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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 7:46:08 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2023
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
rwe2156,
The way for us humans to know when something has been decreed
to happen is when we see that it happened.
It is at that time it is obvious it was decreed to happen.
KJB
And what do we do in the meantime, KJ, pray for what?
Please tell my why this thinking wouldn't ultimately lead to fatalism.
Your mindset must be "It has already been determined. I am just an observer."
Why would there be any purpose to witness to someone one more time?
Who am I trying to convince, a man, myself, or God? Why wouldn't God have
saved them after the first (or fifth) time they heard the gospel?
Chalking it up as a mystery does not satisfy the fact that the Bible says God
desires for all men to come to repentance. God cannot desire what he has
already determined will happen - it is completely illogical to me.
Why, for a Calvinist would answer to prayer be nothing more than a
harmony or coinciding of a their desire/hope/plea with God's decree, rather than
a response of God to a truly repentant heart whereby the object of his
grace is assured He is "with them".
What about God giving us the desires of our hearts? Why did Jesus pray for believers?
Why are we told the prayers of "a righteous man availeth much"?
Doesn't eternal decreeism ignore the fact that God can change his mind
in response to true, heartfelt prayer?
KJB, etal. I asked you what do you pray for and why do you pray for it. Care to answer?
Please tell me what intercessory prayer can mean to an eternal decreeist.
Praying for something that has already been determined accomplishes .... what?
In my current study, Amazing Grace: God's Initiative - Our Response by
Timothy George, he makes this statement in the last chapter on "Living by Grace", p. 115:
"Still, though, the question persists: If God is truly omniscient, knowing everything that
will happen before it occurs, why should we pray?"
I think this is a slightly different view - a view of prayer based on foreknowledge
and not decree. Seems George is either skirting the issue or doesn't really believe
eternal decree theology. Seems he is saying foreknowledge isn't predetermination.
He goes on: "What difference do our prayers make? Wouldn't everything turn out
just the same if we never prayed at all?
KJB, etal - Please comment on this question. What is the purpose, if God has
predetermined everything that will happen?
FYI, here is George's response:
"God foreknows and chooses the means as well as the end, and our prayers
are one of the foreordained means He has chosen to bring to pass what He has
sovereignly intended."
So God has foreordained everything, which means even our prayers are
predetermined, right? Please explain what sense this makes. Do you
REALLY think God manipulates his creation to this extent? If so, how can you
place any meaning on the fact that God command, desires, waits, rejoices
and even changes his mind if everything has been predetermined?
BUT - if everything is simply foreknown by God it seems to make more sense, no?
If God foreknows a certain man will come to faith, his patience makes sense, no?
He would hear the prayers and honor the witness of faith by someone, no?
I do not understand how this helps explain why a decreeist would place any
value on intercessory prayer.
Why would you pray for God to turn someone's heart if God has already
predestined them to unbelief?
Sorry for the length. I have a lot of questions.
Next up: Why would a Calvinist have a passion for souls if every man who
will be saved has already been chosen by God?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 7:58:48 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2023
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
that is where reformed theology becomes ( i will gladly give it the benefit of the
doubt by suggesting it's my fault ) way over my head. How can C view assume
that we sin ( or make any other choice) by FW, yet say that the results are preordained by God?
I don't think it is really that difficult, dear.
If you say God predetermines everything and causes everything to occur,
he MUST be the determiner and originator of the only thing he hates.
It boils down to the character of God and whether you can get your mind
around the concept of permissive will: nothing happens without the foreknowledge
of God, but evil originates outside of God, he allows it to happen, and yes - might
even use it for his own glory. But more often than not evil is just what it is: evil,
the absence of God, the opposite of God, the "other realm" of Satan.
Does one view God as allowing Satan to "have his way" with Job, albeit
with a certain limitation placed (do not kill him).
Or does one view God whispering in Satan's ear the next evil to perpetrate?
quote:
Who is the cause?
If we(in C view) are to say that God preordaining who will believe makes
the glory go to God why is God preordaining someones sin doesnt make
him the one to blame?
The only answer they have is "It doesn't make him the author of evil".
Read the Westmin Confession.
Simply giving a disclaimer or saying it isn't so doesn't get it for me.
My faith is in the Bible and God, not a doctrine.
The really choice thing, it they immunize God from their own doctrine
by putting the blame on the man
CLAIMING HE HAS FREE WILL!! Read the Westy Conf
"not do violence to man's free will" is what they say........
Is this is a shaky foundation, a crumbling pillar on which election falls?
They HAVE made God the orchestrator, perpetrator and author of evil.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 8:41:48 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1442
Joined: 12/2/2006
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rwe2156,
quote:
Read the Westmin Confession.
Simply giving a disclaimer or saying it isn't so doesn't get it for me.
My faith is in the Bible and God, not a doctrine.
You have faith in the will of men.
It is you that has faith that the will of each man will save each man as each man faithfully turns to Christ to save himself.
The will of man is the solution.
quote:
CLAIMING HE HAS FREE WILL!! Read the Westy Conf
"not do violence to man's free will" is what they say........
Actually, there is a chapter on free-will;
Chapter 9
Free Will
1. God has endowed the will of man with such natural liberty that it is neither forced nor—by any absolute necessity of nature— determined to good or evil.
2. Man, in his state of innocence, had freedom and ability to will and to do what was good and well-pleasing to God, and yet not unalterably, so that he might fall from it.
3. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has completely lost all ability to choose any spiritual good that accompanies salvation. Therefore, an unregenerate man, because he is opposed to that good and is dead in sin, is unable by his own strength to convert himself or to prepare himself to be converted.
4. When God converts a sinner and brings him into the state of grace, he frees him from his natural bondage to sin, and by his grace alone he enables him freely to will and to do what is spiritually good. Yet, because of his remaining corruption, he does not perfectly nor only will what is good, but also wills what is evil.
5. The will of man is made perfectly and unchangeably free to do good alone, only in the state of glory.
quote:
They HAVE made God the orchestrator, perpetrator and author of evil.
I have always noticed it is Arminians and Free-willers that cry the loudest and shout the hardest "unfair tyrant"......"unfair tyrant" when it is insinuated that God has imputed the unrighteousness of Adam upon all of mankind.
They have no problem at all with God imputing the righteousness of Christ Jesus upon the unrighteous.
It is because they always start from a premise that God owes them all things good as if He is in debt to them for some reason.
KJB
_____________________________
For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 8:41:50 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
FreeGrace;
quote:
All of this is reformed rhetoric.
Hardly.
You teach contrary to what Jesus taught so it is more like some sort of free-will rhetoric.
Jesus said;
"The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God".
Your presupposition is that God was actively blocking their hearing, right? Because they "belong" to Satan, they were paying attention to him, not to Jesus. Jesus was speaking to Jews in John 8. What did Paul say about those Jewish ancestors in Rom 10? v.16-19 answers the questions "did they hear" and "did they know". Yes, they did hear and know. But they didn't HEED what they had heard and knew.
quote:
You say;
quote:
I've given many verses from the OT that says the reason people don't hear is because they do not pay attention. Would you like them again?
Jesus said;
Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.
This is not an inherent lack of ability, but a willful (from choosing) type. I believe the reformed pov is man lacks inherent ability. Or, do you accept that it is a willful type of inability?
quote:
You always try to change it all around to say what you feel it should say.
I think most of the Bible is very clear and uses plain language to communicate. I think it is the RT pov that wants the Bible to say what its pov is.
quote:
ou say;
quote:
The many OT passages about the Jews not paying attention is very relevant.
How come He did not tell them that the solution was to pay attention?
I guess He must have been taunting them.
Speaking of taunting, how come you haven't addressed my question to you about why Jesus was taunting the Jews in John 8:24?
quote:
You act as if the things Jesus said are folly.
You are quite mistaken. Because Jesus not only gave the Jews a warning about the doom theywere headed for (dying in their sins), but also gave them the solution to that doom (believe in Me), He certainly wasn't taunting them, but giving them what they needed to know and do. That is the FW pov. It is YOUR POV that renders Jesus' warning with solution a folly, since the RT pov is that God alone "gives the faith to believe". Therefore, from [b[]YOUR POV Jesus' warning served NO PURPOSE other than to taunt them.
If you disagree with this, please explain thoroughly why the RT pov doesn't make Jesus' warning simply a taunt.
quote:
You preaching totally other than what Jesus said shows you are a preacher that preaches the doctrines of men......which is folly.
"totally other than..."?? Why don't you pay attention? Jesus warned those Jews and even provided for them the only solution to their problem. Why can't you explain that?
quote:
Now you try to shift into a back-peddle gear by adding the word "inherently" as if it shows all the error.
OK, please define inability then. Do you mean unable from an unwillingness, or unable from inherent lack of ability?
Here is what Jesus said......you are unable to hear......
quote:
If they could hear I am sure Jesus would have given them the solution.
Isn't that interesting! He actually DID just that earlier in the passage. What say you?
quote:
Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you need to pay attention.
That would have been giving a solution to the PROBLEM.
Yes, He DID GIVE THE SOLUTION to the problem.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 8:44:28 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1442
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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rwe2156,
I already gave you examples and made it clear that God has ordained the use of prayer.
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness.
We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.
And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will.
KJB
_____________________________
For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 8:59:41 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
FreeGrace,
quote:
This response doesn't answer the WHY of Jesus giving them the solution. Since your pov is that they cannot do it, it seems that He was only taunting them, then. Please explain how it isn't a taunt. Or do you really think that He was just taunting them about something they were unable to do?
I have told you. Even if you seem to think it is or was a taunt.....it is not a taunt.
It is only a taunt from the RT pov, whether you can grasp that or not.
quote:
I dont need to explain how it was not a taunt.
Yes, you do. But, seems obvious that you are unable to do so. Since your pov is that God gives the faith, why did Jesus bother telling those Jews to believe in Him to avoid the doom they were facing? That DEMANDS AN ANSWER that your pov cannot answer. But, FW pov provides a very clear answer. Man is able to believe and Jesus gave them the solution to their problem so they could avoid the doom they were facing.
quote:
I just read the text and agree with what it says and love it exactly how it is.
What is your point? I claim the same thing.
quote:
You read it and interject all kinds of "freely feely stuff" into it so it is acceptable to you and your POV.
Please explain your "freely feely stuff". What does that mean, and please provide an example of what you think I've posted that fits your definition of it.
quote:
I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."
Where does that text claim that they are or are not able to do anything? It doesnt.
The very fact that Jesus not only pointed out the danger (doom) they were facing, He also gave them the solution to their danger. That in itself demonstrates that they were able to apply the solution to avoid the danger. Yet, it is RT pov that no one can believe unless God causes them to believe. So, RT pov renders Jesus' warning with solution merely a mean and nasty taunt to them, since, according to RT pov, they have no ability to believe.
quote:
Does the text claim Jesus is or is not taunting them?
What you have flatly rejected or ignored, is that Jesus warned them of impending danger/doom and gave them the solution to their problem. It is the RT pov that renders Jesus' warning with solution merely a mean and nasty taunt.
quote:
That is not a text that you can use to build a gigantic theolgical study book out of with mountains of free-will doctrine. The text says nothing about human ability or human disability at all.
When someone gives a warning AND the solution to the problem, that in itself shows that the warned one is able to apply the solution and avoid the danger.
quote:
All it does is give truth.
Right. Which is: IF they believed in him, they would NOT die in their sins. He gave them the solution, BUT they would have to apply that solution to avoid the doom they were headed for. That's the truth that your reject/suppress by your RT pov.
quote:
You are trying to add free-will doctrine to the text but that specific text says nothing about mans will.
I've added nothing. You have, by your pov, attempted to REMOVE it from the text.
Let me give you a real clear example. IF I saw a truck coming at you, and only said, "watch out" or "be careful" without specifying what the danger was, what good would that warning be? Not good at all. You still could get hit by it.
Now, what if I actually told you what the danger was? Then, you would be able to avoid the danger by being aware of it and taking action to avoid it.
Further, if I could see which way you needed to jump in order to avoid the truck, but didn't tell you which way, what good would that be? Not good at all. You still could get hit by it, if you jumped the wrong way.
But, if I told you [b[]specifically which way to jump'/b] to avoid the truck, what have I done? I have done EXACTLY WHAT JESUS DID WITH THE JEWS HE WAS WARNING. He gave specific directions to avoid the doom. If they weren't able to apply those specific directions, please explain why He bothered.
quote:
You dont need to add free-will theories to the truth to read and know the truth.
On the contrary. You don't need to vigorously attempt to remove the evidence of freedom of choice to the Truth of Scripture.
quote:
Just read it for what it says;
I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.
Simple truth.
Yes, it is. Jesus not only gave them a very specific warning about what they were facing, He also gave them the specific solution to their problem that they needed to apoly in order to avoid that doom. Yet, it is your RT theory that claims that faith only comes from God, so they couldn't apply the solution that Jesus gave them. iow, He was then, according to your RT theory, only taunting them.
quote:
quote:
That is one of my huge disagreements with reformed theology.
And I disagree with people adding to what is plain and true.
And I very strongly disagree with people who vainly try to remove what is plain and true from Scripture, as RT pov does.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 9:06:32 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
What is the point in me praying for my 86 year old
father that he might repent, if God has already
determined to not enable him too?
First and foremost because it pleases God...
Btw... What is the point in praying to God given that the Free Will Doctrine states that God has already done all that is needed for salvation and man must make the pivotal choice?
That's a silly argument. What is the point in praying to God given that the RT pov states that God has already chosen who will believe and there isn't any reason to pray for anyone to be saved, since it has already been determined.
quote:
God knows who will and will not believe, so if one is bound to hell what is God going to do? Interfere with man's free will?
You are quite inconsistent here. Of course God knows. But the RT pov is that God has already determined who He chose to believe. So why do you bother to bring up God's omniscience when your pov hangs totally upon His sovereign choice of who He chose to believe? It is the FW pov that says that God knows who will or won't believe.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 9:10:42 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
Diolectic,
quote:
Still, you have God decreeing/ordaining Adam to sin, and all mankind to sin for that matter.
It don't matter if God didn't decree things because of what He saw Adam and the rest of us do, He still made us to sin by His decree/ordaining.
And so what IF He did?
IF He did do such a thing......so what?
You keep going on and on and on and on with this like it has some sort of gigantic meaningful message.
If He did ordain you to sin.....what are you going to do?
Well, at least you are admitting that your pov is that God causes us to sin. Your pov is not only unBiblical, it is totally blasphemous.
Man sins because he himself causes his sin. We chose not only to sin, but exactly what sins we commit. God created mankind free to sin. And sin he does freely. The FACT that you sin is proof that you have freedom of choice. And that freedom of choice GOES BOTH WAYS. Just as you are free to sin and rebel against God, you are also free to "consent and obey", just as Isa 1:19 states.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 9:41:56 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: balbas
Freegrace,
quote:
Please respond to the issue that Jesus provided the solution to their problem. Why, if the solution does not lie within themselves as something to choose? Not one reformist has even addressed this question.
How can one have such confidence in the flesh is hard for me to understand. Faith is not a simple thing to have. The bible calls faith a gift (1 Cor 12:9; Eph 2:8) which means IT IS NOT OF OURSELVES.
OK, if it is "not of ourselves" then please explain clearly WHY Jesus bothered to give the Jews the SOLUTION to their problem? For what purpose, other than just taunting them "while in their sins". btw, your pov renders them quite hopeless since they would have believed if God had chosen for them to believe. So, the only conclusion, based on your pov, is that Jesus was just being mean and nasty when He taunted them by giving them the specific solution to their problem, when they couldn't even appropriate it. Please explain that.
quote:
Too many things are working against the flesh from even having a tinge of faith in God. First man is carnal and in enmity with God (Rom 8:7). It does not subject itself with God. That alone tells us that the flesh does not and will not ever bend to the will of God. It also tells us that it can not do so, indicating inability.
If you are speaking of inherent inability, then please explain WHY Jesus gave them the exact solution to their problem? It makes no sense.
If you are speaking of the "inability" that comes from being unwilling, then you are admitting that man chooses whether to be willing or not.
Are you able to choose to whom you submit yourself? 
quote:
Now let me ask you a question. If you so believe that an unbeliever is capable of self-determination, then would praying for an unbeliever be even necessary?
Hold on. What do you mean by "self determination"? Unbelievers are free to believe and reject whatever they want. I do NOT believe in "self determination" if you mean that man determines what his environment will be.
quote:
If you do pray for an unbeleiver, what would you want God to do to him? What will be your prayer? Would you pray that God will overpower Him so that his heart may be open to the gospel? Would you pray for God to smother Him with His power and grace so that His unbelief may be overcome?
I pray what the Bible says. That the Holy Spirit would convict them of their sin, their unrighteousness, and their judgment, per John 16:8. I pray that God would send witnesses to them, per Rom 10:13-16.
quote:
I believe that would be my prayer. I will pray for all the power of God to come down to my neighbor so that his rebellion may be ended and become a son of God because I know he will not repent. For in every man the shackle of sin is strong!
Yet, it is man who "presents himself to the one he obeys as a slave", per Rom 6:16.
quote:
I believe that the will of man is free to choose what ever the heart is pleased to choose and since sin is the only principle that drives his desires, what please him is what he will choose. He is so blind to sin that he stumbles and does not recognize the light. Unless the Spirit enables the heart to function for God, man will never believe.
I believe this is just reformed rhetoric. We know that God created mankind to seek Him. That strongly indicates that he created man with the ability as well.
quote:
That is why faith is a gift from God and not a natural act of man.
You misunderstand Eph 2:8. Salvation is the gift, just as we read in Rom 6:23.
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There just isn't any Scripture to support regeneration preceding faith. There are scriptures that support man's incapacity. There are scriptures that tells us that this is the very reason for unbelief. There are scriptures that support how dead man is towards spiritual things. A dead man needs life before it ever sees the beauty of Christ. His eyes are lifeless, it does not see. What does he need then to acknowledge the glory of Jesus? Life! There must be blood pumping in that stoney heart before the eyes can open. There must be blood running though him before he can ever see. How can he believe something he cannot see and cannot hear? He does not have the eyes to see nor the ears to hear.
Much of this is reformed rhetoric. And none of what you say here supports or proves that regeneration precedes faith.
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For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him Philippians 1:29
Are you aware of the meaning of "grant"? It means to give to the one asking.
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As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. Eph 2:1-5
The main point of Eph 2 is the contrast between two positions: either one is dead in their sins, or alive with Christ. The concept of "dead" is really about separation, ie: the soul and the body in physical death.
Unfortunately, the reformed misunderstand what "dead in sins" means, and have come up with the nonsense that the spiritually dead cannot respond to God until they are regenerated. The point of "dead in sins" means separated from God.
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I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you... Ezek 36:26,27
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. John 6:63
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God 1 John 5:1
I see nothing in these verses to prove or even support your pov.
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quote:
He does. God created mankind to seek Him, Acts 17:27. God has revealed His exitence to mankind so that man has no excuse for not seeking Him Rom 1:19-21. Therefore, man is able to seek God. He was created to do so, and because God revealed His existence to man, man has no excuse for not seeking Him.
The scripture you mentioned do not support ability. The acts 17 quote indicated "should" but not "can".
Actually, in the Greek text, there is no "should". It just says "to seek". So, you support the idea that God created man for the purpose of seeking Him but without the ability to do so? Why?
quote:
The Romans 1 quote indicate manifestations of God with man's darkened undertsanding.
Romans 1 is quite clear. God has made Himself evident to mankind, so that He is clearly seen, to use the very words of the text. The result of that is that man is without excuse for not seeking Him, which, in the text, is suggested by "recognizing God as God, and being thankful".
quote:
The first quote is the same as Ezek 18:31...Get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. Both are actions that God can only perform. Such also are the commands of God to be perfect and to be holy. Both are required of us and never achieved by the flesh.
The FW pov agrees that it is God alone who regenerates the person. We can't do it.
quote:
quote:
First, we are not "crippled". We are sinful. There is no equivalence. Man is separated from God due to his sinful condition (dead in sins). Those who believe in Christ are made alive in Christ.
At first I thought this was a light hearted banter. But I soon realize the you are very serious about it. The reason for my reaction is that being sinful cripples us.
What support for that do you have?
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Being sinful is the one the makes us stumble. Being sinful is the reason we are incapacitated.
Stumbling does not equate to being crippled or incapactitated, if you think so.
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Yes, it does drive a wedge between us and God but it is not only God that declares enmity, it is also us being sinful beings. We hate the light because we are lovers of sin.
The "wedge" is Adam's original sin, which contaminated the human race with the sin nature. But that didn't change the fact that God created mankind to seek Him, and is able to either believe or reject what God makes evident to him.
quote:
quote:
The natural ability has come from God. He created mankind to seek Him. If man is unable to seek God, apart from regeneration, how do you explain the fact that God created mankind to seek Him?
Actually, God created the universe and every creature, including man, for His own glory. We are created to worship God. We are created to serve Him. If we were all holy, we would not need to seek God because we would always find Him. We would always be loving His presence.
I don't see what point you are making. God created mankind to seek Him. Obviously He knew Adam would sin and contaminate the human race.
quote:
With regards to the responsibility of seeking God, I agree, all are equally culpable despite the fact that we are not all equally able. Actually what the bible tells us is that there is nothing that even resembles to ability.
Actually, the Bible gives plenty of support for the fact that man is able to respond to Him. We all face a choice when God makes evident Himself to us, so that it is clearly seen. We can either "consent and obey" or "refuse and rebel" all per isa 1:19,20.
When God makes Himself evident to mankind, THAT IN ITSELF creates the choice to either accept that as Truth, or reject/ignore that Truth.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 9:46:21 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Justification, forgiveness, salvation, and eternal life are based on our faith. You mention the "faith of Jesus"... Yes, I sure did mention it since the Bible is quite clear that it is the faith of Jesus Christ that justifies which means in canNOT be your faith.
Please notice those 3 little dots after "Jesus". Why didn't you deal with the verses I presented that link our forgiveness, justification, salvation and eternal life on what we believe? Can you be more honest here?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 9:54:20 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: kelman
Ah, but there's more to the FW pov, FG. And, it is this "more" which makes it an erroneous pov. FW believes that in its fallen state, in its desperately wicked and deceitful above all things heart, it can desire to choose for God.
God created mankind to seek Him. Are you saying that God failed in His attempt to create man to do something but "forgot" to give him the ability? Or, just couldn't get it to work? Nonsense.
No oversight on the part of God. He has prepared His plan of salvation so that all glory goes to Him not to men who think they can make the decision to become "adopted children of God".
How does this answer my question? Your pov is that man is unable to seek God, yet God created mankind to seek Him? You haven't explained why God would purpose for man to seek Him yet not give him the ability to do so. Can you answer that from your RT pov?
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Fallen man is not able to spiritually understand the things of the Spirit....intellectually?..yes; spiritually? ...never. Please show me one verse that differentiates between "intellectual" belief with "spiritual" belief. That is just made up nonsense from the RT pov to confuse the issue. Nope, the only "nonsense" is refusing to recogize the scriptual passages which show some "believers" who are not saved as those who Christ told "depart from me I never knew you".
He wasn't speaking to any believers when He said that. You are quite mistaken to think that He was.
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All of you RT types have admitted that God causes all things, because He is in total control, being sovereign. Since you reject freedom of choice, there is no other explanation for our sin other than God is the cause. Which is total blasphemy, imho.
Since God determined and ordained the Crucifixion is He the cause of that sin? No. Then you have agreed God can and does ordain that sin be committed by man.
No, I haven't. The crucifixion was the solution to mankind's problem of sin. That is what He determined and ordained. The sins involved were freely committed by all involved.
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When you sin, who "determined and ordained" it? You, or God?
If you say, you did, you prove freedom of choice.
If you say God did, you are accusing Him of causing sin.
You need to make up your mind. Was God the first cause of the sin of Judas or not?
You've only dodged my question. Who determined and ordained (causes) your sins? Yourself or God?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 10:08:45 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
God made certain that there would be sin, but is not the author of it.
If He is the One who "made certain there would be sin", then just who is the author of sin? Whoever "makes certain" that something happens is the author of it.
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So, I agree, that God does not cause man to sin – He does not force man to sin – man does this of His own volition. Man is responsible for his own sin and is without excuse for his sin. But it is God who decreed that there would be sin. Truly a mystery.
You are being quite inconsistent here. You admit volition on the part of man. That is free will. Definition: act of the willing, exercise of the will. Yet, you RT pov denies free will. You are confused.
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Actually, you have to "assume" that God caused him to believe, when there is no suggestion or hint of it. There is no suggestion or hint in Acts explaining how Cornelius came to believe one way or the other. Any conclusions about the cause of Cornelius believing must be found in other passages, such as 1 Cor 1-3, 2 Cor 4, Romans 1 . . .
The textof Acts 10 is very clear that when the angel presented divine Truth to Cornelius, he immediately acted upon it, demonstrating quite clearly that he believed the angel.
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From Romans 1, it is FACT that God has made evident His existence so that it is clearly seen, leaving man without excuse for not seeking Him. One has to presuppose that freedom of choice doesn't exist to NOT see man's freedom of choice in the passage.
I agree that freedom of choice is in the passage. I have never disagreed with that. The point that I disagree with you is that some DO choose to honor God based upon that which God made evident of Himself in creation. That concept is found nowhere in Romans 1.
The principle of "freedom of choice" is there, as you admit, which renders you inconsistent. The "concept" of that freedom of choice is seen in the life of Cornelius, which you reject.
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The topic is much greater than the existence of God as Creator, but is why Paul is eager to preach the gospel: it the power of God for salvation for all who believe and it is this way because it has been revealed from faith to faith. The need for the gospel has been revealed from heaven – God’s wrath, which men deserve for they have not honored God in a way that is appropriate to the revelation of His character and attributes found in creation.
I don't argue with any of this. Yet, you deny the specific points I've pointed out that come directly from the passage.
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Paul is not saying that they didn’t honor the existence of God, but that they did not honor Him as who He is – God. All men have lesser views of God than He is in reality; the natural man belittles God. Fallen man may acknowledge the existence of God, but he does not honor God in a way that is due His glorious and holy name.
The error is in thinking that Paul was describing everyone in humanity. God created man to seek Him, and therefore, man HAS that ability to do so, as Cornelius clearly demonstated.
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The knowledge of God’s glorious attributes seen in creation (v20) should lead all men to honor Him (give glory to Him due His glorious being) in a way that is agreeable to His holy character. It should lead all men to give thanks to Him.
And... Cornelius did exactly that.
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When you say,
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Those terms describe what one would do when seeking God. First, they must believe that He exists (Heb 11:6b) and then "being thankful" indicates seeking Him.
introduces a thought that is foreign to the passage. Being thankful does not indicate seeking God, but indicates the acknowledgment that God is the provider of all that we are and all that we are in need of.
Again I disagree. What else can "being thankful" refer to, except that one is thankful that God revealed Himself as Creator, so that because know that I know He exists, I can seek Him. How could "being thankful" NOT lead to seeking the Creator of the universe?
What do you think "being thankful" means?
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Giving thanks is the appropriate response to the glorious revelation of God made evident in creation.
Sure it does. Now, give me an example of how that is demonstrated in one's life. I've already given you the example of Cornelius. Now you tell me how that is demonstrated, if not by the life of Cornelius.
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Since you continue to think that everyone only dishonors and rebells against God, in spite of clear Scriptural evidence to the contrary, there seems no further point in this discussion.
You have brought no "clear" Scriptural evidence what so ever. Quite the opposite is true. A clear reading of Romans shows you are in error and the backing of the scholars you brought into the argument also show you to be in error.
Paul's direct words do not show me to be in error. I can't help your scholars or you. We are at an impasse. We disagree with each other on how to understand what Paul was saying. Too bad.
Concerning your scholars – it was you that brought them into the argument, not me. But the fact is, your scholars disagree with you and prove you to be in error. You pit yourself up against the translators and scholars who have brought us the major translations and paraphrases in use today. Yes, it is too bad.
The reason there is no further point in this discussion with you is your refusal to recognize what Cornelius demonstrates.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 10:18:19 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: SureHope
FG.
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And your statement "made willing by God" means force
Yes, the power of the Holy Spirit. He changes the heart, He causes sinners to see their sin and repent, he causes men to walk in His statutes, He works in men to will and do of His good pleasure. That is power, that is a mighty force that changes a person to want God, to hunger and thirst after righteousness and desire, enjoy and love God. That is quite a force indeed.
Our primary disagreement is that I believe that the Holy Spirit does enable those willing to submit to God's plan. You reject that man is able to do what God created man to do, until God "makes him" do it. And, only certain ones at that.
I reject that man DOES that which God has created him to do.
Yet, cornelius demonstrated an unregenerate man who DID. Also, you can't explain what purpose God would have in creating mankind to seek Him, without the ability to do so.
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The pinnacle of God’s law is to love Him with every fiber of your being. This is God’s ultimate command. All other commands are wrapped up in this one command to love God. Man does not do this. Why not? Is he able to do so? Yes, he is able in the sense that he has a will, but he chooses not to love God with all his heart, mind soul and strength.
I don't recall any response on your part of 1 Kings 11:4. Do you have one? What does "wholly devoted" mean to you? David was, and Solomon was not. Explain that.
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So, man is unwilling to fulfill God’s purpose for man which is to love God with all of his being.
Your statement here contradicts RT and supports FW. The issue of being willing or unwilling is one of choice. There is no choice is there is no ability. Your statement supports the fact that man has ability and chooses not to use it. Yet, we know from Scripture that some DO exercise their ability, like Cornelius.
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But some men try to love God in this way and find themselves unable (which you have admitted about yourself). Is their inability based upon not having the faculties needed to obey? No, their inability is based upon their unwillingness to do so. What hinders man from loving God with all heart, mind, soul and strength is choosing things such as envy, strife, bitterness, revenge, pride, self exaltation, selfishness, etc. Man’s inability is directly connected to his unwillingness.
Please explain "wholly devoted" from 1 Kings 11:4.
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God makes man willing, by the power of the Holy Spirit in the heart of man.
Yes, I know all about your theology of force. 
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At least you acknowledge that she faced a choice. Why can't you face the fact that when God makes evident Himself to mankind, man is also faced with the choice, to either believe that evidence that has been clearly seen, or to reject that evidence?
I have always acknowledged that every person on the face of the earth is faced with a choice. That should not be anything new to you.
And you claim you have been clear. Well, guess what! It's news to me.
I guess you are reading last years news for I have been very clear on this for quite some time (at least a year).
The foundational understanding of FW is choice. So, why are you so argumentative, if you agree with choice?
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Yes, ALL sin. ALL are under sin. Yet, God created mankind TO seek Him and because He has revealed Himself to mankind so they would seek Himn, no one has any excuse for not doing so.
All are without excuse for sin. Romans 1 does not address seeking God. It is your conclusion that is not based upon what the Bible states.
By simply comparing Scripture with Scripture (Acts 17:27) we know that mankind was created to seek God. Since God has made Himself evident to man, the only obvious purpose is so that man can know He exists and is presented with the choice to either seek Him or reject/ignore Him. And you have admitted that man IS faced with that choice. So, you have agreed with the FW pov, and contradicted the RT pov with your agreement.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 10:56:13 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4385
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
It boils down to the character of God and whether you can get your mind
around the concept of permissive will: nothing happens without the foreknowledge
of God, but evil originates outside of God, he allows it to happen, and yes - might
even use it for his own glory. But more often than not evil is just what it is: evil,
the absence of God, the opposite of God, the "other realm" of Satan.
Does one view God as allowing Satan to "have his way" with Job, albeit
with a certain limitation placed (do not kill him).
Or does one view God whispering in Satan's ear the next evil to perpetrate?
God's actions regarding Job makes it quite clear He used Satan as a tool to the degree that he controlled what Satan could and couldn't do...
John
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 11:12:00 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1684
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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FG asks the question :
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Please respond to the issue that Jesus provided the solution to their problem. Why, if the solution does not lie within themselves as something to choose? Not one reformist has even addressed this question.
And here's the thrust of the answer he gets :
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How can one have such confidence in the flesh is hard for me to understand. Faith is not a simple thing to have. The bible calls faith a gift (1 Cor 12:9; Eph 2:8) which means IT IS NOT OF OURSELVES.
No where does FG remotely express confidence in the flesh . Where did you even make a feable attempt to answer his question ?
Whats hard for me to understand is the constant misinterpretation of Scripture applied by Calvinists .
1 Cor 12:1-12 is speaking of spiritual gifts given to those who are already believers . Faith in v. 12 is not saving faith , it is also a faith that is not given to every believer ; as is quite clear from the verse To another faith ; this would be that faith that moves mountains or casts out demons as is evident from Matt 17:19 .
Furthermore , the IT IS NOT OF YOURSELVES , in Eph 2:8 , is not refering to faith but to salvation : salvation is what is not of yoursevles ; it is the gift of God .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 11:45:24 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2023
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
rwe2156,
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Read the Westmin Confession.
Simply giving a disclaimer or saying it isn't so doesn't get it for me.
My faith is in the Bible and God, not a doctrine.
You have faith in the will of men.
It is you that has faith that the will of each man will save each man as each man faithfully turns to Christ to save himself.
The will of man is the solution.
Thank you for telling what I believe and shame for being
so completely and knowingly off the mark.
I do NOT believe the will of man saves anyone.
I DO believe men have the ability to repent and have given
the Scriptural reasons why.
I am seeking answers and I am asking you AGAIN to
answer the questions in the post about prayer, not
commentary on what you think I believe.
I have no "faith in the will of man" - but I don't deny it exists.
Why is the opposite of sovereignty free will, KJB.
Why can't you see them as working together and not exclusive?
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Actually, there is a chapter on free-will;
Chapter 9
Free Will
1. God has endowed the will of man with such natural liberty that it is neither forced nor—by any absolute necessity of nature— determined to good or evil.
2. Man, in his state of innocence, had freedom and ability to will and to do what was good and well-pleasing to God, and yet not unalterably, so that he might fall from it.
3. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has completely lost all ability to choose any spiritual good that accompanies salvation. Therefore, an unregenerate man, because he is opposed to that good and is dead in sin, is unable by his own strength to convert himself or to prepare himself to be converted.
4. When God converts a sinner and brings him into the state of grace, he frees him from his natural bondage to sin, and by his grace alone he enables him freely to will and to do what is spiritually good. Yet, because of his remaining corruption, he does not perfectly nor only will what is good, but also wills what is evil.
5. The will of man is made perfectly and unchangeably free to do good alone, only in the state of glory.
Wicked man IS able to repent, commanded to repent, desired
to repent. God waits for him to repent, is joyful when he repents,
and even changes his mind when he repents.
So who believes the Bible and who believes a doctrine?
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They HAVE made God the orchestrator, perpetrator and author of evil.
I have always noticed it is Arminians and Free-willers that cry the loudest and shout the hardest "unfair tyrant"......"unfair tyrant" when it is insinuated that God has imputed the unrighteousness of Adam upon all of mankind.
They have no problem at all with God imputing the righteousness of Christ Jesus upon the unrighteous.
It is because they always start from a premise that God owes them all things good as if He is in debt to them for some reason.
A non-answer.
I would like to focus on the practical purpose of prayer for a Calvinist.
If you do not care to answer I don't think we will be able to have a discussion.
< Message edited by rwe2156 -- 8/7/2008 11:52:22 AM >
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 11:55:10 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2023
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
rwe2156,
I already gave you examples and made it clear that God has ordained the use of prayer.
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness.
We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.
And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will.
KJB
I don't deny we need the Spirit to pray, but what about
asking for the desires of our hearts?
What about "Ask and you shall receive"?
What about Jesus praying for believers in John 17?
What about "the prayers of a righteous man availeth much"?
Sure God ordains the use of prayer, but do you think God
has decreed every single word in every single prayer we
will ever pray?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 12:49:08 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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