to keep it perfectly, since He knew that man couldn't. But the purpose of the Law is clear. It is the tutor which leads us to Christ.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2008 9:19:36 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1443
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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FreeGrace,
Try and understand the basic concept that sin is evil.
All sin and any sin is evil.
That is the very first thing you really need to grasp.
The next thing you need to grasp is that ALL people have a sin nature.
That means by nature they will SIN because by nature they are EVIL.
The human nature is bent towards evil.
These are basic and essential Christian doctrines.
This SIN nature that all people have does NOT turn people to the Light.
This basic EVIL nature is HOSTILE to the Light.
"This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
"For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
Now......if you still seem to EXCLUDE Cornelius from all of this, I can assure you that your doctrine is nothing but FLAWED in the most extreme sense.
This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.
We all know that Cornelius believed the gospel.
We all know that Cornelius was turning towards God.
We also KNOW that this turning was caused by the work of God and NOT Cornelius.
KJB
_____________________________
For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2008 9:26:06 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1443
Joined: 12/2/2006
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FreeGrace,
The question was if God commanded people to do what they were unable to do.
He CLEARLY did.
quote:
KJB, Jesus was quoting from the Mosaic Law, right? What was the purpose of the Law?
Heb 7:19 says "for the Law made nothing perfect, and ont he other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, thorugh which we draw near to God." The Law draws man near to God.
Gal 3:21 "Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law."
Gal 3:24 "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith."
KJB, you want to make an issue of the fact that no one can keep the Law perfectly. That is a non-issue, as these verses show.
The purpose of the Law was to draw us to God (Heb) and as a tutor to lead us to Christ (Gal).
Therefore, God NEVER intended for man to keep it perfectly, since He knew that man couldn't. But the purpose of the Law is clear. It is the tutor which leads us to Christ.
Oh is it now?
I thought our minds were suppose to lead us to God after we saw the special revelation He gave us mentioned in Romans 1?
Make up your mind here! 
FreeGrace,
Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
KJB
_____________________________
For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2008 9:41:35 PM
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tdd1975
Posts: 351
Joined: 2/12/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
I believe you have misunderstood me, and it seems you have made some bad inferences as a result.
At no time in my response did I say "always" or "all the time". My statement is that without the Spirit, I couldn't do any of these things ever. With the Spirit, I can. Sure I slip up, but I can actually do them.
Perhaps there is misunderstandings on both sides.
Calvinism doesn't teach that men never seek God. That would be crazy.
I recall you also saying several posts back that you believe faith is a gift.
I agree with you 100% but many of the freewill thinkers on this thread disagree heartily and if a Calvinist had said it they would have been quick to take us to task over it.
I may not understand exactly where you stand on all points.
I believe even our seeking is a gift from God.
Compare these two verses again.
(Romans 3:11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. (just consider for a moment that this all of fallen mankind)
to
(John 6:44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
(John 6:45) It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
In order for men to seek God they must first be taught of God in order to even see their need of Christ and come to him or seek Him. Just like in Acts 16 in which God opened Lydia's heart to pay attention to things said by Paul.
You said yourself that when your friends first witnessed to you, you thought it was pretty dumb but then after awhile God showed you the light and the rest was history. post 31535
What made you realize what those Christians were telling you was true? Was it you figuring it out on your own or God opening your understanding leading you to Himself by his grace?
I believe it was the later brother.
_____________________________
After conversion we need bruising so that reeds may know themselves to be reeds, and not oaks.- Richard Sibbes
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 12:04:22 AM
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AboundinginHisGrace
Posts: 312
Joined: 4/28/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: doublecross
quote:
Question, If I am not mistaken don't Calvinist believe people are born again then they accept Christ? If that is the case how did people in the old testament chose God? They were not born again. People could not be born again until after the death/resurrection of Christ. So if that is the case how could the old testament saints please God? There sins were not forgiven only postponed until Christ, hence why they didn't go to heaven when they died, but paradise (Abraham's Bosom)(They are in heaven now because Jesus took captivity captive and now when Christians die they go to heave because their sins are forgiving). So they had the free will to chose God. They were not born again and then chose God. They chose by their own freewill. Look at this verse. Deut 35:29 The children of Israel brought a freewill offering to the LORD, all the men and women whose hearts were willing to bring material for all kinds of work which the LORD, by the hand of Moses, had commanded to be done I know we cannot please God until we become Christians, but to say that you are changed then you accept God doesn't line up with the bible. AIHG,
The word you would like to dig into is Regeneration which Calvinists believe as being Born Again.
How do you explain being born again before you believe, since the Word repeatedly bases our salvation upon faith? And, please be clear, with Scriptural support.
How did old testament saints seek God? They were not born again.
_____________________________
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 12:10:53 AM
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AboundinginHisGrace
Posts: 312
Joined: 4/28/2008
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I have a question for Reformist. OK if man never had a freewill wouldn't that make God the author of sin? If He willed Adam and Eve to eat that would make God the author of sin wouldn't it? Also didn't even Satan have freewill as an angel? If he didn't that again would make God the author of sin. Also another question no one has answered yet. Ok if you look at Gen 6:5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”
God saw the people He created as evil and wasn't pleased. If He had willed these to not seek Him and to be evil, then why was He disappointed and in turn destroy them? Wouldn't that make God not be pleased with the way He willed mankind?
_____________________________
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 12:22:08 AM
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bob97
Posts: 1777
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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Adam and Eve were a different story...when they made the decision to eat of the apple they did have free will. It was only after the fall that they would have been dead in sin and unable to reach out to God on their own.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 3:30:38 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3690
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
1 Cor 2:14 is speaking of the "deep things of God", of which the gospel is NOT that. So you are using a verse out of context to support your notion.
There is no particular mention of "deep things of God" in those verses. Paul says it is the power of the Spirit which teaches NOT the wisdom or preaching of man. What is being spoken about is the Gospel...which is in and of itself "deep" enough.
You have no support for that verse to be speaking of the gospel, only your assumption.
Of course, there is support that the Gospel is what being spoken about. Paul says in the very first verse "And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God."
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It is by the power of God that man gains this "wisdom". And it goes on to say that the natural man cannot know the things of God because it can be discerned only by the spiritual man - not the FOOLISH man. And men become spiritual men when they are regenerated - God no longer considers them to be fools. Wrong. Romans 1 is clear that God has made evident to everyone what is known about God, and His power, nature, and attributes are clearly seen so that no one has an excuse for not seeking Him, which we were created to do. FG, we're discussing 1Cor 2 - not Romans. This is NOT about the evidence of a Creator in creation.
1Cor 2 says that man gains the wisdom only through the power of God - not through the excellency of the man preaching the Gospel. It also says a man must be a spiritual not a foolish man; and, one becomes a spiritual man when one is regenerated. Otherwise he stays a "foolish" man.
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No, FG, that is NOT all. You have said that once a man believes the light God gives God WILL give additional light. And, that simply is not true. You failed to get my whole point. Rom 1:21 speaks of those who "knew" God but didn't honor Him as God nor were thankful. That speaks of ignoring the Truth that God makes evident to them. Why should God give them more light, when they aren't interested. The point, kelman, is that whether one simply rejects the Truth that God makes evident, like fools, or ignores the Truth that God makes evident, like those in v.21, God hasn't promised to give more light to them. He HAS promised to those who seek Him that they will find Him. Thank you for your further explanation, FG. Not surprisingly I don't agree that only fools reject the truth. If one "ignores" the Truth, aren't they rejecting it? Many seek God; but, do not find Him.
Rom 1 makes it clear that Paul considers all, Jews and Gentiles alike, to be under the wrath of God. The heathen Gentiles were totally corrupt. And, in chapter two we see the Jews were no better considering the great blessings God had bestowed upon them. Paul is saying God considers them all under His righteous wrath.
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But, frankly, FG, it would be silly to speculate that of the multiple millions who have never received the Gospel there were not those who believed a supreme Being created this world.
Of course there are many who di believe in a supreme Being. But, did they ignore that Truth, in the sense of NOT seeking Him actively? That is the issue, which you seem to miss. If they don't seek Him, He hasn't promised them that they will find Him. The promise is ONLY to those who seek God actively, as Cornelius clearly demonstrates.
For the thousandth time FG, everyone isn't "missing" the point. We just disagree with you. It would be very helpful if you could distinquish between the two....less time consuming too. If Cornelius sought God, and he did, it is because God was drawing him or had regenerated him.
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Are you now admitting that indeed God is the determining factor in your act of believing? This clearly demonstrates my point that you have failed to grasp my pov. I've ALWAYS noted that it is God who makes evident His existence, which should lead one to seek Him. That is why man is without excuse for not seeking Him. If God hadn't made Himself evident, man WOULD have an excuse for not seeking Him. But, no man has an excuse.
What it clearly demonstrates is that you did not answer the question. Apparently you are so obsessed with Romans 1 and Cornelius you can't answer a simple question. I didn't ask about the evidence of creation. I asked you if God is the determining factor for your act of belief. IOW, did He first change your heart so that you might believe?
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 3:36:26 AM
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kelman
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: kelman
Judas and the others who killed Christ chose to do exactly as they did; but, according to God, this "choice" of theirs was predetermined by God. So, their choice was definitely not free from God's predetermination.
Just be clear. Did God cause Judas and the others to do exactly as they did, or did He allow them to? Which is it you are claiming?
If you mean by "cause" that God magically dropped the thought into Judas' mind - then, no God did not cause it. OTOH, Judas' ability to choose is governed by certain factors; and, all his choices are determined by the eternal decrees of God.
In any event, I would disagree that the actions of the sinful men were accomplished simply because God "allowed" them to happen.
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The "influence" of which I speak is not the evidence from creation...surely you knew that. For example, it is the "influence" of God on Judas et al concerning the crucifixion of Christ.
Nonsense. the "influence" of which you speak is really cause, force, etc. Rather, what is nonsensical is the belief God simply "allows" events to unfold while He remains aloof and non-involved....nonsensical and non-scriptural.
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Man makes choices, he has the freewill to do so. But these choices cannot be other than what God has ordained.
Your pov is totally contradictory. Apparently words don't mean things to you. You admit man has free will to make choices, but out of the other side of your mouth you claim those choices are what God caused (ordained). Nonsensical. It is only nonsensical to the free will mind. Man makes choices according to his nature and other determining factors. These determining factors are always determined by God's eternal decree.
Besides which, apart from the Holy Spirit the natural man chooses "darkness" because as Scripture tells us "and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 4:19:52 AM
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kelman
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ORIGINAL: SureHope
kelman,
thanks for the encouragement, it means a lot coming from you.
You're most welcome. I enjoy your informative posts....so please keep'em coming!
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I think what was going probably going on in Acts 10 is that God regenerated Cornelius somewhere at the beginning of the chapter and later when Peter preached the Gospel Cornelius became saved.
Can you comment on your view of the place of regeneration in relationship to conversion? Also, what do the terms salvation and conversion mean to you - are they two terms describing the same thing or something other?
Regeneration always takes place first because without the new heart/spirit the natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit. We see this in John 3 and 1Cor 2:14. The Gospel is a "spiritual" message so without first being regenerated we can only understand or believe on an intellectual level. Once we savingly believe God has converted or given us salvation.
I used to think there wasn't much reason to separate regeneration from conversion or salvation. Depending upon with whom you were speaking, it seemed to just cause confusion. Especially since once regenerated it was impossible to "not" become saved, justified, sanctified and glorified. I think that was a wrong idea on my part. Better to fully explain the way in which God saves than to take "shortcuts".
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Would you, for example, say that, "sanctification by the Spirit" speaks of regeneration and "belief in the truth" speaks of conversion?
But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. (2Th 2:13 ESV)
Regeneration and conversion are so closely associated but I would say that this "sanctification by the Spirit" is speaking of regeneration where the new spirit is "born from above" without any holiness, goodness or faith on the part of man. Though, these are certain to follow. The belief in the "Truth" is also sure to follow for Christ Himself is the Truth.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 4:33:51 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3690
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ORIGINAL: McFatty
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ORIGINAL: kelman
So-called "constraints of time" is irrelevant. God cannot know what is not certain. His decree does not produce the event, but only renders its occurrence certain. Everything that God foreknows is certain, everything that is certain has been foreordained. Since God knows everything, everything is foreordained.
Was Judas, et al, free to choose other than what God had foreordained?
Judas made the choice. Judas betrayed Jesus. The Father didn't betray Jesus through Judas, which is what you're implying. My question is was Judas free to choose other than what God had foreordained? You didn't answer that. How can you infer from anything I said that the Father betrayed Jesus? All the events of salvation and the Crucifixion were the work of the Godhead. Jesus was not surprised by what the Father foreordained.
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: -Acts 2:23
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Do I believe a wicked heart will seek God? I believe a wicked heart is a miserable one which wants to find a way out of its misery.
Well, I don't know about that one, Mac, I know some pretty happy people with wicked hearts :) The point is, though, that God demands we seek Him with our whole heart; and, a desperately wicked and deceitful heart just can't do that...because it doesn't want to do that. I'm not saying man cannot seek God; but, man can never seek God as He commands him to - with his whole heart.
Psalm 119:2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
Psalm 119:10 With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.
Jeremiah 24:7 And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.
Jeremiah 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 4:36:03 AM
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