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SuperFork -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/11/2005 2:41:36 PM)

quote:


On what basis is this ungodly? If a wife wants her husband MORE, what is wrong with that?



NOTHING if she is MARRIED and it is her HUSBAND she is thinking of....


But when someone is NOT married and they masturbate, think about sex, with a woman that they are NOT MARRIED TO...(like a made up fantasy woman in your head),
they are having sex outside of marriage, ADULTERY



wolfvanzandt -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/11/2005 7:06:08 PM)

quote:

Wolf: i Did provide scripture about what God said. um yea, God kind of intended for us to have sex inside marriage. i dont know what you mean when you imply it is not always sinful to have sex outside of marriage. sex binds a man and a woman and they become one flesh... And you ask me how fantasizing about sex is bad even if it is with a made up women? i already said in my post


Yes, but you only gave your opinions and scriptures that were not directly related to masturbation or fantasizing. As for sex outside marriage, I believe that God only intends us to have sexual intercourse with other (real people) in the context of marriage, but you are generalizing way beyond that when you say "sex" and include masturbation so I'll ask you again - can you reference any passage that indicates that all sex outside of marriage is wrong? I don't believe you can. I'm sure you can warp some passage to say what you want it to say - but show me something that speaks directly to it.

quote:

ADULTERY Voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a partner other than the lawful spouse.
I am not married to the made up women in my head but I HAD SEX WITH HER IN MY HEART LAST NIGHT....OH NOOO I HAVE JUST COMMITED ADULTERY...DIDNT Jesus SAY SOMETHING LIKE THAT IS A SIN? I HOPE NOT, BECAUSE THAT WOULD MEAN I HAVE SINNED !!

Better?


Not even close. You can't have sexual intercourse with anything that doesn't exist.

quote:

Suprefork, yer being obnoxious so let me turn that around to point at you, you can show some people the truth any number of ways and if it doesn't line up with their opinions, they will never accept it.

"God said dont murder BUT, its my opinion that you should murder thus GOD IS WRONG BECAUSE I DONT AGREE." There, thats how it should be said right?


Nope, because you're being sarcastic after you made oblique statement referring to people on this forum implying that they don't agree with you because they don't want to let go of a particular sin in their life. I believe what I believe because scripture and what I can observe lead me to believe what I believe.

quote:

There is no Biblical basis for that standard.


Wrong, Whatloveis, and this is it, from the Revised Standard Version

quote:

Leviticus 15:16 And if a man has an emission of semen, he shall bathe his whole body in water, and be unclean until the evening. 17 And every garment and every skin on which the semen came shall be washed with water and be unclean until evening. 18 If a man lies with a woman anf has an emission of semen, both of them shall bathe themselves in water, and be unclean until evening.


Notice that there are two cases described here. The first is the case where a man has an emission of semen alone (masturbation or, less likely, nocturnal emission, but it doesn't make the distinction. It applies to both.) The second case (vs. 18) describes sexual intercourse between a man and a woman.

Now, there are ways you can twist this verse around so that it doesn't say what it says but I've studied the back ground and this verse is talking about masturbation.

quote:

There are even ungodly sex therapists who recommend masturbation as a way of increasing sexual desire, not lessening it. This creates a vicious circle, like the junkie who craves a "fix," but is only temporarily satisfied.


Whatloveis, if you'd bother to check this out, you'd see that this particular statement is not being exactly above board. In addtion to what Dave said above, sex therapists suggest that, to increase the feeling of fullness in the prostate (desire, yes) and to increase the volume of ejaculate, to masturbate to the point of ejaculation without ejaculating. If you follow through with an orgasm, it reduces "desire".

quote:

Either way, the SOS passage is a very vague reference, that only has the smallest possibility of talking about M and perhaps it's only a retelling of her wet dream.


It's only vague if you don't bother studying the background of the passage - the study should also include common euphamisms in the ancient Hebrew.

The two are not even married in the Song until very late in the book. The rest is fantasizing.



SuperFork -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/11/2005 9:00:00 PM)

WOLF: WHAT? Yes you CAN have sexual intercourse with a woman that dosnt exsist if she EXSISTS IN YOUR HEART. IN YOU HEART MAN! She exsists in your heart and if you have SEXUAL INTERCOURSE WITH HER EVEN THOUGH SHE DOSNT EXSIST IN THE REAL WORLD IT IS THE SAME THING TO GOD. Because he looks at the HEART!!!!



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wolfvanzandt -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/12/2005 6:10:39 PM)

quote:

WOLF: WHAT? Yes you CAN have sexual intercourse with a woman that dosnt exsist if she EXSISTS IN YOUR HEART. IN YOU HEART MAN! She exsists in your heart and if you have SEXUAL INTERCOURSE WITH HER EVEN THOUGH SHE DOSNT EXSIST IN THE REAL WORLD IT IS THE SAME THING TO GOD. Because he looks at the HEART!!!!


If she doesn't exist in the real world, she doesn't exist. And you won't find what you posted anywhere in the Bible. Nor is it implied there.

quote:

Well, since I've been good about quoting evedence, upon request, from which I've drawn my conclusions...

Would you present your evedence(s) & source(s) for that information?

Usually, the average layperson, who even cares to read the Bible at all, doesn't look at concordances- especially for Old Testament verses.

And, if you're using CrossWalk's Bible study tools - please provide links to those web pages.


When I was at Auburn University, I had access to a very large research library. I no longer do, so, no, I can't provide you with references, but you might look into Strongs and notice that there is more broadness in the word the hebrews used for copulation (the King James translates both instances as "seed of copulation") than in ours. Basically, the white semen that is ejected at orgasm is "seed of copulation". The clear fluid that comes out before it is not. And that is why later translations translated the term simply as "emission" or "semen" and not "semen of copulation". King James' English would not have confused anyone of that time because they knew that it meant any semenal discharge. English has changed slightly.

As far as interpreting the first verse in the passage as any semen produced "solo" - there's no reason to assume that it only means nocturnal emission - the passage would have made the distinction if it had meant only that.

The very relevant fact is that masturbation has always been common and every other common sexual act considered to be a sin was mentioned specifically in the Bible. Masturbation was not. If God had considered it to be a sin, He would have included it like he did every other even slightly frequent sexual sin.

quote:

Looking at their origional understanding of what their understanding of sexuality should consist of, would be fairly rewarding.


A lot of my past references are long outof circulation but I have seen reference, on the Internet, of books about Hebrew sexual euphamisms. Thos ewould be very helpful in such a study. You might want to do a search on "Hebrew Sexual Euphamisms." I get as up to 5490 hits with that search.



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Elad02 -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/13/2005 11:24:37 AM)

If someone has a firm belief in something, they'll find ways to defend that belief. There is always two sides to the coin.

quote:

In this article he speaks about his concern about the addictiveness of video gaming, quoting a wide variety of statistics. To read them, click on the link above.

Mohler states:
quote:

"The physiology of video gaming is also of significant interest. After all, the endorphins released in the process of intense video gaming are the same chemicals released in the process of panic or sexual activity. As is now well known, these hormone releases can become addictive.

Dr. Maress Hecht Orzack, Director of the Computer Addiction Study Center and Clinical Assistant Professor at Harvard Medical School argues, 'These games are meant to be addicting.' Orzack blames parents for allowing their children to develop such addictions."


Now, if video games can be addictive because of the simple endorphins or 'rush' that gamers recieve by winning a challenging game, how much more can the orgasm produced by routine masturbation have a greater potential of becoming addictive?


I don't remember where I heard this, but according to some other study video games are actually good for people. They can teach important thinking/planning and problem solving skills.

quote:

Point: There is No medical need for masturbation.


There is no medical harm with masturbation either.



wolfvanzandt -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/13/2005 1:20:14 PM)

quote:

Now, if video games can be addictive because of the simple endorphins or 'rush' that gamers recieve by winning a challenging game, how much more can the orgasm produced by routine masturbation have a greater potential of becoming addictive?


That is very true. I mentioned in one topic that I was born without a psychological addicting mmechanism - that's basically the ability to create endorphins automatically on certain psychological cues. Then I said that that was not a good thing. The problem is that a lot of good things also cause endorphin release and that motivates us to do those good things - things such as social bonding. I don't bond "right" simply because I don't have the physiological imperative to do so.

Well, there are some things that we are "supposed to be addicted to". That avoids the necessity of intentionally getting up the motivation to do things taht are physiologically necessary. Masturbation is a maintenance function. It's something we should be doing occasionally so we are wired to feel the need to do it - just like we're wired to feel the need to eat, drink, interact socially, breathe, etc.

There are a lot of bad things that are addicting but just saying "addiction" doesn't necessarily mean "bad".

quote:

With all of the medical needs for masturbation that has been argued so far, would it still be physically ok to stop masturbating, for at least a month, 3 months, 6 months, or a year? or even forever?


If your goal is to prevent prostate cancer, then it would never be a good idea to stop having orgasms.

quote:

"In both men and women, the body naturally adjusts itself through periodic emissions of fluid during sleep. Sometimes, even these become an unnecessary source of guilt for people who do not understand what is happening."


That very statement should alert you that this man doesn't know what he's talking about. Most men and women never have nocturnal emissions after their early adulthood. If you are over 25, when was the last time you had one? Fact is, the research indicates that there is a physiological need to have frequent orgasms. I know a lot of doctors that operate on cultural assumptions rather than medical research. It's irresponsible, but it happens distressingly often, and I noticed where the article came from. I would suspect that Christians In Recocery would seek out the "experts" that supported their own views. The idea that masturbation is evil, irrational and unBiblical as it might be, is a very strong engrained notion in the (American?) church, so it doesn't surprise me at all to see "experts" in Christian publications trying to show that masturbation is bad.


quote:

If a guy has a wet dream twice a month- it would have the same medical advantages (for prostate health) as forcing that activity through masturbation.


No it wouldn't. The Australian reserach that I quoted on the big masturbation thread (that has disappeared - and I'm not going to go look it up verey time this topic comes up. If you really want to know the truth - look it up. It's easy enough to find on the Internet) compared men who orgasmed something like 12 times a month and those that orgasmes around 25 times a month and the more freqeuent group showed about a 30% less risk in developing prostate cancer than the other group. Twice a month won't do it.

quote:

Any medical need for masturbation is a myth- used to alleviate guilt by those who practice it.


Any doctor reporting that there is not a medical need for masturbation is ignoring the research in favor of their own opinions and should not be practicing.



jf12 -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/13/2005 5:29:50 PM)

I sometimes think of this:

If you masterbate, then there is a chance that God does not like what you are doing.

If you don't, there isn't a chance that God does not like what you are doing.

Just a thought.



PolarBear -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/13/2005 6:45:40 PM)

Personally, I don't think masturbation fits the profile of something God would consider a sin. He never says "this is a sin!" to annoy us or deny us pleasure. His mandates are always right on target with our needs, telling us to avoid things that will harm us. It is obvious why premarital sex is a sin -- it spreads disease, causes pregnancy in unfortunate situations where the kid won't have two married parents, it creates strong ties between people who are not married. Masturbation does none of that!

Given that, plus the medical evidence that some is beneficial, plus the statement in Leviticus 15:16 (which seems to say that it WILL happen and doesn't condemn it), I just don't see any reason to say it's a sin. Doing so would seem to "go beyond what is written," violating 1 Corinthians 4:6.



AlohaJoe -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/13/2005 10:22:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhatLoveIs

Any medical need for masturbation is a myth- used to alleviate guilt by those who practice it.


I'm glad someone can finally see through my facade and identify my true heart and motivations.



halcyon902 -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/13/2005 11:02:31 PM)

Oh my, all this talk of porn... excuse me. [sm=icon_smile_idea.gif]



DaveW -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/14/2005 9:26:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jf12

If you masterbate, then there is a chance that God does not like what you are doing.
If you don't, there isn't a chance that God does not like what you are doing.

I can understand the first statement.

However the 2nd makes a very unsupported assumption: That God does not want anyone to masturbate. What good father would want his children to go thru years of private agony when there is an easy solution? Would he be really pleased that people were not taking advantage of this relief by saying that dad was gonna be mad if they did?



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DaveW -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/15/2005 12:09:40 PM)

quote:

In the same way, God wants to speak to those problems that we have, that cause us to turn to masturbation - and destroy those problems from the roots up.

I have not known anyone who God has "healed" of a healthy libido. The push for orgasmic release is based in hormones. Why would God change up what He designed for our blood chemistry?



jf12 -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/15/2005 2:02:13 PM)

I have somewhat of a theory that I was pondering about.

God says that if you are burning with sexual desire and release, get married. There you can satisfy your sexual needs. However, for those who are too young for marriage, there are wet dreams for sexual release. Any thoughts?



DaveW -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/15/2005 3:16:16 PM)

quote:

However, for those who are too young for marriage, there are wet dreams for sexual release. Any thoughts?

Good idea, except for the facts that only 40% of guys seem to be able to experience wet dreams with the rest of us waking up just before the wet part; (NOT FUN!!!) and for those who DO get wet dreams they always seem to come days or weeks too late.



wolfvanzandt -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/15/2005 6:06:41 PM)

quote:

I sometimes think of this:

If you masterbate, then there is a chance that God does not like what you are doing.

If you don't, there isn't a chance that God does not like what you are doing.

Just a thought.


If you don't masturbate, there's a chance that God will not like you being suspicious of something He gave you to keep you healthy. If you do, you are that farther along in avoiding prostate cancer using what He gave you.

It's really got nothing to do with what God likes or doesn't like (If He didn't like you doing it, He would have told you not to do it in the Bible). It has everything in the world to do with what you want to believe.

quote:

God says that if you are burning with sexual desire and release, get married. There you can satisfy your sexual needs. However, for those who are too young for marriage, there are wet dreams for sexual release. Any thoughts?


The Bible also supports unmarried lifestyles. The "burning" is in lust. What happens in masturbation is not lust (although some floks like to twist the term around so that it's included in masturbation).



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DaveW -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/16/2005 10:01:44 AM)

quote:

Jesus said to the woman at the well, that he will provide the living waters that will quench any desire in her life for things other than God.


John 4 (NASB)
13 Jesus answered and said to her, "Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again;

14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."

15 The woman said to Him, "Sir, give me this water, so I will not be thirsty nor come all the way here to draw."

16 He said to her, "Go, call your husband and come here."

I do not see where you get that this will quench thirst for everything other than God. It seems apparent that she misunderstood him in just this way. "...so I will not be thirsty nor come all the way here to draw." Jesus corrects her by focusing on her lifestyle. Did she ever have to go back to that well? Unless He changed her physiology to not require hydraulic input, you bet she did. Jesus did not take away the need for water air food or sex. He never will, at least not in this life.



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wolfvanzandt -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/18/2005 5:49:27 PM)

quote:

However, when the good God given desire for sex, turns into a desire for sex outside of God's context (the context of marriage), it easily becomes sinful.


Again, you need to show that all sexual activity outside of marriage is sinful. You haven't shown that yet.

quote:

Was the woman's immoral relationship(s) God's best for her? Were they satisfying her?

Simple: No. God's will is to satisfy that God given desire for a good thing, in its right context.

In the same way: Is masturbation God's best for us? Does it truely satisfy us?


From the first and third statement, it sounds as though you're still assuming that msaturbation is immoral. If so, you haven't shown that. If not, the first statement is irrelevant to the third and I don't know what point you're trying to make here.

As for the questions, if God gave us masturbation to maintain our health (and there's plenty of indications that that is true), then it is God given and, therefore, His best for us. And it truely satisfies our need to prevent irritation in the prostate caused by not emptying it occasionally.



LivingForChrist07 -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/18/2005 6:27:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wolfvanzandt



As for the questions, if God gave us masturbation to maintain our health (and there's plenty of indications that that is true), then it is God given and, therefore, His best for us. And it truely satisfies our need to prevent irritation in the prostate caused by not emptying it occasionally.


Uh... Isn't that what wet dreams are for?



jf12 -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/18/2005 6:47:22 PM)

I just read that prostate cancer only kills 1% of people diagnosed after 5 years. So it's not like it's much of a death-causing ailment.



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