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wolfvanzandt -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/22/2005 6:34:18 PM)

You folks just discard the parts of a forum you don't want to see, don't you.

The Fact still remains that research shows that people that masturbate frequently have a 33% less chance of developing prostate cancer which is still a disease and something that is good to avoid and, yes, it does kill people. The fact also remain sthat, although there is evidence that it's good for you, there's no evidence that it's bad for you and the Bible speasks about it in neutral terms. It certainly doesn't condemn people for masturbating. The condemnation is just your own cultural imperative, Whatloveis; it has nothing to do with Christianity.

Whatloveis, I don't know if I've ever been in a funeral where the pastor brought up what might have been done to avoid the death. That's not a tradtional part of a funeral in the areas I've lived. They also don't include such information on tombstones - yer right, it's rediculous for you to have brouught that up.



jf12 -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/22/2005 8:12:42 PM)

Perhaps we must turn to our faith when we are unsure about a topic such as this, when it is not mentioned in the bible.



bassplayer4God -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/22/2005 9:25:21 PM)

It's a real fine line. If you are a single man or woman for that matter, it most likely wouldn't be sinful unless you were thinking of something really perverse or wrong while doing so. If you are married, and lets say you are away from home for a couple of days, and you masterbate while thinking of your spouse, no sin is comitted. Now if you are married and thinking of some one else, then it's a sin. If you don't have sex or masterbate, then you have wet dreams. Are they sinful too? You see, it can go on and on. I would say it is not sinful, but it should be kept private. If the bible doesn't mention it, neither should we.



DaveW -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/23/2005 3:21:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jf12

Perhaps we must turn to our faith when we are unsure about a topic such as this, when it is not mentioned in the bible.

Turn to what faith? Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. If it is not mentioned in the bible what do you have to base your faith on?



wolfvanzandt -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/23/2005 6:32:22 PM)

quote:

Perhaps we must turn to our faith when we are unsure about a topic such as this, when it is not mentioned in the bible.


But it is mentioned in the Bible. Haven't you read any of the thread?



nonkn4mer -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/24/2005 2:33:05 AM)

what about wet dreams? no physical action takes place but there must have been a subconscious lust for that to occur right?



wolfvanzandt -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/24/2005 6:01:47 PM)

Well, not really. Wet dreams are "pressure release valves". Sexual pressure builds up and you have a wet dream - lust or no - and wet dreams don't have to even be overtly sexual in content. But they tend to diminish and go away in early adulthood.



AVR1962 -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/24/2005 6:08:24 PM)

SuperFork.....good for your belief and stand on the subject of masturbation. I too was raised to believe the same. Dr. James Dobson preaches the same. Masturbation has many taboos placed on it, yes, like others have posted here. At the same time it causes many hard feelings within marriage. Men take the simple, fast and easy road rather than nurturing a real relationship and that is most unfortunate for a marriage.



BlackCapnHarlock -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/24/2005 11:55:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jf12

Well, this is my two cents. Masterbation can be divided into 2 groups: Lustful masterbation, and masterbation without lust, which IS possible, at least for me. Since lustful masterbation has lust, then it is obviously a sin. Lustless masterbation is a bit more trickier. Some say it defiles and makes unpure of the body, and not something that Jesus would like us to be doing. Others say that since there is no mention of it in the bible it is not a sin, among other arguaments. For me, even if I did masterbate without lust, I still feel a bit iffy, and I do not know why. It could be Gods way of telling me not to do it, or it could not be.

That's my say.


To me masterbation is a sin, unless it's done with a spouse in the intimacy of legal, GOD recognized marriage. All sexual activity should be done in legal, GOD recognized marriage, the bible never speaks of it being sanctioned by GOD otherwise.

To me all masterbation is lustful, men do it when we can't fulfill the sensual needs or desires we are having in our bodies and our minds.
That's the only reason folks do it (out of wedlock), becuase either they are too scared or incapable of having sex with the object or objects of their sensual and often too much sinful desires.



BlackCapnHarlock -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/24/2005 11:58:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AVR1962

SuperFork.....good for your belief and stand on the subject of masturbation. I too was raised to believe the same. Dr. James Dobson preaches the same. Masturbation has many taboos placed on it, yes, like others have posted here. At the same time it causes many hard feelings within marriage. Men take the simple, fast and easy road rather than nurturing a real relationship and that is most unfortunate for a marriage.


I've only had problems with "ejaculatory dreams" when I have watched pornography or sexual stimulating material and have dwelled on sexual thoughts. When I am focused in GOD as I am a majority of the time, I don't have those problems.

The bible would be 20,000 pages long if it included every single thing that's a sin, folks have had time reading it now and it's not that big of a book. We have to know in GOD what is and isn't acceptable. I have same arguments about folks with masterbation, strip clubs, pornography, alcohol use, and drug use (the bible doesn't say don't smoke weed) and stupidity like that.



cmayes -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/25/2005 1:25:08 PM)

Hey guys, I'm new and I have read almost all of this post and I couple of things come to mind. First of all in my humble opinion, I believe it is wrong. Some of you use the medical community to justify your position by saying it's a natural desire and we need it almost as much as we need food to survive and keep ourselves cancer-free. If that was the case, why didn't we need to do it for the first 15 years of our lives, or for the older generation of men, for the last 15-20 years of their lives?? You can get by just fine without it.
And with all of this talk about men, if it is so "healthy" for us to do it as many times as you say, what about the women? Is it ok for them not to do it 25 times a month to keep from getting some type of cancer? Or should they be out buying "toys" to make sure they get their monthly recommended amount of masterbation in too?
Just my opinion, but I think this verse is pretty clear:
Romans 13:14
But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
Masterbation is self-gratification at it's core. You can say that you don't have to lust to do it, but it is still self-gratification.



silvrstridr -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/25/2005 2:47:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cmayes

Hey guys, I'm new and I have read almost all of this post and I couple of things come to mind. First of all in my humble opinion, I believe it is wrong. Some of you use the medical community to justify your position by saying it's a natural desire and we need it almost as much as we need food to survive and keep ourselves cancer-free. If that was the case, why didn't we need to do it for the first 15 years of our lives, or for the older generation of men, for the last 15-20 years of their lives?? You can get by just fine without it.


When you're young your bawlz havent dropped. When your old your bawlz have dropped too far. In either case, your hormones have slowed down rapidly (or havent started yet).

quote:

And with all of this talk about men, if it is so "healthy" for us to do it as many times as you say, what about the women? Is it ok for them not to do it 25 times a month to keep from getting some type of cancer? Or should they be out buying "toys" to make sure they get their monthly recommended amount of masterbation in too?


Women don't have these hormones, and dont have anything coming "out" of them, they don't need to do it to releive anything, just pleasure.

quote:


Just my opinion, but I think this verse is pretty clear:
Romans 13:14
But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
Masterbation is self-gratification at it's core. You can say that you don't have to lust to do it, but it is still self-gratification.


I prefer this version: 14Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.

There are several verses like this, and we already established that masterbation with lust is sin because lust is a sin. Remove the lust, and its fine.



wolfvanzandt -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/25/2005 5:57:17 PM)

quote:

SuperFork.....good for your belief and stand on the subject of masturbation. I too was raised to believe the same. Dr. James Dobson preaches the same.


And I bet Mr. Dobson can't support his stance any better than the rest of the anti-masturbation people. Fcat is, the problem ya'll have with it is that it's been ground into your craniums since childhood so you believe it - but you don't have any real basis for believing it. Even "spiritual giants" like Brother Dobson are not immune to that kind of bias.

quote:

All sexual activity should be done in legal, GOD recognized marriage, the bible never speaks of it being sanctioned by GOD otherwise.


Neither does the Bible say that, "All sexual activity should be done in legal, GOD recognized marriage", or, at least, I haven't been able to get anybody to show it to me.

quote:

To me all masterbation is lustful, men do it when we can't fulfill the sensual needs or desires we are having in our bodies and our minds.
That's the only reason folks do it (out of wedlock), becuase either they are too scared or incapable of having sex with the object or objects of their sensual and often too much sinful desires.


Or they want to prevent prostate cancer.

quote:

The bible would be 20,000 pages long if it included every single thing that's a sin, folks have had time reading it now and it's not that big of a book.


Only every other kind of sexual activity outside of marriage that might even possibly considered objectionable was mentioned as such in the Bible. Masturbation was mentioned and only with instructions for cleaning up afterward - and yes it did occur quite often back then.

quote:

We have to know in GOD what is and isn't acceptable.


And there's no reason in GOD to think that masturbation is objectionable - especilly considering that the Bible talks about it in neutral terms.

quote:

If that was the case, why didn't we need to do it for the first 15 years of our lives, or for the older generation of men, for the last 15-20 years of their lives??


Children that young do not produce mature semen - that's the obvious answer. And men in the last 15 - 20 years of their life do develop prostate cancer whiich could probably be prevented by masturbatng.

quote:

And with all of this talk about men, if it is so "healthy" for us to do it as many times as you say, what about the women? Is it ok for them not to do it 25 times a month to keep from getting some type of cancer?


Well, if the original post was kept you and you bothered to read it, you would see that there are also health benefits for women. But since I'm not going to dig all those studies out again you will have to take my word for it, do your own research, or you might choose to remain in ignorance on the issue.

quote:

But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.


Which says nothing about masturbation because it is not a fulfilling of a lust although it is making a provision for the flesh in much the same way that eating and having frequent check ups is providing for the flesh.

quote:

Masterbation is self-gratification at it's core. You can say that you don't have to lust to do it, but it is still self-gratification.


So is eating a good meal, watching a good movie, or reading a good book.



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DaveW -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/26/2005 11:59:23 AM)

quote:

I bet Mr. Dobson can't support his stance any better than the rest of the anti-masturbation people.

It is Dr. Dobson and he was among the first to publicaly come out pro-masturbation in his 1976 film series "Focus on the Family." He caused a major stir and even received death threats from some in the anti-m crowd. He did it with such humility and conviction that it changed the official position of the congregation I was in - 1977 - about 3 months after I got married. The senior pastor actually apologised to the congregation for years of repression.



wolfvanzandt -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/26/2005 6:10:07 PM)

quote:

Is it hypocritical to demand something from others (ie. burden of proof), when you aren't doing it yourself?


No, because I've already dug it up multiple times for this forum and others and am getting very tired of it. Also, I'm not trying to prove anything to you - fact is, no amountv of evidence will convince most anti-masturbation people so it's sorta wasted energy. A lot of people who are on this thread was on the earlier masturbation threads. The reserach is very easy to find. If you really want to know what's going on, you'll expend a little energy and critical thinking to do so. If you don't, that certainly won't upset me any.


quote:

Is it hypocritical to demand something from others (ie. burden of proof), when you aren't doing it yourself?


Because I actually did the work and found the evidence. Since you can't even give me a good reason why you believe what you believe, why should I go with that?


quote:

Jesus, when asked for a sign to proove what He was saying was true, he called them "an unbelieving generation!"


Well, I'm not asking you to have that much faith in me. But I am telling you what research is out there and leaving it up to you to do the fairly simple job of tracking it down for yourself. In other words, you can check on my beliefs to verify them for yourself.

Thanks for the correction, Dave. I don't generally know Dr. Dobson's stance on masturbation but if he's willing to come out publically with an error in the church that would create such a stir - he's pretty courageous (but I did already know that about him.)



write2witness -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/27/2005 4:56:25 AM)

The Bible never specifically mentions masturbation or states whether masturbation is a sin or not. The fact that the Bible lacks mention of masturbation does not necessarily make it right. The Bible tells us to avoid even the appearance of sexual immorality (Ephesians 5:3). I do not see how masturbating can pass that particular test.

Sometimes a good test for whether something is a sin or not is whether you would be proud to tell others what you had just done. If it is something you would be embarrassed or ashamed about if others found out, it is very likely that it is a sin.

Another good test is to determine whether we can honestly, in good conscience, ask God to bless and use the particular activity for His own good purposes. I do not think masturbation qualifies as something we can be "proud" of or can genuinely thank God for.

- w2w



AlohaJoe -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/27/2005 6:04:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: write2witness

The Bible never specifically mentions masturbation or states whether masturbation is a sin or not. The fact that the Bible lacks mention of masturbation does not necessarily make it right. The Bible tells us to avoid even the appearance of sexual immorality (Ephesians 5:3). I do not see how masturbating can pass that particular test.


It's quite easy to avoid the appearance of evil by doing it in private.

quote:


Sometimes a good test for whether something is a sin or not is whether you would be proud to tell others what you had just done. If it is something you would be embarrassed or ashamed about if others found out, it is very likely that it is a sin.


I don't feel ashamed that I masturbate. I do feel pretty embarrassed farting in public or admitting that I've just thrown up. Are those sins?

quote:

Another good test is to determine whether we can honestly, in good conscience, ask God to bless and use the particular activity for His own good purposes. I do not think masturbation qualifies as something we can be "proud" of or can genuinely thank God for.


Kind of like farting and picking your nose. Man, I sin more than I thought I did.



AlohaJoe -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/27/2005 6:09:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wolfvanzandt
Thanks for the correction, Dave. I don't generally know Dr. Dobson's stance on masturbation but if he's willing to come out publically with an error in the church that would create such a stir - he's pretty courageous (but I did already know that about him.)


Pardon the double-post, guys. Wolf, here's an article in which Dr. Dobson gives his opinions about masturbation (not that he's necessarily an authority we should go to on the topic, but it's interesting to know his insights):

http://www.focusonyourchild.com/develop/art1/A0000553.html



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AlohaJoe -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/27/2005 7:18:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhatLoveIs

Guys don't pursue masturbation because it's healthy.


Rather presumptuous a claim about others' motives. This may or may not be true for some--it's certainly not my prime motivator, but I do view it as a physically healthy excercise--but it doesn't change the medical fact that it is physically healthier to masturbate (assuming you don't have a sexual partner) than to not.

quote:

It's not like taking a walk or any other form of exercise. Guys pursue masturbation because it's an easy way to acheive an orgasm for themselves.


Again, you presume to know other people's hearts and motives. So many of your posts indicate this. And as long as you're convinced that you know what everyone is thinking and feeling, it's almost impossible to have any kind of productive discourse with you. I masturbate not because I'm in constant need of ecstasy, but because the semen build-up in my body is uncomfortable and distracting, and I see no reason to be uncomfortable and distracted if I don't have to be. There are many times I wish I could just snap my fingers and make the "itch" go away, instead of having to masturbate to alleviate the pressure. If my body's not asking me to release my build-up, I don't scrounge for ways to titillate myself so I can "get off." I simply obey biology. And it happens to feel pretty darn good. And after I've masturbated, I'm much more comfortable , productive, and free from distraction.

quote:

If we are so consumed with taking care of our own needs for orgasm through masturbation- more than the needs of the poor & naked, & more than the needs of a God that demands our worship ... then it's out of place.


Of course. This is true of any activity. I don't know of too many people who can't minister to people or worship God because they're too busy masturbating. Personally, I think television, sports, and video games consume people's time and attention far more than masturbation does.

quote:

Anything that pushes God & our love for others out of our lives is itself idolatry- no matter the form it takes. If masturbation becomes "a god" to worship & trust more than God-The Father, then it's an idol.


It seems you have an aggrandized view of the consuming, idolatrous importance masturbation holds in many people's lives. Really, it's just something I do when the urge arises. If I feel like playing basketball, I play baksetball. If I feel like singing, I sing. What's so "consuming" about that?

You believe masturbation is a sin in and of itself, so doing it at all constitutes idolatry and "masturbation worship," from what your posts imply.



BlackCapnHarlock -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/27/2005 8:54:01 AM)

Some of these responses are shocking!! Some folks need to work on their spiritual levels for real.
Men, we are men, Christian men and we need to be honest, the only reasons we masterbate (when our spouse is not around) are because we 1. are sinfully lusting after a woman or women 2. or inspired by pornography or other sexual imagery 3. wishing we could be in adultery or fornication with a woman or women.

It's sin . . . with some of the logic that some folks have then oral sex isn't a sin or other sexual stimulation techniques that don't involve penal vaginal interaction . . .we have to realize this verse in proverbs

Proverbs chapter 5 verses 18-22

Pr 5:18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth.

Pr 5:19 Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love.

Pr 5:20 And why wilt thou, my son, be ravished with a strange woman, and embrace the bosom of a stranger?

Pr 5:21 For the ways of man are before the eyes of the Lord, and he pondereth all his goings.

Pr 5:22 His own iniquities shall take the wicked himself, and he shall be holden with the cords of his sins.



Elad02 -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/27/2005 9:58:58 AM)

quote:

Jesus stated that in all things we are to first love God, and others. Then, the very last thing we should ever think about is ourselves.


Jesus said we are to love our neighbor as ourself, implying that there is nothing wrong with loving yourself (no pun intended).

quote:

If we are so consumed with taking care of our own needs for orgasm through masturbation- more than the needs of the poor & naked, & more than the needs of a God that demands our worship ... then it's out of place.


I doubt that most people are that consumed by it. Believe it or not it is possible for someone who masturbates to worship God and care for other people.

quote:

Anything that pushes God & our love for others out of our lives is itself idolatry- no matter the form it takes. If masturbation becomes "a god" to worship & trust more than God-The Father, then it's an idol.


Who worships it? I would never have thought of it as something to worship.

You anti-m people seem to ignore natural body functions. To quote from the article by James Dobson posted above, "Eventually, the hormonal pressure accumulates until nearly every waking moment reverberates with sexual desire". It builds up over time and it's gotta go somewhere.

Every statistic I've seen says that 9x% of men do it, so I don't see it as anything other that just a natural occurrence.



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AlohaJoe -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/27/2005 10:32:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlackCapnHarlock

Some of these responses are shocking!! Some folks need to work on their spiritual levels for real.
Men, we are men, Christian men and we need to be honest, the only reasons we masterbate (when our spouse is not around) are because we 1. are sinfully lusting after a woman or women


Absolutely false. I do not fantasize about women when I masturbate (I'm not married, btw).

quote:

2. or inspired by pornography or other sexual imagery


False. I do not look at pornography.

quote:

3. wishing we could be in adultery or fornication with a woman or women.


Absolutely false.

I receive no small amount of female attention, and could fornicate with a good number of beautiful women; as it is, I remain a 31-year-old virgin because I love the Lord and seek His will, and have, by His grace and strength alone, all glory to God, been able to stand firm in this conviction. How dare you accuse the heart of one you don't even know.

I masturbate because my body signals to me that it wants to release some built-up semen. What reason do I have to lie to a bunch of strangers online, to volunteer false information about myself to people to whom I have absolutely nothing to prove? If you can't masturbate without lusting after women, don't assume I share your weakness. You can choose to call me a liar if you wish--it doesn't change the truth. I love my Lord, and He knows my heart.

It would almost seem to me that some people find it unbearable to their spiritual self-esteem to realize not everyone shares the sins that they so painfully struggle with (God knows I have my struggles), so they cast accusations and assume the worst of others in order to alleviate their own guilt.

I ask your forgiveness if my post seems graceless, but I feel I've all but been called a liar to my face, and laden with completely false accusations, and I find it pretty nauseating

Romans 14:4: Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

I answer to my Master alone. Mind your own "sin."



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