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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 2:57:55 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
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Another one to consider is why God must change His mind.
"The LORD changed His mind about this. "It shall not be," said the LORD." - Amos 7:3
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 3:06:30 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6425
Joined: 12/30/2005
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Manna boldly claimed in 31448 that "More importantly, a Calvinist simply does not believe free will even exists."
God told the Jews, "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So CHOOSE LIFE IN ORDER THAT YOU MAY LIVE, YOU AND YOUR DESCENDANTS,. Deut 30:19,20.
Joshua addressed the Jews with this: "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, CHOOSE YOU THIS DAY WHOM YE WILL SERVE, whether the gods which your fahers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, WE WILL SERVE THE LORD." Joshua 24:15.
It seems that the calvinists don't believe in free will because they don't want to, in spite of clear Biblical proof that man chooses who he will serve, just as is also noted by Paul in Rom 6:16: "Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness"?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 4:50:35 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1500
Joined: 3/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
I agree also that "no excuse" means you have the equipment to honor God. The question is, has anyone done it?
Yes, all who have responded to the Truth that God has made evident to everyone. Cornelius is exhibit A, for the thread.
There is not enough information given in Acts for us to know the means through which God brought Cornelius to believe.
quote:
quote:
Everyone has fallen short by their sin and has no excuse for their sin.
Eh, the "no excuse" clause isn't about sinning, if you assume so. Romans 1 is about recognizing God, honoring Him, and being thankful to Him. These things can NOT be considered sinful.
Romans 1 is about recognizing God and, in spite of that, NOT honoring Him and Not being thankful to Him. This is unrighteous and sinful and is the apostle Paul's point. All have sinned in the light of God’s revelation of Himself found in creation. All have refused to honor God in their sin. Even though they (and we) knew God through the means of creation, they (and we) all chose sin instead.
For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. (Rom 1:21 ESV)
quote:
Since we (human race) have no excuse, that absolutely means we CAN do so.
We could, but we would not, until God initiated His work of grace in us.
quote:
If you disagree with this, please provide a very clear and detailed analysis why you disagree, since Del has been virtually begging someone to help her understand the RT pov.
Del is very capable of asking me what ever she would like and I am happy to answer her.
quote:
please provide a very clear and detailed analysis why you disagree
I haven’t had an assignment like this since college. : )
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 6:26:27 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6425
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
I agree also that "no excuse" means you have the equipment to honor God. The question is, has anyone done it?
Yes, all who have responded to the Truth that God has made evident to everyone. Cornelius is exhibit A, for the thread.
There is not enough information given in Acts for us to know the means through which God brought Cornelius to believe.
How can you say that? According to Romans 1:19, God has made evident to everyone His existence, power, nature, and attributes, so that man would seek Him. And we know from Acts 10 that Cornelius DID seek Him. That would be "means #1".
Then, as a result of Cornelius seeking God, God sent an angel with a message, which Cornelius also believed. That would be "means #2".
Then, because Cornelius believed the angel, God sent Peter with the gospel, which Cornelius believed. That would be "means #3".
Now, what do you specifically disagree with here?
quote:
quote:
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Everyone has fallen short by their sin and has no excuse for their sin.
Eh, the "no excuse" clause isn't about sinning, if you assume so. Romans 1 is about recognizing God, honoring Him, and being thankful to Him. These things can NOT be considered sinful.
Romans 1 is about recognizing God and, in spite of that, NOT honoring Him and Not being thankful to Him. This is unrighteous and sinful and is the apostle Paul's point. All have sinned in the light of God’s revelation of Himself found in creation.
Acts 10 demonstrates otherwise.
quote:
All have refused to honor God in their sin.
That is NOT what Romans 1 is about. Cornelius honored God, by reverencing Him. Do you deny this? On what basis?
quote:
Even though they (and we) knew God through the means of creation, they (and we) all chose sin instead.
This IS NOT about sin vs recognizing God, or sin vs honoring God. It's about recognizing God as God and honoring Him be seeking Him, which Cornelius did.
quote:
quote:
If you disagree with this, please provide a very clear and detailed analysis why you disagree, since Del has been virtually begging someone to help her understand the RT pov.
Del is very capable of asking me what ever she would like and I am happy to answer her.
Are you serious? Haven't you seen any of her posts asking the C camp for their view on responsibility and accountability???
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 8:19:29 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1500
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
I agree also that "no excuse" means you have the equipment to honor God. The question is, has anyone done it?
Yes, all who have responded to the Truth that God has made evident to everyone. Cornelius is exhibit A, for the thread.
There is not enough information given in Acts for us to know the means through which God brought Cornelius to believe.
How can you say that?
Easy: There is not enough information given in Acts for us to know the means through which God brought Cornelius to believe.
quote:
According to Romans 1:19, God has made evident to everyone His existence, power, nature, and attributes, so that man would seek Him. And we know from Acts 10 that Cornelius DID seek Him.
Acts 10 does not give enough information for any to make a difinitive claim that Corn sought God on the basis of creation alone or by God directly do a work of grace in the heart.
quote:
quote:
Romans 1 is about recognizing God and, in spite of that, NOT honoring Him and Not being thankful to Him. This is unrighteous and sinful and is the apostle Paul's point. All have sinned in the light of God’s revelation of Himself found in creation.
Acts 10 demonstrates otherwise.
Only if you assume that Corn sought for God based upon God giving evidence of Himself through the means of creation alone.
quote:
quote:
All have refused to honor God in their sin.
That is NOT what Romans 1 is about. Cornelius honored God, by reverencing Him. Do you deny this? On what basis?
Sin dishoners God.
quote:
quote:
Even though they (and we) knew God through the means of creation, they (and we) all chose sin instead.
This IS NOT about sin vs recognizing God, or sin vs honoring God.
That is right. Romans 1 is about all men are without excuse for sinning in the light of God making Himself evident to them through the means of creation. Those who dishonor God are sinning. Sin dishonors God. God made Himself evident to all men through creation. All men sinned. All men dishonored God.
quote:
quote:
quote:
If you disagree with this, please provide a very clear and detailed analysis why you disagree, since Del has been virtually begging someone to help her understand the RT pov.
Del is very capable of asking me what ever she would like and I am happy to answer her.
Are you serious? Haven't you seen any of her posts asking the C camp for their view on responsibility and accountability???
What, are you Del's agent or something?
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 8:29:17 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6425
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
I agree also that "no excuse" means you have the equipment to honor God. The question is, has anyone done it?
Yes, all who have responded to the Truth that God has made evident to everyone. Cornelius is exhibit A, for the thread.
There is not enough information given in Acts for us to know the means through which God brought Cornelius to believe.
How can you say that?
Easy: There is not enough information given in Acts for us to know the means through which God brought Cornelius to believe.
OK, I understand. You are ignoring the 3 times that God brought divine revelation to him.
quote:
quote:
According to Romans 1:19, God has made evident to everyone His existence, power, nature, and attributes, so that man would seek Him. And we know from Acts 10 that Cornelius DID seek Him.
Acts 10 does not give enough information for any to make a difinitive claim that Corn sought God on the basis of creation alone or by God directly do a work of grace in the heart.
Why is it so hard to accept that he simply accepted as true (believed) the Truth that God made evident to him on 3 separate occasions?
quote:
quote:
quote:
Romans 1 is about recognizing God and, in spite of that, NOT honoring Him and Not being thankful to Him. This is unrighteous and sinful and is the apostle Paul's point. All have sinned in the light of God’s revelation of Himself found in creation.
Acts 10 demonstrates otherwise.
Only if you assume that Corn sought for God based upon God giving evidence of Himself through the means of creation alone.
You are really fighting this, aren't you. We know from Rom 1 that no one has any excuse for not seeking God, and we ARE created to seek God, so why is it so "foreign" to you that you can't see that Cornelius simply was seeking the God who revealed Himself to him?
quote:
quote:
quote:
All have refused to honor God in their sin.
That is NOT what Romans 1 is about. Cornelius honored God, by reverencing Him. Do you deny this? On what basis?
Sin dishoners God.
Does seeking God dishonor Him, or honor Him? And, why?
quote:
quote:
quote:
Even though they (and we) knew God through the means of creation, they (and we) all chose sin instead.
This IS NOT about sin vs recognizing God, or sin vs honoring God.
That is right. Romans 1 is about all men are without excuse for sinning in the light of God making Himself evident to them through the means of creation. Those who dishonor God are sinning. Sin dishonors God. God made Himself evident to all men through creation. All men sinned. All men dishonored God.
Cornelius was seeking God. Did that dishonor God or honor Him?
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
If you disagree with this, please provide a very clear and detailed analysis why you disagree, since Del has been virtually begging someone to help her understand the RT pov.
Del is very capable of asking me what ever she would like and I am happy to answer her.
Are you serious? Haven't you seen any of her posts asking the C camp for their view on responsibility and accountability???
What, are you Del's agent or something?
Ha, I'm as interested as she is about your explanations of why man is accountable to God since God created man unable to do what God asks of him.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 9:30:55 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1263
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: online
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McFatty,
quote:
If I'm not wrong, according to you, no creature is able to meet what He requires because He refuses to allow them to. Is that right?
In regard to the intent of my post to you.....instead of both of us going into more and more questions, can we at least come to a conclusion on the first question?
One of your questions on this forum was if God actually commanded people to do what they were incapable of doing. That is what I was responding to.
Dialogue on other issues such as "causes" can certainly follow. 
You had the notion that if God commanded people to do what they could not do, He was sort of a cruel brute of sorts if He was to punish them. You used the idea of a person commanding another person not to urinate, and then the person was punished for urinating when it was only natural for them to urinate.
The following is the text that someone else posted to you in an attempt to show you that Jesus Christ most certainly commanded a person to do what they were unable to do;
"'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment.
And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
The text implies "commandments".
I say the Word of God is clear that all people fall short and do not meet what is commanded.
I say the Word of God is clear that those with the written law as well as those without the written law are all guilty of not keeping the law.
Your repsonse to the text was;
quote:
I believe you have misunderstood me, and it seems you have made some bad inferences as a result.
At no time in my response did I say "always" or "all the time". My statement is that without the Spirit, I couldn't do any of these things ever. With the Spirit, I can. Sure I slip up, but I can actually do them.
Someone may have misunderstood you.
With the above clarification that you gave I really dont think I have a mis-understanding.
I think you have a misunderstanding of what the commands command.
I figure by your response that you dont have an actual grasp of those commands (and I am not saying that to belittle you at all).
That is what I was responding to.
I am not un-willing to go into more questions and answers with you in a dialogue......but is it possible we can reach a conclusion on this issue first?
I say the Word of God is clear that people are not to sin.
I also say the Word of God claims that people are not capable of meeting what is required by God.
Do we agree on that or not?
I think this is the first hurdle that when properly understood clearly shows that people are with a sin nature and not a free nature.
By nature people have a sinful-will which is hostile to God and is not a free-will.
That is why they do not meet what is commanded.
KJB
For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.
_____________________________
"The natural man receives not the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 9:41:52 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1263
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: online
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FreeGrace,
quote:
It seems that the calvinists don't believe in free will because they don't want to, in spite of clear Biblical proof that man chooses who he will serve, just as is also noted by Paul in Rom 6:16:
"Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness"?
You always avoid important text;
Romans 6
16Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
17But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted.
18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
Why does the text claim we give thanks to God that we wholeheartedly obeyed?
With our free-wills at work, why dont we thank our own wills that we wholeheartedly obeyed?
The text is crystal clear.
Your POV would have only your will to thank for your obedience to the gospel.
I say (along with the text above) that we have God to thank that we obeyed the gospel.
KJB
_____________________________
"The natural man receives not the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 9:48:54 PM
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AboundinginHisGrace
Posts: 184
Joined: 4/28/2008
Status: offline
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Ex 35:28 and spices and oil for the light, for the anointing oil, and for the sweet incense. 29 The children of Israel brought a freewill offering to the LORD, all the men and women whose hearts were willing to bring material for all kinds of work which the LORD, by the hand of Moses, had commanded to be done.
No one has answered the question I have yet. Reformists say that you have to be born again/regenerated before you accept/chose Christ. Then how did Noah, David, etc etc old testament prophets chose God? They were not born again.
_____________________________
"What a mercy it is that it is not your hold of Christ that saves you, but his hold of you." - Spurgeon
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 9:52:17 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1500
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: offline
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FG,
quote:
OK, I understand. You are ignoring the 3 times that God brought divine revelation to him.
No, not ignoring them at all. Those things happened, of course, but the question is, how did Corn come to believe. You have one view, I have another. Acts 10 does not address the issue. The point of Acts 10 is not answering the question if it is possible for a fallen man to have a sincere desire to please God without God initiating a work in his heart. It is just not there in the text.
quote:
We know from Rom 1 that no one has any excuse for not seeking God, and we ARE created to seek God, so why is it so "foreign" to you that you can't see that Cornelius simply was seeking the God who revealed Himself to him?
It depends on what you mean by "God who revealed Himself to him." I believe that no one comes to God until God does a work of grace in his heart and on that basis it is not foreign to me at all.
quote:
quote:
Romans 1 is about all men are without excuse for sinning in the light of God making Himself evident to them through the means of creation. Those who dishonor God are sinning. Sin dishonors God. God made Himself evident to all men through creation. All men sinned. All men dishonored God. Cornelius was seeking God. Did that dishonor God or honor Him?
Just as I dishonored God by my sinfulness, so did Corn. Just as I, after God did a work of grace in my heart, began to seek God, so did Corn - and yes, that honors God and pleases Him.
quote:
I'm as interested as she is about your explanations of why man is accountable to God since God created man unable to do what God asks of him.
My response to her is public, you can read it if you want.
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 10:11:13 PM
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AboundinginHisGrace
Posts: 184
Joined: 4/28/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Adam and Eve were a different story...when they made the decision to eat of the apple they did have free will. It was only after the fall that they would have been dead in sin and unable to reach out to God on their own.
Bob, what makes being dead in sins being unable to make a choice to either believe the divine Truth that God reveals or reject that divine Truth?
Keep in mind that God created mankind (not Adam) to seek Him, and that He makes Himself evident, and is clearly seen so that no one has an excuse for not seeking Him.
What do reformists believe is dead? Is it the body, soul, or spirit. The body and soul are much alive, it is the spirit that is dead. So to say that we are dead and not able to seek God doesn't make sense.
_____________________________
"What a mercy it is that it is not your hold of Christ that saves you, but his hold of you." - Spurgeon
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 10:33:27 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1263
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: online
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AboundinginHisGrace,
quote:
No one has answered the question I have yet. Reformists say that you have to be born again/regenerated before you accept/chose Christ. Then how did Noah, David, etc etc old testament prophets chose God? They were not born again.
Why would we conclude they were not?
Here is some really neat text about free-will offerings.
Notice that the text does not exclude the fact that God moved the hearts of mere humjan beings to do what they did.
They were not under duress or force but were simply made willing by God.
Ezra 1;
1 In the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, in order to fulfill the word of the LORD spoken by Jeremiah, the LORD moved the heart of Cyrus king of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his realm and to put it in writing:
2 "This is what Cyrus king of Persia says:
" 'The LORD, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth and he has appointed me to build a temple for him at Jerusalem in Judah. 3 Anyone of his people among you—may his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem in Judah and build the temple of the LORD, the God of Israel, the God who is in Jerusalem. 4 And the people of any place where survivors may now be living are to provide him with silver and gold, with goods and livestock, and with freewill offerings for the temple of God in Jerusalem.' "
We have just been shown in that text that God moved the heart of a king to make a proclamation.
God can surely do the same with any other person I would think......wouldnt you?
Would it be un-reasonable to suppose that God could move the heart of a person to proclaim the gospel?
The text in Ezra 1 continues;
5 Then the family heads of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests and Levites—everyone whose heart God had moved—prepared to go up and build the house of the LORD in Jerusalem. 6 All their neighbors assisted them with articles of silver and gold, with goods and livestock, and with valuable gifts, in addition to all the freewill offerings.
Now we have text showing that God moved the hearts of people to obey what He had moved the heart of a king to proclaim.
Would it be un-reasonable to think that God could move the heart of a man to proclaim the gospel and at the same time move the hearts of other men to also obey the gospel?
I dont see anything wrong with the picture myself.
God moved the heart of a king to proclaim, and He moved the hearts of people to obey what was proclaimed.........and they all did so willingly.
I think it is an excellent case of the awesome and wonderful power of God at work in mere humans.
KJB
_____________________________
"The natural man receives not the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 10:52:10 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1263
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: online
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FreeGrcae,
For me to give an understandable response to your post number 31951, I think you would have to learn to understand the definitions and uses of words and terms such as;
Light, evil, nature, sin, effect, created, fail, comprehend, seek, evident, existence, power, nature, attributes, no one, excuse, hostile, etc.......
How can we dialogue when you cant even claim that to believe in Jesus Christ is a good thing to do?
How can we dialogue when you make distinctions such as right and wrong as being so completely different from good and evil?
How can we dialogue when you dont even see sin and evil as being the same sort of thing?
How can we dialogue when I tell you I was not seeking God and you claim that I was?
How can we dialogue when most of the time all you do is accuse people of not understanding anything of your POV and Scripture text when we ALL have so much free-will to understand it all?
I think it is you that does not understand that from our POV, we really do understand your POV.
So......I really dont know how I would even begin to answer your post.
KJB
_____________________________
"The natural man receives not the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 11:01:10 PM
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AboundinginHisGrace
Posts: 184
Joined: 4/28/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
AboundinginHisGrace,
quote:
No one has answered the question I have yet. Reformists say that you have to be born again/regenerated before you accept/chose Christ. Then how did Noah, David, etc etc old testament prophets chose God? They were not born again.
Why would we conclude they were not?
Here is some really neat text about free-will offerings.
Notice that the text does not exclude the fact that God moved the hearts of mere humjan beings to do what they did.
They were not under duress or force but were simply made willing by God.
Ezra 1;
1 In the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, in order to fulfill the word of the LORD spoken by Jeremiah, the LORD moved the heart of Cyrus king of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his realm and to put it in writing:
2 "This is what Cyrus king of Persia says:
" 'The LORD, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth and he has appointed me to build a temple for him at Jerusalem in Judah. 3 Anyone of his people among you—may his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem in Judah and build the temple of the LORD, the God of Israel, the God who is in Jerusalem. 4 And the people of any place where survivors may now be living are to provide him with silver and gold, with goods and livestock, and with freewill offerings for the temple of God in Jerusalem.' "
We have just been shown in that text that God moved the heart of a king to make a proclamation.
God can surely do the same with any other person I would think......wouldnt you?
Would it be un-reasonable to suppose that God could move the heart of a person to proclaim the gospel?
The text in Ezra 1 continues;
5 Then the family heads of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests and Levites—everyone whose heart God had moved—prepared to go up and build the house of the LORD in Jerusalem. 6 All their neighbors assisted them with articles of silver and gold, with goods and livestock, and with valuable gifts, in addition to all the freewill offerings.
Now we have text showing that God moved the hearts of people to obey what He had moved the heart of a king to proclaim.
Would it be un-reasonable to think that God could move the heart of a man to proclaim the gospel and at the same time move the hearts of other men to also obey the gospel?
I dont see anything wrong with the picture myself.
God moved the heart of a king to proclaim, and He moved the hearts of people to obey what was proclaimed.........and they all did so willingly.
I think it is an excellent case of the awesome and wonderful power of God at work in mere humans.
KJB
They could not be born again. Their sins were not forgiven, they were postponed. Paul stated that the blood of goat and bulls never cleansed sin. Their/our sins were cleansed by what Christ did on the Cross. So they could not be born again. That is why old testaments saints went to paradise/Abraham's bosom when they died. They could not enter heaven until Christ died on the cross. That is what it is saying about Christ taking captivity captive and when the old testament saints were seem walking among the living. After Christ ascended and so did the OT saints, and now when Christians die they go to heaven. So if you have to born again before you seek God, how did they seek God?
_____________________________
"What a mercy it is that it is not your hold of Christ that saves you, but his hold of you." - Spurgeon
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 11:05:26 PM
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tdd1975
Posts: 302
Joined: 2/12/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
If the reformed interpretation of Romans 3:10 were correct ; I wonder how they can explain Ps 14:4 ? God would have no people for the wicked to eat up if their interpretation were accurate . If there were none that understood and did not seek God , how on earth would God have any of what He calls My People in Ps 14:4 ? How would it be possible for God to be in the generation of the righteous (Ps 14:5) if Ps 14:1-3 was referring to all humanity ?
No one has said that there are not saved people that are called God's people.
Ro 3:9-20 is referring to all unregenerate mankind.
Free separates this group as being only atheists.
quote:
Romans 3:14 quotes Ps 10:7 , those in 10:7 are described in 10:1-13 as the wicked , who through the pride of his countenance , will not seek after God .
If it is by your righteous seeking that you are saved, why do all the free will crowd get so upset when we declare that you teach that God only saves good people?
That is exactly what you are teaching right here.
_____________________________
(John 8:11) Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 11:19:05 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1774
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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quote:
They could not be born again. Their sins were not forgiven, they were postponed. Paul stated that the blood of goat and bulls never cleansed sin. Their/our sins were cleansed by what Christ did on the Cross. So they could not be born again. That is why old testaments saints went to paradise/Abraham's bosom when they died. They could not enter heaven until Christ died on the cross. That is what it is saying about Christ taking captivity captive and when the old testament saints were seem walking among the living. After Christ ascended and so did the OT saints, and now when Christians die they go to heaven. So if you have to born again before you seek God, how did they seek God?
They were saved the same as we are today...under the covering of the new covenant. The Holy Spirit had written the law of God into their hearts...they were counted righteous because of their faith. Their actual salvation was postponed until the resurrection of Christ.
Its the same story today...the Holy Spirit works in the hearts of the elect drawing them to Christ and granting the faith to believe.
I know this is not what you want to hear but thats the way it is.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 11:24:42 PM
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Sola37
Posts: 18
Joined: 7/19/2008
Status: offline
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The heart of God
Anyone who reads the Bible should be able to see the heart of God when it comes to man. His heart is full of love and He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. His desire is for all men to be saved, and if you simply read the Bible you can see Gods heart pouring out to man, not just warning Him of judgement but also expressing His love and desire for a true loving relationship. There can only be true loving relationship if man chooses it , he cannot be forced into it. The heart of God contradicts Calvinism. He warns,pleads,reasons with man to choose Him, He does not simply "decree" mans obedience and love. Yes God could force everyone to obey Him but love is always a choice. And clearly God wants mans intimate love, not just his obedience.
Examine Jeremiah 3 as an example:
19 "I myself said,
" 'How gladly would I treat you like sons
and give you a desirable land,
the most beautiful inheritance of any nation.'
I thought you would call me 'Father'
and not turn away from following me.
20 But like a woman unfaithful to her husband,
so you have been unfaithful to me, O house of Israel,"
declares the LORD.
Jesus expresses the same exact heart in Matthew 23:
37"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
Most Calvinists seem to be aware that Calvinism doesnt make sense when examined along with the clear revelation of the heart of God , but they still conclude "The Bible teaches Calvinism so I must believe it. It doesnt make sense but I cant argue with the Scripture " Have you ever considered it doesnt make sense because Calvinism is false ?
< Message edited by Sola37 -- 7/23/2008 11:33:54 PM >
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 12:06:41 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1263
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: online
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Sola37,
quote:
Most Calvinists seem to be aware that Calvinism doesnt make sense when examined along with the clear revelation of the heart of God , but they still conclude "The Bible teaches Calvinism so I must believe it. It doesnt make sense but I cant argue with the Scripture " Have you ever considered it doesnt make sense because Calvinism is false ?
I did not see exactly where in your post you had shown that Calvinism is false.
I assume by "Calvinism" you mean TULIP?
TULIP makes sense to me.
I also understand free-will theories in that I can make sense of them even though they are not Biblical.
I dont think any Calvinist would claim that God does not love.
Does this text also show the heart of God?
11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger."
13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
I see both "loved" and "hated" mentioned in the text.
KJB
_____________________________
"The natural man receives not the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 12:12:06 AM
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Sola37
Posts: 18
Joined: 7/19/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
Sola37,
quote:
Most Calvinists seem to be aware that Calvinism doesnt make sense when examined along with the clear revelation of the heart of God , but they still conclude "The Bible teaches Calvinism so I must believe it. It doesnt make sense but I cant argue with the Scripture " Have you ever considered it doesnt make sense because Calvinism is false ?
I did not see exactly where in your post you had shown that Calvinism is false.
I assume by "Calvinism" you mean TULIP?
TULIP makes sense to me.
I also understand free-will theories in that I can make sense of them even though they are not Biblical.
I dont think any Calvinist would claim that God does not love.
Does this text also show the heart of God?
11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger."
13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
I see both "loved" and "hated" mentioned in the text.
KJB
Context is always KEY :)
>> We read from Malachi 1:2 that God loved Jacob and hated Esau. Why is this
so? Jacob is such a deceiver yet God prefered him than Esau. Does this
mean that it is God's Sovereighty to choose who He wants to bless more and
who He blesses less? Yet, we also know that God does not practise
favoritism.<<
The expression "Esau I hated" does not intend to suggest that God held some
form of malice against Esau or that He held him in contempt. Neither does
"Jacob I loved" suggest that God loved the sins of Jacob (any more than Jno.
3:16 means that God loves the sins of the world because He loves the world).
You are on the right track when you speak of the sovereignty of God. God
has the right to choose who He will use to accomplish His purposes here on
earth, and on one occasion He choose Jacob rather than Esau. Romans 9:8-13
explains that God's choice was made before they were born, so it had nothing
to do with their "good or evil," but everything to do with God's sovereign
right to choose (elect) who He would use to accomplish His purposes (cf.
Rom. 9:11).
Since the choice being discussed did not involve Jacob and Esau's condition
of goodness or evil, the text is not discussing their eternal salvation,
only that God made a choice one (Jacob, along with his descendants) and not
the other (Esau and his descendants) to fulfill the divine purposes of God
(Messiah, etc.) This answers the idea of divine favoritism: God choice was
not regarding their salvation, but their place in accomplishing the divine
purposes of human redemption (sending Christ into the world). All their
descendants will be saved in exactly the same way: faith in Christ and
obedience to His gospel (Rom. 11:25-36).
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 1:36:39 AM
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Sola37
Posts: 18
Joined: 7/19/2008
Status: offline
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When a Calvinist sins, did God "decree" it , or does the Calvinist freely choose to sin ?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 1:50:45 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3653
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
I believe you have misunderstood me, and it seems you have made some bad inferences as a result.
At no time in my response did I say "always" or "all the time". My statement is that without the Spirit, I couldn't do any of these things ever. With the Spirit, I can. Sure I slip up, but I can actually do them.
Perhaps there is misunderstandings on both sides.
Calvinism doesn't teach that men never seek God. That would be crazy.
I agree. But I suggest you check out the posts of KJB, Manna, and kelman, who have been constantly attacking my pov that man can and does seek God. You know, FG, for one who is always accusing everyone of "not paying attention" - you ought to heed your own "advice".
Had you "paid attention" you would have seen that I've said man CAN seek God; but, man canNOT seek God the way God commands - with his whole heart.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 2:13:43 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3653
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Of course, there is support that the Gospel is what being spoken about. Paul says in the very first verse "And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God." Do you reject that what God makes evident to everyone per Rom 1 does NOT count as a testimony? LOL...come on FG, it's perfectly clear what Paul is talking about in verse 1 - and it's not stars, sun or mountains - it is the GOSPEL. Since creation is evident why would Paul haved | | |
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